[minimoke]

Ian, on Jun 19 2006, 10:49 AM, said:

Cloud - will you give up the joy of argument?
Sean - will you give up the joy or research and analysis?
Ian - will you give up trying to be right?

Will you give up being yourself? Will you go right out on a limb and have no idea what to do next because you don't know who you are? Will you endure that uncertainty for decades if necessary, years of apparent pointlessness, because you love God/tao/love, whatever you call it, so much?

Maybe neimad will.

Neimad will. Neimad does. But then I am talking for Neimad. What gives me that right? Because I am a head?

Minimoke gave up being himself long time ago. Long before he discovered Zen. Long before he discovered Tao. Everytime you ask a question you give up alittle of yourself for the common good, or "other" good.

[minimoke]

cloud recluse, on Jun 19 2006, 06:08 PM, said:

Full Contact will remove all your baggage in its own good time,you cant "Push the River" as I think they say in Zen. In fact its allready removing your baggage,you just have to drop resistance to it.This is where the discipline comes in,the discipline to stay open in the face of fear.

Regards,Cloud.

Experience every "moment". Love life every "moment". Cram enough "moments" into your life and Enlightenment will jump on you.

[Ian]

cloud recluse, on Jun 20 2006, 01:08 AM, said:

Ok Ian,I agree with the essence of your first 2 points,though Im not sure about the 3rd yet.But one thing I dont agree with,if I read you rightly,is the overall theme I get from your language( no,theres no sign of me giving up argument yet).It seems like you have a huge attachment to the image of The Struggling Seeker,very Judeo-Christian.You seem to be hooked around a "You" that will do a lot of renunciation in order to "get" Enlightenment,while at the same time advocating the Full Contact that Im on about.I suspect your carrying some baggage there man.

Full Contact will remove all your baggage in its own good time,you cant "Push the River" as I think they say in Zen.In fact its allready removing your baggage,you just have to drop resistance to it.This is where the discipline comes in,the discipline to stay open in the face of fear.

But its as easy as it is hard,& this is what you mightnt like about what Im saying.As far as I can tell ,you only want it to be hard,you dont want it to be easy.Perhaps that reeks of sin to you,or lacks the necessary punitive imagery to assauge some kind of guilt you feel,I dunno.

I go totally with Adyashanti on this.If your a hard nut to crack,addicted to strenous self-effort,it will be "Hard",& you wouldnt have it any other way.You have to be broken in order to get anywhere.But why be broken?

Its like Meditation,its only "Hard" when you struggle with it.When you release into the process,the 'fuel' for your 'effort' becomes so readily abundant,its no longer an effort.The Dao is superabundant & overflowing.Look at the whole cosmos its allready brought forth in gorgeous,wasteful display.

Stop obsessing about self destruction as a goal in itself & get into the Flow.They you will outgrow your illusions in their own good time.And dont worry,this still 'needs" effort & self-discipline to accept whats coming,but it mightnt be the hardship & struggle your ego may desperately want it to be.

If Im misrepresenting you I do apologize,and I believe you are sincere in what you say,but is it not possible that if you drop the Struggling Seeker bit you will just Fall Awake in your own good time (Another Adya-ism there).Ive allready done the "I will force myself Awake through personal effort" trip.Its crap!!! It leads nowhere,only to morbid self-obsession.Thats why I go with the Dao instead.

Stay alert,but dont Struggle.

Regards,Cloud.

I know it's easy, and that all you have to do is drop the hard bit. Stop struggling.
And my own practice is becoming more effortless all the time, (especially just now with an awesome solstice vibe going on )

But.... it's harder to drop the hard bit than all you bliss-munchers think.

I'm not after cruxifiction. But look:

You start a practice. It works great in the areas where you have not much resistance. And you tend to avoid those areas where you do have much resistance. And your resistance will make up very very plausible reasons why you shouldn't even go there. Which is why much spiritual practice runs straight into a brick wall.

All I'm saying is that we have to go through the extremely painful process of giving up the bits we want to keep. It needn't cause us even a tiny bit of suffering, but it will be painful. "Enjoy the pain!" my sifu says, with a big grin.

I'm not addicted to suffering, I'm generally a lazy, happy bugger. I'm just trying to provide another side to the coin. I read a lot of posts on here which make me think that folks are practice-surfing, picking and choosing those approaches which appeal to the part of them that has to go. How's that for irony?

All I'm trying to say, really, is that if you keep playing, having fun, exploring the possibilities, manifesting bliss etc etc etc, it is indulgence of the small self and that self will run you in circles.

So much of what people say in response to this sort of argument is perfectly right and plausible IF AND ONLY IF you are already empty and unattached and big mind is leading your spontaneous expression. THEN you can groove with creation.

But we all have a huge amount of house-clearing to do before we get to that stage and I sincerely believe that anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

It doesn't have to be tough, it just has to be done.

This post has been edited by Ian: 20 June 2006 - 12:56 AM

[neimad]

i'm with ya ian.


hard work.... karma yoga.


and i tell ya, i'm one of the lasiest buggers around.... i always thought there had to be a magic pill or an easy way.

but i realise now thats all bollocks..... the only way is to do the work.

[cat]

dont seeming dualities just love to assert themselves into shared speech games. ho hum.

Speaking as someone who is lucky enough to know Ian in the corporeal world, I can certainly tell you all that he is indeed as he says a happy lazy person. Ian is laid back and relaxed and very funny and eating a sandwich with him even is a fresh experience, because he is not unconsciously habitual in his relationship to what is happening.

Also, he is RIGOROUS and very honest about blind spots and knots and partial failiures, because, I think, he doesnt want to be lazy in this field, or blissfully self deluding.

I hope you dont mind me saying these things, Ian. I have chosen to talk about you rather than to allow the possibility that what you have said is interpreted as addicted to suffering or somesuch construction.



Karen, I am quite enamoured of your ideas about how to relate to words and actions out of their usual contexts I am definitely adopting a new approach to the word "hard" now - thanks for that, it's fantastic. Also I now feel less of a weirdo for finding the dentist experience a mild turn on..

[cloud recluse]

neimad, on Jun 20 2006, 01:55 PM, said:

....
unfathomable is much nicer, yes but gives the impression that we don't know it's all a game... when we do (even if we pretend we don't)! when i speak of useless it's not in a negative way but rather i'm just astounded that it's all a game and the end of the game is what we are working towards with this spiritual quest. the end of the game (the big one, not just our little microcosmic versions of it) is the end of it all (just like the end of our human games = the end of the matrix for us). when i begin to look upon that i cannot help but laugh out of the sheer absurdity of it all.

what a massive giant joke!

Ah.I actually concur with pretty much everything youve said here except that very last point.This is where we may differ ( this also may seem really trivial on my part,but I really like hammering these things out in the public arena.Im sure Im only a short step away from standing on the street somewhere shouting at complete strangers).

When I say "Unfathomable",or express reservations about other terms being nihilistic,or potentially nihilistic,its not that Im particularly concerned that certain terms are 'nice',& Im probably as intolerant of bliss-munchers as I am obsessive about language.Its more that I really do think that the term is more accurate,in that it avoids the patential nihilism of the other terms,and doesnt lay claim to knowledge of where its all headed.I honestly dont know if "It',all of it macrocosmically,is a game or not.I cant see a particular direction in which the World-Process is definetly headed,though I can see some of the possible options.

Certainly there is gigantic humour in our situation.Adyashanti spoke of a certain amusing embarresment that accompanied Enlightenment,the huge ironic joke of the ego-strategy.And who knows what other cosmic punchlines await us?But to say its "useless" per se requires more knowledge of the world than I can lay claim to,or a very specific act of faith,which I havent been inspired to make,at least not yet .So thats why Im sticking with Mysterious,dogmatic fucker that I am

As to the coolness of the Matrix imagery,how did you find the 2nd & 3rd films in comparison to the first( a bit off topic there,but what the hell)?

Regards,Cloud.

[cloud recluse]

Ian, on Jun 20 2006, 06:28 PM, said:

I know it's easy, and that all you have to do is drop the hard bit. Stop struggling.
And my own practice is becoming more effortless all the time, (especially just now with an awesome solstice vibe going on )

But.... it's harder to drop the hard bit than all you bliss-munchers think.

I'm not after cruxifiction. But look:

You start a practice. It works great in the areas where you have not much resistance. And you tend to avoid those areas where you do have much resistance. And your resistance will make up very very plausible reasons why you shouldn't even go there. Which is why much spiritual practice runs straight into a brick wall.

All I'm saying is that we have to go through the extremely painful process of giving up the bits we want to keep. It needn't cause us even a tiny bit of suffering, but it will be painful. "Enjoy the pain!" my sifu says, with a big grin.

I'm not addicted to suffering, I'm generally a lazy, happy bugger. I'm just trying to provide another side to the coin. I read a lot of posts on here which make me think that folks are practice-surfing, picking and choosing those approaches which appeal to the part of them that has to go. How's that for irony?

All I'm trying to say, really, is that if you keep playing, having fun, exploring the possibilities, manifesting bliss etc etc etc, it is indulgence of the small self and that self will run you in circles.

So much of what people say in response to this sort of argument is perfectly right and plausible IF AND ONLY IF you are already empty and unattached and big mind is leading your spontaneous expression. THEN you can groove with creation.

But we all have a huge amount of house-clearing to do before we get to that stage and I sincerely believe that anyone who thinks otherwise is kidding themselves.

It doesn't have to be tough, it just has to be done.

Cool Im pretty much for everything single thing youve got in here!Still dont like the term"detached" though.I think when you are really open,& have forsaken illusions ,then your REALLY attached for the first time,soaked in the Real.If you make the stage-specific strategy of Detaching from a particular illusion (which I TOTALLY support & advocate) into the goal itself,to BE "detached",you set up another dualism & hold back from the Full Contact thats waiting for you.So I would really prefer to describe the Goal as Full Contact,which ususlly necessitates detaching from specific illusions & compulsions,If you start using Detachment language to describe the goal itself,its possible to get onto all sorts of misery trips.

Ian,you must now have arrived at the conclusion that I have a petty obsession with terminology,but I am actually quite sincere in my opinion that Spiritual language desperately needs an overhaul.And I dont think you yourself seriously have a hankering for crucifixion( kinky sod if you do though,Im perfectly satisfied by your average spanking !).But the Detachment lingo does evoke crucifixion to me,whatever the intent of the speaker.

Thank you for having the good graces to not simply tell me to fuck off

Reagrds,Cloud.

minimoke, on Jun 20 2006, 03:50 PM, said:

Neimad will. Neimad does. But then I am talking for Neimad. What gives me that right? Because I am a head?

Minimoke gave up being himself long time ago. Long before he discovered Zen. Long before he discovered Tao. Everytime you ask a question you give up alittle of yourself for the common good, or "other" good.

Im still obsessed with Cloud Im afraid.I cant help it,hes so fucking sexy

[Trunk]

sean, on Jun 17 2006, 01:46 PM, said:

Saying an enlightened master has no desire is like saying hitting him with a metal baseball bat across the head won't hurt. It will. The distinction is wether the master creates suffering from these sensations, or is just empty with them

Couple of things, here.
One, I think its more effective to talk about enlightened states, rather than enlightened people. We all experience some small degree of enlightened, sometimes. Also saying someone is enlightened implies that they're in the enlightened state all the time .. and that's too much of an absolute to live up to. Anyway...

The more important point, is that I think there's still a lack of understanding of forward and reverse - in general, and in relation to light. (imo ->) In forward you got your vital winds flowing 'round & 'bout you, and you got your thoughts ridin' on them and as you experience you try and do "warding off stuff" with your winds & thoughts to try and stop the experience, or make it different. When good stuff happens, we do "yummm, gobble-onto" stuff with our thoughts, winds, subtle bodies - in relation to that yummy stuff. And we express ourselves. In reverse, the vital winds gather and concentrate in the central channel (that still center empty throughway), particularly in the deep-center. The bindu becomes illuminated and unifies with The Big Light. Upon that power, all the vital winds (and whatever else is laying around) are spontaneously drawn into the center and refined. The Big Light suffuses the centers: Radiance.

imo, fluency in the above is a lot about what our practices are leading to.

[Callan]

cloud recluse, on Jun 20 2006, 01:31 PM, said:

Ian,you must now have arrived at the conclusion that I have a petty obsession with terminology,but I am actually quite sincere in my opinion that Spiritual language desperately needs an overhaul.And I dont think you yourself seriously have a hankering for crucifixion( kinky sod if you do though,Im perfectly satisfied by your average spanking !).But the Detachment lingo does evoke crucifixion to me,whatever the intent of the speaker.

The image of the crucifixion would make a lot more sense if Jesus was depicted with a hard-on and a look of ecstacy on his face.
There is a link. It's different from being a victim or a martyr.
Or maybe he could be shown being spanked by Mary Magdalene.