[Jakara]

At risk of sounding over cynical I would like to ask the question: Is KunLun Bogus?

Please be aware Im not suggesting that it is, Im asking a question, not making a statement. The reason I ask is because there seems to be a few things that are specifically non-daoist and a lot of statements being made that sound a bit sketchy. Maybe this is my missunderstanding or perhaps a genuine mistake on part of the website etc. But anyway, here they are.

"Max Christensen is not out to make money, the teachings are free. You are your own teacher, you can do it by yourself."


- The book costs $15, which is not an unreasonable price for a book, but this part is what gets me...

Website:

NOTE: This book is a great way to familiarize yourself with Kunlun, but to get the most from your practice you must have the ability transferred to you by Lama Dorje(!). Then you can perform the exercises to unlock what you have been given. This is best used as a companion to the seminars.

- So I cant really learn from the book and practice effectively. The seminars (which cost $300 each) are an essential part of the program, along with the "initiation" so really im not my own teacher. Taking these into account it only takes 20 or so people to make $6000 for 4 hours work - 1 seminar.

There are pictures of light emanating from hands and body etc.

- If these are real, its very pretty. But why are't there any videos? Pictures can easily be fakes, so why use such system? A nice video would be much more convincing.

"Max does not want followers:"

- Then why create a system, write a book on it, make a website on it, do seminars on it and publicise it on the radio?

"The results actually work, bliss can be felt, just try the practice for yourself!"

- I have to pay money to try this practice, get initiationand travel to seminars. I can achieve a state of bliss by manipulating my body in certain ways, but this isn't enlightenment. Many have reported bliss feeling, im not questioning that, but feeling bliss is not part of the daoist tradition, it creates attachment to feelings.

Scientific claims:

"Practitioner will continue to do Level I practice in Level II. The purpose of this level is to generate and circulate magnetic energy through the body. When the energy is at its highest, magnetic power is able to flow through the body. "

- Have you taken a hall probe to measure this effect and verify it is magnetic? Its easily insertable into various cavaties of the human body to make internal measurments of magnetic fields.

"Technically, a black hole absorbs matter into a rotating vortex of magnetic energy. However, a black hole also emits waves and particles into space. One can use this form of energy for his personal awakening.

This form of radiation from the "black hole" is called ultraviolet-three and is only found in the depth of space, or in objects such as meteorites. This radiation does not travel through the earth because of the earth's protective magnetic field will not allow ultraviolet-three to penetrate to the earth's surface."

- Where is the evidence for this? Conveniently we can't find a black hole to test it. Theres no such thing as ultraviolet-three radiation. How do you know its found in meteorites, have you opened one up? Even if it can't penetrate the Earth's surface, why haven't satellite based instruments detected it?

"Celestial Chi Gung is a sitting meditation that allows one to tap into the energy of the universe via black hole. "

- I doubt that was the explanation given by the ancient masters who invented it.

"As you become more clear, you become more magnetic. "

- Should I worry about metal objects flying randomly towards me as I ascend towards enlightenment?

"The video samples show people being affected by Max's energy. Can this energy be applied to anybody?
Nothing is being done without people's permission. In fact, if someone is consciously aware of this type of energy being directed at them they can usually close themselves to it."

- This is a typical trick proven with modern psychological methods. You have to believe you are going to be manipulated and then you are. If you don't belive nothing happens. Theres no mystical energy involved here.

"These can be proven scientifically. Quantum physicsists understand but can't apply it. There's free energy"

- Quantum physics is understood and applied every day by scientists everywhere. There's no such thing as free energy in the laws of this universe, and given we exist in it, its just not true. None of this can be proven scientifically, that would require correspondence with real scientists with logical methods.

My apologies if I seem over cynical, its not my intention to cause an argument or insult anyone, but there should be some questions given the amount of people on this forum asking about these methods.

Any input is much appreciated.

This post has been edited by Jakara: 11 January 2008 - 11:57 AM

[Taiji Bum]

This is like going on a Christian website and asking if the Baptists are bogus. If this is really a seroius question and your not Trolling you might want to search the many, many Kun Lun threads here. Objections have been raised, people have already been offended, there was rudeness given and had by all, and it was just starting to quiet down again.

I dont mean to offend you but I just wanted to let you know that this subject has been done to death here. So much so that the many great Kun Lun people here are going to go to another site so they dont have to get insulted everytime they want to talk about thier Kun Lun practice.

Just thought you should know...

[thaddeus]

None of this stuff really matters.
If you believe you will be enlightened by standing on one leg, or pointing a sword finger, or doing anything..guess what..you will.
So why not just drop all the practice.
All this magnetic flow mumbo jumbo...
Placebo effect.
Quantum Physics..wherever you look it's there..
Pick a path..there's no point in talking about it anymore..
T

[Wun Yuen Gong]

JAKARA

I couldnt have said it better myself!!!

This is what ive been trying to ask but couldnt find the words....

WYG

[Jakara]

Im not sure what trolling is but im not trying to stir it up if thats what you mean.

All ive seen so far is more and more threads about kunlun practice.
More and more beginners come to the taobums looking for guidance and not surprisingly the first thing they run into is kunlun.

So no im not trying to offend or start an arguement, I just wanted to present some previously unposted information to help those coming to to look for real taoism and finding a huge number of posts about kunlun.

I'd agree a healthy self respect is good for enlightenment and those fortunate enough to be cultivating a real practice are unaffected either way.

But beginners are coming to this site as one of the most popular taoist forums online for help, so of course there should be a healthy debate, otherwise the teachings with the largest number of adherents dominates the forum and thats all the beginners see. This shouldn't go unchecked, especially when terminology/tactics are being used that would blind the average seeker, whether intentional or not.

[Trunk]

Jakara, on Jan 11 2008, 01:28 PM, said:

of course there should be a healthy debate, otherwise the teachings with the largest number of adherents dominates the forum ... This shouldn't go unchecked, ..

I whole-heartedly agree.

My observation is that every group's social dynamic has some sort of weak point (just like every individual does).. and there inevitably is a "party line", group social psychology influences and people tend to go along with the party line while trying to mine the good stuff.

One of the things about TheTaoBums that (for me, at least) makes it what-it-is, is that there's fundamentally no group (or something like that) and so no party line. That's what has made it such a refreshing and productive forum.

My conclusion with kunlun - and I went through my own version of what you're going through - is that it's not a place for me to practice intellectual discernment (which is a real, valid part of the path). The method is sweet and if you can observe your own internals, have some prior study under your belt, you'll sort it out conceptually yourself and that can help with your own practical navigation. If you're this sort of spiritual-intellectual, it'll mostly frustrate you to try to sharpen your theory-sword from the book/seminar. (Private sessions are sometimes a different story.) Give the method a whirl, though, probably you'll like it enough to keep it.

There are other personality types for whom these are non-issues. The kunlun group, personally, is a very fun crowd and they have a gas. Max had the whole room laughing, including me, when I went. The method is fun and productive and pretty kind: by far mostly people get benefit, whether they know why or not. Max, imho, actually is quite developed. I have several friends who have stayed involved with the group, to varying degrees, and they're clearly having fun and enriching~refining. I'm grumpy and kicking rocks off somewhere in the sidelines.

Trunk

~ later edit ~
p.s. And it's not that Max doesn't know process; that's just not the emphasis of this group's presentation. Not the strongest part of their presentation.

[sykkelpump]

If you believe you will be enlightened by standing on one leg, or pointing a sword finger, or doing anything..guess what..you will.






NO,you will not

[Jakara]

Yes the taobums has been described as non-sectarian, so i guess that would include other groups too.

I guess I am what you might call an intellect, and therefore think and question things in that intellectual manor. I'd agree intellect is not required whilst actually practicing techniques, but perhaps it should be used to determine which techniques to practice in the first place.

Im glad you guys have a great time, and from what you say Max is a nice guy and very entertaining to boot. I wouldn't suggest otherwise. But still have to object to what is being claimed as authentic taoist techniques when so many flaws are apparent. I don't have personal agenda here, but have to point out the flaws to those who are questioning them.

[Kreecher]

I'm a beginner. As I said in the introduction thingy, I've never done anything related to taoism before. I'm very interested in this link as well (I've just purchased the kunlun book). I want to look at Kunlun from all sides. No matter what comes out of this thread, I will still read the book so I can make up my own mind, keeping all the gained information in the back of my mind.

But in the meanwhile: DarinHamel - you said it's been discussed to death here, perhaps you could post some links directly to that thread ? This forum is huge, so it would be a real help.

I do have some reservations, some along the line of Jakara's... One of them is this hunt for 'bliss'. Isn't bliss just another emotion to get addicted to ? A way for the ego to cling to the illusion it likes? I find it strange that bliss seems to be used as a synonym for enlightenment. I would agree it could be a side effect yes... is this perhaps what was meant ?

300euro's is a very steep price for a 4 hour lecture ... if this price is acurate of course, one does wonders where it comes from... However, it's not unheard of that prices can be very steep for some courses. I do not wish to pass judgement over such courses, as this is a free world and it truly is to each his/her own. But without passing judgement, I do wonder if it is really necesary to ask such a high fee... And of course the 15$ book could be offered as a pdf in download... just a thought.
-> I do have to mention the other side too of course. There will be travel expenses and such for the seminars. You don't know if food and beverages are offered. The rooms in which the seminars take place need to be paid for as well... But even then, it's a lot for 4 hours... Perhaps a price varying based on the number of people attending the seminar could be a fair solution

Pictures of light hands, hahaha, yes... well video can be just as easily manipulated... just so you know. Perhaps this is one of these things a person only believes when they see it, and even then, illusionists/magicians have done some pretty nifty things in front of audiences as well... Well, you'll just have to try for yourself I guess

Hm, writing a book, creating a website, doing seminars doesn't necesarily mean that you'd want followers. If I'd have a way to help a lot of people, I'd want to reach as many of those people as I possibly could... The publicizing, yeah I'm kind of in a pickle on that one. I'm actually going to have to make such a decision of my own... On the one hand I'd rather make a personal investment and try to meet people via (free) seminars and such. But this takes time that you can then not invest in actually transferring knowledge. But then again, if you're really the real deal, word of mouth will be all the publicity you need... But again, wanting to reach as many as possible ... ah, hard decision I'd say...

The flow of magnetic power through the body, the black hole stuff, the UV-3,magnetism being related to clarity, ... it's not okay to make statements that can't be proven, but who says they can't ? Perhaps they have been ? ... DarinHamel, are there any threads where there might be answers to those things ? Or do you perhaps know somebody that can ? (sorry to direct these questions at you, but you seem to know a bit about this)

Anyway, I've been on other fora where people suddenly took offense to certain ideas, leading to people leaving and such just like in this one. I feel this is truly a shame (especially coz I wanted to know more about kunlun and now the actual buffs are leaving allready)...

These types of websites are the ones where people dwell that often state that they are very open minded, loving and tolerant. Then where is this tolerance and open mindednes when (genuine) questions are being asked about beliefs or practices... Why do people feel attacked when they're supposed to be filled with love ? Feeling attacked is a choice. Even IF it was the intention of the writer of a certain reply to offend, hurt or attack... Even then it is your OWN choice to feel offended. You càn read around all the childishness and find the actual question between all the fluff. If you do not wish to be offended or angry, nobody can make you. They can try, but it'll be your choice.

I'd really like to encounter a forum where there are plenty people truly open minded and tolerant enough to make an actual effort (an effort that doesn't involve separation ). Usualy the ones trying to push your buttons, do so because something you said or did, made them think. Something hit home... So sad so many opportunities get wasted, so sad so many knowledge gets diffused because of childlike banter, especially in a time when sticking together should be a priority.

Ah well ... some day...

@jakara - authentic taoist techniques -> which ones would you (or others if they want) suggest to look into ?

This post has been edited by Kreecher: 11 January 2008 - 02:37 PM

[durkhrod chogori]

A Taoist I once met told me:

You know what is the problem with people who get engaged in the spiritual path?

They want results quickly and if they approach this path that way they never achieve anything. When they ask me: Master, how long will it take me to read people's minds? I tell them 20 years. They say: Wow! But master I can't wait that long. They ask me again: What if instead of practicing two hours per day I practice four. I tell them: You'll achieve that power after 30 years.

When he gave me this example I understood really well the wisdom contained within these words.

Guess what?

I was one of those guys


All methods are good, some take longer than others but it's not the method and goal what you should focus upon, it's the path.

In this business patience and persistence lead toward enlightenment. Remember that Siddharta Buddha almost DIED because of it.

Just enjoy what you are doing.

[Taomeow]

del

This post has been edited by Taomeow: 11 January 2008 - 03:16 PM

[Jakara]

Thats great, I'm not suggesting kunlun isn't real, im just pointing out some evidence, by all means make your own mind up about it. As I said I have no agenda and nothing to gain or lose either way.

As for the science parts, Im fully qualified to answer them directly as I have done.

Ideally if the forum were full of qualified teachers there wouldn't be many arguements, but its mostly beginners looking for more information on taoism and taoist practice, so i guess thats where much of the hostility can come from. Its natural, you only need to put a person behind an internet connection or the wheel of a car to see raw human compulsion.

I would suggest looking at sources that we know to be genuine, for example the Tao Te Ching, compare sources like this and others which you know to be accurate and see which ones are most likely to be true. If you have access to a qualified teacher all the better.

This post has been edited by Jakara: 11 January 2008 - 03:06 PM

[Taomeow]

sorry... she told me not to tell. My apologies.

[durkhrod chogori]

Jakara, on Jan 11 2008, 03:04 PM, said:

Ideally if the forum were full of qualified teachers there wouldn't be many arguements, but its mostly beginners looking for more information on taoism and taoist practice, so i guess thats where much of the hostility can come from. Its natural, you only need to put a person behind an internet connection or the wheel of a car to see raw human compulsion.

I would suggest looking at sources that we know to be genuine, for example the Tao Te Ching, compare sources like this and others which you know to be accurate and see which ones are most likely to be true. If you have access to a qualified teacher all the better.

You don't need to be a teacher to be qualified. I am not what you'd say a beginner but if I showed some interest in Kunlun in another thread is because I was curious about this method. Plain and simple curiosity and perhaps to bring something different into my repertoire of exercises.

There is no better system. I think you need to re-read my previous post. If you rush in this path you'll hit a wall.

How long have you been practicing for?

According to this list:

http://en.wikipedia....tter_(Buddhism)


Where are you at?

Sorry if I sound rude but far from that if I ask you something so personal is because I am trying to figure out whether you are experiencing the dark night of the soul or not:

http://en.wikipedia....ght_of_the_soul

In addition this page gives valuable insight (nothing new btw ) about our positioning as humans whithin Samsara:

http://en.wikipedia....f_enlightenment


Regards.

[Mal]

durkhrod chogori, on Jan 12 2008, 09:47 AM, said:

According to this list:

http://en.wikipedia....tter_(Buddhism)
Where are you at?

2. doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings (vicikicchā)[6]
4. sensual desire (kāmacchando)[8]
5. ill will (vyāpādo or byāpādo)[9]
7. lust for immaterial existence (arūparāgo)
10. ignorance (avijjā)[13]

I'm still bound by the above, at least.

[Jakara]

I wasn't sure if those questions were directed at me or not but ill answer them anyway.

Agreed, there are many qualified who don't teach. Perhaps there are even many on this forum, though probably more beginners as thats what the forum is made for. Ive been practicing for a few years.

Apologies I don't know where I am on the buddhist list, but then I'm not a buddhist. No offence taken, no im not a dark night of the soul, a similar concept is described in taoist experience, its confusing if you don't realise you're entranced, but how can we realise we are entranced if you can only think within the limits of the trance you're in? I guess we both know non-dualistic meditation is the answer, its the only way to know you aren't entranced, by definition.

Thanks for the links, I love buddhism, interesting and effective to say the least.

[mbanu]

Kun Lun isn't Taoism, it's just a hobby that's popular among Taoists. Like drinking.

[Trunk]

Jakara, on Jan 11 2008, 11:56 AM, said:

So I cant really learn from the book and practice effectively. The seminars .. are an essential part of the program, ..

A number of people here at TTB's have practiced effectively with just the book, some haven't and needed the seminar also. People vary.

Quote

The seminars (which cost $300 each) are an essential part of the program, along with the "initiation" ... Taking these into account it only takes 20 or so people to make $6000 for 4 hours work - 1 seminar.

I don't know about the inner finances & politics of the Kunlun group specifically, from the outside it looks like several other groups I've seen.

To attain the sort of level that I've observed in Max, it's generally considered ... extremely rigorous. Part of what makes a good student on the fast path is sheer survivability in terms of physical stamina (doesn't die) and psychological resilience (doesn't go insane). The people who make it through have been through a lot, there's a kind of a * whew! * and ... "what?, you want me to teach? .. Ok: if you make it happen, I'll show up."

... I mean, teaching is also often they're calling, they enjoy at least some aspects of it, is of real service and the correct next organic step ... all of that, too.

Then you have one, or several, students who get the events off the ground, make the logistics happen... I was that person, for a little while for a small group-episode. One of my main first reactions was, "wow, expenses add up!". From the outside I never would've guessed how much it cost for such a modest advertise-travel-event. For a set-up like kunlun, my first guess would be that no one is making money (hopefully they're saving a little for momentum - but that's hope), and it's likely that some of the inner circle has sustained occasional dents to their personal credit cards (not at the Teacher's direction, but because they want to put on the events and they make the logistics happen). The teacher's profit hopefully includes coffee and a meal, hopefully makes a few new friends. Like I said, I don't know anything about inner Kunlun politics, but all that'd be typical. Bottom line: you guys aren't getting ripped off, and they're probably flying a lot closer to the trees than you'd assume.

I've just been hoping that they'll grow over the next several years, and make it to "stable comfortable" territory.

[durkhrod chogori]

Mal, on Jan 11 2008, 04:09 PM, said:

2. doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings (vicikicchā)[6]
4. sensual desire (kāmacchando)[8]
5. ill will (vyāpādo or byāpādo)[9]
7. lust for immaterial existence (arūparāgo)
10. ignorance (avijjā)[13]

I'm still bound by the above, at least.

We are all down here learning and growing.

Thanks for sharing your experience.


Trunk,


To attain the sort of level that I've observed in Max, it's generally considered ... extremely rigorous. Part of what makes a good student on the fast path is sheer survivability in terms of physical stamina (doesn't die) and psychological resilience (doesn't go insane). The people who make it through have been through a lot, there's a kind of a * whew! * and ... "what?, you want me to teach? .. Ok: if you make it happen, I'll show up."

Hmm...The Buddha almost died and got nowhere. Probably he strengthened himself but when in a more relaxed state (instead of torturing his body with extreme fasting episodes and meditating amongst cadavers), and deep in meditation under the Bodhi tree he reached spiritual enlightenment and one of the things he taught was the Middle Path; in other words, the practice of non-extremism. Maybe Kunlun is borderline the extreme path. Just a thought.

[thelerner]

don't think Kunlun is bogus. I do question if its a complete system. Its so simple. it has no philosophy. Will it get you enlightened? What a loaded question. What will Get you enlightened? Depends what you mean by it,( and You and Enlightened). Even the Buddha didn't hand out guarantees or money back.

Kunlun might be a powerful tool to head you in the right direction til there's no you one way or the other. I'm glad we have people here posting their experiences. If its a simple kindergarden level system I think we'll see progress stall. Im just as happy to find out the progress other people are making with there practices.

One problem with Kunlun and I found this with HT as well is, we're not studying regularly under a teacher. We go to a seminar, pick up a video, but its not the same. To meet regularly, meditate in a group, be near high octane people is a kick in the spiritual pants.

Michael