It seems the "highest" or vajra vehicle is simply composed of the Tao at heart.

Is there some dangerous black magic in buddha-land?

I find it hard, if not impossible to cultivate buddhahood realistically...
The quantum buddha concept...it is all great but the Tao seems a lot more whole in some respects?

Pero's reply is more elegant then anything I could think of.

Michael

When I read this I did this also

Then I remembered my Shifu's, Master Xuan Hua, commentary on The Sixth Patriarch's Dharma Jewel Platform Sutra. Here is an excerpt from the commentary in reference to Daoism:

Commentary;

"The 10th Patriarch, Arya Parshva, lived in his mother's womb for more than 60yrs. He was born with white hair and a white beard , just like Laozi in China.
Laozi lived in his mother's womb for 81yrs and was born with white hair and a long beard. They named him "Lao Zi" which means "Old Child", but he was actually a reincarnation of Mahakashyapa. He was born in China because Shakyamuni Buddha had noticed the Chinese had good karmic roots. Most of them did not believe in the Buddha, however, so Mahakashyapa was sent to China to found the religion of Daoism, which is the same as the Brahman religion of India and which cultivates purity of Conduct.
Arya Parshva, the 10th Patriarch, was born with a liking for cultivation. When he met the 9th Patriarch, Buddhamitra, he left home and the Dharma door of the Buddha's mind seal was transmitted to him."

Interesting that I should quote this passage, because this sutra has been glowing for the last 20 minutes before signing on to Taobums.

Buddhism is not complicated at all, and can be easily cultivated. There is nothing wrong with the cultivation. It is the mind cultivating which has the obstructions.

Especially this; If the teacher of the Buddha Dharma is confused about the Buddha Dharma him/herself, then they are not teaching the proper Dharma and thus lead their disciples into further confusion. Any confusion of the Buddha Dharma is a result of improper teachings from the teacher itself. Thus, it only points that the mind cultivating has the obstructions.
If the cultivator cannot understand, they must find a good wise knowing adviser who can lead them on the proper path of cultivating.

Water is water, and can refresh the body when dehydrated, but if the glass/cup is brought to the mouth too swiftly, the water spills everywhere and cannot refresh the dried body.
Is it that the water is not capable, or is it that the drinker is not properly drinking?

Peace,
Aiwei

...an interesting thread this will be

Another interesting thing I may add is that upon opening the Sutra I quoted from in my above response,
I opened exactly to the page which states the commentary on Lao Zi.

Peace and Happiness,
Aiwei

Interesting synchronicity,However, Lao Zi did not found Taoism.

Oh dear..... sorry to be so pedantic, but surely the link you provided suggests that Lao Zi did indeed found Taoism - at least in its religious aspect as per the quote given from the Platform Sutra:

I know, I'm a sad git. Perils of a life spent in academia

Peace,
ZenB

well of course to buddhists lao tzu is gonna be buddha's disciple!
...just like how to hindus buddha is but an avatar of vishnu.
i imagine many taoists would offer a different story about the origins of lao tzu, and perhaps even about those of taoism in general.
so who makes this stuff up?
surely it is but a mirror of our own dreaming.
yet why follow some else's fairy tale?

Maybe Mao was right that religion is the opiate of the people!!! or... perhaps we just need to take a step back and relate our deepest inner beings to a realm of existeance that does not differentiate from a place of ego, but from that of cosmic oneness... Then all thoughts are dangerous and all thoughts are laughable and all thoughts are sweet as a baby's breath...Intent and direction - moment by moment - dictate harm and blessings...
any given thing or idea has no intrinsic value or danger without the moment that it exists in as the true context of its character for each moment it exists....
or maybe not...

That was my reaction on reading the first post - that and a big belly laugh.

people are dangerous

this giant bucket of legos is infinte
build what you will

The reason why Buddhists see Lao Zi as a disciple of Buddha is because there is a full on connection with every one and everything. Remember, Buddhism is just a catch phrase to the awakened, enlightened mind. In all full enlightenment, there is no mark, no label of what is to be considered Buddhism or not.
When brought with the teachings of Lao Zi, we see their moral and virtuous cultivation is a mirror image of that of Buddhism. Also, many great sages in this world are none other than great realized beings who have taken bodies that only we can perceive of as human. So, you have the body of the mother of Jesus who looked to us like an ordinary woman, but was none other than Guan Yin in certain form to teach certain people a manner of cultivation that fit for them.
This example is just pointing to the fact that those relaized, enlightened beings can take any shape and any mannerism they choose that they see fit to teach living beings to be good, do good, and attain enlightenment...eventually.
When a Buddhist goes to visit a Mosque, they do not look and laugh at Allah, they respect Allah because A God will be a Buddha someday, and a buddha can be a God for all we know.
This whole point here gives one the mental direction to realize that all of the teachings in this world are all interconnected, and function according to the capacity of the minds of living beings. There are teachings of Buddhism that people just can't understand, and can't even get to, so their level of understanding cannot go higher...until it does.
And we only call it Buddhism because the function of the teachings lead one to eventually, either suddenly or gradually, attain pure complete wisdsom, pure complete patience, and pure complete compassion. These 3 are only 1, and the one has no marks, no labels of itself. The teachings lead one ot attain unadulterated wisdom. Thats why it is called Buddhism. There should be no misunderstanding of this.


Lastly but not leasst, the phrase Daoism really started with LaoZi. Before him, people never used the word Dao, but used Fangshi...lifestyle, or manner of living. They worked with spirits, gods, ghosts and illuminated beings. Worked methods to cultivate according to what they couldknow, but not everyone was doing it. They had their own lifestyle.

Peace,
Aiwei


Like I said, an interesting thread indeed.

who hears this?

i must go, the tea kettle is whistling

who hears that?

peace,
paul

Respect, but not more than to other sentient beings. Humans will be Buddhas too and so on.




You do.

Nobody.

The manner of my posting is not to defend anything beliefs, or manners seen, in the cultivation ways of Buddhism. Just to point out that Those labelled Buddhas and Bodhisattvas did not just appear when the Shakyamuni Buddha was in the world. It didn't start with him, and the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas did not all attain their enlightenment when Shakyamuni Buddha was in the world over 2,500 yrs ago.
It was only during that time that these teachings were able to be realized in this world. That's all. THe sages we look to today may well be great enlightened beings. We can only see them as a human sage because of our own mental capacity to recognize them. If wee cultivated to higher levels, we could see them and recognize them for their other bodies that they manifest in.
It is just that when Shakyamuni Buddha was in the world, he told of the stories of the great sages, Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the past, and what they had accomplished. It was from him that the stories were past down.

In seeing all living beings, in Buddhist cultivation and Daoist cultivation, there is to be a mutual, familial respect towards them. People do not know who has been their mother or father, son or daughter in the past. Sometimes people marry a cow they have killed in a past life, and live in a relationship where the husband or wife seem to only want to lay around, eat all the time, slowly move, think slowly, use all the money for oneself...the list can go on.

THe point is, one really doesn't know where the connection lies until they do. And they can only do it through cultivation, meditation and keeping a strong foundation of guidelines so they do not retreat from dilligent practice.

Don't believe what I wrote about Lao Zi, cultivate for yourself and then ask him.

Peace and Happiness,
Aiwei

Oh and one more thing.... The Qigong that was cultivated through the Immortals and Heavenly masters of Daoist sects all came from the Heavens, came through their cultivation.

If one of them was more tending to the evil ways of things, they learned techniques from the demon heavens, if more loving and compassionate, they learned from those in the Heavens of bright and illuminated beings.

And all those teachings are interrelated. But some do not lead you to the complete goal of enlightenment unless those who have been completely enlightened teach you.

Peace,
Aiwei

People are pussycats.

It's the Buddha who's dangerous.

Peace,
ZenB

when the hot sun burns away the dense fog,
to the fog, the sun is dangerous



peace,
paul

Wonderful!

This is a lesson all in and of itself.
It can be cultivated, contemplated and will bring one to proper understanding
of the defiled mind and the Buddha mind.

Amituofo


Aiwei

pussycats are dangerous too!

Though usually I try to be forebaring and let things pass that are only related to money and matterialism...Since some lawyers stole my inheritance, I am feeling dangerous these days and need to calm myself into a state of acceptance of this just being my karma...

Jing retention and meditation ain't cutting it when there are a few lawyers who I think are evil incarnate...So at this point in time... My energy is dangerous and no amount of calming influence is making me deal with my anger other than keeping me from actually doing harm to these miscriants...

I shall stay as calm as I am able until this awful feeling passes as all feeling pass...

Yes. Quite so.

But then, so is Taoism.

Anything that can cause powerful benefit can, under incorrect circumstances, also cause powerful harm.

I know that Taoism at least comes with a child-proof safety cap in the form of the fact that even correctly translated Lao-tzu and Chuang-tzu are often 2 parts cryptic gibberish to 1 part gibbery crypticisms, with a funny story or three thrown in. Or at least, they are until you provide the right context. The teachings are formed like a prism; shine the light in one way, out comes one angle; shine the light in a different way, out comes a different one. The most dangerous angles can't normally be unlocked without the right context; and usually if you have the right context, you are desperately in need of them.

I would think that Buddhism must surely have something similar; After all, they are two separate solutions for the exact same problem.

In Buddhism and Daoist cultivation, there are teachings that are accessible to anyone who would like them. Those teachings are fundamental prcatices. But not all of the teachings are for everyone. The reason being one's personal character and most importantly one's manner and level of cultivation.

Peace and Happiness,
Aiwei

there is a point in cultivation
where the mirror is smashed
for there is nothing to reflect


peace,
paul

At that point,
there is no need for Dharma.

It is because of his expertise in the art of smashing mirrors,
that the Buddha is so dangerous

Peace,
ZenB

It is a good dangerous.. hahaha
It is the dangerous that only the demons fear most.

People don't fear...it is the conditions they harbour which result in
their experiencing of fear. It is unnatural to fear, but natural for certain conditions to result in fear,

Peace,
Aiwei

Hmmmm.

Now that's an interesting concept.

Personally I don't fear much. That just kind of happened over time and I'm not sure why. I don't fear death - I don't even fear speaking in front of hundreds of people.

But I'm curious about your opinion. What is it that makes people cling to their perception of conditions that results in the experience of them as fear.

It is the constant thinking and acting on that which is considered fearful. People have given themselves
thoughts about situations they are not clear about. Then, they accept other's views on those things, and from that ignorance also create other views as well.
With all of this piled on in their mind, they act, think and experience the function of the false thinking of things.
Originally, nothing fears. But with ignorance constantly entertained, fear is a result.

Peace,
Aiwei

Gotcha.
我明白。

哇 不错！呵呵

On TV last night I saw a little mongolian goat having its testicles ripped out - it was trying to run away and sqwealing loudly - is that fear or just an ignorant goat?

Ignorance which results in fear.

"you" are fear
get rid of "you" no fear
ahhh but we fear to do that!




hahahahaha
now what will we do?

There is only one thing to do in that case...

Keep creating the result of the same thing that has been the result of ignorance, greed and anger.

Or, get hit in the head with a great old Chan stick !

HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA

A goat is pretty authentic - is it capable of ignorance?

(I realise the initial over-anthropomorphism involved in my original question lol)

If the goat is capable of ignorance, does that make the animal kingdom ignorant?

I dont necessarily disagree - but maybe the value of ignorance is underplayed? Or maybe the the value of whatever the goat is ignorant of is over-inflated?

The main cause of sentient beings going to animal realm is ignorance.

That goat knew damn well that something "bad" was happening to him... & NOT that the outcome would be a physical change that could bring a more peaceful life (such as it is)... there was no "knowledge" of this in the goat...He knew that there was pain and terror at hand...

he had no way of knowing that he would be a calmer goat there after- or until the herders wanted another piece of him...

We, as humans, have a better grasp of what futures will arise from present cercumstances... or most of us could if we put our minds to it...

The ignorance that evokes violence due to inner anger is not the blind rush of avoidence due to real pain and terror that having ones' balls nabbed would incure...There are very different things to fear and/or accept in life.

That some of us can transcend the horrors inflicted upon us and others lash-out is the question here...
Are Buddahs teachings of "turning the other cheek" a threat to our well-being? Not if Karma is real to us... Other wise it is prudent to take that eye for an eye...

Not sure what you mean here - are you talking about re-incarnation or something?

Your animal nature is the lower realm - it's the lower tan tien - it's connected to the earth and earthly wisdom - it's where inuition comes from. Shamans used to journey to the lower realm and find their power animal - which would protect them and enable their tribe to hunt and gather plenty of food.

Yes and no, reincarnation. In general animal kingdom is ignorant. But this isn`t meant ignorance like in an intellectual way, that they don`t know math or something like that. Ignorance more like lack of awareness, a state of sloth and torpor.

Those uses of primal energy of the Dantian are only metaphors, they are not literal. It is called primal because it is a raw manifestation of energy, but it isn't animal like at all. It resonates through a human body, thus has the refinement needed to be expressed through a human body.
Anyone can tap into that great strength, but it mostly comes out when there is a traumatic situation manifesting. Scientists view it as adrenaline. Some call it animal like strength...only because they can't get it whenever they want. THat doesn't mean that our energy is animal like.

Even though Earth energy is connected in the lower dantian, everyother part of the body isn't excluded from it. There are different expressions of that same energy through different toolsof the body, organs, limbs so to say. Each one can only handle a certain expression of energy and will express it according to its ability.

Finding one's power animal is a result of quieting the mind, vibrating high enough to hear the minds of the animal realm and learn the animal's ...gong fu as we say in Shengong when in learning from the animal realm, trees, etc. It is a result from proper will and intent. The dantian is just the place to focus on, but the intent is to learn and gain strengths from what ever source.

What we are talking of here is exactly not intellectual ignorance, but awareness. If an animal understood why it was getting killed, he would sit quietly.

Peace,
Aiwei





The turning of the other cheek that Buddha taught was that of wisdom. How? In our cultivation, we may be able to awaken to our past expereinces. Knowing that what we had done before results in many of the myriad experiences we have now. ANyone looking for a life to kil is looking to settle a debt.
Knowing this, one can easily stop and put down the "I" that has a well being. In puting down, the simple act of being okay with it all may actually lead the person looking for repayment to awakening, or even a changing of mind.
There is a manner of well being in Buddhism, and it is of seeing all beings as one's family, elders as one's mother and father, etc. Keeping one's body healthy is a result of a healthy mind, clear and wise. This is being selfless for without a healthy body and a wise mind, how can one go and help others?

Peace,
Aiwei

I think we are addressing two seperate forms of avoidence and or reaction here. One is of the moment and reactive to the physical attack on one's body... the other a manifestation of inner anger stored or acquired at previous states of being...

There are very different reactions and states of mind attached to these states of being. One calls for instantanious choices to be made as danger arises and the other is more contemplative and long-term in nature.

Taoism does not hold such a passivistic view of life. All actions have a place and time to be natural and non-judgemental in nature/attitude. The moment by moment reality is where we find our awareness of proper activity, being in the moment and accepting of all facits of nature . We then address the limits and extensions of our powers to live as best we can... There is little value placed on non-violence per se...As long as - It is not used as a force to coerce or inforce will... it is used to protect and administer just admonishment or the staying of excessive coercion from outside...

BALANCE is the key in my minds' view of these things... the "right and wrong" of them is almost irrelavent in the most part, because the appropriate response can be a smile at... or a blow to the head of... those we confront/share with... in our mutual reality...

I for one do not accept many Buddist notions of right and wrong action...the value judgements used are not my values.

Well said.

Though I would possibly say "consensual reality" instead of "mutual reality." Even with only two people I doubt a "mutual reality" can exist - perception being as individual and dynamic as it is. But when there is two or more people present we come to an unspoken concensus for the condition of our shared environment.

"...consensual reality" instead of "mutual reality." Even with only two people I doubt a "mutual reality" can exist - perception being as individual and dynamic as it is...."

Though this is conceptually true - I also trust that the Oneness of Taoist precepts can transcend the individual barriers that our seperate realities dictate...In the molecular levels we are all one...( as I picture our shared existance in the quantum explanation, again only as I am able to understand it)...our minds and physical beings do indeed coexist as interchangable energies/masses in time and space.

The question of immortal spirit is another realm that may need to be addressed in these issues - be they trans-mutated in reincarnation or somehow morphed in a heaven/hell scenario can be argued ad nausium...

But as a Taoist (wannabe) I hold us all to be essentially one (in spirit) and individual only in the realm of our senses...

I agree with you on this I think. There is a meta-reality we all are a part of and participate in. And we each participate in it separated by the tuning of our senses and beliefs.

So each of us experiences the meta-reality (or the Tao if you will) through layers our own gauze veils of senses and beliefs. At a physical level, even the hue of color that falls on optic nerves is effected at least minimally by the hue of our iris. At a non-physical level the meta-reality is colored by our belief sets.

As a Taoist (wannabe) I'm trying to get down to the sheerest of gauze possible while I inhabit this physical vessel.

Peace,