[Trunk]

The below was pasted from my journal. JadeLily prompted me to start a public thread, I agree. Have at it.

NOTE: This is not intended to address an illness situation: if you're sick, see a doctor. This is intended for generally healthy people who want to gradually open all the channels as part of cultivation. And, it's not thoroughly tested. Experimental guinea-pig stage.

~~~

Ok, so I was just mulling my frustration over how f'in' long it's taking to learn the frickin' channels and I'm going to be an old man before I learn all this sh*t and there has to be a faster way (than reading through Deadman's manual pt by pt which will take yrs & yrs to pull it together at this rate).

I have this rubber acupuncture doll that a friend gave me yrs ago.
(edit: link is broken. Search amazon for "acupuncture model". These are rubber models on a stand, about 20 inches high, with channels and pts molded into the rubber, labels for pt names, for around US$40.)

Took it off it's stand and sat down with it and... strategy:
- just look where the channel goes on the doll and massage that channel on myself (especially the pts, obviously)
- use Todd's suggestion (and here) of pairing channel massage vis-a-vis "6 channel theory"

Bingo! That gives me a practical tool that I can use right away, without knowing (hardly) anything. Gives me a treatment + hands-on repetition of learning the channel trajectories.

Of course, I can still toil through Deadman's manual all I want - but at least I don't have to wait another minute to get started on a practical use-it basis. Sh*t-howdy!

6 channel pairings, noted nicely by vortex:

vortex, on Feb 25 2009, 11:20 AM, said:

Taiyin (greater yin) = Lung (arms) + Spleen (legs)
Shaoyin (lesser yin) = Heart (arms) + Kidney (legs)
Jueyin (absolute yin) = Pericardium (arms) + Liver (legs)
Taiyang (greater yang) = Small Intestine (arms) + Bladder (legs)
Shaoyang (lesser yang) = Triple Warmer (arms) + Gallbladder (legs)
Yangming (yang brightness) = Large Intestine (arms) + Stomach (legs)

... also talked about on pg 15 of Deadman's Manual of Acupuncture.

~ and from a later journal post ~
Well, I felt like I wanted a change of pace from massaging the 6 channels. Not a stop, but just a little break for evening-out and I wanted to continue acupressure. What to do? Decided to take up the listing of pts in Essential Shiatsu of the confluent pts of each of the 8 extra channels.

SmI-3: governing vessel
L-7: conception vessel
BL-62: yang motility vessel
K-6: yin motility vessel
Sp-4: penetrating vessel
GB-41: girdling vessel
P-6: yin linking vessel
SJ-5: yang linking vessel

p.s.
If someone feels inclined to quote & link those pts to yinyanghouse.com or acuxo.com or where-ever, please have at it. Yet another plug: If you're able to get Deadman's Manual, the pt location graphics there are quite stellar, and every page of the text "crackles with brilliance".

This post has been edited by Trunk: 15 March 2009 - 04:50 AM

[mat black]

Important topic trunk.
One of my teachers, in his first stage lessons emphasises daoyin and accupoint massage on the meeting points.
This is to be learned before any type of qi gathering forms. The reason is simple. Open channels and improved posture allow qi to flow smoothly and be stored safely.

[NeutralWire]

Good thought on the eight extraordinary channels points too. NW

[cheya]

(Reposted here from Trunk's journal)

QUOTE(idquest @ Mar 13 2009, 11:15 PM)
"I have been massaging these 8 points for a while....I have a feeling that some energy is being redistributed inside the body. That is there is no new infow of energy just redistribution of the energy that I had had. The consequence of that is that the parts of the body that used to have more energy feel a lack of it....Anybody has had such a feeling?"


Hi idquest,
About ten days after I started working with the 8 points, my lower tantien practice sort of deflated. I stopped the 8 points for awhile, and then came back to it. Now both practices are steaming along together quite nicely. I'm not sure the tantien deflation was related to the 8 points, but I think it was. It did occur to me that the 8 point practice might not stand so well alone, and that intentional chi gathering would help, especially at stressful times when chi gets drained more.

Heading off in another direction... Each Confluent point (aka Master point) has another associated point called its Coupled point, which is the Confluent point of another Extraordinary vessel. These points (Master and Coupled points) are often used together. Often the Master point on one side, and its Coupled point on the other side. In Jerry Alan Johnson's tome (Chinese Medical Qigong Therapy, p 211), he says to contact the Master point first, and then the Coupled point. To end, release the Coupled point first. Johnson says doing that opens the vessel of the Master point. For example, contact SI3 (Gov vessel Master point), and then BL62 (Yang heel/motility Confluent point, which is the Coupled point for the Gov vessel), hold them for awhile, and then release BL 62 before releasing SI3. Johnson says this opens the Governor vessel. (Johnson does not specify using opposite sides.)

Jin Shin Do and Jin Shin Jytsu (extraordinary or strange flow practices) both use two points or contacts at a time. A friend just did an e-stim course, and they were using two point contacts on the body at the same time too. The idea is a circuit. You're running energy or at least connecting an energetic circuit between the two points. I've often noticed a faster chi response when my non-working hand happened to be resting somewhere on my body.

Another thing to try. One of my acupressure-for-pain books said to press each point 20-30 times. Back then it just seemed that would take forever, and I put that book away. Now that I'm more sensitive to the actual chi flow, I notice that most points need that much stimulation to fire up. (I got the book out again.) So how about pressing the Master and Coupled points 20-30 times each separately, and then connecting the circuit described above?

I'd love to hear feedback if anybody plays with the circuits...

Adeha

[Ya Mu]

We do a self-acupressure closing at the end of our qigong.
But here is the thing, self acupressure will never be as powerful as that done by an informed/cultivated practitioner. The two main reasons are that we are at the same energy potential as ourselves and we are subjective instead of objective in what we are doing. The main reason is there is no energy potential delta.

This post has been edited by Ya Mu: 15 March 2009 - 10:34 AM

[Scotty]

Quote

The main reason is there is no energy potential delta.

What does this mean?

[Ya Mu]

Scotty, on Mar 15 2009, 10:50 AM, said:

What does this mean?

Don't know why I added that. Delta is the potential difference.
Since true acupressure is an energy system a person holding a point on themselves has no energy difference to do the work. The amount of energy input by simply holding a point is minimal compared to when someone else who has cultivated qi and understands the energy flows holds that same point.

[Trunk]

cheya, on Mar 15 2009, 09:23 AM, said:

QUOTE(idquest ... consequence of that is that the parts of the body that used to have more energy feel a lack of it....Anybody has had such a feeling?"

Hi idquest,
About ten days after I started working with the 8 points, my lower tantien practice sort of deflated. .. related to the 8 points, but I think it was. It did occur to me that the 8 point practice might not stand so well alone, and that intentional chi gathering would help, especially at stressful times when chi gets drained more. ...

Idquest, Adeha,

The 8 extras are "deeper" than five element energy, such that they aren't 'felt' as much. The energy is drawn deep to replenish deep store-house, and so you don't feel it out and around in use.

Chia's basic intent with fusion was right, I think:
1) Fill & harmonize the five element energies, and
2) then go deep with it into the 8 extras.
~ Repeat. (Pace yourself, take time off, as you feel is appropriate.)

I've only started doing this 6 channel & 8 extra confluent pts very recently, but it strikes me (by results so far) that it's a much more real approach to addressing the organ energies as described by Chinese medicine (and Taoism). Not that people don't get benefit from meditating on their organs, becoming aware of them in a loving way - really important. But 5L meditation alone, imho, is far from fully addressing the task. Like I said, I've only been doing the full meridian massages for a little while, so I'm kind of being a big-mouth here, but the detoxing, the body-openings and harmonizing have all been way way more serious than any 5L meditation that I've done. (And, yeah, I know, everyone is different. It's all good.)

cheers,
Trunk

p.s. Adeha, I gotta re-read and read up on your info. Thanks!

This post has been edited by Trunk: 15 March 2009 - 12:13 PM

[idquest]

cheya, on Mar 15 2009, 09:23 AM, said:

It did occur to me that the 8 point practice might not stand so well alone, and that intentional chi gathering would help, especially at stressful times when chi gets drained more.

How would you gather more chi intentially, holding the tree? LTT breathing?

Quote

Jin Shin Do and Jin Shin Jytsu (extraordinary or strange flow practices) both use two points or contacts at a time.

Totally agree. The problem for me is that I do it myself, so it is hardly possible to stimulate two points at the time. How do you manage to do that?

Quote

pressing the Master and Coupled points 20-30 times each separately, and then connecting the circuit described above?

Will try that.

Trunk, on Mar 15 2009, 01:11 PM, said:

The 8 extras are "deeper" than five element energy, such that they aren't 'felt' as much. The energy is drawn deep to replenish deep store-house, and so you don't feel it out and around in use.

Chia's basic intent with fusion was right, I think:
1) Fill & harmonize the five element energies, and
2) then go deep with it into the 8 extras.
~ Repeat. (Pace yourself, take time off, as you feel is appropriate.)

I would just add that in his Lesser Kan\Li practice, M. CHia adds steaming of 14 meridians thus bringing the fusion to its logical conclusion. I understand his take is that 14 meridians can be addressed effectively with high quality energy - steam.
I remember Dao Zhen saying that in his system they open 14 meridians during the first couple of weeks. Hard to reconcile but who knows.

[cheya]

idquest, on Mar 15 2009, 11:06 PM, said:

How would you gather more chi intentially, holding the tree? LTT breathing?
... The problem for me is that I do it myself, so it is hardly possible to stimulate two points at the time. How do you manage to do that?

Hi idquest,
Best way for me to gather chi is what I call chi walking, drawing earth/sky energy in as I walk and circulating it. I remember holding the tree was pretty good too, but I often felt tired after doing it. I also do LTT breathing in bed in the morning to charge up for the day. Probably everybody is different.

Stimulating two paired confluent points at the same time by yourself is definitely a challenge! Some of the pairs are doable if you use the stimulated hand to do stimulating(depending of course on how flexible you are!). I really haven't done this much myself, been working with the points one by one, or doing pairs with a friend. I'll experiment and let you know. One possibility is a placeholder, something you tape to the point to hold the energetic charge while you stimulate the other point. Or some energetic tool that looks like a back scratcher! Or ion pumping cords... Anybody else got any ideas on this?

In the meantime, here's another article I found that speaks obliquely to your concern, and also deepened my understanding of the vessels. (This doesn't help with how to hold two points by yourself, but the author does talk about possible depletion in the article itself. The quote below is a protocol she developed to avoid depletion while you treat the vessel.)

Road Maps of Our Lives: Navigating the Eight Extraordinary Vessels

http://www.massageto...le.php?id=10276


"Since you can't hold all four points bilaterally (unless you are Shiva) I recommend holding the master point of the meridian you would like to affect (beginning on the right for women and on the left for men) with the master point of the couple vessel on the opposite side. Then hold the two coupled points, then the opposite master/ couple, then the two masters, ending with the original pair, each time holding for about a minute until you feel a pulse. So for the Ren Mai, use this sequence on a woman:
1. right Lu 7/ left Ki 6 (master for Ren Mai/Yin Ciao Mai)
2. both Ki 6's (left and right master Ren Mai points)
3. left Lu 7/ right Ki 6
4. both Lu 7's (left and right master Yin Ciao Mai points)
5. right Lu 7/ left Ki 6
Using this pattern of an infinity sign has a profoundly balancing affect on the meridian without depleting it. This is something you have to be particularly sensitive to with the EEVs because of the difficulty in replenishing our core essence."

[idquest]

cheya, on Mar 16 2009, 06:53 AM, said:

In the meantime, here's another article I found that speaks obliquely to your concern, and also deepened my understanding of the vessels. (This doesn't help with how to hold two points by yourself, but the author does talk about possible depletion in the article itself. The quote below is a protocol she developed to avoid depletion while you treat the vessel.)
Road Maps of Our Lives: Navigating the Eight Extraordinary Vessels
http://www.massageto...le.php?id=10276

Great article, thanks a lot. So they think that the extra channels could be depleted as well. Perhaps I should stop stimulating the channels haphazardly and adopt a more systematic approach.

What I can't understand is what is the primary wharehouse for chi: ordinary 14 meridians or 8 extra. If 14 meridians are the primary resource of energy, then by thrying to stimulate extra meridians we can do more harm than good. If for a normal activity we need some level of chi in the 14 meridians, would it be a good idea to divert some portion of it to 8 extra channels? One is for certain: one should build up more chi before stimulating the channels.

[bindo]

cheya, on Mar 16 2009, 05:53 AM, said:

"Since you can't hold all four points bilaterally (unless you are Shiva)

OM NAMAH SHIVAYA

[Trunk]

idquest, on Mar 16 2009, 08:45 PM, said:

What I can't understand is what is the primary wharehouse for chi: ordinary 14 meridians or 8 extra.

The ordinary 12 meridians are energy-in-use, like money in your pocket.
The 8 extraordinaries are deeper back-up energy, like money in the bank (that you've inherited and that you've saved).

If you're able to take care of all your needs and produce some more, then you can take some $ from your pocket and put it in the bank. Do that well, often, and your fortune will grow.

If you burn through the $ in your pocket and are constantly dipping into your bank account, you're going to gradually thin your reserves.

That help?

Trunk

[Vajrasattva]

2 tennis balls in a sock and place under GB 20's on both side as you lay down is VERY GOOD!

Santi

[idquest]

Trunk, on Mar 16 2009, 09:51 PM, said:

The ordinary 12 meridians are energy-in-use, The 8 extraordinaries are deeper back-up energy,

This is exactly my point. To function normally, our body needs some level of energy in 12 ordinary meridians. When we try to stimulate 8 extra meridians, some portion of energy is reallocated from ordinary to extraordinary channels. That might bring the level of energy in ordinary meridians to a point where it is lower than that required for a normal activity. One can feel depletion/exhaustion.

Now, we can stimulate extraordinary meridians both physically (acupressure/acupuncture) and mentally (meditation). So is there a chance that by meditating we can eventually run low on energy level because of that redistribution of energy?

I could be totally wrong though. My only confirmation for this is that I sometimes feel my energy running lower after meditation / stimulation of extra channels.

It looks like Trunk has been doing a better thing stimulating the ordinary meridians for starters.

[sunshine]

For all those interested in learning point location:

http://www.silencesp...;products_id=17

as well as the latest Deadman Manual on DVD... it has video clips showing location and way one would needle the points...

both highly recommended

keep in mind though that some acupuncture schools just consider these locations anatomical locations
but say that those would be like on an healthy body... with illness the meridians might change their pathway...

still. With acupressure one should always get the area

with smiles

Harry

[cheya]

idquest, on Mar 17 2009, 12:59 PM, said:

This is exactly my point. To function normally, our body needs some level of energy in 12 ordinary meridians. When we try to stimulate 8 extra meridians, some portion of energy is reallocated from ordinary to extraordinary channels. That might bring the level of energy in ordinary meridians to a point where it is lower than that required for a normal activity. One can feel depletion/exhaustion.
....So is there a chance that by meditating we can eventually run low on energy level because of that redistribution of energy?... My only confirmation for this is that I sometimes feel my energy running lower after meditation / stimulation of extra channels.

Hi idquest,
I'm new at all this extraordinary vessel stuff, so keep that in mind, but I have been reading a lot, and this is what I understand right now. Anybody who understands differently, please jump in!

I haven't read that the extraordinary channels would be induced to give up their energy into the regular meridians unless it was an emergency. I don't think just pressing the points would qualify. But by stimulating the points, we may redistribute the energy amongst the vessels. You may be especially sensitive to the redistribution. (Could your tiredness be telling you that youa ctually need some rest and recuperation?)

One article I read (pm me if you want me to drag it out) indicated that using the master-coupled protocol, the master point vessel would gain energy and the coupled point could be sedated. That means we may need to know more about which vessels need stimulation before we start doing master-coupled points. (Especially if we are successful!) However, the protocol from Essential Shiatsu is stimulating all the points, but not in the master/coupled protocol. I have a DVD in which master acupuncturist Miki Shima said he would only do one master-coupled pair in a session, especially with people who are run down. He might do two sets in high energy people, and would only do more than that in athletes. Now, remember, he's not talking about the Essential Shiatsu protocol, which I understand as just facilitating flow within the extravessel system, allowing it to respond however needed to the 12 regular meridians. Shima also talked about tonifying kidney energy before working the master coupled points, since the main extraordinary vessels are based in kidney energy.

Re using both hands to stimulate circuits— if you're not a contortionist, just try resting your non-working hand anywhere downstream stream on the meridian or vessel of the point you're working with, not necessarily on the coupled point.

Interesting acupoint. A friend just did an energy psychology seminar in which they made a big deal over the lymph point located 3 inches out from the center of the sternum and three inches down from the collar bone. They said to work around the general area and use the sorest point. Deadman reads like lymphatic effect would be more on the kidney channel, a little closer to the sternum (3 fingers out, not 3 inches). I've been using K 25, 26 and 27 preparatory to acupressure sessions and am very impressed. These points seem to activate the lymphatic system and open the emotions.

Any other acupressers have favorite/useful points?

Adeha

[Trunk]

I think after some experimentation, a few months, a year.. I'm curious as to how some of this has worked out for us then. Anyone who wants to bookmark this thread and contribute later, that'd be cool to have an occasional update/s here.

[vortex]

cheya, on Mar 19 2009, 09:41 AM, said:

Interesting acupoint. A friend just did an energy psychology seminar in which they made a big deal over the lymph point located 3 inches out from the center of the sternum and three inches down from the collar bone. They said to work around the general area and use the sorest point. Deadman reads like lymphatic effect would be more on the kidney channel, a little closer to the sternum (3 fingers out, not 3 inches). I've been using K 25, 26 and 27 preparatory to acupressure sessions and am very impressed. These points seem to activate the lymphatic system and open the emotions.

Any other acupressers have favorite/useful points?

Adeha

Donna Eden gives a great routine for hitting some key acupoints in her videos.
45tLuqMrup0
In fact, 2 of her main ones are the "heart points" under the clavicles just outside of K27 (5:20).

I like to hit both K26s or K25s with my middle finger and thumb at the same time using a "crab pincer" hand.

This post has been edited by vortex: 19 March 2009 - 03:35 PM

[cheya]

Trunk, on Mar 14 2009, 11:56 PM, said:

Decided to take up the listing of pts in Essential Shiatsu of the confluent pts of each of the 8 extra channels.

SmI-3: governing vessel
L-7: conception vessel
BL-62: yang motility vessel
K-6: yin motility vessel
Sp-4: penetrating vessel
GB-41: girdling vessel
P-6: yin linking vessel
SJ-5: yang linking vessel

James MacRitchie's version of working the Eight Extraordinary Vessel Master-Coupled Points

Found this by following Jesse's link to Extraordinary Vessel Qigong by James MacRitchie.
It includes a short discussion of the points, how they are integrated with the rest of his
Qigong system, which finger to use to stimulate the points (the middle), doing the points
with your mind only, and some different point sequences from the single one given
in "Essential Shiatsu."

http://globalqiproje...upledPoints.pdf

Adeha

This post has been edited by cheya: 07 April 2009 - 06:15 AM