Subtle body anatomy of tan tiens and chakras ...

[sean]

Arrggghhg..... I remember this site I had bookmarked a few years ago that had a pretty detailed breakdown of various phenomenon of the subtle body and I've been searching for it for like two hours and I can't find it anywhere. One of the things I remember was that the author felt that tan tiens and chakras are referring to very different things ... possibly that they even existed in different bodies or planes, I forget his exact cosmology. I vaguely remember he referred to Tan Tiens as being more like batteries / storage centers whereas chakras were vortexes of some sort. I dunno. It was interesting but dense and I liked returning to every so often but I can't find it anywhere now.

 

Anyone remember this page? It got posted on HT a few times over the years.

 

Oh well, even if you don't have the link, what do you think? Do you find chakras and tan tiens to be descriptions of basically the same subtle body phenomenon? Or are they different, and if so how?

 

Thanks,

Sean

[affenbrot]

Arrggghhg..... I remember this site I had bookmarked a few years ago that had a pretty detailed breakdown of various phenomenon of the subtle body and I've been searching for it for like two hours and I can't find it anywhere. One of the things I remember was that the author felt that tan tiens and chakras are referring to very different things ... possibly that they even existed in different bodies or planes, I forget his exact cosmology. I vaguely remember he referred to Tan Tiens as being more like batteries / storage centers whereas chakras were vortexes of some sort. I dunno. It was interesting but dense and I liked returning to every so often but I can't find it anywhere now.

 

Anyone remember this page? It got posted on HT a few times over the years.

 

Oh well, even if you don't have the link, what do you think? Do you find chakras and tan tiens to be descriptions of basically the same subtle body phenomenon? Or are they different, and if so how?

 

Thanks,

Sean

 

a random guess: wingmakers

 

I remember Barabara Ann Brennan describes the dantian structure as a different plane than the chakra system,

some of her texts are copied at the above site....

 

affenbrot

[neimad]

i have found from my own study that it all ties together, and very much with the gross physical body too.

 

this has been linked to in taoist works as the chakras corresponding with the endocrine system.

i feel that the tan tiens tie in with the nervous system. the sites of the major tan tiens are also the sites of large nerve ganglia (one in the gut for regulation of the intestines, one in the heart area for regulation of heart beat etc, and of course one in the brain) each of these three ganglia have roughly the same amount of neurons. we literally have a brain in our gut and one in our heart.

 

the subtle or the energy body is what animates the physical, it's what causes the blood to flow through the veins, the nerve impulses to run, the hormones to move, the digestion, etc, etc ,etc.

 

in my studies of scientology (i am NOT a scientologist by any means.... i'm not an anything, but a me) they outline this clearly breaking it up into three distinct but overlapping areas that cause this physical existance.

 

there is the body (gross physical body), there is the genetic entity/GE (subtle body, energy body) and there is the thetan (soul, consciousness, the thing that is sitting in the passenger seat driving the body).

 

just some thoughts...

[sean]

affenbrot, yeah I found that one in my search but I don't think was it. And I remember it being a little different than Brennan's work somehow (although I like her distinctions a lot). Thanks though. For anyone unfamilar, here is a cool overview of her unique take on chakras.

 

neimad, that is a really cool distinction ... chakras corresponding to endocrine system and tan tiens corresponding to nervous system. I'd never heard that before. It helps ground subtle body anatomy with something observable in the gross body anatomy which I dig.

 

 

Sean

[neimad]

thanks...

 

it's my own take on it though, i'm sure someone else of more reputation than me has made the same distinction... but i haven't come across it yet

 

i have just been thinking about it some more and i think of it this way....

 

it's all energy. blood flow, endocrine flow, nerve flow, nutrient flow, oxygen flow, all of it is energy in some form or another.

lets lump it all under the catch word "chi".

 

we are existing in multi-dimensions, the way i see other dimensions as being is something along the lines of..... our sensory structures are able to pick up a very small amount of the available energy spectrum. the instruments we use in science are able to pick up a little more, but still there is this massive bandwidth of the energy spectrum that we have no way of detecting, even though it is around us always.

this is the other dimensions. it's here now, we are in it, we just don't realise because we are tuned to this one particular frequency, the 5 sense frequency.

 

now where am i going with this???

 

hmmmm kinda difficult to write down my thoughts as they aren't fully formed yet, but we are going with all our body processes as representing some kind of energy flow then obviously centres of this flow are going to be of significance to the entire energy flow within our body (and without in our energy field also).

so what i am saying is it makes sense that there are dense structures in our gross physical body that relate directly to the overall energy flow in our subtle energy body.

in the multidimensional nature of it perhaps there is more to these dense structures that we cannot, in our crudely conditioned ways (i believe we are capable of accessing much more of the universal spectrum than we currently do, but conditioning and fear limits us from doing so), perceive....

 

uggh i'm tangled up.

someone have a tug at any threads poking out of here and perhaps we can get to the bottom of this mess

[Cameron]

I remember Cohen saying somewhere that the endocrine glands are fed by sexual energy. Taoists basically put blood and hormones and pretty much everything physical under the broad heading "jing".

 

I remember Chia saying in one of his healing love tapes how you can experience orgasm in the glands, organs and senses themselves.

 

Of course, Bodri basically says your not doing cultivation without retention and I think he describes somewhere how the transfomration of jing to chi goes about and how areas of the body like the thymus are rejuvinated.

 

Or maybe it was Chia that said that...shit they might as well all be one here in Tao internet information land...

Edited May 1, 2006 by Cameron

[Ian]

 

Oh well, even if you don't have the link, what do you think? Do you find chakras and tan tiens to be descriptions of basically the same subtle body phenomenon? Or are they different, and if so how?

 

 

Definitely different. (I'm told)

 

Dan tiens are about storage and are suitable for this by virtue of being a place where many nerves meet.

 

Chakras are much more about receiving and transmitting, facilitating energetic interaction with the environment.

 

In fact, I was told recently that when the sacral and solar plexus chakras are completely cleared (not just open but cleared), then you start to get direct perception, the chakras are no longer needed to communicate in and out, and they turn upwards.

 

I'd never heard that before.

[thaddeus]

Definitely different. (I'm told)

 

Dan tiens are about storage and are suitable for this by virtue of being a place where many nerves meet.

 

Chakras are much more about receiving and transmitting, facilitating energetic interaction with the environment.

 

In fact, I was told recently that when the sacral and solar plexus chakras are completely cleared (not just open but cleared), then you start to get direct perception, the chakras are no longer needed to communicate in and out, and they turn upwards.

 

I'd never heard that before.

One interesting observation is that the chakras are located at each place the spine changes direction. So if you think of energy traveling through fascial matrix, which the bones are a particulary thick highway, when energy changes direction it can cause a swirl or vortex of sorts..

just throwing that in to the mix..

T

[sean]

I found it! Thanks to Heiki who pm'd me the link. It's called Astral Dynamics and they totally revamped their website and I didn't recognize it.

 

Based on reviewing the Astral Dynamics material again, the Types of Chakras over on Kheper, another page I found called Human Spiritual Structures and my own experience and intuitions ... I've pulled the following breakdown out of my ass channel.

 

1. Core Channel. Sushumna, ida, pingala. On the gross level is expressed as spinal cord and brain; the central nervous system. Primary channel for awakening the human being.

 

2. Tan Tiens. On the gross level, the densest plexus of ganglia along central nervous system at brain, heart and gut. Can function primarily as accumulators / storage centers but are so interrelated with chakras that IMHO cultivating exclusively with tan tiens also resonates with and opens the chakras.

 

3. Chakras. On the gross level, expressed as the hormonally based endocrine system but also the plexus of nerves connecting these glands to the nervous system, hence the intertwining chakra and tan tien relationship. This further explains why it's difficult to clearly distinguish tan tiens and chakras:

The nervous system and endocrine system are themselves interdependent and not so divergent or sharply distinguished as formerly supposed. In fact, many nervous system functions are mediated by hormones and the endocrine system is regulated to a large degree by the nervous system.

Yet IMHO Primary Chakras go deeper into the nonphysical, extending even into the archetypal, completely distinct from the body, whereas what I've seen written about the Tan Tiens, they are consistently described at an etheric level, always linking to the physical body.

 

4. Circuits. Meridians and accupoints. On the gross body expressed as nervous, circulatory, lymphatic, fascial, muscular, tendon and bone marrow pathways / connections, and also as "trigger points" along these pathways that have stronger influence than more neutral aspects of the pathways. Any number of these accupoints can be distinguished. This is where the microcosmic orbit, and the points along it, goes. It's also possible that larger structures, such as the 5 pairs of organs in Winn's Taoist alchemy fall into this class.

 

5. Ports. Areas of the body that are most capable of receiving / transmitting energy. On the gross body expressed as feet, palms of hands, nasal passages and lungs, lips, mouth, tongue, genitals (densest areas of tactile sensitivity. See homunculus)

 

What do you think? Trying to make sense of it all. It was actually the thread on Sacrum vs. Dan Tian by Harry that got me started on this trip. I'm still not satisfied with chakra / tan tien distinction but it's such a subtle science I doubt I can expect a definitive answer outside of my own experience.

 

 

Sean

[neimad]

i knew someone of more reputation than myself would have confirmed all my hunches.

 

 

i like these descriptions and feel it makes a lot of sense.

 

as to the chakra/tan tien distinctions..... well think of chakras as nervous/endocrine system conglomerates, whereas the tan tiens themselves are merely nervous system only.

 

anyways in all honesty i don't think it's necessary to be aware of any of this stuff for enlightenment..... the real process we are seeking happens at a different level than the gross or subtle bodies, it happens at the level of 'thetan' or 'soul'. clearing the energies of the lower bodies can definately helps though.

[sean]

Still fiddling with my body map of subtle body structures. Feedback is most welcome.

 

1. Channels - Energetic grooves

 

subtle - Meridians, sushumna, ida, pingala. Core channel. Pathways through which energy flows. In very subtle layers of anatomy I imagine energy flows freely without much structure, so channels are more relevant descriptions of the subtle anatomy a bit closer to the gross body; ie: as typical pathways energy travels.

gross - Expressed as nervous, spinal, circulatory, lymphatic, fascial, muscular, tendon and bone marrow pathways and connections

 

2. Points - Holographic wormholes

 

subtle - Accupoints. (5 pairs of Taoist organs?) Any number of these accupoints can be distinguished. This is where the the points along the microcosmic orbit go. I say they are holographic because they each contain the wisdom of every point. I call them wormholes because they are often intimately linked with other specific points, cauldrons, vortices, and portals. (ie: Qu Quan and Liver connection)

gross - Expressed as "trigger points" along channels that have stronger influence than more neutral aspects of the channels.

 

3. Cauldrons - Etheric neural-networks.

 

subtle - Tan tiens. For processing, and storing subtle body energy (chi). Interrelated with chakras. Cultivating exclusively with tan tiens also resonates with and opens the chakras. (?)

gross - Densest plexus of ganglia, 3 major ones are found along central nervous system at brain, heart and gut.

 

4. Vortices - Archetypal galaxies

 

subtle - Chakras. Subtle body transmitters and receivers extending deep into the nonphysical, archetypal realms.

gross - Expressed primarily as the hormonally based endocrine system but also the plexus of nerves connecting these glands to the nervous system, hence the intertwining chakra and tan tien relationship.

 

5. Portals - Organs of communion

 

subtle / gross - Areas of the gross body intimately linked with the subtle body in such a way that they are most capable of acting as portals for receiving and transmitting subtle body energy at the grosser levels, between two human beings for instance. Expressed as feet, palms of hands, nasal passages and lungs, lips, mouth, tongue, genitals (densest areas of tactile sensitivity. See homunculus)

 

Sean

[Cameron]

What do you think of Michael Winn's view that the microcosmic orbit unifies all the chakras to one harmonious flowing chakra stabilized and supported by the 3 tan tiens?

 

I like the view that the lower tan tien is like the root of the tree and you plant the seed of health and enlightenment there and gradually it grows and cultivates and opens the higher branches(middle and upper tan tien) and subsequently harmonizes the upper tan tien accosiated with higher awareness(shen) with the lower tan tien accosiated with sexuality(jing).

 

Cool to read your explorations into the chakra system and I know the magik traditions use the chakra system perhaps more than the Taoist system(or maybe not?)

 

Cam

Edited May 3, 2006 by Cameron

[affenbrot]

[sean]

affenbrot, !! Thanks for bringing up this kunda my friend! I've never heard of this and it's quite a profound link between the Chinese and Indian Yogas IMO.

 

Via The Center in Yoga

Yoga is said to be the ancestor of the East Asian traditions which focus on the center of the body as the gateway to our center of being. Such a focus is missing in the way yoga is typically presented. As we usually hear about it, yoga's intention is to raise energy upward along the Sushumna nadi through the chakras and out the crown of the head. While the image for practices such as Tai Chi might be a revolving spiral centered in the belly, the popular image for yoga might be the upward pointing arrow: yoga as rocket-launch

...

However: Yoga's map of energy anatomy does chart the body's center, the one-point counterpart to the Japanese tanden. This largely overlooked subtle energy structure is called the kanda.

 

The kanda (meaning knot or bulbous root) is described in various writings as a white or golden sphere or egg-shape located a few inches below the navel. It is the origin of the fourteen major nadis (energy pathways) including the Sushumna, Ida, and Pingala-also named as the river goddesses Sarasvati, Ganga, and Jumna.

 

freeform, those descriptions of patterns of energy are amazing. I've heard good things about her Energy Medicine, probably from you in past posts. Will definitely check that out some time. I think I was trying to clarify something more akin to structures of the subtle body, whereas I would say her distinctions seem to apply more to the various types (frequencies?) of subtle energy itself ... not a firm line between the two though ... frequencies also beings subtle structures in a way. Hmmm... but I think I would clump most of those listed as subtypes of channels or subtle energy. But maybe this is all pointing to a deeper flaw in my attempts at subtle body mapping ... an overemphasis on "pinning down" and categorizing structures when the reality is more like that found in turbulent fluids, fractals, strange attractors ... much more difficult to distinguish forms within the dance. We need a good visionary artist slash chaos mathematician slash esoteric mystic slash psychedelic classical composer for this job.

 

Sean

[Aunt Clair]

Anyone remember this page?

Googling ;subtle body chakras tan tiens storage centers

I found this

The Spiritual Core of Master Mantak Chia's Teaching

You can observe the “dark matter” with your “dark matter” subtle body vision. ... Cosmic consciousness opens the three tan tiens to receive primordial force ...

http://www.universal-tao.com/9formulas.html

also

MAP by Robert Bruce

It got posted on HT a few times over the years.

please give me an addy for HT , thanks

Do you find chakras and tan tiens to be descriptions of basically the same subtle body phenomenon?

Or are they different, and if so how?

I believe that there are 7 spinal chakras and that there are 3 primary energy storage centres surrounding each pair of chakras . And that there is a fourth energy centre which will manifest above the crown when the energy body develops sufficiently . The energy flows thru the central column imbibing the chakras and then the excess energies flow into the tan tiens like the receptacle below a fountain to recycle the energy within the chakras .

 

Moonstone~shen water around blue and indigo chakras

Sunstone ~ chu around yellow and green chakras

Earthstone ~around red and orange chakras

 

I am new. May members post links to their own sites & articles ?

Edited April 23, 2007 by Aunt Clair

[Wayfarer64]

Hey Sean -

This has been a very informative thread.

 

I began thinking of your past posts about the changes that you have been going through-the roller-coaster of life as it were... (Which is something that I also have been experiencing lately)...This passage seems to offer an explanation that fits our possible circumstances...

 

Sadhana. In mediation when the mind is withdrawn, and the lower kosas are merged into the Supreme, then samskaras can ripen and be expressed when the sadhaka returns to normal consciousness. This is why life can have so many changes and ups and downs after starting meditation.

 

 

One thing will lead to another, inevitablly so, hang in there!-

Love to all- Pat

[He ZuDao]

EXCELLENT thread!

 

Most of what I would have to add has been covered already.

 

In my bare limited experience the 3 tan tiens relate to the nerve ganglia, and act as "batteries" and resemble "force fields" (although I forget where I first heard that metaphor), while the chakras seem aligned/related to the spine...

 

There seem to be a number of other "large points" that have been described as "chakras" such as the Meng Men, and the energy centers of the palms, and the K1 point/bubbling well in the feet. How do the gua/kwa relate?

 

Bruce Frantzis make the case in his "opening the energy gates" book that there are a number of vorticies resembling chakras on the OUTSIDE of the body, although I'll admit that it's been at least 10 years since I read that book. In my own experience, and from my teacher I have made use of an 'energy center" that exists a few inches in front of the "third eye" point outside the skull.

 

I really like the Astral Dynamics information, and approach to this stuff as well. I was introduced to it last year, and thought that they brought it all together in a nice accessible way. I would recommend it to complete beginners over the hodge podge, hit or miss approach that I've been experiencing.

 

Has anyone else noticed that "subtle energy" reacts differently depending on the metaphore you're using? If I'm treating it as "prana", or "qi", or "ether", or "magnetic fluids" (ala Mesmer), I seem to have a different experience of it.

 

I am quite facsinated by the tought that physical structures, such as the fascia, bones, lymph, and nerves act as conduits, or possibly generate sublte energies.

 

great thread everyone thank you!

 

He ZuDao