[...]

Ah jeez, man, thanks. I am sorry =( I guess a certain sensitive cord was struck, there, that was all.

[thaddeus]

seandenty, on Sep 27 2006, 02:03 PM, said:

I'm here because I wanted to reach out to people like you who really care about these matters and offer an opportunity that I was given. I think your life is valuable and don't want you to get hurt. The truth is, Kostas became the victim of his own ambitions to master the practice and his neikung career is over because of it. John Dijang warned him to stop the practice, but he didn't listen and he almost died. Because of the nature of his illness, he can never progress in the practice. You see the blessing is real and once John took it away, well who really knows what could happen. I don’t personally know if Kostas’s condition was related to practice, it’s only what I’ve been told, but I’d rather be safe than sorry since that’s what has been suggested.

There's a saying, when you meet a master swordsman, show him your sword. Now we're not all masters here but we are all into this stuff far more than your random person off the street. So we just want to hear some meat. My issue with the Kostas books and all the posts is that there is alot of bashing, but no meat. Not even any preliminary practice that would ring true as 'yeah, we need to pursue this more, there's something here'. I couldn't care less about fireballs and walking through walls. If you got something, we're all willing..more than willing to be open to it. But it's been a couple days now of carrot dangling...
just my two cents.
T

[seandenty]

thaddeus, on Sep 27 2006, 11:46 AM, said:

There's a saying, when you meet a master swordsman, show him your sword. Now we're not all masters here but we are all into this stuff far more than your random person off the street. So we just want to hear some meat. My issue with the Kostas books and all the posts is that there is alot of bashing, but no meat. Not even any preliminary practice that would ring true as 'yeah, we need to pursue this more, there's something here'. I couldn't care less about fireballs and walking through walls. If you got something, we're all willing..more than willing to be open to it. But it's been a couple days now of carrot dangling...
just my two cents.
T

Sorry, I just want to be clear. What exactly do mean by meat?

[thaddeus]

seandenty, on Sep 27 2006, 04:13 PM, said:

Sorry, I just want to be clear. What exactly do mean by meat?

Lol..exactly my point..some concrete details of a technique and where it may lead to...example: I was shown a breathing/relaxation technique by a respected taiji master. Pretty simple to follow instructions and then he went on to explain exactly what I would be feeling if I was doing the exercise correctly. He then showed me how to apply the breathing technique in my form and in my applications. If I described in more detail, that would be some meat.
Some meat would be, for example, koichi tohei's ki breathing exercise or any number of the techniques that are discussed here and people try out.
Outline the basic beginning practice so we can see what you're talking about. We've been exposed to so many different approaches, it would be amazing if what you're doing is significantly different than anything we've seen. For example, the Patanjali's Yoga Sutra's are a pretty detailed roadmap to these siddhi powers. There are no secrets there. But can anyone get past citta vittri nirodha? I can't get past this first step. But it's all there, laid out. No insincere person has the balls or the guts to follow that path. There shouldn't be any fear of 'the secrets' getting in the wrong hands in that method.
So I (we) just want to see your sword..that's all..
I hope i'm not coming off obnoxious, i feel safe speaking like this because I know you understand the frustration first hand, based on your posts.
Thanks,
T

[seandenty]

thaddeus, on Sep 27 2006, 02:15 PM, said:

Lol..exactly my point..some concrete details of a technique and where it may lead to...example: I was shown a breathing/relaxation technique by a respected taiji master. Pretty simple to follow instructions and then he went on to explain exactly what I would be feeling if I was doing the exercise correctly. He then showed me how to apply the breathing technique in my form and in my applications. If I described in more detail, that would be some meat.
Some meat would be, for example, koichi tohei's ki breathing exercise or any number of the techniques that are discussed here and people try out.
Outline the basic beginning practice so we can see what you're talking about. We've been exposed to so many different approaches, it would be amazing if what you're doing is significantly different than anything we've seen. For example, the Patanjali's Yoga Sutra's are a pretty detailed roadmap to these siddhi powers. There are no secrets there. But can anyone get past citta vittri nirodha? I can't get past this first step. But it's all there, laid out. No insincere person has the balls or the guts to follow that path. There shouldn't be any fear of 'the secrets' getting in the wrong hands in that method.
So I (we) just want to see your sword..that's all..
I hope i'm not coming off obnoxious, i feel safe speaking like this because I know you understand the frustration first hand, based on your posts.
Thanks,
T

Dear Thaddeus,

You've just pointed out the number one, problem between east and west. Most westerners operate under the assumption, my self included in the past, that information like this is just out there for the taking and we have a right to know it. It’s a problem. Our sense of entitlement and tremendous ego, are totally foreign to the average Chinese. Their concept of reality is not only totally different from ours; it’s often opposed to it. This is something I am still learning about.

Still to this day, people routinely seek out John Dijang and demand to know the secrets of level four or start telling people in the community how things should be done. The Chinese are very polite and kind, but very happy when us westerners go home.

So, why all the secrecy? It's the master’s obligation to test the student and find out if he or she is really ready. I went though a great deal of sacrifice and sweat just to be able to meet these masters and I can definitely say these practices are extremely rare to come by and are not taught openly or to the public for a reason. The power and potential for misuse is tremendous. For the student also, there are risks. There’s a great deal that has to happen before your body is even ready to undergo the most basic levels of the practice and the careful assistance of the master is required. The relationship between master and students is deeper in many ways than a marriage. Before these practices are taught, there has to be love and trust and a deep commitment on both sides. When the master accepts you as a student, he accepts responsibility for your life and you become family. This is not something to be shared via email with complete strangers.

I’m not permitted, inclined, qualified or authorized to share any of the practices I speak of. If that means you’re moving on, that’s fine. The masters I speak of are not simple peasants who rolled off the turnip cart this morning; they are leaders in their communities and often work with governments and heads of state on an intimate basis. When they share a teaching, it’s a great gift because they give their heart, time and life to the student. I hope that those interested realize what’s being offered here. My teacher is interested in sincere students, people who have a true love for the Dao in their heart and are willing to go through some fire and make sacrifices to the practice.

In a short while, I will pass the requests of those here who have expressed an interest to David. At that time those individuals will have an opportunity to speak with David and ask more in depth questions than I can give answers to. All of you are welcome to participate. This is an exciting time in history. For perhaps the first time, a westerner has been accepted as family by a living Daoist lineage. For what reason, I can only speculate, but my hope is that it’s to spread the practice that leads to tangible achievements; the achievements we all dream of and hope for: enlightenment, immortality and real peace.

For those of you who have contacted me already, please be patient. This is a process that is unfolding and over which I have no control. I’m simply the messenger.

Sincerely, Sean

[thaddeus]

seandenty, on Sep 27 2006, 07:08 PM, said:

I’m not permitted, inclined, qualified or authorized to share any of the practices I speak of.

Sincerely, Sean

C'mon, then why did you start this thread...i want my popcorn money back...this whole thing smacks of bs..good luck gathering followers.
Regards,
T

[seandenty]

Dear All,

It seems the timing it right; right now that is. I think we’ve come to a good stopping point. You all have my respect and I’m pleased with the general common courtesy and level of respect shown by the members here. I told David you were a good group and you didn’t let me down. So, as promised, I will share a taste of my experience.

If you do have an interest in learning these arts, I would invite you to email me personally. Please send me an email even if you have already contacted me; in the subject line of your email just write “FOUNDATION” in caps. In the email please write your full name and nothing more. Please, no further comments or questions; save those for David. You will have plenty of opportunities to ask David deeper questions than I can give answer to. One caution, David is not interested in humoring idle curiousity; think seriously about wether you are truly interested to learn more about this training before you email me. Are you really ready to change your life style at this time? If not, then please don't waste your time. Here’s my email: seandenty@hotmail.com Please don't PM me. You need to use my direct email as I won't be checking back to the forum any time soon unless David asks me to.

What follows is a personal account of my recent trip to Asia that I shared with some fellow students. This particular letter focuses in on my experience with two masters I met who are in the Lei Shan Dao, thunder path lineage. Like John Chang or Dijang, whichever you prefer, they displayed abilities beyond the scope of mainstream reality, including telekinesis, pyrogenesis, alteration of fluids and matter (alchemy), manifestation of spiritual light and sounds and other incredible things. They are both amazing people too. Please note that I hold both these men in the highest esteem and personal attacks would be very hurtful. It’s easy to say hurtful things when you’re looking in from the outside, but both these men deserve your respect even if you are only reading about them.

To protect their privacy, I have not used there actual names.

Sherfu J, the master that recently accepted David as a family student, has trained over thirty students to the so called level four and above. Apparently this is usually accomplished in only a few years with the training that he gives. When you compare that to the fact that the head of Mo Pai, John Chang has brought no students to this level in thirty years, it’s easy to see that the Mo Pai system is a much more raw and unrefined technique. Despite Sherfu Chang’s immense power, he is one of the highest masters of the Lei Shan Dao alive; he hasn’t been successful in his teaching, in part because he never intended to do so. In all this time, he has only truly accepted two students as real family, both Chinese.

The practice David teaches is the same one taught by Wang Li Ping. It’s also used as a foundation practice for the Lei Shan Dao and has been taught in its current form for many thousands of years, unchanged. It is the practice that enables one to create the Dan, the true elixir of alchemy, so treasured by the masters. Without this foundation, qigong cannot take place in the body-mind. David also teaches the neikung of the Lei Shan Dao. This is an invitation to sincere seekers to learn this training and go beyond it as well.

Here’s my letter:

“Okay here is a taste of what I experienced. Jordon’s description of Sherfu L was very accurate and my experience was very similar. I can actually still feel where he touched the top of my head and my mid eye point when I practice, so I think there was something to what David said about the empowerment he gave helping us with the practice. L’s treatment was more of an empowerment I would say, as opposed to a healing or diagnosis which a better descriptor for Sherfu J’s treatment; I’m sure that both masters probably do both. When L touches the top of your head with his qi, you literally see a light like a Forth of July sparkler. You don’t see with your visual center, but, at least it seemed this way to me, you see it with your mind or perceive it with your mind; it’s still very physical and bright. Also the music he played while he was treating me was really interesting; some kind of chanting like nothing I’ve ever heard. It really stuck with me. During the treatment, as L worked on various points around my body, my muscles would contract so strongly that I couldn’t keep my hands held together in the position he had me hold no matter how much I resisted. After when we meditated at L’s house, I felt a steady pressure on the bai hui point and it felt like my whole body had been pressurized with qi.

Sherfu L was also a very gracious host. He offered us a great deal of very strong Chinese tea and said some blessings for us. He’s very devoted to Kuan Yin the Goddess. After we left, I could still feel a bit of a buzz and felt very calm. Even a few nights after, I could feel his energy or the effects of his energy on many of the points he worked on; especially the upper points. I still feel the effects of his treatment as some areas have been permanently activated. L is also a martial artist and has done a lot of work with the military if I remember correctly. He looks it too with short cropped hair and definitely an athlete. The guy was very gentle, but there were a few pictures of him on the wall doing some hardcore kung fu; the guy could probably kill you with his pinky. According to David he teaches a technique where you gradually learn to absorb higher and higher voltages of electricity from a wall socket or a generator directly into your body to boost your power. I guess when you get really good you can absorb energy directly from the environment; you just suck it in to body. David said these students learn to absorb over 200 volts or something like that. Anyway, it’s enough to kill you quick; pretty amazing.

Sherfu J was totally different. Where L is very modest in the way he lives, very simple and in a modest area of town, J is a little more… well let’s just say he likes nice things. When we met him for the first time, he was wearing a bright red basketball jersey and matching shorts with some sporty flip flops. He had a big smile on his face and came out to greet us very warmly. His home is very nice, with marble flooring, big overstuffed leather coaches and a giant big screen TV. Actually in the setting we were in, I found it quite tasteful. From what I gathered, when you’re in Sherfu’s town, you really get taken care of and he entertains a great deal. After the second day I realized that the material luxuries are most likely really for the people who come to visit and that Sherfu and everything about him is about taking care of other people. From my short stay with him, I really feel I’ve met one of the most amazing people I may ever meet. From what I’m told, He spends most of his time doing charity work and helping people during our stay he fed us and paid for our accommodations and seemed to be very concerned with our comfort and really went out of his way to make sure we were doing well during our stay. And the food was really amazing.

The day after the ceremony, which was also quite an experience, Sherfu came to visit our hotel a few blocks from his home and began treating us one after the other. He would have each person sit in front of him. Then his assistant would come over and ground your feet by pressing the main energy point firmly and passing his qi into the sole of the foot. Then J would activate his qi by concentrating and doing a short breathing exercise while he pushed the qi into his hands by pressing them into the air in front of him a couple times. After he’s done this he asks the person to stand and holds their hand while he directs the qi into their body by pushing his other hand along the length of his arm and then into the body. When he “injects” you with his chi, the muscles in your arm gently, but irresistibly contract as his qi courses into your body. His qi is more like a steady magnetic force that produces a strong gentle current wherever he moves it in your body. At this point he relaxes and begins systematically touching various points on that side of your body. He touched different points on different people and each time the corresponding part of the body would gently and suddenly contract. When he was done checking a given side of your body, he would use this same technique of guiding the qi to pull his qi back into his arm. This was very interesting to watch. After he checked each person he would give a detailed report through the translator about the condition of each persons health and status of their over all energy and issue a clean bill of health or advise further treatment.

Sherfu recommended further treatment for several people in our group, including myself, later that day. The healings and treatments he administered that afternoon were probably the most remarkable and amazing things I have witnessed in my life up to this point. I will certainly never forget what I saw and what I went through. The only thing I can compare it to is watching my son’s birth.

It wouldn’t be appropriate to share what others in the group went through in terms of their treatment, but I can tell you about my experience. I’m sharing this because, if I were you I’d want to hear it and hopefully it’s worth telling. Anyway after a big lunch at Sherfu’s house, I was asked to stay behind with the translator and some of Sherfu’s students. Three weeks earlier Sherfu L found an imbalance in my kidneys. He didn’t make much of it, but suggested I take some herbs which he prepared the following day and said that he felt the imbalance was due to improper qigong practice. Perhaps he planted a seed in me; I don’t know, but I had some experiences in the weeks after and something told me to go to China even though I didn’t really have the money. As a side, David said that many people who practice the Healing Dao methods end up with this type of imbalance. In any case, on the morning that Sherfu J tested us, as he passed his qi into my left side the qi began to pulse, stopping and starting in a kind of rhythm as my arm contracted and released. He said that I had a fairly serious blockage in my kidney area and would need to draw some of the stagnant blood out and prepare some special herbal pills. One of the members of our group had been through something very similar and having shared their story, prepared me to some degree for what I was about to experience. That afternoon Sherfu had me stand on his porch as he lanced the veins in the back of both my knees with a prong the size of a knitting needle what seemed like at least a half inch into the flesh. After he got the blood flowing he used his qi to push the affected blood out of my body. What came out of me was about a half pint of what looked like roof tar. It was literally black and thick like a paste. Sherfu said that if I hadn’t come to him, I would have been quite possibly hit with a stroke within the year. After the treatment I actually felt really good. I was given several large herbal “pills” to clear anything that was left in my system. According to Sherfu, because of the properties of the type of medicine that I was given, I will never have to worry about this problem again and will be able to reach my optimal health. I guess these pills have a lot of qi and are a specialty of this lineage. I have to say, I really have been feeling good since I’ve been back. The Translator who was with me told me that when he met Sherfu he was completely paralyzed in his left arm and couldn’t turn his neck at all. Apparently he had the same kind of blockage or blood condition as me, but more advanced; he said that he was totally cured within two years of meeting Sherfu J.

In addition to the treatments I experienced and witnessed, Sherfu and his student, the translator, demonstrated there ability to transform water into this sweet nectar with their qi. Some people in the group had asked David if they could see this particular demo, so David politely requested for the group. Basically Sherfu just took a bottle of ordinary water and let everyone have a taste. Then he set the water on the table and pushes some qi into it for a minute or two. When he’s done we all got to taste it; it’s like sweet honey, but not like any kind of recognizable sweet taste. His student did the same demo later that night. It was really amazing and, at the same time, just very matter of fact and done with out any preparation. I’m told Sherfu’s favorite demo is to take a nice steak in his palm, crack an egg on it and fry it to a perfect medium rare right in his hand. Pretty freaking slick.

We also got to see a woman demo her yin yang gong by giving David a jolt of qi. The women in our group were very inspired to see a woman, who had two children no less, who had achieved this power.

The next morning at 6am, Sherfu called me back to his house and gave me several weeks worth of some more common herbs to take as a tonic and asked me to come back when I had an opportunity to do so. He was very kind and wished me well as I left that morning. Because I had to catch a connecting flight that afternoon in Shanghai, Sherfu arranged an 8 hour taxi ride through the Chinese countryside which was a great way to end my trip.

I hope all of you who have a desire to go, get to have this kind of experience (of course I hope you are healthy) and I hope all of us are able to train and learn these arts eventually. That’s my story.”

So, it's been nice chatting with you. May God be with you always and may you all know true happiness. Good bye.

Sean

This post has been edited by seandenty: 07 October 2006 - 08:04 PM

[cat]

mm, yes. You've had fun, been impressed, and got some healing. I've met lovely powerful people who give powerful transmissions too. And experienced powerful healings. And to think, I've had powerful energy exchanges with powerful male 'masters' who have benefited from my yin power and all this, from me,a woman who has two children - you'd think I'd be a mere husk of a person, really, after that initiation into life, wouldnt you? or perhaps not, if you were a little wiser.


To underestimate what I said about achieving tranquillity and equate it with the short term effects of eating chocolate or making love rather suggests you have a knee jerk reflex going on where you habitually underestimate others.

I have come across this quite regularly with martial teachers, and chinese "holders of secrets". I have been 'done to' and impressed, but I want to be taught what I can take away and use for myself. I do not wish to be held in thrall for expensive years and drip fed, and pacified by spectacles regarding water sweetening.

I have been taught to charge up via whole body absorption - I wouldnt consider that an advanced practise.

what is the teaching that will shift a person onwards from yin shen to the next stage?

In short - where's the meat, seandenty?

[thaddeus]

This reminds me awhile back about that other guy who was selling secrets and had a hissy fit that some of us were not worthy and were not welcome to buy his book. Just like a paper martial artist who falls apart once an opponent starts to apply a little pressure, these guys lose balance (temper/patience) or run like the hills at the slightest question.
Off the top of my head, these are signs that a path is questionable:
1. divides people into groups of worthy/unworthy, sincere/insincere.
2. uses magic tricks to dupe followers
3. demands absolute obedience
4. requires extreme sacrifices in order to be worthy of the teachings
5. starts to make you feel special above everyone else
6. after the novelty of the tricks wears off you find yourself with nothing
7. the teachers start to make increasing demands that penetrate your personal life and beging to act more and more crazy.
8. the male teachers start sleeping with your wives, girlfriends, neighbors while you become their bitch
9. makes you worship them instead of god..and what is god..hmmm

There's a ton more signs from people who study cults and manipulative relationships. This is just what I've seen.
I seen thousands of paths like this and in the end the fraud comes out.

Personaly, I've rediscovered Patanjali's Yoga Sutras. I think the path is pretty much laid out righ there. It's beautiful. In fact, I think you can see how many disciplines are pretty much saying the same thing. The only sacrifice to be made is practice--and it should be joyful.
T

[Ian]

Those of us with long memories will recall that a student of David's has popped up every two years or so, previously on the Healing Tao Usa board, and has always described him as the source of the only true teaching. I've always received the impression that David is a very determined practitioner, who has indeed achieved some abilities that most have not, but something about the whole thing has always made me uneasy.

It's partly the fairly complete absence of a sense of humour. Maybe high-level cultivation of this type requires a kind of grim seriousness. I wouldn't know.

It's mainly a feeling that the goal is dubious. I acknowledge that it would be lovely to be able to walk through walls (imagine never having to carry keys again, being effectively immune to bullets etc etc), and I acknowledge that to be able to walk through walls must require an extraordinary level of purification, such that one would be effectively desireless and thereby not a danger to all and sundry.

All well and good. But the only person alleged to be able to walk through walls is Wang Liping, who is frankly, to me, a mythical figure.

That apart, I get no particular vibe of purity, nor of humility, from anyone in this chain. It seems to be all about power. I remember remarking in the past that the anecdotes about John Chang's teachers, these allegedly amazingly advanced beings, showed them to have nothing better to do than fight with those of equal stature.

I just end up with this vibe which suggests a group of obsessives who are not obsessively drawn to the light of immortality or enlightenment, but rather to the relief of invulnerability, of freedom from fear through power, which to me is the opposite of what it's all about. This is entirely subjective, obviously, and not meant to refer to seandenty, about whom I know nothing.

As to specifics, I have much I don't like about Healing Dao. But many of its people are sincere, and some are remarkable practitioners. Dirk Oellibrandt especially.

It is curious how similar David's disciples' scripts are each time. A list of six practices you never heard of, in Chinese, which are the vital first steps, and are different each time. New stuff about what's wrong with Healing Dao... I dunno. There is some sincerity there, but I always feel something misguided, also.

[darebak]

I personally tend to believe every word of what Sean is saying.
Maybe it is because I remember him from another board much like taobums, that he participated in even before he became a student of Kostas. I remember his sincerity then.
I have followed this Lei Shan Dao trail for a few years now and all of the information Sean provides jibes with the information I have seen.

As for the secretiveness, this site being called "Taobums" I would assume that you all know the secretive history of Taoist practices. They share enough with the world to perhaps provide some healing or sense of peace, but not enough to hurt yourself or someone else, until you are in the care of a genuine teacher. It has been that way for thousands of years.

Granted there are some unsavory types that would use this history to manipulate people. In fact San Francisco, where I live is full of cults. The latest being a group claiming to have vajrayana lineage, that turns out to be connected to the late Frederick Lenz or "Rama", and a sex cult that operates around some of the sexual "techniques" taught in the HT stuff. Aaaand some of them have gone bonkers already. I have two friends that got sucked in and are now thankfully out, though one of them has really gone too far over the edge. That is another story and yet somehow connected. Perhaps it shows why this info should be kept to the tradition of secrecy.

There are two sites on the internet right now that I have found to be full of genuine, sincere, polite people who treat everyone, for the most part, with respect. One of them is Taobums. The other is the Shaolin Wahnam forum. (Wong Kiew Kit's forum)
Can you see why a genuine teacher of a genuine art would be looking for students via these two sites?
It is where the true "seekers" hang out.
I mean if the guy were looking for money there are plenty of other places he could go to farm for people willing to buy-in to the latest cult.
I understand the skepticism and I still hang onto a bit of it myself until someone zaps me with chi. I just thought I would offer my observations and perspective as a balance to the three posts above.

[thaddeus]

darebak, on Sep 28 2006, 04:39 PM, said:

I understand the skepticism and I still hang onto a bit of it myself until someone zaps me with chi. I just thought I would offer my observations and perspective as a balance to the three posts above.

Yeah, I did some googling after my posts and realize there's a long complicated history here that I wasn't aware of...stuff like channeled teachings/beings and what not. I don't expect in this lifetime to understand all this. But I'm in no rush either. Taking a crack at maya one bit at a time..but I'm a bum at heart, I don't really want to join a pack, that's where I am right now..
T

[sunshine]

thaddeus, on Sep 28 2006, 09:13 PM, said:

Yeah, I did some googling after my posts and realize there's a long complicated history here that I wasn't aware of...stuff like channeled teachings/beings and what not.

What do you mean by this?

[mYTHmAKER]

Ian, on Sep 28 2006, 10:02 AM, said:

It's partly the fairly complete absence of a sense of humour. Maybe high-level cultivation of this type requires a kind of grim seriousness. I wouldn't know.

If someone has no sense of humor stay away.
High level cultivation always has time to laugh.
After all the world is a cosmic joke.

[Wayfarer64]

Here are the last six lines from one of my sonnets (25 Innocence) that seems apt at this point -


Exaltation spreads when simple joys are within our reach Even as humor can be found in life’s many ways to smite us,
We search for those wise enough to laugh, able thus to teach
How to catch the ring of truth if being spun by the mendacious. Thus wary of pious charlatans offering jaded hubris as they may,
Hear veracity’s sound disclose the truthiness of what they say.

I wanted to use "truthiness" somewhere! a word recently coined by Colbert...and added to the Oxford dictionary shortly thereafter.

I in fact rather enjoyed this thread and may take it more seriously than I care to admit...There is something compelling about the magical side of Taoism. I am more involved with the basic philisophical points than the metaphysical aptitudes that tend to astonish...So I would like to learn more about that part of the knowledge too.

[sean]

Finally took time read this thread. What a party.

Interesting stuff from seandenty here. I wanted to throw in my two cents and say that, personally, I am more drawn to paths that lay more meat out up front. It's the American way! Ok, even if I need a teacher for minor or even major guidance in applying the techniques, give me a thumbnail sketch of what I am getting into. I am too hip on cults to sign up for something without a sense of what it's about. I can fully accept a layer of secretiveness. Particularly as an effort to maintain the sacredness of particular teachings, rituals, etc. or to protect the group from opression, say, if there are techniques involving fun illicit drugs, yogic sex with porn stars, clowns, midgets ...

Alright, I am not a fan of the "it's secret so you don't hurt yourself" thing. I assume a certain almost magical quality to naive sincerity. Even a worthless technique done in the right spirit is better than the perfect method done for the wrong reasons. Hurting oneself is an act of ignorance, of unconsciousness. And we are already doing this in every moment! Ask the Buddhists, they will tell you. But it's this thread of nearly foolish sincerity that guides us IMO. It's a very personal thing. My Taoist teacher Liu Ming tells me human beings can not even consciously kill themselves. Taoists believe suicide is a case of unresolved ancestral qi. In effect, an enraged demonic ancestor killing you with your own hands. Whoah. But to find a place of sincerity, where you consciously want to become a more evolved being, or even just want to have more fun, genuinely, to get in touch with the tiniest sliver of intuition, and follow this thread of bliss, even if there is a big pile of karmic crud on top of it, well I believe this is the whole path. It's when picking a flower for your lover is as powerful a qigong as flying to China and meeting a new super advanced teacher.

It's so simple. We can have a blast concocting elaborate rituals, learning to shoot qi balls, flying ... it could all even be part of our evolution. And Still there Is Silence the whole Way. Debating over a hierarchy of spiritual advancement is bizarre. There is no hierarchy. Evolution and progress are a function of time. What is Timeless? Nothing. Silence. And there is literally Nothing but Now. That's it. Now you are reading this. So this is That. Maybe you will be cooking later. That will be It. Completely and totally It. Maybe you will be in China with an extraordinary human being. That will be It. Up and down, moods change, your memories shift, round and round. What remains still? Can you see?

Honestly I only catch a glimpse myself. But how it feels! It's surely Truth.

I am aware that traditionally the Chinese sages were highly secretive. So it's possible that taking Taoism "all the way" requires a deeper embrace of this feature of the path. I'll stay a bum as long as I can though. Really many paths from all culture's including the West have been traditionally structured in a way many today would consider shockingly secretive, exclusive and elitist. For all number of reasons, good and bad. I am not the least bit offended by seandenty's posts here, (nor Li Jiong's in the past.) I think they are intriguing actually, and I would be curious to meet these fellows and their masters. I can't help feel that seandenty may be projecting a certain amount of his own love for his teachers outward as more objective features of the world than they are. When you have powerful experiences with someone it's like that though. Like, I can say with certainty that having sex with Lezlie is way way more high level than with ordinary women. She has many secret powers I have never seen demonstrated before. Only read about in books of legends. I consider it very unfortunate that none of you will ever be enlightened in this secret and powerful qigong, but it's an elite path reserved for only one man. hhhaah... LOL!

seandenty said:

This is an exciting time in history. For perhaps the first time, a westerner has been accepted as family by a living Daoist lineage.

Just "for the record", this is not the first time a Westerner has been accepted by an authentic Taoist family. Off the top of my head there has been Kristofer Schipper, Michael Saso and my teacher Liu Ming and I have not been looking. Ming teaches zuowang, "sitting in forgetfullness", an emptiness meditation basically indistinguishable from zazen. Later I believe he introduces alchemical meditations, but in a similar spirit that he teaches cooking clases and Taoist astrology; useful details to enrich the core process of embracing the ordinary that is engaged through zuowang. Honestly, does it need to be fundamentally more complex than this? Is there really so much more room for "irony and missteps" intrinsic to so-called "spiritual practice" than that which is inherent in any moment in life?

Sean

[cat]

blimey, sean's a bit good up his mind tank, isnt he?



(nice one, Lezlie.)

[Yoda]

Damn... walked into this party after it's over!!

Thanks to Sean for sharing and I'd love to see him post regularly. I'll google for more about David Shen. Isn't that the guy Winn says is an amazingly gifted practitioner and who has channelled a lot of his info? Somehow I seem to remember Winn and David not getting along for some reason. Winn didn't like the dude David was channelling or something.

After my sungazing experiment crashed and burned, I'm hesitant to get back to high energy practices that I assume Sean is referring to.

I definitely believe in all the special effects, though.

-Yoda

[mYTHmAKER]

..., on Sep 30 2006, 04:45 PM, said:

you know, if I had to choose between being a powerful immortal, or being 'enlightened' (i.e. content,) I would choose immortality.
plato, or aristolte, maybe it was socrates.. it was one of 'em... said something along the lines of...
"It is better to be a genius discontent than a pig content."

I think immortal and enlighten are interchangeable in the taoist context.
Being enlightened INHO means accepting of whatever happens - being in the moment -
joyful - and not just sitting on your ass.

[spyrelx]

Hi All,

I dug this up from a Tao USA Forum Q&A with Michael Winn, I think from around April of last year.

I want to stress that these are Winn's views -- and are definitely NOT my own.

I've never met David Shen and am in fact very interested in learning more about him and his practices.

I also think Winn has a penchant for character assassination clothed in psychological analysis (“an orphan resenting his desired father figure”) as well as for spiritual self-aggrandizement (“I have tracked his teacher on the inner planes” -- please). Though, to be honest, in this instance I think Michael gives as good as he gets.

So, to sum up, I have no first hand knowledge of any of this, these aren’t my views, and my mind’s still open on David. I only share this to add to the mix of information and because I thought some of you might be interested.

spyrelx


Question:
David Shen says on his website:

Mantak Chia presently living in Thailand founder of the Healing Tao (now Universal Tao) system that collects techniques from diverse Qi Gong teachings simplifying them for westerners.
IMPORTANT NOTICE
David collaborated in the codification of many of the practices in what is now called the Universal Tao. Among other teachings, David instructed Mantak Chia and Michael Winn in the introductory part of the Kong Jing (Empty Force) and Jing Shui (Water of Life) practices in order to introduce to them these teachings in a simple form. They later, without permission, took it upon themselves to incorporate fragments of these and other of David's teachings into the Universal Tao and Healing Tao USA systems.

These teachings and others were blended and simplified by them, but in this form are ineffective in the completion of Nei Dan Shu, the very thing for which they were originally created. They do not represent in any way the original transmission of Dazhen or David's other Masters, nor do they represent any traditional Daoist qigong cultivation method.

Michael, what's the deal with this? Is it a lie or what? Is there more to the story that you can share?

Michael Winn:
David Verdesi was a young Italian kid, an orphan, that took on Mantak Chia as a kind of father figure. I pushed him to develop his own thing, get out on his own. He had started channeling a Taoist, who he calls Dajen, but didn't know he was channeling, he thought (and thinks) he is a real person. David is very ungrounded, to say the least, and has nearly killed himself mixing Taoist and yogic sexual practices and taking them to the extreme danger points.

His channeled teacher has a very complex and interesting set of practices that are designed for someone living under extremely arduous conditions to get out of earthly life, fast, and into immortal life. I am not personally interested in practicing his system, but several healing tao instructors did try for some years and all left him with the same report: some very dark, powerful, and heartless force was behind him.

I have tracked his teacher in the inner planes and found out that Dajen had cultivated himself alone, to a very high level, but never cultivated his heart spirit or sense of collective humanity. He got stuck in a certain high level because of this and is now trying to resolve it through David, who is an aspect of his collective oversoul. So David is working out his heart issues and abandonment issues here. Dajen is a case of someone who used only yin-yang practices, and did not balance the five phase cycles which restore full balance to humanity.

The only thing I learned from David was at a public course taught at a NQA conference I invited him to - a breathing method I had discovered 20 years ago on my own about the space between the breaths, and was surprised to find it codified. I have incorporated it for my own use because it employs the kan and li principles at a very simple breathing level. It qualifies as a foot note in my overall development of the system, and bears no relationship whatsoever to his system.

I wish David well on his journey, and think his case is a very interesting experiment. Part of healing his heart issue is overcoming arrogance and resentment against all those who helped him previously.....

This post has been edited by spyrelx: 02 October 2006 - 11:39 AM