[Lucky7Strikes]

-O-, on Jul 24 2009, 01:21 PM, said:

Halo around the practices yes - the teacher no.



In fact there are many things I find flawed with the teacher and his platitudes. However, in reconciling the conflict between what was working from the practices, and what was hindering from the guidance (and lack thereof) I came to some useful (for me) insights on "mind" in sort of an ontological sense. The initial posting regarding the creation of structures etc. was intended for one particular person on the forum who was acting out on some old patterns going back years. So without knowing that I can see how it would appear as a defence of the teacher.



I have over the years fluctuated between whether the insights gained because of the short comings I found in Max's platitudes was something that he set-up as the lesson - or whether my own dedication and persistence lead to turning these unfortunate events into something valuable. In either case there would not have been any growth without the practices and I strongly believe in the techniques he teaches because of my experience with them.



I no longer believe he intended these as lessons, but I am grateful for the having the tools to be able to move through these sorts of things to greater clarity; of which I have to give him credit - as he was the one who shared them with me.



I find most of the guidance I have received from Max to be fairly superficial. And I think for a lot of people it is enough to move them forward. I also think that there are people which tend to dig deeper then what the platitudes can provide and when these people have questioned Max (from a place of sincere inquiry) they have been labelled negative, hostile etc. and simply shut out. (Of course there have been some who are simply hostile though)



So be it. Every teacher has their level of commitment to their students. The error that I made was to assume that Max's commitment to my evolution was deeper then what it really was. If I had attended a weekend seminar I wouldn't have expected a commitment beyond the lessons of those few days - however this was not how it transpired, so deciphering committed was a little more muddled than that. What I have found is as soon as it became bothersome - he would threaten to shut it down. This has been my experience and I'm sure there are many people whose expereince is very different.



Every 'this' has it's 'that'...



Just to be clear - Max is a very generous person, and a good teacher - my intention is not to paint a totally negative view of him for other people... My experience has not always been beneficial. And I have spent years (seriously) processing through those experiences, taking responsibility etc. At some point I had to simply accept that not all of it was "me" - that he too had a role, was capable of error, and has his own flaws & limitations. This was something which I was VERY resistant to for years - but in the end it is far closer to reality than a teacher who is beyond reproach - and As I said the error I made was assuming a commitment from him which was not there. As a result I placed too much trust and influence in his hands, did so with out question - and I've learned from it.



You need to be the center of your own path, you are your own Mount Merru - if you place a teacher like Max at the center then you will face some responsibility issues. All your successes will be turned to gratitude and love of the teacher (teacher is responsible) and all your failures will be the shortcoming of the teacher (which is what people here have expressed). And in the end there will be issues with independence and empowerment...

Thank you for sharing this. Thank you, thank you.

I really think you should post this on the Kunlun forum too...but I have an inclination that you might not want to...

IMHO, anyone doing any sort of spiritual or energy work should really heed this post.

This post has been edited by Lucky7Strikes: 24 July 2009 - 09:49 AM

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This post has been edited by -O-: 25 August 2009 - 01:19 PM

[Satori]

Max never said he was perfect. He also teaches in ways that most people don't understand until waaay later.

Many people seek to find fault with a teacher, which because teachers are human, is not very difficult to do. The tools however are quite sound.

Max also never asked anyone to follow him. In fact, he beats it into your head that you are your own best teacher and flat out tells people NOT to follow him.

It is so important to him that people get the self-empowered thing that he has quit teaching publicly in order to force people to rely on themselves. People WERE getting too attached to him and he was not pleased with that.

The problem is that everybody wants someone to tell them all of the answers, but this is not part of the spontaneous system. Jenny will tell you the same. Her teacher gave it to her in one day and they NEVER spoke about it again.

So buck-up cowboys and girls. You are way more incredible than you think and if you learn to trust your feelings you will find the best answers to your questions by looking no further than the insides of your own eyelids.

[oceanside]

-O-, on Jul 24 2009, 09:21 AM, said:

What I have found is as soon as it became bothersome - he would threaten to shut it down. This has been my experience and I'm sure there are many people whose expereince is very different.

He does disappear when things get bothersome.

He kept telling me that he wasn't a teacher. I thought he was being modest
so didn't take him seriously but realize now he was telling the truth.

He also said he wanted to be a friend but then he kept disappearing when
things got bothersome.





How is Yoda doing? Does anyone know? How are his kids doing?

This post has been edited by oceanside: 24 July 2009 - 04:48 PM

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This post has been edited by -O-: 25 August 2009 - 01:20 PM

[Satori]

-O-, on Jul 24 2009, 06:07 PM, said:

I'm not seeking to find fault in anyone.

So, Satori, what is written on the insides of your eyelids?

Everything you write here comes from Max's lips. No?

I am honestly interested in the wisdom you have found from kl, independant of anyone elses influence.

I write from my own experiences. My experience with Max has been a mixed bag. He is both uber-wise holy man and a childish prankster.

What I got from it all was that I need to take responsibility for my own internal issues. That my confusion as to my true nature is best understood from relying on my own direct experiences. Forget everyone else at this point. Even the teacher.

I have learned to trust myself. I have learned to speak my truth and to be as conscious as possible in every moment. To be completely present when eating food: not thinking about the past and not thinking about the future (boy do you really taste the food then).

That we have two brains: one in the head and one in the heart. The one in the heart knows everything and the one in the head is the source of all confusion.

We are much greater than most of us understand at this time, and it is the journey of self-discovery that is our precious gift.

[Lucky7Strikes]

Satori, on Jul 24 2009, 09:36 PM, said:

I write from my own experiences. My experience with Max has been a mixed bag. He is both uber-wise holy man and a childish prankster.

What I got from it all was that I need to take responsibility for my own internal issues. That my confusion as to my true nature is best understood from relying on my own direct experiences. Forget everyone else at this point. Even the teacher.

I have learned to trust myself. I have learned to speak my truth and to be as conscious as possible in every moment. To be completely present when eating food: not thinking about the past and not thinking about the future (boy do you really taste the food then).

That we have two brains: one in the head and one in the heart. The one in the heart knows everything and the one in the head is the source of all confusion.

We are much greater than most of us understand at this time, and it is the journey of self-discovery that is our precious gift.

We, we, we...

What are you?

Trust yourself? Who are you? What are you trusting?

Mindfulness, trusting your own compassion....

I don't think you need to do Kunlun to understand these concepts.

I hope you genuinely start questioning into your own nature. No matter what experiences you go through, even if it means that you become an immortal or a god...

Without rooting out the false identity of the ego and anything called a self nature, you will forever be limited to your afflictions and discriminations.

I wish you the best.

[Satori]

Lucky7Strikes, on Jul 24 2009, 06:47 PM, said:

We, we, we...

What are you?

Trust yourself? Who are you? What are you trusting?

Mindfulness, trusting your own compassion....

I don't think you need to do Kunlun to understand these concepts.

I hope you genuinely start questioning into your own nature. No matter what experiences you go through, even if it means that you become an immortal or a god...

Without rooting out the false identity of the ego and anything called a self nature, you will forever be limited to your afflictions and discriminations.

I wish you the best.

I trust the feeling in my heart and that is a result of "genuinely" questioning my own nature. I have shredded my ego and even pushed it into some very uncomfortable places just to challenge it. I survived, it survived and I am happy.

I wish you the best too.

[Scotty]

Quote

How is Yoda doing? Does anyone know? How are his kids doing?

He's good, he said he'll be back in a couple months last time we talked.

[oceanside]

Scotty, on Jul 24 2009, 10:13 PM, said:

He's good, he said he'll be back in a couple months last time we talked.

Thank you for letting me know!

[oceanside]

Quote

Satori
post Yesterday, 05:19 PM
Post #72


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QUOTE(Trunk @ Jul 24 2009, 05:15 PM) *

Follow the link, silly.

Oh, I see. So, people are doing practices that open them up to perceive the Tao and they can't handle it?

"I got a glimpse of what is and it flipped me out, man!"

Did anyone get hurt? No.

So we are afraid of the boogy-man eh? Well, you wanted the direct experience with the Tao and that is what you got. It is pretty lineage-free actually. Every culture/tradition deals with these things.

We are afraid of what lies beyond our normal range of vision.

This is the Tao and a few people were open enough to perceive some of the beings who are ALWAYS present and curiously observing us. I'll admit, it does take some getting used to, but it ain't all reptiles. The range of "other" type of entities is virtually endless.

Mantra would tell me crazy stories and Kan too, and I didn't know what to believe. I eventually had my own experiences with multi-dimensional beings and it forced me to adjust to a greater understanding of what is.

Don't be scared, you can always tell the things you perceive in your room to fuck off and they have no choice but to listen. They see us as royalty (sovereign kings) and they must respect our will.


--------------------
Trust yourself.

This is the response from a Kunlun person further along on the path to someone experiencing troubles. Is this what happens to people who practice Kunlun? I’ve come across to many who behave in the same way not to have started paying attention to it.

Did you ask Yoda if anyone got hurt?

I could have used some of the advice found here (post #277 and post #156) at the first seminar I attended and feel it should have most definitely been provided when I asked for it. Far too many people are going along with things that they think are divine but instead could very well be polluted and no one is stepping in to tell them how to deal with it.

You accuse Trunk of fear mongering but instead it is not having been provided information like this that has created it. The tools are not sound and what happened to Yoda is a perfect example of that. This situation as well as all others could have been cleared up immediately.

I no longer want any part of it if it means this is the way we respond towards each other, not if Trust yourself equals this kind of in general fuck off attitude to everyone. Everyone and everything deserves respect even if it's a demon of your mind. You can learn from all of it if it's taught properly. There can be an end to students of this practice feeding others with information that is not always correct. The tools are not sound.

I don't want this anymore, no one has shown me the good stuff of what happens with all of this, not one of you have shown me that and I haven't noticed positive changes in myself, that have benefitted me or more importantly anyone else.

That's what I came here to say.

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This post has been edited by -O-: 25 August 2009 - 01:21 PM

[Trunk]

People ask if anyone got hurt, or assert that no one got hurt. Again, I'm rather astonished. If you read the links, you'd know that...

There was a situation where negative reptilian entities were harassing Yoda and those in his home, including children - and stubbornly wouldn't go away... Yoda had to find extraordinary outside help to get the entities to leave - and it took a while. And, he said that he had talked to "more than a dozen" kunluners who had problems with negative entities - at least one other had the problem of entities bothering others in the household. Isn't that enough?!?! to define "harm"?!?! Jeez!, who are you people?!?

So, we know that there is a trend in the KL school that this sort of thing happens. Let's look towards the future. What about parents that took, will take, KL seminars after this trend became known? If I were a father and I took a seminar and later my kids started having "reptile trouble" and I found out that it was a known trend in the KL school and no one warned me before-hand?!?! What if a parent (seminar participant) had a child at home with emotional/developmental troubles? What if a parent had an infant, too young to talk, in the house? ... or if a wife in pregnancy? What sort of minds disregard thinking through these simple predictable situations?... and deflect, diminish their significance?

This post has been edited by Trunk: 25 July 2009 - 07:51 AM

[oceanside]

-O-, on Jul 25 2009, 07:20 AM, said:

I've not seen posts from anyone very far along the Kunlun path. I also believe the one can attain allot of bliss, compassion, extraordinary experience - without achieving allot of genuine spiritual or emotional maturity. There's allot of regurjitated words/concepts from the inner circle. I think you might be confusing the two things which leads the contradiction that the people who are outspoken are somewhat further along. Truth is the ones who are further along are not going post unless driven to

I can't say I understand completely the situations you are refering to - how could they have been cleared up immediatly? It sounds like you have some thoughts on this.

One of the flaws that I have found with the guidance is... one hand there is non-duality, one law etc... on the other hand there is the positivity - negativity idea. Truth is it is all one energy, all one substance. It can be course, thick or it can be refined, free flowing. When I began KL there was allot of sadness - I mean an unbearable amount. As I continued the sadness turned to anguish, then to tender vulnerability, then humility, then compassion. It is a very raw experience. The experience moved from a very rough, raw, slow moving ache and began to transmute, slowly at first, into a more refined opened free flowing experience. It moved from the seemingly negative - to the seemingly positive. I don't think of events, attitudes, emotions in this positive/negative light anymore - but rather the experience as it is for me at the moment. In opening up to the experience of life, with a kindness to myself and a sincerity then these experiences begin to change. At any moment the mind will try to attach meaning, give form to the experience and at times this form as been big and ugly - other times grand and beautiful. And every time the form has been false, illusion, delusion etc. and never if I willing accepted the form over the raw experience then everything stopped. It stopped as soon as I drew a conclusion, formed an opinion, said "this is it", focussed on it as real.

I see from the posts here (which is very limited information thus could be off base) KL'ers which have either grabbed onto the positive (life is so wonderful, blissful all the time, extraordinary experiences etc.) or pushed at the negative (demons, illness, etc.) And in both cases it has stopped any maturity. Life is life, living is not limited to only the positive - to do this, to have this as a goal is limiting - it limits your experience of life and self. What I have experienced of Max and allot of his students is an aversion to the "negative" - and avoidance and refusal to deal with anything "negative". It's their choice and I respect that, however I find this is lost opportunity, and not a full embrace of experience and life.

How can you be fully "opened up" yet still push aside, avoid anything you find course, bothersome, negative? How can greater clarity of awareness be achieved by the rational and reasons to do this? You simply can't. I tended to do this at the beginning as well until two things came up for me 1) I was protecting my "bliss" 2) if this "bliss" was based in reality it would not be harmed or diminished by any "negative" situation. Bliss has come and gone, and that is okay too. We are all extraordinary - not because of some achieved magnetic body, or potential we might achieve energetically - We are extraordinary as we are today, there is such a beauty in even the worst of feelings and experiences - when your available to life.

The fuck off attitude, and general arrogance ( or rather feigned humility) is not a result of the technique - it is a result of relationship to and attempted emulation of - the teacher. Please don't confuse the two.

Agreed, although you can learn from all of it if approached properly. If you approach these practices having in mind that some positive change to the self, experiencing other worlds, of gaining abilities etc is the goal. Then progress will be precarious. Just a note - a person can gain extremely extraordinary abilities with very little maturity. Extraordinary world and beings - in there essence are illusory. In the entire field of awareness - weigh all things equally, no thing of greater or lesser importance - aware of all with equanimity.

Don't confuse the students on either side of this situation with the tool.

I truely feel your pain and wish all the best through this tough time. Perhaps there should be a "kunluners in exile" forum :-)

Thank you for responding to my comments.

This post has been edited by oceanside: 25 July 2009 - 08:06 AM

[oceanside]

-O-, on Jul 25 2009, 07:20 AM, said:

I've not seen posts from anyone very far along the Kunlun path. I also believe the one can attain allot of bliss, compassion, extraordinary experience - without achieving allot of genuine spiritual or emotional maturity.

Just a note - a person can gain extremely extraordinary abilities with very little maturity. Extraordinary world and beings - in there essence are illusory. In the entire field of awareness - weigh all things equally, no thing of greater or lesser importance - aware of all with equanimity.

I agree with this.

I've not pushed away the negative and have noted that some others haven't either. The questions have always been whether interaction with all of it was in the practicioner's best interest.

You've experienced the entities then? Voices? Visions? Abilities? Corresponded and dialogued with it and used it as guidance on your path? Or have you looked at it all as illusory and said no thanks?

I ask because it's really easy to write what you've written when you haven't. Genuine guidance from those who have lived it and have found a middle way would have been appreciated.

This post has been edited by oceanside: 25 July 2009 - 08:15 AM

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This post has been edited by -O-: 25 August 2009 - 01:21 PM

[oceanside]

-O-, on Jul 25 2009, 08:11 AM, said:

Yes - and at first there was scary stuff - and other time I thought the most ridiculously outrageous stuff as well. But I had to acknowledge that my reaction to the events where causing more confusion/delusion than anything else.

When I sought out the expereince it occurred and was useless and problematic. When stumped and not knowing how to deal with it - I simply acknowledged the event and carried on. At this point there was growth and guidance that came - very subtle - never "WOW"ish. And only after I acknowledge that some of it was real - some of it was not - But the knowledge and wisdom which came has been very helpful and very subtle. Only after the form was stripped from the information and after I placed a value on reality testing. I can't test wether the person sitting infront of me is real or not - so I carry on - I can however test whether the techniques and insights given from them are valid or not - by reality testing.
So do I consider the beings which appear as real? No. Do I consider them illusion? No. I can't test the reality of it so I simply don't know. I have gained from the expereince so I don't reject it all as false.

Some engaged all of it and still do and not in any kind of a testing way.

There's always been an arrogant attitude in regards to answers to questions regarding it, that we were too scared and would just "pee and poo our pants" and that somehow we couldn't or wouldn't be able to handle any of it. That's why I say that any fear around this wasn't created by the students but came right from those teaching it. There attitude suggested to me at least that they all knew something I didnd't and that I should indeed fear it.

I consider having guidance in regards to something like this as a necessary tool and because it was missing it might possibly be the reason why so many people get so attached to the experiences, the teacher and the other students etc.

This post has been edited by oceanside: 25 July 2009 - 08:58 AM

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This post has been edited by -O-: 25 August 2009 - 01:22 PM

[oceanside]

-O-, on Jul 25 2009, 09:20 AM, said:

I guess... my intention is not point fingers or bash KL or Max. Not at all. I agree about some hindrances - I think we both do. I came to this without guidance - I came to it because I didn't give up or give in- I questioned my intentions, motivations (not my inherent nature). So I post hoping to bring some clarity to others (as I don't have many answers) - and hope that others can find a new - or re-newed opportunity in their practices. One which will carry them past these hidrances.

I get that the behaviour and words from others has hurt and hindered. Focussing on this - looking for apologies etc. this doesn't serve you well. It is a matter of distinguishing what is guidance and what is not. Something said could really help one person - be meaningless to another - and hinder some one else. If you find guidance that is not helpful then a greater clarity can come from working through that - actually much more benefit is found from that then from answers to questions. Holding onto the regret or remorse doesn't help anyone. I don't want to participate in that.

With regret and remorse there is an chance to move through into deeper expereinces of forgivness, greater clarity around empowerment, distinction of what a real result is (rather than what you are hearing from others). Some people take two steps forward and find everything they are looking for, others have to walk a mile and it is still not enough, doesn't answer the deep longing. At the end of it all who do you think will have the deeper understanding, the lasting compassion, the clarity of reality. Those that have to walk farther learn allot more, OWN their advancement, can stand on thier own, understand true humility, have compassion based in awareness (not intellect), make huge changes in the world WITHOUT extrodinary abilities - but by who they have become.

Not everyone has responded to these teachers words the same way - not everyone has felt the fear, but some have. It simply comes down to this - those teachers did not have all the answer, or right string of words, for us who have hit on these issues. But to us that have hit this - when worked through- will have the answers for others.

Here are two quotes from another teach of mine.

"Everything in this work is imagination until proven otherwise".

When he approached his teacher, having felt very discouraged - not feeling any advancement. His teacher said:

"What I am hearing from you is that you do not want this - where is your passion, your deep desire for the divine? How much do you want this?"

Your deep longing to progress is the fuel for these practices. How have these events helped or hindered that deep longing?

I don't want you to think I'm positioning myself above or beyond anyone else - it was my dedication and commitment to my own growth which saw me through these same issues - without guidance from anyone else. If I hadn't then I would still have the arrogant drama - the rejurgitations of Max's words - the drama and excitement of reptiles - feeling so much more advanced then the mindless grey masses (yet having a tremendous amount of compassion as I looked down on them) - and the assumption that divinity is something out there to be achieved at the other end of the "process" which I have now achieved. But instead I let that go and I felt betrayed, hurt, passed over - then regret, loss, failure - then clarity, forgiveness, humility - then landed in a place which is far more real, deeper and worth while then anything that was available in the dramas of lamas, tulkus and aliens.

Thank you. You offer me the first glimmer of positive change that's
potentially possible with this practice.

[joeblast]

hm...let's not forget that if you cultivate in a direction, things of that direction will manifest. Yoda was very intrigued by entities, be they alien, reptile, whatever...and more or less looked for them...and he found what he was looking for in that direction. whether it was desirable and what he really objectively wanted, well, that's another story as some of us know.

Quote

Keep your thoughts positive because your thoughts become your words. Keep your words positive because your words become your behaviours. Keep your behaviours positive because your behaviours become your habits. Keep your habits positive because your habits become your values. Keep your values positive because your values become your destiny.

Quote not to say dont go muddin' in the woods...but if you muddin', best be driving a jeep with some big knobby wheels instead of the convertible. You choose your vehicle before entering the situation.

phil anselmo on dime @ concert said:

"I dont understand 'im....nobody understands 'im......dimebonics"