K?

[Ryan T.]

Im not upset. Its may be my unskilled way of writing that maby make me look like that.

 

What Im trying to do is de-glorify drugs in realtion to spirituality. Because of the experiences we get on drugs we are so easily fooled into believing in them. We are fooled into believing they are of some higher consciousness. Amongst the very few real insights we get, there are so many illusion that follow that the use of hallusinogenic drugs for spiritual cultivation really is a waste of time.

 

When people are into drugs they think they are in full control. Ive been there. I only used drugs for my spiritual cultivation and thought I was a real shaman that could master these things alone. It was only after I met real spiritual teachers that I realized my drug experiences was fake. I believe Ive had all the drug experiences you can have, and looking back I would say there hardly anything I can trust from that time.

 

But it was not until I got a teacher that could point out my blindspots and illusions that I could realize this. Until then I though I was in full control and a spiritual person that have seen the secrets of the universe. This is how we are fooled by drugs. To bad we dont see it ourselves.

 

You swore in that one post so you seemed upset to me. No matter.

 

And again, I completely agree with you that drugs hold a false promise. But it seems to me that a huge part of the Eastern spiritual revolution that took place in the United States in the 1960's and 1970's came on the heels after so many spiritual seekers drug-induced false promises collapsed.

[Pranaman]

People should speak from their experience.

 

If an enlightened old yogi looks back on his life, and remembers that if he never did ketamine, he would have never began his path to enlightenment, would drugs be bad?

 

 

I'm clean, i don't drink, i don't eat psychedelics anymore, i don't take aspirin, caffeine, etc...

 

A good man in my family told me once that when he did ketamine, he astral projected into the sky, and embodied the taiji form he saw someone do at the park mid-air in front of the moon, and then flashed and flew into another neighborhood miles away, he found himself at the doorstep of a good friend of his. He went inside and had a jolly old classic time with him, nothing wild or anything.

 

Someday I might be that yogi, and if I didn't undergo psychedelic trauma, than my path would have never started. Trauma can occur, but it is semi-synchronistic with fasting and dehydration trauma found within native american spiritual growth. I thank god my brain got fucked up for the time it did, I love that it happened to me, the most painful, dillusional and scary part of my life, is the part i'm most thankful for. all in my humble opinion, and just from my experience, which is the same and different than anyone elses.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Pranaman

[sean]

I did quite a bit of ketamine back in my drug experimentation years. At one point it was my favorite drug. I heard they reformulated it in the late nineties to prevent abuse (and rampant veterinary office break-ins), so it's not as strong anymore. Anyway, this was also back in my magick days. I would do LBRP, perhaps MPR, take a little K, then sit in the circle and scry tarot cards. Ridiculously intense. Like the only way I could really sanely tolerate the intensity of the visualizations and body sensations was how detached the K made me. It's a massive central nervous system depressant.

 

I think the drug has been used in psychotherapeutic settings to stimulate faux near death experiences. I never had a near death experience on K, but my brother and a few other friends did and to this day they chalk it up as one of the scariest experiences of their lives. If you want to read more about K, I suggest picking up some of John Lilly's stuff. He would do K then get in an isolation tank and communicate with aliens for hours. Also I think Farber discusses it a bit in FutureRitual.

 

I feel like I'm speaking about a past life, this all was so long ago. Getting old over here.

 

Oh yeah, drugs are bad. They rip tears in your aura and attract all kinds of astral nasties = dirty karma that takes years to clean up. If you are really bent on playing with drugs, save up and go to Peru and find a good authentic shaman.

 

Best,

Sean

[sheng zhen]

Oh yeah, drugs are bad. They rip tears in your aura and attract all kinds of astral nasties = dirty karma that takes years to clean up. If you are really bent on playing with drugs, save up and go to Peru and find a good authentic shaman.

exactly, lots of astral nasties. Many of them so subtle that they are hardly visible even if you are able to see these things.

 

Its not worth it when you can have the same spiritual realization without drugs.

 

As for life experience it would be an experience like any other experience. But for spiritual cultivation it is not worth it.

Edited August 2, 2008 by sheng zhen

[Pranaman]

Oh yeah, drugs are bad. They rip tears in your aura and attract all kinds of astral nasties = dirty karma that takes years to clean up. If you are really bent on playing with drugs, save up and go to Peru and find a good authentic shaman.

 

Best,

Sean

 

I agree. Aura damage from drug use sucks to work with, lower astrals attach to that state easily. Shamans got it down though

 

South American Shaman Retreat

 

for some cultivators it might be worth it, I believe if my ego were in a certain place it could help, but that's for me or nature to decide and not anyone else.

Edited August 2, 2008 by Pranaman

[muz]

Yes.

Agreed.

Drugs are bad .

Yup, I Am in total agreement.

 

Very attached to that answer...

Hmmm?

Can sure make it hard to listen?

 

 

So now that's all said ...

am still interested Muz?

Haven't heard of ketamine?

don't think?

What is it derived from?

Does it go by other names?

Have you been finding your own personal(not read about)

experiences with mediation to be similar after experiences with "K"?

How so ?

When working with energy/meditation/spiritual life/all

it can be real hard to explain our experiences sometimes.

Language is ALWAYS lacking !

And we can only understand through our own lives, these things.

Sometimes to hear what another fellow has to say

will help make things click for us/them in some way?

Or offer us great questions to explore!

maybe even "Shock" us into enlightenment,LOL!

 

Am interested in hearing about folks personal experiences!

 

What have you learned?

What is confusing?

Share the Knowledge!

 

Be a hippie if you like, LOL

Share the Love,Share the Love!

 

Peace!

 

Shon

Dude.

?

You know...

 

Anyone past the age of 7 could talk about Drugs.

The effects they have on us/society.

We've all had them play apart in our lives, near or far.

We already know where we stand with what's right and wrong.

No need to argue it further,

our minds are already set in our opinions.

If we are on a forum like this we are all old enough to know our own minds.

Why not have some intelligent discussion ?

Without being overly attached to the outcome, might be fun?

Or emotionally attached to the substance of the discussion.

We might learn something!

Good Luck!

Have fun!

 

Lets play!

 

 

cheers for your reply, i'll try and answer your questions as best as i can.

 

if you havent heard of ketamine then follow the link i posted at the start of the thread.

 

my experiences with meditation, taiji and qigong are quite limited but i learned to control energy in my body some time ago through dancing to speedcore and gabber under the influence of various stimulants and hallucinogenics before i had heard of ketamine. i hadn't really understood or cared much about the importance of what i was able to do until i was given two books, one on taiji, the other on qigong. i started taking an interest in the practices and noticed similarities between the feelings of warmth and vibration that were flowing through my body when practicing with the feeling of being fucked on drugs, stomping away to distorted bass drums playing at 200+bpm through a large soundsystem.

 

as the effects with taiji/qigong were harder to obtain and more subtle, i started to take the practice more seriously and also took a interest in taoist philosophy and tried to achieve states like i could get on drugs without the drugs and the comedowns after the drugs.

 

when i first got into ketamine i noticed how it rooted me to the ground in way i had never felt before, kind of like being stuck with stretchy glue on the soles of my feet, and also how it made me notice how every movement i made linked up and flowed, kind of like being locked in a never ending form, this gave me the push i needed to really take taiji and qigong seriously and made it easier for me to bring energy into my body and circulate when not on drugs it as now i knew for sure what i was looking for.

 

what have i learned? fuck loads, ive changed a lot since i was younger although i still like to get wasted now and then as i dj occasionally at squat parties. small doses of k were great for helping me realise what i wanted to do with my life but i still like to have fun with large doses too! its an extreme experience, some people have near death experieces, i had a death experiece once when i took a lot of k in a tent, i thought i had died and been buried, i was like oh well thats it my bodys gone but at least my minds still living on! another time i found myself floating in space, with no recollection of who i was or how i got there, eventually rematerialising atom-by-atom on the floor of a stinking warehouse. i think it has been good for me to shock myself like that as it has shown me my limits and when u can handle things like that theres not much you cant deal with in reality!

 

what is confusing? why some people who are into cultivation and spiritualism arrogantly try to force their closed minded on view on others, i feel they are missing some important points and obviously still have a lot to learn!

 

i wouldnt want to class my self as a hippie, or anything else, i'll leave that for other people to decide. ive got much more important things to think about than what catagory of person i fall into.

 

People should speak from their experience.

 

If an enlightened old yogi looks back on his life, and remembers that if he never did ketamine, he would have never began his path to enlightenment, would drugs be bad?

 

 

Edited August 3, 2008 by muz

[billb]

This lower astral stuff is giving me the creeps. Don't take drugs anymore. Do they like beer?

[Taomeow]

If you want to know everything there is to know about man-made entheogens without having to try every single one of them, get Tihkal and Pihkal, two highly enlightening books on the subject, by Alexander Shulgin and Ann Shulgin. These, among other things, will give you scores of "experiences" by a dedicated group of researchers who collaborated with Shulgin for decades by offering themselves as guinea pigs for dozens of first-hand experiments with amines-based goodies in a controlled setting. Their detailed accounts are included in the books. (Shulgin is the creator of over two hundred of these goodies, notably Ecstasy. The caveats are all there, buyer beware and so on.)

 

If you want to know about some of the most important nature-made entheogens, get Plants Of The Gods: Their Sacred, Healing, and Hallucinogenic Powers, by R. E. Schultes, A. Hoffman and C. Ratsch, three prominent German researchers into the matter.

 

Personally, I would never touch a man-made, lab-made entheogen, and would only do a nature-made one under shamanic supervision. But when plants are called "drugs," while patented designer molecules never encountered in nature, let alone in the human brain, are called "medication," I suffer from a deep cognitive dissonance.... Most people don't notice, just the way they were programmed not to notice, how brutally they've been had on the cognitive level in order to accept these definitions.

Edited August 3, 2008 by Taomeow

[Lozen]

I never did special K but I did try to help someone who was on it get on a bus once when he insisted on sitting in the middle of the street. it was a weird scene. I guess horse tranquilizers never appealed to me.

[phore]

the first time i tried pot i knew that my life would never be the same.

later (after trying pot many more times and some other things) i decided that the peace must come from within( that and my parents caught me)

 

having tried both drugs and kunlun i would say kunlun wins every time.

[sheng zhen]

I never did special K but I did try to help someone who was on it get on a bus once when he insisted on sitting in the middle of the street. it was a weird scene. I guess horse tranquilizers never appealed to me.

He must have been deeply in touch with the mysteries of the universe, maby even close to enlightenment

[Cameron]

My advice would be no. Tripping/taking drugs gives you a quick glimpse into a higher awareness but it's gone the next day and the damage is done. If you want something long term got to get on a spiritual path.

 

Check this out! Don't let this be you!

 

DS4tvvFNIns

[Vajrasattva]

Only K you need is KUNDALINI..... forget about drugs the high will come & Go. Kundalini is permanent & better.

[rain]

Very interesting train of thought Taomeow. Shulgin has been named "the stepfather of ecstasy" MDMA (3,4 metylendioksimetamfetamin) closely related to MDA (3,4.metylendioksiamfetamin) and MDEA (3,4-metylendioksietylamfetamin), was originally produced by MERCK in Germany....(in 1912), who also "gave the world" morphine and cocaine btw. All three M's have both sentral stimulating and hallusinogenic properties.

There are hundreds of chemically related drugs. Of which Shulgin are responsible for many. After worldwar II the American government showed great interest in this drug that had been almost forgotten until then. In the 50-ties the american army testbase in Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland started to experiment with it on animals to see if could be used as a chemical weapon (remember agent orange.) The army allegedly codenamed MDMA Agent 1475. There are no evidence of them using it on soldiers....

Shulgin was in the anerican (wow nice slip of the tounge there) MARINE during second world war...(sharks).. Studied biochemistry and worked at Dole Chemicals. But got fired for being too enthusiastic, perhaps, using himself as a guinypig. Yes and there we go...we all know the history of psychiatry, the merry sixties, going east etc

 

rrr ammm dass etc

 

you can say ANYTHING (famous last words) but boring this world aint.

 

I do so second

Only K you need is KUNDALINI..... forget about drugs the high will come & Go. Kundalini is permanent & better.quote Vajra

Edited August 3, 2008 by rain

[sheng zhen]

Check this out! Don't let this be you!

hahaha, really funny!!! ...but did you see it? First he did zhang zhuang, then he did fang song gong, and then he had the big enlightening realization of the big "why"

 

Why spend years of spiritual work and meditation when you can get it all in 5 minutes!?? Im only asking...

[Cameron]

hahaha, really funny!!! ...but did you see it? First he did zhang zhuang, then he did fang song gong, and then he had the big enlightening realization of the big "why"

 

Why spend years of spiritual work and meditation when you can get it all in 5 minutes!?? Im only asking...

 

Brain damage? Who knows maybe it's worth the gamble

[steve]

I experimented with lot's of stuff in the 70's. K wasn't much available then but PCP was, which is very closely related. My exprience has been that drugs simulate states of mind that can be achieved through non-drugged methods but that the experiences and ideas that occur through intoxication are basically just entertainment. It gives the impression of awakening and understanding but it's really just a toxic alteration of awareness and perception that does little or nothing advantageous for you in the long run. The one benefit may be that it opens up the mind to alternatives to mundane, "by the socio-cultural rules", existence. The danger is that it becomes the focus rather than the catalyst. Furthermore, the intensity and physiologic effects often lead to harmful consequences. K is particularly hazardous due to it's intensity. I'd highly recommend always having a sober "sitter" when doing it if you must indulge. None of my drug experiences are anything like the insight and development that have come through the slow, deliberate, and disciplined work in Dao meditation, neigong, taijiquan, and selected reading and interacting with others.

 

In a very similar vein, many spiritual practices are quite similar to the effect of entheogenic drugs. There's a reason why Karl Marx called religion the drug of the masses. Spiritual experience of great intensity is little different than drug induced entertainment. People tend to be turned on by the intensity of feeling, whether it's seeing colors and spirit guides or the body shaking or waves of orgasmic euphoria - it's all entertainment. It's highly addictive - it's like internet porn or collecting fine wine and so on. Always looking for a more intense experience that is more seducing to the sense or the intellect. Always waiting for that step that'll take one closer to "enlightenment" whatever that may mean to us. There's nothing more insidioius than the spiritual addiction that many of us get hooked on in our innocent yearning for something more than what is our "boring" everyday experience. And there is an enormous business devoted to exploiting this very thing. I'm not saying that we shouldn't try to improve ourselves and search for new experience but beware the path changing from catalyst to doctrine or objective.

 

So those of us that self-righteously decry drug intoxication should take a close look at ourselves in the midst of our spiritual and intellectual intoxication. It's not as different as one might think. It's all a matter of perspective.

[sheng zhen]

So those of us that self-righteously decry drug intoxication should take a close look at ourselves in the midst of our spiritual and intellectual intoxication. It's not as different as one might think. It's all a matter of perspective.

A very important perspective indeed!

[Taomeow]

Very interesting train of thought Taomeow. Shulgin has been named "the stepfather of ecstasy" MDMA (3,4 metylendioksimetamfetamin) closely related to MDA (3,4.metylendioksiamfetamin) and MDEA (3,4-metylendioksietylamfetamin), was originally produced by MERCK in Germany....(in 1912), who also "gave the world" morphine and cocaine btw. All three M's have both sentral stimulating and hallusinogenic properties.

There are hundreds of chemically related drugs. Of which Shulgin are responsible for many. After worldwar II the American government showed great interest in this drug that had been almost forgotten until then. In the 50-ties the american army testbase in Edgewood Arsenal in Maryland started to experiment with it on animals to see if could be used as a chemical weapon (remember agent orange.) The army allegedly codenamed MDMA Agent 1475. There are no evidence of them using it on soldiers....

Shulgin was in the anerican (wow nice slip of the tounge there) MARINE during second world war...(sharks).. Studied biochemistry and worked at Dole Chemicals. But got fired for being too enthusiastic, perhaps, using himself as a guinypig. Yes and there we go...we all know the history of psychiatry, the merry sixties, going east etc

 

rrr ammm dass etc

 

you can say ANYTHING (famous last words) but boring this world aint.

 

I do so second

Only K you need is KUNDALINI..... forget about drugs the high will come & Go. Kundalini is permanent & better.quote Vajra

 

Rain,

 

your holographic thought-patterns never cease to amaze me. I have seldom encountered a "train of thought" that is capable of chasing its own tail like a playful kitten.

 

Stepfather, right, I forgot. Doesn't matter, I wouldn't take it anyway -- have you seen the Shulgins on youtube? -- they look old and decrepit, theirs ain't no body-mind-spirit cultivation tools, the body is left out of the quest and therefore I'm not interested. Now Plants Of The Gods has, among its many illustrations, photographs of holy men in India looking like Vishnu, the patron of ganja, smoking away, the way their scriptures tell them to (one-third of all sutras in the Vedic literature are either direct hymns to the sacred plants or a reference to same). You will see pictures of the Mazaltec shaman-healer-saint Maria Sabina, who combined Catholic saints with sacred mushrooms to arrive at her powers and has healed thousands of people. I do hate it when the same people who make our drugs for us (drugs, not plants) tell us how to feel about plants (plants, not drugs) -- plants that are actually responsible for our evolution itself, plants that gave us brain receptors we never needed for bananas and carrots, our true forefathers and teachers --

plants that would compete so successfully with their chemical dish-outs that they had to outlaw them, taking opium out of the doctor's hand and giving him morphine instead, demonizing tobacco and adding two thousand drugs to it while at it, with a sleight-of-hand trick that turns it into another drug, the one that addicts the recipient not to the tobacco plant but to chemicals in his/her cigarette, chemical drugs in general that rewire the brain permanently (Prozac to the rescue!), rooting out hemp industries and planting petrochemicals-based textiles instead --

 

that I can never sing to the "drugs are bad for you" tune until people learn to tell the difference between cannibal-industries-made drugs and tao-made plants. Yes, drugs are bad for you, and plants are tao for you, and they treat you exactly the way you treat her... and if they treat you badly, it means...

Edited August 3, 2008 by Taomeow

[Patrick Brown]

Brain damage? Who knows maybe it's worth the gamble

 

*Patrick pours another glass of wine*

[sheng zhen]

that I can never sing to the "drugs are bad for you" tune until people learn to tell the difference between cannibal-industries-made drugs and tao-made plants. Yes, drugs are bad for you, and plants are tao for you, and they treat you exactly the way you treat her... and if they treat you badly, it means...

But Taomeow, when the tao-made plants start being used in weekends for entertainment by youth who only want to get away from themselves, I would say they are being used as a drug. And is therefore no different than industry-made drugs. It dosent matter how tao-made they are when people use them to satisfy their own (subconscious) self-destructive needs.

 

I wouldt say anything if it is being used IN context, by a real shaman, maby only once or twice in a lifetime and only for very special occations. But how often does THAT happen in this culture we are in. Most of us are weekend abusers who only dream of other realities and shortcuts, not willing to do the real work.

[Taomeow]

But Taomeow, when the tao-made plants start being used in weekends for entertainment by youth who only want to get away from themselves, I would say they are being used as a drug. And is therefore no different than industry-made drugs. It dosent matter how tao-made they are when people use them to satisfy their own (subconscious) self-destructive needs.

 

I wouldt say anything if it is being used IN context, by a real shaman, maby only once or twice in a lifetime and only for very special occations. But how often does THAT happen in this culture we are in. Most of us are weekend abusers who only dream of other realities and shortcuts, not willing to do the real work.

Oh, I agree. Anything can be misused, abused, turned to harmful, serve evil. But we don't outlaw water even though thousands of people drown in it every year. (Not yet anyway.) We don't outlaw food just because people can give themselves obesity and diabetes and heart attacks misusing it, as tens of millions do every year. We don't outlaw language even though people use it to hurt other people, even though in a certain context a word can kill! We don't outlaw love even though people are hurt by love on a daily basis, we don't outlaw marriage even though every second one turns into a court battle, we don't outlaw life just because it can be abused, misused, made self-destructive. Not yet anyway, but "they" are working on just that -- to outlaw one's right to learn from own mistakes rather than from daddy-state's punishments is a step in this very direction. Young people who do damage to themselves with plants-used-as-drugs are ignorant, and they are not educated, they are mis-educated, misled, misguided, lied to. They don't believe "anything" the world of authority might tell them, as things stand now, because the world of authority lies to them so much -- telling the truth in the overwhelming context of lies doesn't help, truth gets lost somewhere there. At the same time, unconsciously they believe "everything" -- including the message that they are destroying themselves with plants as soon as these are named drugs, it becomes an expectation, a self-fulfilling prophecy, and a motivation for use to begin with, an erroneous one. You get what you expect to get, sort of. What you are programmed to get.

[Smile]

As always, nice posts Taomeow.

I have the book you mentioned. I also have a couple that go into details on use and doses - from time when I was really interested in the hallucinogenic plants. In Russia, we have Amanita muscaria, commonly known as the fly agaric, that grows in any forest from August to October. I even ate 5 of them at once. Officially, I should be dead. Unofficially, talking plants and voices explaining things and what is going on, visions, etc. Lots of vomiting from poison. All alone at night, in a house surrounded by forest- good stuff. Never did it again.

Now, there is no need.

[rain]

quote taomeow;

 

Rain,

 

your holographic thought-patterns never cease to amaze me. I have seldom encountered a "train of thought" that is capable of chasing its own tail like a playful kitten. biggrin.gif

-----------

 

ohh yeah?

 

http://farm3.static.flickr.com/2152/207716...68d0350.jpg?v=0

Edited August 3, 2008 by rain

[Taomeow]

As always, nice posts Taomeow.

I have the book you mentioned. I also have a couple that go into details on use and doses - from time when I was really interested in the hallucinogenic plants. In Russia, we have Amanita muscaria, commonly known as the fly agaric, that grows in any forest from August to October. I even ate 5 of them at once. Officially, I should be dead. Unofficially, talking plants and voices explaining things and what is going on, visions, etc. Lots of vomiting from poison. All alone at night, in a house surrounded by forest- good stuff. Never did it again.

Now, there is no need.

Damn, you ate the mukhomor? You must have been insanely brave and better educated than me too! I was taught "all about mushrooms" since an early age, in assorted Eastern European forests (knew dozens of them at five -- kids learn instantly if it's show-tell in a natural setting), and this one I wasn't allowed to even come close to, let alone touch -- it was supposed to jump and bite my fingers off or something. I believed it too.

 

Well, I've read about its real cultural history later -- the whole of Greek civilization, among other things, comes from this mushroom and its teachings -- except for the parts they borrowed from China via their Mediterranean liaisons of course --

 

I guess there's teachers who never need to repeat their lessons, and plants of this nature can't possibly be used "recreationally." I learned a profound and brutal lesson from belladonna in my early 20s. Half a century of university courses couldn't come close. What she taught me blew my mind, I never forgot, took me years to understand and process... but the lesson was spot on, the cat's meow of what I needed to know about the world and my position in it. I would never repeat that either -- it was horrible -- nor have I ever regretted having learned what I learned, it was necessary.

 

The "recreational" crowd I can't really blame either. Real (not mechanical) joys are so rare in their lives, the depth of feeling so unavailable to them by natural means (due to blunted overall senses and sensitivities), they gotta do "something" to feel alive every now and then... If they felt alive as a matter of course (which was supposed to be their birthright... sigh), they wouldn't need that shit...

Edited August 3, 2008 by Taomeow