Robert Peng is the only one I know of. Do you guys know any others? Can you provide links?

Thanks

I am not sure,but I have heard that gary clyman have some good skills.
http://chikung.com/

i don't think clyman's skill qualifies for the level of documented abilities you're looking for. if it does, you should just come train with me.

i know that sounds snotty (and it is!), but i find him to be extremely unbalanced and ego-maniacal. i watched one of his public talks and (supposed) demonstrations that he gave in his area. he's KNOWN for being a real pompous jerk, and he doesn't hide his high opinion of himself or his contempt for others. so at least you'd be able to see him coming, i guess.

to demonstrate his energy ability he took the knuckle of his index finger and dug it into various meridian points of different volunteers to see which points would hurt. different people DID respond to different points, but NO ONE (not even the participants) considered it a demonstration of his energy.

i have no doubt that he can manifest it to some degree, but then why resort to such a dubious demo? he does practice some real energy building exercised, but his lack of control, refinement, and especially his lack of high ability is evident to any serious cultivator.

after decades of training, he broke a sweat while demonstrating horse stance techniques for like 5 minutes. then he almost bragged about the fact that he was sweating so early, as if it was proof of how much energy he controlled!

yeah, i'm not a fan. i've only been seriously committed to cultivation for the past few years, but i would gladly take the pepsi challenge against clyman.

if not for his arrogance, he could easily pick up 2 or 3 books and correct most of his errors.

he has had some success in treating people. i don't deny that. but that doesn't take high ability. his popularity has more to do with him constantly spouting about how amazing he is than anything he's actually done.

in my opinion he could very well have the potential to break through to real attainment, but it won't happen if he never gets over himself.

but that's my take.

it may help if you could define what you mean by "documented abilities." healing ability is very important, but it's considered to be a rather low level of cultivation.

wong kiew kit teaches publicly, and many of his abilities are documented. perhaps the most impressive one being when he and one of his students split clouds in front of a crowd of hundreds. it made the paper.

if abilities where what i was looking for in a public teacher, i would probably train with jerry alan johnson. his sincere pursuit of the internal arts is unquestionable, in my opinion. i have never seen an american (or many chinese, for that matter) with the exquisite precision that he demonstrates in his forms. true mastery at the level of body mechanics.

his textbooks have become the standard in the hospitals in beijing.

he doesn't publicly display his 'higher' abilities, but who knows- you might be able to dig something up if you search. all i can say is that i can vouch for this man's skill.

he doesn't advertise himself as being a god like so many others, and, to me, that speaks volumes about his level of internal realization.

only in the past few years did he begin teaching the daoist mystical arts. for decades it was his private journey that he didn't talk about much. he still doesn't talk much about what he has seen and what he can do.


he's the most skilled AND most genuine practitioner i know.



and... um... given the nature of the posts you've been making, i can't help but feel like maybe it's power, and NOT awakening, that you're looking for.

what is it that you're really seeking? i'm not looking to judge you; i'm just looking for honesty.


i have students who come to me looking for power all the time, and i don't necessarily turn them away. some i do, but not all. in fact, my highest student first came to me claiming that he wanted to awaken, but in a very short time it became clear that he wanted the magical abilities. not because he was a bad person, but because he thought it would validate him in a way that he hadn't experienced in his own life. we talked through it over a period of months, and now he has more ability than he's even explored yet, but it doesn't matter because now he has experienced the radical consciousness, joy, and peace that can't be gained by superficial manifestations of power.


it's perfectly okay to want whatever it is you want, but it's important to clear away the illusions that you may associate with those things. if you're sincere, the process is going to transform you anyway, so it doesn't really matter what first motivates you. but self-honesty is of paramount importance.

if you truly just want to awaken and nothing more, there are a number of people in this forum who could give you those keys in 2-page email. it's not rocket science. it takes self-discipline and commitment. but it's not complicated at all.

i hope this doesn't offend in any way. i'd really like to foster this dialog.

Hei,you say your student have abilities.What kind of abilities are you talking about??


in fact, my highest student first came to me claiming that he wanted to awaken, but in a very short time it became clear that he wanted the magical abilities. not because he was a bad person, but because he thought it would validate him in a way that he hadn't experienced in his own life. we talked through it over a period of months, and now he has more ability than he's even explored yet

i don't know the tone of your question. "Hei" is hard to translate, and you could be saying "hey" or "heh," and those imply two very different sentiments. the two question marks leads me to think you meant the latter.

either way:

my intention was merely to illustrate a point. abilities are not hard to come by. they happen on their own with consistent daily practice. i'm sure there are a number of people on this forum who both have and teach others to develop various abilities.

i don't want to answer your question because i feel it moves the conversation in the wrong direction. however, i know how irritating those kinds of responses can be, so i'll share a little.

his talent as a healer is rapidly increasing.

he's becoming a talented empath.

he can make out the energy currents in another person's body, though he's still not skilled at manipulating them yet.

he can change the taste of any liquid just by placing his hand over it for about 30 seconds.

in a row of 5 overturned buckets he can consistently find the stone or small cup of water hidden underneath.


...and other stuff. not really important. what's important is that as he develops he realizes that parlor tricks don't bring fulfillment. he believes in genuine service, just as i do, which is why he's decided to stay with me and develop as a healer.

improving the lives of others is real magic. we learn so much about ourselves and about life when we dive into the depths of another.

I am hot-tempered when I come here, my apologies. I have abilities but I don't have balance. Posts like this bother me. If your student can truly do these things, it is a simple matter to do them for the Randi challenge. Please do them and prove to the scientific community that these abilities exist. Proof will encourage people worldwide to follow the path to enlightenment.

Or at least take the Randi challenge themselves and earn a bob or two

Well said, witch!

Peace,
ZenB

Oxymoron. People throw out Randi challenge as soon as someone mentions some special ability. But what people don`t know is that it`s not real. Randy wants people to fail, he makes them fail. Even if someone managed to pass everything, he wouldn`t give them the money. Which BTW, is very questionable that he even has it... So, pass....





Or, that they will want the same powers. Or, that they will want to control these people. Or, that they will become afraid of them and do some regrettable things. And so on...
It may also encourage of course.

Back to the science Vs. Religion thread.

I agree. These are the people I am talking about when I say there are religious scientists. They obviously can't even imagine any claim could be true. They are right in their own minds and the million buck proves it. Thus it is a "simple matter".

I'm all for exposing the faith healers after grandma's savings, fine. But I don't think that the world will be served by someone proving he can bend spoons. Everyone has to make the journey to understanding on their own. Right now science is like a baby that knows pooping and hunger and not much else.

In short, don't choose your teachers based on if they can split clouds or some other trick.

And people who want to believe in special powers automatically disregard the challenges to such claims. James Randi is not the only one out there who haas an offer like this up, so if there is such a distrust of Randi, let these so called psychics go to them (see the wiki article on the Randi challenge for similar offers). Not to mention that thus far all of the people who have attempted the challenge, have done so under the conditions that they agreed to and failed. Many people can pull off "special abilities" in public, in front of an audience, hell, even in front of a scientist (as many Randi bashers like to point out he is not a scientist, though he did fool some with a fake psychic plant that he trained), but thus far, none have been able to do so in reproducible controlled settings with sleight of hand artists watching for trickery. This is not to say there aren't unexplainable things out there, only that until they can be tested and proven (not just shown to aweinspired students for charge) they are just in the realm of faith.

I agree with everything you say wholehartedly. I'm just adding that the opposite is true: that such things don't exist is also in the realm of faith. You can't prove that the sasquatch doesn't exist or never existed. You can only look at the evidence and say "It seems unlikely". This is a scientific way of looking at it.

It also seems unlikely that any positivist will ever achieve the tao

Very true. It is that very thing which gets a diehard atheist riled up when you point out that their assertion that "there is no god" is just as much a belief as "there is a god". That statement gets people yelling rather quickly.

i figured the conversation would move in this direction.




i'll choose my words more carefully in the future.

I'm not mocking special abilities, quite the opposite. I think it trivializes true abilities like healing and empathy. Personally I believe if a person can see a hidden object, what they really have done is honed their abilities at reading people, and they are reading the slight tells the person who hid the object has.

On the contrary it's an essential discussion. I'm glad it seems we are all mostly on the same page.



:-)

Why can't somebody offer a million dollars for true demonstrations of empathy!

Randi offers 1mil to anyone who can prove supernatural or occult abilities. The challenge is rigged from the get-go... there is no such thing as supernatural or occult abilities. Even John Chang explains his abilities are completely natural. Even a Level 72 Mo Pai Master would have no supernatural abilities. If Randi were really serious he would word his challenge differently.

I am seeking enlightenment, and more importantly liberation from this cycle of death and rebirth.

That is my goal for this life, and I intend to do my very best to achieve that, and help others do the same.

I view practices like the lei shan dao (lightning and thunder path) which have a level based system, and develop powers as milestones along this system, as the only viable method for accomplishing my goals in this lifetime.

To be honest I view this reality as a dream, and have no interested in showing off magic tricks, or harming, or controlling other people. I want out, and the fastest and most logical method for this is finding a master who can back up his development along the path with abilities(such as robert peng, or john chang).

I do already have a neigong master (cannot comment further, please don't ask) who is absolutely amazing and who can some amazing things, however I want to learn all I can from all the masters I can, so I can find my own way as I always have.

I know robert peng is one such person, and I do plan on training with him. I thought maybe other people here might know of other such masters.


Thanks in advance.
-m

i understand what you're saying. and believe it or not, i agree with you that crack-pot psychics and magicians trivialize the authentic.


i just didn't want to get sucked into this kind of discussion. so, as will probably be a consistent pattern of mine on this forum, i will say what i have to say, and then leave it at that.


if your example of a person seeing a hidden object is drawn from my description of my student's abilities, then you have already jumped to conclusions that i never claimed. i never said he could 'see hidden objects.' he can't. and if he could, it still probably wouldn't occur the way you seem to assume in this statement.

perhaps it's my fault. i'll try to clarify a little.


i'm going to assume (or at least HOPE) that i don't have to spend hours writing an essay on the nature of qi energy. it's not limited to one aspect, but i think that viewing it in terms of bioelectricity is an easier, less threatening way of having the discussion. so, for the sake of this conversation, i'm going to say that qi is nothing more than bioelectricity, which is already an accepted scientific fact of our biological make-up.

well, it's also accepted that (keeping in mind that we live on a big electromagnetic rock) all matter possesses a degree of electromagnetism. everything has a subtle electromagnetic trace, if you will.

someone who has trained to store, refine, and intensify their bioelectricity is capable of sensing the electromagnetic trace of other objects, and as their sensitivity refines, they are even capable of sensing objects within objects, being that the trace of the two objects will have subtle differences.

this isn't mystical or magical. none of it is. and it doesn't take a high level of ability to do stuff like what i described, as he's only been training for a year. and contrary to popular belief, this stuff HAS been verified and documented for years. the book The Body Electric might be a good starting point for many of you science-minded folks who have a sincere interest in this matter.

what my student can do is simply place his hand over a few buckets and feel which bucket gives off a stronger intensity. and there are many conditions under which this would not work. the presence of stronger fields in the room could throw it off, as he would be unable to differentiate the currents. but it's not magic. it just looks that way to the unconscious (asleep) on-looker.

and if he reaches the level where he actually CAN see the object underneath, it will be largely based on the same principle, but with his eyes doing a much more refined differentiating.


science is not waiting on proof. the jury is back on these phenomena. conflict occurs when skeptics hear about something they know nothing about, imagine in their minds 'how' it would take place if it could take place at all, and then judge others based on their own unfounded assumptions about the process. they presume that they can test something that they don't understand, and create conditions that could influence the outcome.

his empathic ability, healing ability, and liquid changing ability, are all based on the same principles. that's why they were the ones used for the example.

many twins are able to communicate across great distances because the mind frequencies in the resonant cavity between their brain lobes and the skull (what lao tzu call the valley of the spirit, located behind the 3rd eye point) are so perfectly aligned. this, too, has been scientifically documented. but put two of these twins in the same room with either a cell phone or WiFi frequencies present, and the outcome might be different. it's almost impossible to account for all of the influences. but either way,

when you understand the process, the magic goes away.



electricity is more than just the stuff that makes your computer function. it's so much more than that. Benjamin Franklin knew this.



people die from harmful electromagnetic fields (power lines) every year. is it so hard to believe that people can also be healed by fields of a different frequency?

hitting a key on the piano will vibrate the corresponding string on a guitar 20 feet away. is that supernatural?


these are all simple, simple things. some of us are just more conscious (awake) and purposeful with the use of the phenomenon than others.


"no, i've never heard of water," said the fish. "why do you ask?"

Anyone who meditates and practices methods related to one-pointed concentration will develop special abilities with time. So what?

All the tests from those like Randy are a pure waist of time. You can make an elephant levitate in front of their eyes and they will give you 100 scientific reasons why it's not so. And for what? To prove something so others can say: "Ohhh, now I believe"? They will give up in a week after realizing they have to face themselves, and oh boy, it's not pretty. Those who meant to see the truth already saw it and are on the path because of the inner calling to grow as a human being. And those who are still waiting for amazing displays of supernatural abilities to make them convinced they’re real will be waiting for a very long time.

M.

haha that is just one thing that is too funny not to laugh at, nice

I have no doubt that energy serves as a form of subtle communication. While I am not a taoist, I am a witch. But in my experience magic always takes the easiest path, and the easiest path falls along the highest living thing. I believe people can occasionally engage in telepathy, particularly in times of heightened emotion, but I think the ability you speak of, to sense the electromagnetic field of an inanimate object hidden from sight, would not be the natural path for magic to flow. Magical ability gives a heightened sense of intuition and an uncanny ability to read a person's body language. I would be curious to see if the experiment can be replicated without your student seeing the person who hid the object.

Randi would most definitely consider this to fall into his definition of "supernatural" abilities, no matter what the person who did it would think. If this were replicable with proper controls, it would definitely qualify for the million dollars.

However, I think the result would be similar to dowsers. I have no doubt dowsers are able to find water, but believe it is more that they are able to use their intuitive sense to read subtle signs in the land indicating underground water, rather than actually "sensing" the water, because this ability vanishes when the water is sent through pipes underground in a testing situation.

Lama Tsering (Sifu Max Christensen)

Sifu Philip Toledo, a student of the above mentioned <--- ordered a few of his DVDs and something noticeably wierd happened.

Guru Santiago Dobles and Guru Tao Semko from umaatantra.com <--- attended a weekend long 16 hour class with them, what they do is pretty subtle but you'll really notice the effects 4 hours into it. Kind of like very quietly slipping in a supercharger in a car.

Hey do you mean lama tsering everest?

http://www.risingredphoenix.com/

My bad, I don't mean her, I mean Sifu Max Christensen who is found at the link above.

I just ordered his book which was released a couple days back. I saw the trailer for lama thunderbolt, and I am curious to see what he is all about. He has some DVD's for sale on the following website:

http://www.innerselfcenter.com/

One of the links says he saved the life of the Dalai Lama's teacher and was ordained and initiated into their most secret rituals etc.... I am always skeptical of fantastical claims like this without any proof. I will try to write up a review after I read it.

a true master of reality does not display
he may drive a truck really well though

For the record, could you please provide your definition of "magic" (or magick as A.C. would have it ). It just strikes me as odd that you do not want to accept the verity of what Hundun says, but you are willing to accept the existence of "magic".



I don't think Hundun said he accomplishes it by sensing the electromagnetic field. He just said he can fairly consistently find it. Perhaps he is using clairvoyance/remote viewing etc... As an aside, I believe there were some tests done a few years back which tried to link plants as carriers for human telepathy. Just kind of interesting in relation to the balance taoists and wiccans try to achieve with nature.



Could you prove any wiccan magical effects to Randi? If not, would you concede that they do not exist? Often the explanations these skeptics come up with to debunk claims are more far fetched than the phenomena itself.



Perhaps, but their ability to intuitively read the subtle signs of the land is just as intriguing as if they were somehow sensing the electro-magnetic signature as far as I'm concerned.

Anyhow, not trying to give you a hard time. Just food for thought

I have most of his videos from that site. One of a very few people I respect deeply.

All right. I believe there are four elements--earth, air, fire and water. The air realm is the realm of male magic and the water realm is the realm of female magic. The material world is the realm of earth and the world of action is the realm of fire. Almost every action is a mixture of all of these elements, and any sort of magic work will take the easiest route of fire and earth to reach its goal. So for example, the placebo effect is a form of what I would consider magic, and has of course been proven. Hypnosis, behavioral therapy--those sorts of things. I believe in almost all cases, the magic is interwoven with the earth element, so almost always there is a plausible earth explanation. In other words, the supernatural as Randi describes it rarely happens, the water element isolated on its own. However I do believe the Princeton EGG experiment has sufficiently proven the trace effect of this isolated magic.

I of course agree that honing one's instincts to such a degree is an intriguing and worthwhile thing. I also believe that on occasion people can engage in telepathy, but not on a predictable measurable basis. I do not believe in remote viewing, only remote communication between minds. Water is also the element of confusion and dreams, so the difficulty of designing a provable experiment measuring this trace effect would be similar to determining real world facts by the contents of dreams.

Here's some interview clips with various modern gurus (not sure how many of them can actually perform siddhis, though).

And has anybody heard anything about the "magnetic qigong" guy, Peter Ragnard?
He's pretty commercialized...but at the same time, I hear a ring of truth in the way he talks...some of it even sounding similar to Max's teachings.