[Trunk]

I wanted to bring up the topic of "constantly sexually rev'd" as a result of retention of aroused jing. Specifically in contrast of turning the light around.. or (to put it briefly), bringing attention deeply and steadily inward in a way that results in (or at least moves towards) non-dual consciousness.

Seems to me that "constantly sexually rev'd" is basically the opposite of the process of "turning the light around", and so can be a formidable trouble area.

Observations, ideas, solutions?

[Yoda]

Another great post!

I would say that being sexually revved is a prerequisite to turning the light around. Need light to turn around in the first place plus the pressure of the light forces one to move from dual consciousness (oh me so hony) to mixture (I love you) to non-dual (dude...)

[sean]

I've been paying close attention to my LTT area lately. All of the sensations there. Temperature, pleasure/pain, muscle tension (particularly in the abdomen, psoas, and sphincter). Doing Sedona Method style "allowing and releasing" and it's opening up my LTT in new ways. Finding new and sometimes surprising layers of release around every corner. This is really probably common sense, but putting it into consistent practice the last week has been making a big difference for me.

[MatthewQi]

Trunk, on Sep 9 2005, 10:00 AM, said:

I wanted to bring up the topic of "constantly sexually rev'd" as a result of retention of aroused jing.  Specifically in contrast of turning the light around.. or (to put it briefly), bringing attention deeply and steadily inward in a way that results in (or at least moves towards) non-dual consciousness.

Seems to me that "constantly sexually rev'd" is basically the opposite of the process of "turning the light around", and so can be a formidable trouble area.

Observations, ideas, solutions?

Trunk,

Nice write up on turning the light around! One of the qoutes I like that I read somewhere was "It is not enough to just see the light, you must become the light". If one is seeing the light they are still "seperate" from it.

I think it is important to feel arousal during alchemy in addition to bringing in heaven, earth, cosmic energy as well as internal yin and yang. I actually happened to be going through some of my K&L tapes the other day and listened to about 2 minutes of Chia doing K&L and talking about imagining oneself making love to ones partner and feeling the arousal energy. It reminded me of how important it is to use that feeling during alchemy. I think Winn talks about this as something like vibrating the jing with the chi and shen.

Strangely, I have been making those sounds that Winn and Chia make and sorta "ahhhaa'ing" sighing etc. and trembling in the mid section like a deep suction (in lower tan tien) that is causing me to curl over abit and tremble while feeling very blissful, as well as a lot of body twitching (kriyas). I have been doing some rapid energy circulating "hoops" from my feet up through my head and back and a lot of toning and 3 finger retention (solo only, if with my wife, I ejaculate and it actually creates more beautiful energy), oh yea, and primordial qigong.

I actually got in touch with this deep suctioning while using the aneros lying on my stomach with hands and arms tucked under my chest. I think someone on that forum talked about getting the abdomin to involuntarily contract as part of the super O - which my hypothesis is, is the same as deep spiritual communion.

So if you are looking for feedback for this topic for your writing, I would say that it is definitely a plus to feel horney and work with it for spiritual purposes. I personally feel that the more rev'd up the jing the better! But this topic has long been controversial and split the Complete Reality School ot Taoism into the Southern (utilizing rev'd jing) and Northern (utilizing cold jing).

Matt

[Yoda]

Matt,

Now that I've been strictly retaining for awhile, I am definitely in the market for a couple of Super-Os.

I still need to exchange my Helix for an MGX, perhaps that'll help.

I read a Conversations With God quote the other day in Office Max of all places (Some CEO trainer was quoting it):

The more you pleasure yourself, the more you will pleasure others.

The quote wasn't specifically sexual, but it certainly fits.

Plato said that long term use of the aneros has made him a great lover, but he didn't unpack that statement. Also, I'd be interested in the "aaahhhhaaa" of Kan and Li as compared to the "aaaaahhhhaaa" of the keysound. Thanks for any thoughts!

-Yoda

[MatthewQi]

Yoda thanks for mentioning that similarity between the sounds. I didn't even consciously notice that! The difference seems to me that the keysound is purposely made and rolls upward in tone. The K&L sound is in response to the suction force and is more up and down and up and down.

Matt

[Trunk]

Yoda, Matt,

Seems to me that you two are ignoring reverse altogether and simply reveling in forward. My intent in my original post was to prompt clarification of both through contrast, excluding neither.

Trunk

(If you have ?'s about what I mean, please first see if you can answer your ?'s through considering my original post.)

[Yoda]

Trunk,

I don't understand what 'reverse' and 'forward' means. I think of it as pressure building up from below as a 'push' and real passion as a 'pull' perhaps what Matt is referring to as suction. Do explain.

-Yodster

[MatthewQi]

Trunk, on Sep 10 2005, 10:03 PM, said:

Yoda, Matt,

Seems to me that you two are ignoring reverse altogether and simply reveling in forward.  My intent in my original post was to prompt clarification of both through contrast, excluding neither.

Trunk

(If you have ?'s about what I mean, please first see if you can answer your ?'s through considering my original post.)

[MatthewQi]

Trunk, on Sep 10 2005, 10:03 PM, said:

Yoda, Matt,

Seems to me that you two are ignoring reverse altogether and simply reveling in forward.  My intent in my original post was to prompt clarification of both through contrast, excluding neither.

Trunk

(If you have ?'s about what I mean, please first see if you can answer your ?'s through considering my original post.)

Trunk,

I do not seem them as seperate but as integral. I am not sure one is really building up jing without an inward focus in the first place.

Matt

[Yoda]

Osho mentions that most people flow their chi down the spine, but the master moves their chi up the spine. That goes for fluids, too. He mentions exercise, and inverted yoga postures, and darkroom practices and meditation to help the flow move up to avoid pooling in the tailbone.

That's sort of "reversing the flow", yes?

[rex]

Trunk,
Just some observations and thoughts though they may be based on wrong assumptions. I notice you use the phrase aroused jing as opposed to unaroused jing or just jing. In my experience aroused jing by it's nature is outward seeking and connected to desire and form. Now depending on what colour cat is used to catch the rat (to paraphase Mantak Chia) the element within oneself that gets off on aroused jing may after a time feel that a fraud is taking place and that some sort of innate contract is being abused. This element is bound to announce it's displeasure overtly through strong desire. So the colour of the cat is important in single/dual cultivation in terms of the images and motivations employed etc.

Unaroused jing can still 'cause trouble' by seeking it's natural expression. As it builds up the part of you that likes to get off can work covertly step by step taking advantage of moments of weakness - High Hopes by Pink Floyd has an apt line here: 'steps taken forward and sleep walking back again, drawn by the force of some inner tide'.

Working with the bindu point in the heart centre (not necessarily deliberatly , more usually as a by product of other heart centred spiritual practices) and practicing presence of awareness through quiet sitting can help in two ways. First by giving an insight into how the unfulfilled jing manifests itself in oneself. Secondly by causing lucid moments of experience where the nature of the desire (or any emotion/impulse for that matter) is seen as a modality of one Vast Light (to use the phrase from your excellent article). This is where you start getting into non-duality.

This is all well and good but there still remains that elusive powerful directing force which seeks to control the jing. It can't be fobbed off or tricked and is immune to direct attack. Paradoxically give it what it wants, only skillfully. Tsultrim Allione in her tape set 'Cutting through fear' explains a Chod practice suitable for everyone (i.e. you don't have to be buddhist) where one's inner demons and gods (hopes and fears) are are fed to satisfaction. Using a method similar the Dialogue Method mentioned by Sean one goes through a step by step process of identifying and communicating with the sensations in the body where issues are expressed. Letting them appear to in a form of their own choosing communication can take place. The only difference I see is that the buddhist slant comes in from giving the demons and gods an experience of the wish fullfilling nectar of the Vast Light as all desires stem from a desire for peace and fulfillment. A possible weakness here is that if one hasn't had much experience of inner peace through meditaton than it may not be so good. Who knows it may be worth a try anyway. Tsultrim Allione has methods have been used sucessfully with psychotherapists and the treatment of compulsion etc.

I've had some postive experiences with these three approaches (heart centre, awareness and Chod) though haven't done Kan & Li which I understand is supposed to address issues with sexual desire - is this right?

Rex

[Trunk]

Matt and Yoda,

My original post was really prompted by reading everyone's comments in thelerner's personal practice thread (end of Aug posts), in which several people mentioned that retaining aroused jing made them horny all the time, "constantly sexually rev'd". I agree that that's fun sometimes (but not all the time), and I agree that jing is a fuel (that can be used well, and/or that people get burned).

My point is that, by constantly sexually rev'ed there's this:
1. The attention, psyche and body is driven outward.
2. Its an intense dualistic experience. That is, there is me wanting that, out there.
3. 1&2 are constant, and powerful. ie, "constantly sexually rev'ed".

Now, you may circulate jing, save it, refine it to some moderate degree, but I'd still say that the above is FORWARD (by the qualities that I've put in bold).. (unless you refine deeply enough, then it becomes "reverse").

REVERSE is driven by a process of:
Gathering energy and attention deeply inward, steadily, in a way that resolves into non-duality. If you just contrast the bold words just here, and up there: forward and reverse. Reverse is the process that, over the long term, gives the whole process real power and stability. Its what brings you from the 10,000 things to The One Place. To me, that's a really important .. well, its the point of cultivation. (And I want to do it in a way that is good for my health, life, and sexuality.) Maybe you guys aren't interested in that, I don't know.

"Reverse", in this sense, interupts the cycle of outward desire. Its not that its not pleasurable. There is some pleasure in the process, but there isn't outward grasping of attention.

I'm not saying that forward is "bad", that you have to give it up entirely (not that any of us are capable of that), nor any of that extreme stuff. Only that being constantly sexually rev'd would seem to make it harder to turn inward easily, and so sabotages the whole point (or at least a very large point) of cultivation. Do you guys find it to be a difficulty in that way? Do you find yourself overly distracted from being horny all the time? Or are you able to re-direct that force inwardly, still, when you want to, fluently and effectively?

It seems to me that if one's ability to turn inward is not sufficiently developed, then you don't have enough power to turn around the powerful fuel that you're saving - so that it ends up creating more trouble (from a buddhist stand-point). But if you're deep-center (and all the physical and subtle layers leading in to that) is developed powerfully enough then that fuel gets drawn deeply inward, and used to further empower cultivation. So, saving jing is both a powerful danger and a powerful opportunity.

And, of course, there are the more physical layers of: can you keep your tissues supple, your fluids well blended, and your channels open and free of clogs. Which is all a lot of work in itself.

Trunk

[Trunk]

Rex,

rex, on Sep 12 2005, 08:04 AM, said:

In my experience aroused jing by it's nature is outward seeking and connected to desire and form. .. the element within oneself that gets off on aroused jing may after a time feel that a fraud is taking place and that some sort of innate contract is being abused. This element is bound to announce it's displeasure overtly through strong desire.

Mostly agreed, and well put.
Part of this is (as you mention later in your post) keeping in dialogue with the aspects of psyche, and getting good at outward ("forward") activity that effectively expresses your centers' desires, and produces real satisfaction for them, along the lines of their natural self expression. I'm of the opinion that self expression is innate and good, and one should get good at it. Its part of self development, and the healthy expression of "forward".

Quote

Secondly by causing lucid moments of experience where the nature of the desire (or any emotion/impulse for that matter) is seen as a modality of one Vast Light (to use the phrase from your excellent article). This is where you start getting into non-duality.

Again, basically agreed.
I would also say that jing transforms into light, that that is satisfying, and I strongly suspect that that provides a basis for later very progressive development.

Your comments on chod are interesting; its a topic that I'm not read in, and no direct experience.

Quote

I've had some postive experiences with these three approaches (heart centre, awareness and Chod) though haven't done Kan & Li which I understand is supposed to address issues with sexual desire - is this right?

Kan & Li is a system of progressive vertical integration, starting with the blending of heart and sexual centers (in various ways) and gradually including more and more, up and down, both within the body (higher and lower centers) and without (sun/moon, heaven/earth). It is an important part of harmonizing sexual energy. But the HT lacks description of what happens within the deep-centers and of the relationship of the central channel to non-duality in general.

The Tibetan Six Yogas system includes the blending of upper & lower center energies, and goes more deeply into methods of resolution into non-duality than does the HT system. Which, in my view (not just my view, but classically as well - in both Taoism as well as others), is critical to getting alchemy to really work.

Trunk

[hagar]

Trunk,

In my own experience, the suspension of conditioning is the natural result of proper practice, ending in a sensation of increased space and light.

It does seem that alot of the "minor" paths lead to a dualistic focus, igniting the younger Jing or water.

In "Understanding Reality" the younger water is said to potetially contain the elder water. This means that through correct practice, the essential, "elder" water is cultivated through awakening the younger, but that it is harvested before it turns to desire and generative energy(sexual rev'ing)

Cultivating correctly increases capacity but diminishes desire.

I also find that the most taxing is the loss of light and space, and not the coarse Jing.

We are all like fading comets...

h

Trunk, on Sep 12 2005, 03:50 PM, said:

Rex,
Mostly agreed, and well put.
Part of this is (as you mention later in your post) keeping in dialogue with the aspects of psyche, and getting good at outward ("forward") activity that effectively expresses your centers' desires, and produces real satisfaction for them, along the lines of their natural self expression.  I'm of the opinion that self expression is innate and good, and one should get good at it.  Its part of self development, and the healthy expression of "forward".
Again, basically agreed.
I would also say that jing transforms into light, that that is satisfying, and I strongly suspect that that provides a basis for later very progressive development.

Your comments on chod are interesting; its a topic that I'm not read in, and no direct experience.
Kan & Li is a system of progressive vertical integration, starting with the blending of heart and sexual centers (in various ways) and gradually including more and more, up and down, both within the body and sun/moon, heaven/earth.  It is an important part of harmonizing sexual energy.

The Tibetan Six Yogas system includes the blending of upper & lower center energies, and goes more deeply into methods of resolution into non-duality than does the HT system.  Which, in my view (not just my view, but classically as well - in both Taoism as well as others), is critical to getting alchemy to really work.

Trunk

[rex]

Trunk,
Interesting that you mention the Six Yogas. The central channel plays a major role in chod. Chod is known as the totality of all the teachings as it has components of or alludes to elements of the larger body of Tibetan buddhist teachings: phowa (how to leave the body at death); identification with sacred energy fields (to help transform ordinary consciousness into an enlightened state); cutting attachment to the body (by chopping it up in an alchemical cauldron); tummo where the solar and lunar energies melt into one another in the cauldron and transform the body into a nectar with the capcity to feed and relax beings into the state of innate wisdom /clear light; generosity, compassion and equanimity (by offering the body transformed into nectar to anything that wants it).

Apparently when done properly it's more than just imaginative play acting. Historically chod practitoners were known to assist in areas of high contagion where other advanced buddhist practitioners who weren't chodpas couldn't venture.

Machik's Complete Explanation is an excellent read and among other things has a decent chapters on the body's energy system and the origin of evil (from a buddhist perspective).

Rex

[Yoda]

Fun thread!

It seems to me that being constantly rev'd is a prerequisite to force one's mind past duality.

Blake said something like, "the path of extremes is the way to wisdom."

Revving so hard that you can't fit it into your world like Michael begging for nooners then eventually for tea time, etc... there gets to be a point where your world can't handle your energy level and you have to lift the needle off the record at some point or get kicked off taobums in the case of Master Pottymouth.

While we have a body, the bottom line experience will always be a mix.

Chod seems to be the experience of intensifying experience to the point of extreme duality which sort of short circuits the whole thing into non-duality, like Blake's observation.

The story of Milarepa meditating in the cave and getting attacked by invincible demons comes to mind. Milarepa tried to fight them off with the best mantras and the most wickedly powerful magic going, but they weren't deterred at all. Finally he just got exhausted and said to hell with it and threw himself into their mouths. I forget what they did at that point, but the act of surrendering the fight and flight game neutralized the situation and the demons either disapeared or everyone became friends. Anyone remember? Something like that.

Yoda

[Trunk]

Yoda, on Sep 12 2005, 03:48 PM, said:

It seems to me that being constantly rev'd is a prerequisite to force one's mind past duality.

Quite the opposite. Its easiest to stabalize a balanced blend of energy, and "constantly rev'd" is clearly a very polarized situation. To me it indicates a difficulty. Somewhere, at some layer in your system (physical, subtle, psyche), it hasn't been harmonized.

Possible solutions that come to my mind are:
- improving the ability to exchange with one's partner during dual-cultivation, so that aroused jing is actually satisfied.
- improving solo unaroused cultivation, in order to bring the agitation back to stillness.
- Perhaps experimenting with spending more time away from one's partner between times of love-making, in order to fully come back to solo nuetral.
- ejaculating more often, until your ability to harmonize rampant energy grows to be more in balance with your tendency to store rampant energy.

Basically, taking on the challenge of learning to bring the "constant forward" back to "reverse". However that gets done.

I don't think you guys appreciate that semen retention, done wrong, produces all of the results opposite to those it was intended. That is, erodes health, erodes spiritual basis, erodes sexual capacity. As Max (I think) once said, "Its like eating food; its not how much you can eat, its how much you can digest".

Quote

Blake said something like, "the path of extremes is the way to wisdom."

By that philosophy, lighting one's self on fire, burning for a while, then taking a long bath in ice water would produce good health. I'll take the middle way, thank you.

[Yoda]

Trunk,

I'll be the first to admit that your knowledge base is deeper than mine...

But, is there really a danger here? If the taoboy overdoes it, won't he just have a wet dream to even out? I've heard some Hindu retention teachers say that wet dreams are the natural safety valve for the practice--that it's self regulating that way.

Like with other powerful practices like standing and sungazing, I think it's a good idea to be respectful of them--if you overdo it, you can overload your circuits and get into serious psychological and physical trouble. That doesn't mean that standing is bad or even that hours of standing a day is bad, but that level of practice will destroy a normal person. If you want to advance, you have to turn up the heat. Just do so slowly. If it doesn't feel good, don't do it.

Thanks for stepping into the debate!

-Yoda

[MatthewQi]

Trunk, on Sep 12 2005, 10:24 AM, said:

Matt and Yoda,

My original post was really prompted by reading everyone's comments in thelerner's personal practice thread (end of Aug posts), in which several people mentioned that retaining aroused jing made them horny all the time, "constantly sexually rev'd".  I agree that that's fun sometimes (but not all the time), and I agree that jing is a fuel (that can be used well, and/or that people get burned).

My point is that, by constantly sexually rev'ed there's this:
1. The attention, psyche and body is driven outward.
2. Its an intense dualistic experience.  That is, there is me wanting that, out there.
3. 1&2 are constant, and powerful. ie, "constantly sexually rev'ed".

Now, you may circulate jing, save it, refine it to some moderate degree, but I'd still say that the above is FORWARD (by the qualities that I've put in bold).. (unless you refine deeply enough, then it becomes "reverse").

REVERSE is driven by a process of:
Gathering energy and attention deeply inward, steadily, in a way that resolves into non-duality.  If you just contrast the bold words just here, and up there: forward and reverse.  Reverse is the process that, over the long term, gives the whole process real power and stability.  Its what brings you from the 10,000 things to The One Place.  To me, that's a really important .. well, its the point of cultivation.  (And I want to do it in a way that is good for my health, life, and sexuality.)  Maybe you guys aren't interested in that, I don't know.

"Reverse", in this sense, interupts the cycle of outward desire.  Its not that its not pleasurable.  There is some pleasure in the process, but there isn't outward grasping of attention.

I'm not saying that forward is "bad", that you have to give it up entirely (not that any of us are capable of that), nor any of that extreme stuff.  Only that being constantly sexually rev'd would seem to make it harder to turn inward easily, and so sabotages the whole point (or at least a very large point) of cultivation.  Do you guys find it to be a difficulty in that way?  Do you find yourself overly distracted from being horny all the time?  Or are you able to re-direct that force inwardly, still, when you want to, fluently and effectively?

It seems to me that if one's ability to turn inward is not sufficiently developed, then you don't have enough power to turn around the powerful fuel that you're saving - so that it ends up creating more trouble (from a buddhist stand-point).  But if you're deep-center (and all the physical and subtle layers leading in to that) is developed powerfully enough then that fuel gets drawn deeply inward, and used to further empower cultivation.  So, saving jing is both a powerful danger and a powerful opportunity.

And, of course, there are the more physical layers of: can you keep your tissues supple, your fluids well blended, and your channels open and free of clogs.  Which is all a lot of work in itself.

Trunk

Trunk,

Now I understand the context of where you were coming from and cuncur with what you are saying.

Matt