[cloud recluse]

cat, on Jun 19 2006, 07:07 PM, said:

cloud... I admire your stance. I heard it, after a while, in what you were saying and I went to sleep since I last posted and I woke up with a revived sense of 'once more into the fray, dear friend'... a happiness to be in the game.
So thanks for that.

I so agree that 'full contact is an inspiration'. It's Eros - it's what gets the juices of life flowing.Without it we are poor dry things.

And once you know - I mean REALLY know, like a trickled - through your whole self knowing, not a cerebral knowing - about transience and samsara, that full contact has a different quality. Is it 'detachment' or something else more poignant, that I dont know the word for. Acceptance of Mortality, maybe is all it is.

or something. sort of thing.

Thak you for your patience Cat.I really was using strong language in my initial posts & perhaps that was a bit counterproductive
but I am actually starting to think that a lot of the conventional terminology used in western spiritual circles could be a bit outworn.I really would like to reinstate Desire as a spiritual virtue,and clean out a lot of the "life is sin" language that haunts our attempts to come to grips with Yogic traditions.

So,in case anybody hasnt guessed,the term "Detachment" is a bit of a bugbear for me.But going off about it seems to be triggering the right kind of debate,so Im sticking to my guns for now

Regards,Cloud.

This post has been edited by cloud recluse: 19 June 2006 - 05:22 AM

[freeform]

This whole attachment/detachment business works a little differently in my mind.

I think of it in terms of stimulus->response... detachment, free will, True Will, your centre, your core channel, effortless action lies right in between stimulus->response.

Most people work in terms of stimulus->response, some of them achieve great things... just as a spider weaves a beautiful web... But as humans we have the ability to be the stimulus and to be the response and to be neither at the same time. Rather than re-acting, the wise-person just acts! It's spontaneous, has no mental 'logic' to it... you just know.

What's the difference between the wise-person and an automaton... An automaton sees an attractive person (stimulus) and responds by either getting shy and coy, or checking them out, or getting jelous, or chatting them up, or falling into deep lust... it all depends on how hir wiring allows hir to respond.

The wise-person does not have a stimulus and does not respond... The wise person just 'lets things happen' (sounds pretty rediculous to us automatons!) - but s/he is not guided by hir instinct, by hir judgement, by logic... the wise person is out of 'control' - whatever happens happens - it's like s/he is a spinning-top spinning uncontrolably from hir central channel... which leads hir to the space and time that is required for hir and sucks towards hir the people and resources that are appropriate (no idea what this really means ). The wise person feels desire when appropriate, feels anger when appropriate, feels everything and anything that is appropriate and feels it to the full. And that is scary...

To relinquish all control is beyond frightning... it feels like dying, for you're relinquishing control over your life and death... you can't seek comfort and safety, you cant seek love and relationships and you cant seek non-seeking... you just have to let go of all the reigns you've establised over your life and let the horses of your central channel, true will, free will etc run wild. Ofcourse they say that once you do, you realise you never had control in the first place... feeling safe and comfortable is just a feeling and not reality... feeling love and lust is just a response. But it's fucking hard! all those painfull wounds are gonna be uncovered, all that fear and trapped emotion is gonna burst out and your ego will try to find any way it can to get its control back... even if it means making the 'act of losing control' an act of ego.

Sometimes it seems that there are two ways of gaining this freedom... one way is embracing all of everything - all your desires, all your illusions, all your fixations and all your fear. And the other way is to deny all of this. Which is the right way of going about it? who knows? Which way am I going? I have no idea - I'm completely confused... and I hope you are too... because that's a good sign!

[Callan]

Quote

Too bloody right !! biggrin.gif biggrin.gif

The thing I really dig about Odiers little book is that it trounces this morbid "detachment ' thing! Fuck,what are people so FUCKING SCARED OF!!!! I think if you edited all the Eastern texts & replaced the word "Attachment" with the term "Compulsion",all the obedient little seekers wouldnt spend so much time being terrified of involvement with life!!! Compulsion is a stupid spasm that sends you on a futile quest to get what you allready have by looking somewhere else.STUPID! And very,very embarrising.
But life itself IS NOT the problem!! And the only time you wont be attached to that is when your dead!! Can you stop breathing,"watch" the desire to breath."spiritually' deny that dirty involvement,& calmly die! If you did,all it proves is that youve misused yoga to be a suicidal dimwit!!

For ALL of your life,you will be a living,pulsing ball of need & passion,NO EXCEPTIONS,and that is the whole point,TO MANIFEST,to honour the Dao.Its only when you smear all this glory with neurotic compulsion,turn the whole gorgeous display into a fear trip,that it fucks up,twists it.

So could everbody stop crapping on about detachment,and fantasising about becoming a super-seperate ultra-independent unit & just admit theyre SCARED !!ENLIGHTENMENT IS NOT ISOLATION OR IMMUNITY FROM FEELING,no matter how attractive & reassuring that goal is to the Ego!!!This fantasised independence is just COWARDICE,not "warriorship" or "transcendance"!!




I could hardly disagree more.

Point one: Detachment has nothing to do with separation. In fact the more detached you are the more you experience yourself as part of everything.

Two: in order to practice detachment properly you have to face and overcome a great deal of fear.

Three: the only difference between attachment and compulsion, as you define them above, is that compulsion is the attachment you've already noticed.

Four: you don't know that the whole point is to manifest and honour the tao. You don't know that. You don't even know if there is a"whole point". How could you? Admit it, it's an opinion.

Seems to me this is more of a terminology thing. The trick for me is to connect deeper and deeper internally. This involves detaching from things that prop me up in the external world but it certainly doesn't mean being detached in the emotional sense. Maybe this is where the confusion comes in.
I agree with cloud that this involves living as much as we can without our protections and really experiencing everything intensely : just not getting stuck in it - whatever it might be.

As for desire - I know if I desire something outside of myself then I'm splitting myself in two and it hurts. The only way I know at the moment to counteract this is to be grateful for whatever is happening to me at the time - no matter what it is. I still want things and ask for things just don't get caught up too much on whether I get them or not, or how I get them.

I loved that rant. There is a lot of bullshit around that has been misquoted or misinterpreted or was just plain crap to start with. Maybe we need some new ways to describe some of this stuff.

[Ian]

cat, on Jun 19 2006, 10:34 AM, said:

Ian, how about explaining Point One a bit. Pleez.

Only for you.


What really stops us from experiencing ourselves as part of the big picture, aligned with big mind, a cell in the body of life?

The belief that stuff we think is experienced within our skin bag is different, separate or more important than stuff outside it. The idea that there's a boundary there.

Even in my very limited experience detachment requires an open, expansive, presence which takes in more, not less of what is actually happening, just doesn't call it me.

So to be truly detached from something you gotta be right up in its face. But not savouring your passion, emotion, reactions, and thinking OOH, it's so real it must be valid. That's just an excuse for not even bothering to try and do the job. That's the tricky mind saying it's ok, you don't even need to start, the premise is invalid.

Spiritual practice is DIFFICULT. You have to die to yourself. Lots of other things get lumped in and filed under general weirdness, and people assume they are a kind of spiritual practice. But they ain't. Spiritual practice is a form of suicide. You get it all back, if you succeed, but by then you don't care. But you gotta gotta gotta be prepared to give it all up.

Cloud - will you give up the joy of argument?
Sean - will you give up the joy or research and analysis?
Ian - will you give up trying to be right?

Will you give up being yourself? Will you go right out on a limb and have no idea what to do next because you don't know who you are? Will you endure that uncertainty for decades if necessary, years of apparent pointlessness, because you love God/tao/love, whatever you call it, so much?

Maybe neimad will.

How's that, Cat? Can I go now?

[karen]

Hi Ian,

If you haven't gone yet.. this might just be OH so much fun ...

Re. spiritual practice being difficult. I wonder.. how do you know that spiritual practice is difficult? I don't mean that rhetorically, but I think it's a really interesting question. Also with anything I think is difficult, I always find it interesting to explore what my actual experience is, that I've labelled "difficult."

Not to analyze why I think it's difficult, but to explore the experience and see what it really is. Exactly how is it difficult, and what do I experience, not why.

Not to describe it to me or anyone else (unless you feel like it), but just to see how the question takes you out of the trance of the word difficult and into pure experience.

Hope you're having fun

Karen

[cat]

Thanks Ian, yes, I gotcha from your explanation.

The Point One sentence was to me like one of those gestalt pictures that sometimes you see and then you dont. It maketh my head hurt.

But yes, zut alors! It is that the less ego and commentating consciousness is taking up space, the more present one can be.


It reminds me of the Paradise Lost thing that one cannot be truly good without kowing evil.


you may go now Ian, and relieve yourself in the lavatory and have a small glass of tepid water and a dry biscuit.


dont say I never give you nuthin.


I like Karen's point - why not re- frame it all as easy? Ha! As easy as falling off a log. It's liberating to run an opposite script sometimes.

[karen]

Opposite script, if you like. Reframe it as easy if you like. OR.. just be aware of experience and you may find yourself pleasantly, and maybe surprisingly, not interested in thoughts of easy or difficult. Or you might find those thoughts interesting in a whole different way.

I've done this while engaged in what I call "extreme sports" of life so I think it's well field tested for rigorous conditions.

At least you could substitute the word "hard" for difficult, and see if that's any more interesting!

Karen

[cat]

karen, on Jun 19 2006, 09:16 PM, said:

At least you could substitute the word "hard" for difficult, and see if that's any more interesting!

Karen

Trying substituting the word 'difficult' for 'hard', in a sexual context, would be quite interesting, too.

[karen]

cat, on Jun 19 2006, 05:22 PM, said:

Trying substituting the word 'difficult' for 'hard', in a sexual context, would be quite interesting, too.

I knew I didn't need to spell things out, especially for the highly creative minds here

But it's fun to spell out. How about associating "hard" with a sexual context, and then use that in another context when something is (unpleasantly) hard or difficult. How about associating having your mouth open with a sexual context, then take that context to the dentist when you're experiencing something unpleasant. Whoa. Then of course vice-versa. Those anchors are fun to mess around with.

You start noticing how fluid experience is, underneath the anchors, and then you notice that you have an anchor for swimming

Karen

[sean]

Ian, it sounds like you are going down a very very specific style of path ... reminds me of the Catholicism in which I was raised, particularly St. John of the Cross who I admire. I sincerely hope it's working for you.

And also from my vantage point I can't help but suggest that you seem a bit entranced by what appear to be almost morbid and anti-natural aspects of your perceptions of the path. The perceptions themselves are accurate as a perspective, but is this perspective held with other equally valid perspectives?

IMHO enlightenment can be seen to be a very natural process. Like the unfolding of a flower. There is pain. There is loss. And there is also great pleasure and great beauty. We do the best we can to cultivate, watering and giving nutrient to our soil, pulling out weeds, transplating ourselves to more appropriate environments. We learn from teachers wiser than us, but ultimately it's all a very ordinary, very natural process we would eventually discover without exposure to formal, human dharma. The teaching is reflected in and through all of nature. It's not a club we can join if we are austere enough, it's a club we already intimately are and can't get out of.

My question is, are you entangling a personal tendency toward melancholy into a projection of what you objectively believe an enlightened path must be for yourself and everyone else?

What happened to just be happy? Is that only your animal nature speaking? Arf! ArfArfArf!

Sincerely,
Sean

[neimad]

Ian, on Jun 20 2006, 02:49 AM, said:

Cloud - will you give up the joy of argument?
Sean - will you give up the joy or research and analysis?
Ian - will you give up trying to be right?

neimad - will you give up being a raving lunatic?


hahahaha.
well actually, the lunatic part is new.... but i always was raving.


ian you got something with that post above, for sure.

everyone heed ian's words:

IT'S HARD HARD HARD HARD WORK!!!!!!!!!!

we have to work hard, we have to suffer, we have to die, we have to destroy every single part of us that we hold dear and we have to obliterate our attachment to everything we loved.

the language doesn't necessarily have to be so violent to explain the process but that's the only way it can be done as far as i can see.
but not to fear because as far as i can see that by doing these processes we will get to experience REAL love, and our relationship to everything can only get better.

karma yoga.

why do you think all the stories of enlightened masters they went through so much incredible hardship.

what about milarepa? marpa broke him down so ridiculously.......

of course, the stronger our attachment (desire, etc) the harder it's gonna be and the harder we have to work (relation to karma?).


i accept now that's it gonna be hard, so bloody hard. there is no easy way, there is no magic pill..... and if someone is trying to sell you one - they are an agent of the matrix! be wary!

but once you make the choice.... there is no other option but to do the hard work. do the hard work with your body, do the hard work with your brain, do the hard work with your spirit.

god doesn't accept the weak so if you aren't prepared to commit your entire existance, to give everything away..... then you might as well give up now because you aint gonna get anywhere and it would save you a lot of anguish to not think about it anymore.



of course my bum is just doing all the talking here, as usual

sean, on Jun 20 2006, 09:06 AM, said:

IMHO enlightenment can be seen to be a very natural process. Like the unfolding of a flower. There is pain. There is loss. And there is also great pleasure and great beauty.

i like the analogy of the caterpillar putrifying in the chrysalis (matrix) to eventually become a butterfly better.


but if you truly think it's going to unfold nice and smoothly.... easily and then just be done.... c'mon sean, you gotta be fooling yourself.


it's true there is pain and loss that results in great pleasure and beauty (infinite love).

but we gotta wade through a whole lot of pain, loss and intense fear. yes, it's intense as anything could ever possibly be.....


i've come close to something a couple of times in the past two weeks and i was so fucking scared, more than i have ever been about anything, ever.

it's so frightening to look at the chasm and realise that if you jump you will NEVER be the same again. that who you think you are has to die.

and it has to die. the caterpillar MUST die to create the butterfly.

[freeform]

neimad, on Jun 20 2006, 12:19 AM, said:

IT'S HARD HARD HARD HARD WORK!!!!!!!!!!

we have to work hard, we have to suffer, we have to die, we have to destroy every single part of us that we hold dear and we have to obliterate our attachment to everything we loved.

IT'S FUN FUN FUN FUN PLAY!!!!!!!!

we have to play and have fun, we have to enjoy life, we have to live, we have to appreciate every single part of us that we hold dear and we have to embrace our attachment to everything we love.



Somewhere in between these two extremes there is truth... I dont know where...

Fun involves a bit of fear and confusion... fear and confusion can either be something you have to slay, or something you have to play!

Fear and confusion are just words ofcourse... when I feel both of them in my body, there is this subtle presence that I feel... forget the labels just feel the feelings... if you label them they either become empowering or disempowering... either way thay're props on the stage of life... but forgeting labels lets it be what it is, and flow the way it has to flow.... without ego without grasping without unconcious labeling.

[cloud recluse]

Ian, on Jun 20 2006, 02:49 AM, said:

Only for you.
What really stops us from experiencing ourselves as part of the big picture, aligned with big mind, a cell in the body of life?

The belief that stuff we think is experienced within our skin bag is different, separate or more important than stuff outside it. The idea that there's a boundary there.

Even in my very limited experience detachment requires an open, expansive, presence which takes in more, not less of what is actually happening, just doesn't call it me.

So to be truly detached from something you gotta be right up in its face. But not savouring your passion, emotion, reactions, and thinking OOH, it's so real it must be valid. That's just an excuse for not even bothering to try and do the job. That's the tricky mind saying it's ok, you don't even need to start, the premise is invalid.

Spiritual practice is DIFFICULT. You have to die to yourself. Lots of other things get lumped in and filed under general weirdness, and people assume they are a kind of spiritual practice. But they ain't. Spiritual practice is a form of suicide. You get it all back, if you succeed, but by then you don't care. But you gotta gotta gotta be prepared to give it all up.
..........

Ok Ian,I agree with the essence of your first 2 points,though Im not sure about the 3rd yet.But one thing I dont agree with,if I read you rightly,is the overall theme I get from your language( no,theres no sign of me giving up argument yet).It seems like you have a huge attachment to the image of The Struggling Seeker,very Judeo-Christian.You seem to be hooked around a "You" that will do a lot of renunciation in order to "get" Enlightenment,while at the same time advocating the Full Contact that Im on about.I suspect your carrying some baggage there man.

Full Contact will remove all your baggage in its own good time,you cant "Push the River" as I think they say in Zen.In fact its allready removing your baggage,you just have to drop resistance to it.This is where the discipline comes in,the discipline to stay open in the face of fear.

But its as easy as it is hard,& this is what you mightnt like about what Im saying.As far as I can tell ,you only want it to be hard,you dont want it to be easy.Perhaps that reeks of sin to you,or lacks the necessary punitive imagery to assauge some kind of guilt you feel,I dunno.

I go totally with Adyashanti on this.If your a hard nut to crack,addicted to strenous self-effort,it will be "Hard",& you wouldnt have it any other way.You have to be broken in order to get anywhere.But why be broken?

Its like Meditation,its only "Hard" when you struggle with it.When you release into the process,the 'fuel' for your 'effort' becomes so readily abundant,its no longer an effort.The Dao is superabundant & overflowing.Look at the whole cosmos its allready brought forth in gorgeous,wasteful display.

Stop obsessing about self destruction as a goal in itself & get into the Flow.They you will outgrow your illusions in their own good time.And dont worry,this still 'needs" effort & self-discipline to accept whats coming,but it mightnt be the hardship & struggle your ego may desperately want it to be.

If Im misrepresenting you I do apologize,and I believe you are sincere in what you say,but is it not possible that if you drop the Struggling Seeker bit you will just Fall Awake in your own good time (Another Adya-ism there).Ive allready done the "I will force myself Awake through personal effort" trip.Its crap!!! It leads nowhere,only to morbid self-obsession.Thats why I go with the Dao instead.

Stay alert,but dont Struggle.

Regards,Cloud.

This post has been edited by cloud recluse: 19 June 2006 - 05:38 PM

[neimad]

we can either work hard to make it easy.

or we can work easy and make it hard.


thinking it's just going to be an easy walk in the park is a ridiculous concept.

one can change their attitude to the hard work (in fact one must if they are going to get out of it without a few trips to the psych ward) and do the service with love and enjoy it.... but it don't change the fact that it's gonna be HARD!!!

vigiliance, determination, discipline.... and above all... impeccability.


i am pretty certain that anyone who thinks they are going to have a nice easy time and unfold gently and beautifully like a flower without putting in the effort, time and hard work i am sure will be in for a very rude shock when they reach the point of death (of the ego). that's an unfathomable chasm and there will come a point when one has to jump. to not jump is to remain a humaton and die without ever building up the soul (immortal body to use taoist terminology) to continue on the spiral whilst keeping a personal sense (although ultimately that'll have to go too).

not that i'm saying anyone here isn't putting in the hard work.... sitting down to do practices every day is hard work. doing the research and contemplating/reflecting upon who you are is intensley hard work.... and it's all necessary.

there is no time to pussyfoot around.... but everything in it's due course.

make haste slowly.

[Cameron]

From my understanding both of these appraches are represented in the Zen school. Soto Zen, which is centered around the practice of shikan taza, is like a farmer gently growing his food. He takes care of the process and has faith it will develop naturally.

The Rinzai school is more represented in the extreme and even violent stories of enlightenment you here about. A teacher breaking his students arm and they wake up or something. This is described as a General(warrior) bravely and strongly facing the army(ego). Like more of a struggle or battle is involved.

I'll be interested in hering Adya's views of enlightenment this weekend. Interestingly, the aikido teacher I want to study with is very into zen and obviously I would describe him as a kind of modern samurai. Or as close to a samurai as your going to find these days.

Cam

[cloud recluse]

neimad, on Jun 20 2006, 10:52 AM, said:

we can either work hard to make it easy.

or we can work easy and make it hard.
thinking it's just going to be an easy walk in the park is a ridiculous concept.

one can change their attitude to the hard work (in fact one must if they are going to get out of it without a few trips to the psych ward) and do the service with love and enjoy it.... but it don't change the fact that it's gonna be HARD!!!

vigiliance, determination, discipline.... and above all... impeccability...

there is no time to pussyfoot around.... but everything in it's due course.

make haste slowly.

Id half agree with you here,except Id say that anyone who predicts it either way, easy or hard ,is being ridiculous by virtue of thinking they can predict it.Certainly impeccability is required,but so is ease.BOTH OF EM!!!!

Anybody who thinks Waking Up is going to be a Hard Struggle will also be in for a very relieving shock when they are thrown headlong into death,without any need to jump,and discover the obsessive control trip theyve been on all their lives creates so much screaming resistance that their psyche shatters and reality just floods in(as its always trying to do).

Impeccability is effort when its driven by a morbid fear of death.If your yogas are exhausting instead of enlivening,look to your own tendencies of self hatred.Do you want to immolate the person you are,do you eagerly anticipate being someone else.are you desperate to dehumanise yourself?

once again,what are you scared of?That the Archons/Matrix is bigger than the Dao?piss on the Archons,laugh at them,the Matrix is feeble!! Do it with skill by all means,I AM NOT ADVOCATING PASSIVITY,but dont burden yourself with images & predictions of drastic transformations & self erasure.Castaneda invented that stuff coz he was neurotic,hating & fearing himself & tried to turn his social alienation into a virtue.

You dont know when it will be Hard or Easy until each stage comes around.Impeccable.Yes.Puritanical,No.If you hate yourself,you block access to the very material you need to work with to wake up.Self hate & a desperation to disapear are of no use to the Warrior.Power outshines contempt (be it contempt for self or others).Contempt doesnt generate Power.

Stay alert,Dont Struggle.

Regards,Cloud.

[neimad]

since you seemed to be talking to me, i'll reply to it from myself.


i don't hate myself, i don't even hate who i was.... i can use terms like "pathetic" and "pitiful" about myself but it doesn't mean i hate myself, i understand that the state of being pathetic and pitiful... the whole process that took me to develop that was learning in itself.

i see to develop the power is to go back and understand the exact process and development of that persona (act) that i now see as pathetic. to love the processes that influenced me to be where i am going back through the processes and releasing their binding limitations on my very being.


i don't think castaneda invented anything. the system he outlined is desribed again and again throughout all of true spiritual paths.

recapitulation - going back and discovering all the lessons we missed and learning from them now (erasing personal history).
stalking - discovering all our routines and habits, the way our thoughts work and catching it... thus mastering our own process.
dreaming - the generation of the 'double' (in taoism called the "immortal body" also could be considered soul, energy body, astral body, blah blah blah) and using that to experience existance outside of this particular matrix.
using death as an advisor - not a morbid infatuation with death but merely the recognition that ONE WILL DIE! it's not some distant event occurring to someon else... it's very real and it's always at our shoulder. death cannot be ignored and becoming aware of it is the most powerful motivating factor that exists.
and so on.....


i am using violent language because i find it funny to do so, and i've had a go of all the lovey dovey stuff. but it's the same thing.

neither passive nor struggling.
i say "hard work" but thats not really an appropriate description..... it's not about struggling but it's about determination, discipline and vigilance.

there is no self-hate and there is no desperation to dissapear. there is no desire to change who i am.... just a path and a purpose and no other choice left but to walk it even though it's all utterly useless.




but we are all here and we do all WANT SOMETHING TO HAPPEN. i hear people sometimes say "there is no need to change because you are already perfect" or some other such nonsense.... and if that's truly the case then why fucking bother doing any spiritual practice? why bother questioning existance? what's the point of it all other than to change/grow/develop/evolve? sure enough once you've done all that we will probably be able to say "aha now i realise i was that way all along, but i just had to realise it"

YEAH.... HAD TO REALISE IT!

that's what it is, and it requires the work to be done. simple. and most of the people are doing the work.... probably even you, cloud, are doing the work.

sean... despite all his lovely flower analogies and so forth, works bloody hard! hours of meditation a day, yoga, looking after health, reading and researching....... that's HARD WORK!!! to achieve whatever the hell it is we are trying to get to, we gotta put in the work. and the work = effort (to some degree) we spent so long building up limitations, traumas, karma, blah blah blah that the work is removing that to get back to our natural state of wu-wei, effortlessness, whatever.

[thelerner]

Eh, I expect Sean doesn't work hard at this stuff, he plays hard at it. He enjoys the stuff, practice for the fun of practice (uh right Sean?).

You have to enjoy the process. Working on the edge might be uncomfortable, a few minutes more, staying w/ discomfort, mental, emotional a few minutes more, but then you let it go. Release .

We can't be afraid of enjoying life. IMHO desire is great, but don't be too attached to it. My attitude is "It would be nice, but if not, fine" Let the universe decide. The most Skillful Means, is turning practice into a game. These days I have a mantra, "Something wonderful is about to happen, watch watch watch".


Michael

[cloud recluse]

Well in that case Neimad I pretty much agree with you,though I wasnt actually"targeting" you personally there.As Ive said in previous posts,its more a certain kind of language that I find loaded with ascetic assumptions.Im pretty much writing this stuff in the heat of the moment,I normally sort through the fallout later at leisure.

I still think Castanedas presentation of these ideas is smeared with his own neurosis.Seriously,do a bit of research on the man himself ( if youe inclined),its quite eye opening.

Actually,out of general interest,did you arrive at Castaneda independently,or was it through Jake Horselys stuff?

One thing I disagree with is the image of the Path being "useless" .The overwhelming Mystery of things certainly outstrips our ability to predict consequences & solidify our explanations,but is it useless,or Unfathomable instead?Either way,your still left with the warriors impeccability if you want to wake up,but "useless' smacks of a certain Nihilism.I think "unpredictable" has the same use but without the potential negativity.Whadya reckon ?

Regards,Cloud.

thelerner, on Jun 20 2006, 12:37 PM, said:

Eh, I expect Sean doesn't work hard at this stuff, he plays hard at it. He enjoys the stuff, practice for the fun of practice (uh right Sean?).

You have to enjoy the process. Working on the edge might be uncomfortable, a few minutes more, staying w/ discomfort, mental, emotional a few minutes more, but then you let it go. Release .

We can't be afraid of enjoying life. IMHO desire is great, but don't be too attached to it. My attitude is "It would be nice, but if not, fine" Let the universe decide. The most Skillful Means, is turning practice into a game. These days I have a mantra, "Something wonderful is about to happen, watch watch watch".
Michael

Yes,Yes,Yes !!! THANKYOU. Ok,its time to hear from the Man himself.Sean,your definetely a more experienced player than me,what do you think of these analasyis of your perspective? Lets hear it Big Boy!

[neimad]

thelerner, on Jun 20 2006, 12:37 PM, said:

Eh, I expect Sean doesn't work hard at this stuff, he plays hard at it. He enjoys the stuff, practice for the fun of practice (uh right Sean?).

You have to enjoy the process. Working on the edge might be uncomfortable, a few minutes more, staying w/ discomfort, mental, emotional a few minutes more, but then you let it go. Release .

We can't be afraid of enjoying life. IMHO desire is great, but don't be too attached to it. My attitude is "It would be nice, but if not, fine" Let the universe decide. The most Skillful Means, is turning practice into a game. These days I have a mantra, "Something wonderful is about to happen, watch watch watch".
Michael

i get it that it has to be enjoyable. as i said, somewhere, you either learn to laugh (enjoy the work) or end up with a few trips to the psych ward (or end up killing yourself or dosing yourself senseless with drugs, alcohol, television, etc....).

it's not that i'm saying you cant play and have fun and enjoy it all...... but it's hard work!

chopping wood can be immensley enjoyable, if you act in it... but it's still hard work!

i only use hard work for want of anything better to say, but we have all these preconceived ideas that hard work = struggle.

noone ever got anywhere by doing nothing. but those who work hard and can laugh and smile.... always succeed.

it would be a rough journey down the river for one of those water particles.... bumping around corners, hitting rocks and so on.... but the little water particle just goes along with it all for the ride, even though it's a tough one he recognises he can't do anything else but just go with it.

ahhhhhh i dunno.

cloud recluse, on Jun 20 2006, 12:43 PM, said:

I still think Castanedas presentation of these ideas is smeared with his own neurosis.Seriously,do a bit of research on the man himself ( if youe inclined),its quite eye opening.

it doesn't bother me what history says about castaneda. i was never really interested in castaneda himself, rather don juan (or the persona of carlos that was don juan.... or whatever!) and the underlying theme throughout the books of the warriors path. i read them all twice and filed the relevant information away somewhere knowing it was useful but not quite how to apply it.

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Actually,out of general interest,did you arrive at Castaneda independently,or was it through Jake Horselys stuff?

castaneda independantly. then jake comes along who has gone to all the effort of taking those core warrior teachings and putting it so succinctly. suddenly, with extra teachings from a few other people for other explinations, i am beginning to understand how to apply it all to my life. i can see the general theme.... and having just read jake's reiteration of it, i'm using the language because it's the most fun lingo to me... it's kinda mysterious and sounds cool.

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One thing I disagree with is the image of the Path being "useless" .The overwhelming Mystery of things certainly outstrips our ability to predict consequences & solidify our explanations,but is it useless,or Unfathomable instead?Either way,your still left with the warriors impeccability if you want to wake up,but "useless' smacks of a certain Nihilism.I think "unpredictable" has the same use but without the potential negativity.Whadya reckon ?

unfathomable is much nicer, yes but gives the impression that we don't know it's all a game... when we do (even if we pretend we don't)! when i speak of useless it's not in a negative way but rather i'm just astounded that it's all a game and the end of the game is what we are working towards with this spiritual quest. the end of the game (the big one, not just our little microcosmic versions of it) is the end of it all (just like the end of our human games = the end of the matrix for us). when i begin to look upon that i cannot help but laugh out of the sheer absurdity of it all.

what a massive giant joke!

This post has been edited by neimad: 19 June 2006 - 07:58 PM