[thuscomeone]

Not too long ago I re read the famous Zhuangzi butterfly passage. It really got me thinking this time about the nature of the mind.

"Once I, Chuang Tzu, dreamed I was a butterfly and was happy as a butterfly. I was conscious that I was quite pleased with myself, but I did not know that I was Tzu. Suddenly I awoke, and there was I, visibly Tzu. I do not know whether it was Tzu dreaming that he was a butterfly or the butterfly dreaming that he was Tzu. Between Tzu and the butterfly there must be some distinction. [But one may be the other.] This is called the transformation of things."

After I read this, I PM'ed goldisheavy because what reading this passage got me thinking about was very close to some things that goldisheavy often talks about on this forum. One thing in particular actually - meaning and the unfixed nature of meaning. I think that a lot of us feel that the main function of the mind is to find a perfect, unchanging, fixed "way things are" in reality. For instance, some of us may say that reality or the universe works through dependent origination with dependent origination being defined as specifically "this" and not "that." And the universe doesn't work any other way.

Now, the meaning of dependent origination can change at a whim, can it not? If all of a sudden, we decided to say that dependent origination actually meant that we are all parts in the body of an eternal god, would this new definition be inferior to the typical one? I don't see why not. It would only be inferior if one were to believe that meaning is fixed and there is only one correct, absolute meaning. But meaning is obviously not fixed as just demonstrated. It is fluid, pliable, flexible, etc. This brings in the possibility of seeing the mind as an artist, a painter, a creator instead of a rigid instrument. Think of the world or reality like a blank canvas. The mind then is an artist which paints on the canvas using meaning/words/symbols/thoughts. In this sense, the mind does not discover an existing fixed reality or way things are. Instead, it creates the way things are. And it can change it's creation or paint a new picture at any time. I think this opens up limitless realms of possibility and I think, in a sense, it is true freedom.

Relating this back to Zhuangzi, the meaning of the passage, to me, is that Zhuangzi and the butterfly are not fixed in nature. Zhuangzi can be anything and the butterfly can be anything. They can be one in the same or completely different. It is all up to the mind, to the artist.

[Marblehead]

Hi Thuscomeone,

Nice thoughts. Let's look at Lin Yutang's translation of that:

Once upon a time, I, Chuang Chou (18), dreamt I was a butterfly, fluttering hither and thither, to all intents and purposes a butterfly. I was conscious only of my happiness as a butterfly, unaware that I was Chou. Soon I awaked, and there I was, veritably myself again. Now I do not know whether I was then a man dreaming I was a butterfly, or whether I am now a butterfly, dreaming I am a man. Between a man and a butterfly there is necessarily a distinction. The transition is called the transformation of material things (19).

(18) - Personal name of Chuangtse. "tse" being the equivalent of "Master."
(19) - An important idea that recurs frequently in Chuangtse, all things are in constant flow and change, but are different aspects of the One.

So yes, I would agree with you in that what is 'real' and 'fixed' at the moment is only a temporary condition. "The Transformation of Things" is the concept of change - not creation and destruction because there really is no creation or destruction, only the condition of change; the transformation of things.

And I suppose that one could say that this is the concept of "dependent origination" in that the change (origination) is dependent on countless variables.

However, I don't think I could take this to where you took it in that these changes are a result of some mind (cognitive thought). I think that doing so would imply some god-head making conscious decisions. I will never associate Tao with anything similar to the Christian concept of "God".

Peace & Love!

[rain]

"constant" and "fluctuating"

concepts
mental I related
paradoxes

[Marblehead]

rain, on Nov 14 2009, 11:32 AM, said:

"constant" and "fluctuating"

concepts
mental I related
paradoxes

Hi Rain,

Yes, in Taoism, at first glance, there are many paradoxes in the teaching. But if we take the time to view the concepts at a closer range we find that they really are not paradoxes but rather just the way reality is.

There are no constants except for change (the processes).

Peace & Love!

[rain]

Marblehead, on Nov 14 2009, 12:12 PM, said:

Hi Rain,

Yes, in Taoism, at first glance, there are many paradoxes in the teaching. But if we take the time to view the concepts at a closer range we find that they really are not paradoxes but rather just the way reality is.
ahhhahahaha..[size=6]
There are no constants except for change (the processes).

Peace & Love!

teaching is really funny.


no. not in taoism.
but out of the now.
as we are "dealing" with this "reality" filled with paradoxes.

cooking there is no such

[TzuJanLi]

Greetings..

Pondering the 'dream' of a butterfly? wasted time, it was a dream.. you wake to the verifiable continuum of existence.. Life asks for your full presence and attention, not fantasy imaginings of passing dreams.. if the dream was an actual experience with the unified consciousness, its message will not involve imagining or speculation, it will apply directly to the continuum of existence..

The whole dream within a dream and butterflies that can't decide what they are thingy, has posed more obstacles to pure Clarity tham is barely imaginable.. the inclination to diminish the value of Life in favor of imaginary conjurings or poetic musings is not a result of Clarity..

Be well..

[Baguakid]

Last week, wednesday night I dreamed in Spanish (I am not spanish), I said "open the window" in Spanish when someone told me the three people inside looked like they had died. I said open the window and they will be ok. They opened the window and all was ok.

The next day I went to the outside market to buy vegetables. The man I bought two eggplants from was eating a taco and could not speak English and I wanted to know where he bought the taco as it looked very tasty. As much as I tried to speak Spanish to him I could not. It all came out Chinese.

[mYTHmAKER]

Isn’t it odd?

If something
comes
in a dream
we
say
wow!,
wonder
of
wonders!,
and
accept it
as
a sign
from above
and
as being
revealed;

Isn’t it true?

And
have you
ever
wondered
why
we deny
all
that we are
and
all
that we have
in this
so called
waking state?

The dilemma is:

Am I Chuang Tzu
dreaming
I’m a butterfly
or
a butterfly
dreaming
I’m Chuang Tzu ?

Don’t you know?
It’s really so simple.

Chuang Tzu,
the butterfly,
you
and
I,
all are God.

[Marblehead]

Baguakid, on Nov 14 2009, 06:46 PM, said:

Last week, wednesday night I dreamed in Spanish (I am not spanish), I said "open the window" in Spanish when someone told me the three people inside looked like they had died. I said open the window and they will be ok. They opened the window and all was ok.

The next day I went to the outside market to buy vegetables. The man I bought two eggplants from was eating a taco and could not speak English and I wanted to know where he bought the taco as it looked very tasty. As much as I tried to speak Spanish to him I could not. It all came out Chinese.

Perfect example of a delusion. I suggest that for most people their dreams are delusions in that although there may be elements of their past reality (memories) the dream, in its entirity cannot ever be reality.

If you cannot speak a word of Spanish then it your dream you never really spoke Spanish, you only had a delusion that you spoke Spanish.

For Chuang Tzu the delusion was of being a butterfly. He really never was, not will 'he' ever be a butterfly.

Peace & Love!

mYTHmAKER, on Nov 14 2009, 09:13 PM, said:

Don’t you know?
It’s really so simple.

Chuang Tzu,
the butterfly,
you
and
I,
all are God.

Now this is an arguement I have never been able to negate. This is because of my understanding of the effect 'universal' Chi has on all of us. Chi permeates all things and all non-things. Therefore we are all connected through the energy of Chi. I don't like to use the word "God" in this regard be we are all One in that we are all a part of the Totality.

Peace & Love!

[Baguakid]

Actuallly, Marblehead, I spoke basic spanish when I was in my 20s since I was around many spanish speaking people at that time. Later, I started learning Chinese and now I speak Chinese much, much better than I ever could Spanish (oh, I also took a college course in Spanish way back then). So, the dream is valid.

Now, however, I have difficulty remembering Spanish because I've concentrated so much on Chinese in the last 8 years or so.

What I was saying was in the dream Spanish came out freely but while awake, Chinese was dominant.

This post has been edited by Baguakid: 15 November 2009 - 03:11 AM

[Marblehead]

Baguakid, on Nov 15 2009, 06:08 AM, said:

Actuallly, Marblehead, I spoke basic spanish when I was in my 20s since I was around many spanish speaking people at that time. Later, I started learning Chinese and now I speak Chinese much, much better than I ever could Spanish (oh, I also took a college course in Spanish way back then). So, the dream is valid.

Now, however, I have difficulty remembering Spanish because I've concentrated so much on Chinese in the last 8 years or so.

What I was saying was in the dream Spanish came out freely but while awake, Chinese was dominant.

Hehehe. See? You gotta' tell me the whole truth when you tell me the truth else I will become delusional.

Yes, I can totally understand why the Spanish was there in your dream.

Your comments above recalled a memory of mine I will share.

I was stationed in Italy. This is after I had spent 4 1/2 years in Germany and learned to speak German pretty well. While in Italy I was trying to learn Italian. Anyhow, four of us were selected to take training at a school in Germany. I drove my car, the others rode with me. We were in Switzerland (where German is the primary language) and it was time for supper so we stopped and the others decided that I would order for all of them as I spoke German.

We sat at a table and the waitress came to us. My first statement to the waitress ended up coming out in a mixture of English, German and Italian. We all laughed like crazy. I finally got my mind straightened out and spoke German with the waitress the rest of the evening.

Peace & Love!