[affenbrot]

this is an video-sample from Ring Of Fire showing famous 'John Chang',
written about in the Magus of Java.
Inbetween he explains his way of kan and li in four seconds...

John Chang

This post has been edited by affenbrot: 27 July 2006 - 04:45 AM

[freeform]

affenbrot, on Jul 27 2006, 09:46 AM, said:

this is an video-sample from Ring Of Fire showing famous 'John Chang',
written about in the Magus of Java.
Inbetween he explains his way of kan and li in four seconds...

John Chang

Thanks Affenbrot. Having read Magus of Java, I've been wanting to see this video for a while. This guy throws up many questions! It's great to see him demonstrating his electric charge on people that aren't his students - and to me this skill looked jenuine.

The setting stuff on fire trick is a little more questionable - it can be done easily by dropping sulphur (or other chemicals) into the paper, and the sweat from his hands/droping from his forehead (or a drop of water) sets it alight... I dont know if this was the case here...

so his kan and li is bringing the yin from his perineum up to his tan tien (where he must've stored up loads of yang chi) and this causes an explosion of energy?!

[thaddeus]

freeform, on Jul 27 2006, 09:52 AM, said:

so his kan and li is bringing the yin from his perineum up to his tan tien (where he must've stored up loads of yang chi) and this causes an explosion of energy?!

Yeah, can somebody write up his explanation?
Thanks,
T

[affenbrot]

thaddeus, on Jul 27 2006, 07:13 AM, said:

Yeah, can somebody write up his explanation?
Thanks,
T

as I understand it he brings down his yang from the dantian to the huiyin.
There he gathers as much yin as there is yang, then
eventually yang and yin rise together (but still separate).
Finally he squeezes the two together inside the dantian.
"If your are successful by forcing the two together, you also force them to react (...)
this is how the spark, the lighning bolt between the two is generated..."*


In the book this is described as "Level 4" and already very advanced.



affenbrot


p.s. there was a thread at shaolin wahnam forum about it that i quite liked.
a pupil of Kosta Danaos gives good insights here: wahnam neikung





* quote from Magus of Java

This post has been edited by affenbrot: 27 July 2006 - 03:27 PM

[Pero]

I also think that the electric discharge is genuine and the fire very very questionable, but everything is possible.

Those that read the books from Kosta Danaos, how did you like them? Did you find anything useful in them? Any practical exercises?

[thaddeus]

Pero, on Jul 28 2006, 08:52 AM, said:

I also think that the electric discharge is genuine and the fire very very questionable, but everything is possible.

Those that read the books from Kosta Danaos, how did you like them? Did you find anything useful in them? Any practical exercises?

I read those books..useless in my opinion..no details.
I can back that up by saying absolutely noone from that tradition can exhibit any of these skills.
But I agree, I heard enough about the electric discharge across disciplines to be interested in it as a real phenomena. For example, Koichi Tohei does it.
T

[freeform]

thaddeus, on Jul 28 2006, 02:18 PM, said:

I read those books..useless in my opinion..no details.
I can back that up by saying absolutely noone from that tradition can exhibit any of these skills.
But I agree, I heard enough about the electric discharge across disciplines to be interested in it as a real phenomena. For example, Koichi Tohei does it.
T

In terms of practicality the book (I've read the first one) is pretty useless - it's an entertaining read though. The key to differentiating whether the discharge is actual energy or just hypnosis is to see the master doing it on people that are not his students - and have not been to any of his classes etc.

I find it very hard to believe some of the tricks that this dude can do - but I also find it weird that he would go through so much trouble to come up with them, practice them and then demonstrate them to pupils that dont even pay for tuition. what's going on?

[affenbrot]

Pero, on Jul 28 2006, 04:52 AM, said:

Those that read the books from Kosta Danaos, how did you like them? Did you find anything useful in them? Any practical exercises?

I liked the book a lot. It is full of stories, anecdotes, unusual encounters.
written very well... though the author might have polished one story or the other
into more glory I believe its content is basically no fantasy but about people, encounters,
capabilities and lineages that actually exist.
The theory given about the dantian, qi, yang and yin, about general mechanisms of
practice I found very valuable, even if it never gets into hands-on description of
the actual practice of this lineage.

[Buddy]

I agree, and anyone who resorts to such obvious trickery as the newspaper thing is a fraud.

This post has been edited by Buddy: 31 July 2006 - 11:47 AM

[thaddeus]

Buddy, on Jul 31 2006, 03:46 PM, said:

I agree, and anyone who resorts to such obvious trickery as the newspaper thing is a fraud.

I think people often forget that humans have been around for millions of years. If it was possible to light something on fire like this guy, we would just take it for granted that it was possible and lots of people would do it, even kids. It's amazing how people, including myself, often suspend common sense when confronted with this stuff.
T

[mYTHmAKER]

thaddeus, on Aug 1 2006, 08:40 AM, said:

I think people often forget that humans have been around for millions of years. If it was possible to light something on fire like this guy, we would just take it for granted that it was possible and lots of people would do it, even kids. It's amazing how people, including myself, often suspend common sense when confronted with this stuff.
T

And yet so many people believe in a virgin birth etc.
A wise being once said " you all are looking for miracles.
You want to see with your ears, hear with your nose.
Taste with your eyes.
The true miracle is that you can see with your eyes,
hear with your ears, and speak with your tongue"

[darebak]

I think John Chang is for real. I have read the books and found it refreshing to have some of these mechanics explained to me from the perspective of an engineer.(the author is an engineer)
After reading these books and then reading some of the classics, oh man, they are soooo much clearer.
One thing that I find very interesting about this "Thunder Path" is the close connection with Vajrayana practices.
If you watch John Chang's breathing on these videos, it is very similar to what some tantric practitioners do.
I think if John Chang were a fake he would probably be raking in money from his seminars taught in "healing centers" around the world. This guy has vowed to never make a dime from anything related to his practice. He has to turn people away on a daily basis because there are so few that are sincere enough to take on this kind of practice. Our wolrd needs more people like that!
We are lucky to even have a glimpse of this man's developments. I'm sure their are others who have decided to spend their time on similar practices rather than participate in consumerism and such.
Think about it. If you had practiced a martial art or meditation for eighteen years and were able to set things on fire with your chi, would'nt you be extremely careful about who knew about it?
The last I read of John Chang, he felt he had received too much of the wrong kind of attention, stopped teaching and retreated into privacy.
The beauty of this man, from the descriptions of him I've read, is that he really doesn't know much about Taoism. It is almost an accident that he came across these techniques and yet maybe not so much of an accident. From the few photos I've seen he has an innocent kindness in his eyes much like my late grandfather who was the kindest person I've ever known.
It is beautiful that a person with these qualities would be the guardian of such powerful knowledge.
I am just glad that I was able to learn something from what information he did share with the world through those books. I have great amount of respect for John Chang and the MoPai. I have learned a great deal from them as an outsider.
Read these books and then read some of the classics on meditation or Tai Chi. You'll have an entirely different, more practical point of view. I did anyway.

[DustWalker]

Yes! According to many sources the vajrayana and the thunder path are of the same origin. There seems to have been lots of connections between chinese and tibetan hermits on both sides of the himalayan borders. Very interesting.

Btw. Does anyone here know where I can find a torrent or place to download the full "ring of fire" program?

[thaddeus]

darebak, on Aug 1 2006, 09:48 PM, said:

The last I read of John Chang, he felt he had received too much of the wrong kind of attention, stopped teaching and retreated into privacy.

Maybe he retreated into privacy, but kostas seems to be doing ok and have no issues promulgating him.
To paraphrase a wise teacher, if you have a lamp, would you hide it under a table? Or another..we're in the desert and I have some water..
Anyway, tell me how you understand the fire thing from an engineer's perspective. Have you tried any of it?

T

[darebak]

Now this is all outsider info, be ye warned.

Everyone involved with the John Chang and mopai stopped talking about it publicly a couple years ago it seems. John apparently no longer accepts students.

The practice seems to be very dangerous. Which makes sense because the similar tantric techniques are also very dangerous. That level of breath control and internal exertion can destroy you from the inside if you are not working with a competent teacher. Not to mention starting a process that you don't know how to stop.

I'm not gonna lie. I have experimented with what little knowledge I have pieced together from the available material on both of these traditions. I thought, "Oh I'm strong and clever, I can handle it."
It got frighteningly strong very quickly. Even as a complete outsider to both of these traditions I am not willing to share exactly what I did in my foolish experimentation because I have tasted the danger and would not want to be responsible for anyone else hurting themselves. I am quite sure I was missing some information. As unamerican as I am, my typical american heedlessness got the best of me.

Hopefully I will find someone who can guide me in this practice one day. If I were ready to commit to the Vajrayana path I would go that route. The centers opened by Lama Yeshe in the US seem like they would be a good place to start.
With kids though I am just not willing to go 100% monastic. I personally, am not real keen on the religious aspect of Tibetan Buddhism either.

As for the example of the lamp and the table, I think what you have here is more of a flamethrower. It can illuminate but it can also destroy. I would hide a flamethrower. But not under a table. hehe

As for the engineer's perspective, Kostas is the engineer. These books are written largely from that perspective.
One example of information that is seldom found elsewhere is the notion that Yang is described as that which wants to expand and Yin as that which wants to condense into singularity.
Yin force includes gravity and is not directly perceptible by the average human. It is perceived via the reaction of the Yang force to its presence.
This makes sense. A black hole (Yin) is only perceptible by what stellar material (Yang) is consumed by it.
I enjoy these practical explanations of Yin and Yang. Looking at Yin and Yang this way has helped me to understand texts like Tao Te Ching and The Secret of The Golden Flower in ways I hadn't before.
Good stuff.

[thaddeus]

darebak, on Aug 2 2006, 04:19 PM, said:

The practice seems to be very dangerous. Which makes sense because the similar tantric techniques are also very dangerous. That level of breath control and internal exertion can destroy you from the inside if you are not working with a competent teacher. Not to mention starting a process that you don't know how to stop.

I'm not gonna lie. I have experimented with what little knowledge I have pieced together from the available material on both of these traditions. I thought, "Oh I'm strong and clever, I can handle it."
It got frighteningly strong very quickly. Even as a complete outsider to both of these traditions I am not willing to share exactly what I did in my foolish experimentation because I have tasted the danger and would not want to be responsible for anyone else hurting themselves.

What tantric techniques have you been exposed to? What got 'frighteningly strong'? Were you working with breathing techniques or visualization techniques? You don't have to say exactly what you did, but some generalities would be cool. I could probably extrapolate the rest on my own. Other than some odd breatholding/pressure thing, I can't imagine something doing damage...??
T

[Pero]

Quote

Yes! According to many sources the vajrayana and the thunder path are of the same origin.

Doesn`t vajrayana actually mean something like thunder (diamond) path?

[seandenty]

Hi All,

Interesting discussion here. I was a student of Kostas for a few years, interesting experience that. It's all quite real.

This post has been edited by seandenty: 22 September 2006 - 12:43 PM

[affenbrot]

seandenty, on Sep 22 2006, 12:42 PM, said:

Hi All,

Interesting discussion here. I was a student of Kostas for a few years, interesting experience that. It's all quite real.

oh - does that mean you quit the system in whole? I would guess this build-in block
of probably not being able to reach level four was quite tough to swallow, and not very motivating?
Or you had different issues with it? have you found a practice or teacher in the meantime that makes more sense to you?

the aspect of 'realness' was the one that still fascinates me most about the magus of java.
I always wondered if the principles of the HT that basically seem quite similar to me, could be brought forth
to the same realness and physicality as in the mopai, maybe in a more gradual approach though.
Do you see a connection of these two systems - or are they just too different in your opinion?
What's your view on neikung now?

very curious, and thanks for pluggin into this topic,
affenbrot

[seandenty]

affenbrot, on Sep 22 2006, 04:16 PM, said:

oh - does that mean you quit the system in whole? I would guess this build-in block
of probably not being able to reach level four was quite tough to swallow, and not very motivating?
Or you had different issues with it? have you found a practice or teacher in the meantime that makes more sense to you?

Two things: John Dijang wishes to be left alone and, as you may know, is no longer and has in truth never taught this system to westerners or Chinese, with the exception of one or two, for that matter. Secondly, the system is unsound and extremely dangerous and impossible to achieve without the constant guidance and blessing of the master. Besides, there’s no real method to it, just raw technique. It’s like going to a running coach and they just tell you, “okay go run really fast and come back in three years. We’ll see how you’ve improved.”

I have been to China recently and met others like John Dijang; real immortal masters like the kind in legends. My trip and training there was and is the culmination of several years of sweat and sacrifice that , to be frank, most would be unwilling to undergo. Yes, I have found a teacher who is willing to teach real, authentic neikung and I'm starting from square one after over ten years of training in what I thought were sound practices. Turns out I would have been better off not practicing those methods at all. Ironically, students with no training or qiging background are considered lucky; they don't have bad habits from years of wrong practice.

It’s just a lot of damn work you see. First you need a teacher who is willing; good luck. Then you need a teacher with the correct techniques; okay maybe. Then you need a teacher with a good method; again, good luck. Minimum four hours of training per day. And the cost; plane tickets, offerings, fees, etc... you can forget about that vacation to the Bahamas. When people see what’s really involved to actually began to have real achievement, most give up and go home.

Quote

the aspect of 'realness' was the one that still fascinates me most about the magus of java.
I always wondered if the principles of the HT that basically seem quite similar to me, could be brought forth to the same realness and physicality as in the mopai, maybe in a more gradual approach though.
Do you see a connection of these two systems - or are they just too different in your opinion?
What's your view on neikung now?

Affenbrot, It came as a shock to learn, after several years of heavy involvement with HT, that the entire system is a complete and total money scam. I was a Healing Tao instructor for a time and worked very closely with many senior instructors. I'm not asking for a debate on this issue or trying to dishearten the many sincere followers of the HT system that are members here on this forum, but what Chia is teaching has nothing and I mean nothing to do with neikung. It amounts to basic qigong, which is good for your health at best. The sexual stuff is just one of the minor Daoist teachings that leads to no achievement other than weak kidneys because it’s all taught incorrectly. I know many people who have literally ruined their health practicing this system. I was one of them. Thank God I met a real master who could fix my body. I know this is a strong statement, but it's my experience; it's very sad for me to log on here and listen to students go on about their experiences with useless practices, all the while thinking they are making progress. Talking about Kan and Li and Fusion; what a joke. These practices were completely invented by Mantak Chia and his Students, who don't even have the most basic achievement in terms of neikung.

Mantak Chia's father, from what I'm told, was a sincere practitioner, but the line ended with him. You see, a real dragon is hard to meet. They don't just show up in your mail box or invite you to a weekend workshop, but the neikung they teach is the only real path to success and they can readily demonstrate that achievement so that even a child can see that it’s real. I remember the first time I was zapped by a real master using his yin yang gong; my arms contracting and moving uncontrollably, no matter how hard I resisted, as strong electricity coursed through my body. My view on neikung? Simple, there is neikung and when you experience it you have no more questions.

Best, Sean