It seems like a lot of you are finding the forum overwhelming and difficult to navigate.

One of the things I'm doing is looking into ways of making topic-lists viewable in threaded mode both in regular and also in Lo-Fi mode (great idea Max!).

I hope everyone knows that currently posts are already viewable in theaded mode. I really should have explained this right away. If you look up at the top right of any thread, you'll see an option called Outline. Click it will switch you to a threaded view.

Trunk also made a great suggestion today that I can implement immediately if you think it's a good idea. Basically, the idea is to scrap the "News and Announcements" forum completely (moving the posts to Taoist Discussion, and then making "Taoist Discussion" syndicate to the home page (www.thetaobums.com). I also thought it would be cool to put the "Latest Blog Entries" feed on the front page as well. This removes at least a little bit of unnecessary complexity and let's people easily get a scoop on the latest Taoist Discussion posts and Blog entries right on the front page.

I'd like to know what your thoughts about this idea are before proceeding.


Thanks,
Sean.

Actually, my thought was not exactly that. Keep "News & ..", and whatever other sections there are. I think they're kind of all appropriate; its just too much to wade through the choices every time i log on... to get to where i'm really interested in: the taoist discussion forum.

So, my suggestion is to make the home-page go straight to just, simply, the "taoist discussion forum".

Then, if i want to, i can go to any of the other forum sections. But, mostly, most of the time, i just want to go that basic discussion forum. So, i think it oughta start with that, only that, simply that.

Trunk

Yeah, this change is really really easy to make.

Does anyone else have an opinion about this?


Sean.

I'm easy. I tend to read all the posts anyway, regardless of which forum they are in. As long as there is an easy way to see which posts are new so that I don't miss any, the actual layout is less important (to me, that is)

i'm with bobd

Go ahead! w/whatever to simplify, imo.

Seems to me that people have been calling for simplification, in various ways, thrreads, sections... whatever way makes sense to you, imo, go for it. The continuity, even for posting and concensus, seems to be at ebb - maybe to wait for everyone to chime in at this point would be pointless.

Ok. I'll give it another day or two and then make the change. I gotta finish some freelance work I've been procrastinating forever right now anyway.

And I'm sort of confused about what to do with the News forum afterwards. I guess I really should just scrap it. Because the whole reason I created it, was to have, well, a News section for interesting recent findings that would be syndicated to the front page. Without being syndicated to the front page, the News/Announcement forums seems kind of pointless in a way.

Any thoughts?

Sean.

[EDIT]

*LIGHTBULB* I just had a cool idea. The front page can be like this

At the very top is an RSS snippet of the last News/Announcements entry.
Under that is an RSS snippet of the last Blog Entry.
Under that is a syndication of the last 5 Taoist Discussion entries.

So *BOOM*, right away the visitor has the latest scoop right in front of them.

Any misgivings with that idea?

I think that if possible it would be better to show (for a logged on user) Blogs and entries (possibly from all posts) since they last logged in (or the number of such since last login).

Also, at the moment (and I think this was mentioned by someone else), the thing that I might miss most are recent blog comments, since they are handled differently that posts. If I forget to go to Blogs, then even if I use the Assistant I miss new comments. Even if I do, then because the Blogs page only shows you the most recent comment entry per Blog, you can easily miss another comment made to a different entry in the same blog.

If you can fix that, that would be cool!

I'm for scrapping the News forum. Merge it with the regular discussion forum.

My main.. complexity-discomfort with the setup is:
"too many sections, too many places to go".

I just want to arrive to one main discussion area.

For me, seems like an assault from a bunch of messages-threads (that i didn't choose) from God-knows-which-and-how-many-sections, upon arriving.

Again, I'd rather just go to one main discussion section, see the topics and choose what i want to read. Simple.

Then, after that, if i want to browse through various other sections, i can. But mostly i'm gonna just go one place, check it, then bubbye. Simple.

Trunk

p.s. If there's any way to implement post subjects (rather than it just feeding the first # of characters of post), that would be good.

Awesome feedback guys.

Ok, News/Announcements is on real shaky ground then. It's just not really necessary or distinct enough from Taoist discussion and it's an added layer of unncessary complexity it seems.

Let's dive in and get our hands even dirtier here.

Lending Library
Yay or Nay? It just didn't take off. Maybe people prefer to just lend stuff through PM's or just post about it in Taoist Discussion. Starting to feel really unnecessary. Thoughts?

Blogs
Ironically, considering it was one of the reasons I was so excited about IPB, I am sadly kind of disappointed in the Blogs. They just seem so disconnected from the discussion to me and, like BobD says, I keep feeling like I am missing comments. Comments seem buried and feel more and more unlikely to be read and responded to as new entries are made.

Frankly I sort of liked the old Training Logs, where all of the feedback is was in one thread. I'm looking into different ways of hacking/templating/feeding the Blogs to make them have more of this feel but it's challenging.

I'd love your feedback on this.

Did you prefer the old Blogs? Would you rather see them brought back to the forefront, maybe with some custom modifications that you like about the current Blog feature?

Or are you basically happy with the new Blog seutp? Is there anything that could be done to the new Blogs that would make them better?

Contributed Articles
I'm kind of happy with this concept personally. Although perhaps it will never take off. Eventually I'd like to template this section so that when you go to it, it looks like an online Magazine, with "author" instead of poster and their avatar next to the post, and lot's of other tweaks. Any member is welcome to post in Contributed Articles, which I haven't really come up with a definition for yet, so maybe the whole idea is too vague and again not really distinct enough from Taoist discussion to be worth the extra complexity. The idea was to have a team here with special priveleges to approve contributed article posts and also to move posts that are written in Taoist Discussion to Contributed Articles.

Feel free to give your honest feedback on this.

Anything else?

Anything else that's been bothering you or that would like to discuss? Even if you can't really put your finger on it, or don't feel you can explain it right, or are afraid your are going to need to defend your feelings or perceptions somehow, don't worry, just be as vague as you want. "It just feels too complicated" is enough if you are short on time or can't explain the problems you are having in more detail. I'm just really interested in each of your user experiences here. Even if it's just a short description of what it feels like inside to come to TaoBums.

Thanks!
Sean.

OK, here are my initial thoughts. Remember that you did ask

News/Announcements
Yup, just have it as a forum/posts with the others. No need to push it any more than any other posts.

Lending Library
I agree, there doesn't seem to be enough usage or need for a different section. Its only real benefits were tracking items and advertising initial availability, but it could be done by PM or normal posts. For sake of simplicity I'd say remove it.

Blogs
I'd be in favour of a more normal post structure, like old style TB. I think that I much refered that (just had a quick look back at it to make sure!). Less danger of missing posts, clearer, simpler etc.

Contributed Articles
To be honest, I'm not sure I see the point. There are many posts in the normal forum that are articles in all but name. Perhaps just have a links section that can point to existing posts that are deeemed (by someone) to be worthy of special notice. But then again, what is to the poster a quickly dusted off one-line comment could be an insightful post, worth reading and coming back to, so the idea of abstracting some things into a different section (or links) does seem a bit artificial to me.

I learn from all the posts here, be they articles or not.

Anything else?
I quite like some abstraction, eg Taoist Discussion, Off Topic, Tech Support etc. Don't really care if they are all on the front page or not, provided that (as in my other post, but repeated her for the sake of completness) I am able to see all the posts since my last visit, easily and quickly, no matter if they be blogs entries, comments, posts, articles etc.

That could be in the form of the site telling me what is new, or of it giving me a date ordered list of all posts in each forum (ie show me that there have been 3 posts in reply to the same topic, rather than just the most recent one), so I can find them myself.

Also, perhaps allow the user to keep a setting about which date order to display posts in, so those that like can see most recent posts at the top (to save all that scrolling around)

Not sure if all this is as clear as I'd like - I'm tired and off to bed, but you can probably figure out what I mean

Zzzzzzzzzzz

Great feedback BobD. Thank you for taking the time to write that out.

I am starting to feel like it'd be a shame to kill the Blog section entirely.

If I revive the old-style training journals then what would the distinction between the two be? It could make things even more confusing.

But what if I revived the old-style training journals and called them:
Individual Practice Discussion or something. With the idea being that this is more of the place to post your practice if you want to discuss it in depth.

Whereas people can still use the Blogs for other purposes. For example, the way that Leslie is using it to keep a simple food journal. She's probably not looking to generate a huge amount of discussion about what she ate that day. More like maybe a comment here and there. Plus the fact that Blogs can have different categories and the calendar is pretty useful. You could make a category "Five Tibetans" and every time you did them, you could just add an entry in that category with a simple note "Did 5 Tibetans. Had a lot of fun with them today. Etc." ... then if you wanted to get an overview of your 5 Tibetan practice two months later, you can just filter to only look at the 5 Tibetan category and you can see maybe "wow, every Wednesday my 5 Tibetan practice was no fun. Probably because Tuesday nights I drink a fifth of vodka." or maybe "Shit. Looks like I am skipping the 5 Tibetans every other Sunday when Peggy comes to visit" or whatever.

In other words, the Blogs would be more of your own thing with obviously the option for people to leave comments here and there.

Whereas the Training Journals become "Practice Discussion" and are where you post your more in depth experiences and insights on your practice to generate discussion.

I'm kind of torn about "Contributed Articles". I've given your feedback a lot of thought and I agreed with it for about 24 hours but have since come up with some "Contributed Articles apologetics" just to play devil's advocate with. See, one of the hopes I'd had for Contributed Articles was to have it give new members a place to start. Basically a "best of" forum. Which true is highly subjective, but that's why I want to distribute the decision making process on what is/isn't a contributed article to a group of members here.

Some posts start out with just a simple inquiry "Hey, has anyone ever tried Master Wee Wee's Seven-layer Steak Form?" ... a bunch of people respond with their insights. But one member takes some time to think and write out a great detailed overview of the seven-layer steak form and all the teachers that teach it with links and her experiences with all of them. This reply has now become (subjectively) more than just ordinary discussion, it's become a resource... And in this sense isn't it perhaps beneficial to have posts determined as resources put in an easily accessible section? What do you think?

Agreed with the News/Announcements and Lending Library. They just are not distinct enough or active enough to be separated from Taoist Discussion.

But hey, let's keep this discussion alive for another week. And next weekend, (March 12th and 13th) I'll make some of the major changes we agree upon here.

Sound good?

Sean.

No worries!

Well, I still think that the only thing wrong with blogs is that they are seperate from posts, and that I therefore miss comments and new entries. I can't really see the need (for me, and thats all I can talk about) for a different section.

I think the idea of having a blog/journal/forum/section/whatever that I "own" is good. Its a place for me to dump my thoughts about my training/practices/experiences etc. Its a place that anyone who doesn't like me, or doesn't rate my experiences or finds me boring can just easily ignore.

But I want to be able to easily see other peoples additions/comments to it. Thats all that I would need from the feature.

I can't really see the distinction you make between the blog and a journal in that sense. I don't think the categories and calendar give me anything (though I don't use the blog as extensively as it could be).

I would probably just vote for more like the old structure. Although that would not allow different entries, which can be nice. I don't know. Its a toughie. This one really does need input from all the bloggers.


Yup, I see that would be useful, but I still feel that just linking to existing posts would be better. That way they could read the post that corresponds to the "article" by following the link, but they could also read the discussion that spawned it.
Yes, but they would lose by not being attached to the original question (IMHO)

Does to me. What about the rest of you Bums?

LOOK, DA PROBLEM BE THAT YA BE TRIN TO JUGGLE TWO OBEJCTS, MAINLY, VIZ:

1) DAILY SHIT-TALK, LIKE, WHAT TIME I TOOK A SHIT TODDAY, HOW MANY CLUB BELLS I SHOVE UP MY PUSY, ETC,

2) LIGHTNIN-LIKE ILLUMMINNATTIONS

SO DA BIGEST PROBBLEM IN DA HISTORY O HT FORRUMS HAS BEEN: THERE'S A LOTTA DAILY SHIT, BUT ALSO A FEW GOOD PEARLS.

SO IN DA PAST, ONE WAS RELLYIN ON COK-SUKIN JAMES MC-COK TO STORE ALL DA GOODIES IN DA ARCHIVES FOR POSTERRITY. THEN DA POLESMOKIN ANAL FISTULA SLURPIN DINGLEBERRY ERRASED ALL DA GODIES.

BUT EVEN BEFFORE, IT WAS A PAIN IN DA ASS TO RETTRIEVE DA ARCHIVES. IN FACT, JAMES MC-COK BE SUCH A SHITY PROGRAMER THAT LONG BEFFORE DA CRASH O DA HT BOARD HE HAD BIG TIME FUKED UP ALL DA ARCHIVES N YA COULDNT RETTRIEVE *JAKSHIT*.

SO THERE YA GO, DA ISSUE BE ANNALOGGOUS TO RETTURNIN DA 10,000 THANGS TO DA SUPPREME TAO.

WHAT ONE NEED BE A PROTTOCOL WHERREBY DA WORTHY POSTS BE ENBEDED INTO A COHESIVE WHOLE.

SO BECCAUSE IT WONT BE EVER A FINISHED PRODUCT AS LONG AS PEOPLE KEEP POSTIN VALUABLE SHIT, THEN IT FOLOWS BY ARRISTOTTELIAN LOGIC (THANK YA, THANK YA), THAT DA INSTRUMMENT WHERREBY ONE EMBEDS DA SHIT BE EASSILY CHANGEABLE.

THERREFORE IT FOLOWS (BY DA SAME COOL LOGIC, THANK YA AGGAIN), THAT YA:

1) EITHER HAVE A SLAVE WHO BE ALSO INTELIGENT WHO READ ALL O DA GODDAM POSTTS N EMBED DA COOL SHIT INTO DA PRODUCT

2) OR YA HAVE A FEW MOFOS ON DA LOOK-OUT FOR COOL SHIT TO EMBED INTO DA PRODUCT

3) OR EACH AUTHOR O DA COOL SHIT EMBED *THEM* COOL SHIT INTO DA PRODUCT.

BUT THEN, HOW SHOULD DA *PRODUCT* BE SHAPPED???

WELL, IF IT BE A WEB PAGE, THEN YA *EIHTER* GIVE EVVERYBODY FTP
ACESS TO DA SERVER, SO THEY CAN UPDATE DA PRODYCT, *OR* YA USE A *W*I*K*K*I*.

SO THERE YA GO, WE'VE GOT DA FORRUMS, (PLENTY O THEM, MORE TO CUM),
BUT WE NEED TO KEEP IN MIND THAT, IN ORDER TO BE APRECIATED BY POSTERRITY, N TO REFFRESH OUR MEMMORIES O DA COOL SHIT WE WROTE, WE NEED ALSO A WIKKI-LIKE ENTITTY WHERE DA COOL SHIT CAN BE ENGRAVVED *FOR EVER*.

SO NOW THANKS TO DA CHIKEN SQUABLES, I *HOPE* WELL HAVE A DEDDICATED *WIKKI* SITE, BUT THEN DA POINT BE, *MOFOS* GOTTA UNDERSTAND THAT NO MATER HOW COOL THEM SHIT BE IN THEM POST, IF THEY *DONT* ENGRAVE IT SOMEWHERE, IT'LL BE NO LONGER LASTIN THAN A TAOBUMMES'S FART.


SO YA SEE, IT ALL PROCCEED FOR DA BEST!!!!!!!!!!!!!!IT BE ALL SO COOL!!!!! I WANNA EAT YER SISTER'S PUSY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!



BYE NOW


RONNIETSU

Great post Ron. Thank you for taking even more time to gently wack into my thick skull finallly the value of a Wiki here.

I've doing a great deal of research looking into a good Wiki solution that can make us all happy... hopefully something that can be integrated with the forum member database later on down the road.

I think we really need to think about security issues. Perhaps Wiki editing priveleges should be given by request only. Or it could be linked to post count. Or whatever, I'm just thinking of the top of my head here. In any case, I will also probably feel the need to setup a "cron job" to backup the entire Wiki every 6-12 hours "just in case".

On a lighter note, I just want to say that I hate the word "Wiki" for some stupid reason. Can we think of a better title for the "Wiki" section.

Here are some possibilities I thought up, but obviously feel free to suggest others:

Tao Bums Bible
Tao Bums Compendium
Tao Bums Encyclopedia
Tao Bums Handbook
Tao Bums Lexicon
Tao Bums Magazine
Tao Bums Manual
Tao Bums Opus
Tao Bums Reader

Let's boil it down to like five or six max and then vote.



Sean.

Tao Bums Extra
Tao Bums Plus
Tao Bums Gold
Tao Bums Locker

or (if it is going to hold the best posts etc) Tao Bums Articles

Mind you, I don't dislike Wiki (and reading this again, all mine suck!)

That's my vote.

WAIT I SAID *DEDDICCATTED* WIKKI SITE, THERREBY MEANIN, A SOTE WHOSE MAIN PURPOSE BE DA ESTABLISH-MENT N PRESSERVATION O A WIKKI-LIKE ENTITTY, N BECCAUSE O DA RECCENT *DISCUSION* BETWEEN YA N PIETRO, I THINK NOW ANOTHER SITE WILL BE CREATED BY PIETRO, ME N WHOEVER WANTS TO JOIN, BUT *NOT* IN A SPIRRIT O *CUM-PETTITION* , BUT RATHHER IN A SPIRRIT O *CUM-PLETION*, TO FILL UP WHAT'S REALY MISIN, N ALSO, BECCAUSE O DA SECCURRITY ISIE YA MENTIONNED, LET'S KEEP EM SEPPERRATED, PIETRO N DA *NOTTORIOUS* BEIN *NOTTORIOUSLY* UNSAFE ANYWAY TO DEAL WITH, SO NO BIGGIE.

THIS HAVIN SAID, I THINK IT' BE EXTRA SUPPER MEGA COOL IF, GIVEN DA PURPORTED IMPORTANCE O DA WIKKI -LIKE REPPOSITTORY O TAO BUM KNOWLEDGE, N GIVEN THAT WE CLAIM *NO COPYRIGHT* TO WHAT WE WRITE, (SINCE WE JUST *REPPEAT* DA TRUTH, WHICH WE *DID NOT* INVENT BY OURSELVES), THEN WHO-EVER SO WANT CAN *MIROR* DA WIKKI-LIKE THANG N BACK-UP N COPY N DIS-TRIBBUTE, PROVIDED ONE RULE BE RESPECTED, VIZ, DA DA ORRIGINAL CHANGES MUST BE MADE SARTIN ON DA ORRIGINAL WIKKI WHICH WELL CREATE AS A SEPPERATE SITE. THIS RULE BE NOT GIVEN IN A SPIRRIT O AROGANCE OR ANAL-PLATO GRABBIN LIKE SCHLONGER-SWALOWIN LUST, BUT JUST BECCAUSE YA NEED A *PROTTOCOL* TO AVVOID *CHAOS*, IT'S A FORM O *CHANGE CONTROL* SO THAT YA DONT GO CRAZY TRYIN TO FIGGURE OUT WHO CHANGED WHAT N WHEN N HOW.

SO I SAY TO YA: DONT WORY ABOUT DA WIKKI NOW, YA BE BUSY ENUFF WITH THIS GREAT WORK O YOURS IN HERE, WELL TAKE CARE O DA WIKKI -LIKE THANG, BUT AT SAME TIME, I HOPE YA'LL HELP IN MIRORIN THANGS SO THAT OUR *COMMON* KNOWLEGDE DONT GET ERRASED ONE MORE TIME. PERRHAPS YA CAN THINK O A WAY TO MIROR THANG AUTO-MAGICALY SO THAT THIS SITE CAN HAVE A READ-ONLY VERSION O DA WIKKI.

I ALSO HOPE YA N PIETRO CAN HAVE SOME FURTHERR HEARTHY DISCUSION N RETTURN TO BE IN GOOD TERMS ALLRIGHTIE.

TALK TO YA LATTER, BYE NOW,

RONNIETSU

But Ronnie, I think we are looking for a way to start condensing and crystallizing the knowledge here at TaoBums. I'd like to get something workable in place soon and I'm coming around to the idea that perhaps a Wiki is a better approach than the "Contributed Articles" section. My intention isn't to create a huge, dedicated Tao-Wiki-Portal or anything so the TaoBums Wiki won't be stepping on your toes ... it just seems like a decent solution for sifting gems out of the posts here and building a TaoBums Handbook basically (that was my favorite as well, Trunk).

But when Pietro and you get your Wiki up, let's definitely talk about mirroring and syndication and link backs and all that fun stuff then.


Sean.

Hey, guys

I know its been awhile since I've sat my derriere down and typed something but it just seems lately I've only time to read a quick few and take off again.

Some opinions here: (Everyone has them, amoung many things)

First of all, I really love the idea of "Individual Practice Discussion" Somehow that has a really good ring to it in my little mind and I just can't help but to really love it. I don't have a whole lot of understanding in the difference between Blogs and the former Training logs, because of the simple fact that I've have'nt taken the time to use them.

The Contributed Articles seems to be one of my favorites. If they are taken out, I'm afraid I may get a teeny bit aggrivated because I've been working on a few to put in (basically a vhegkits amount while I am at work on tons of notes and going through all the other material that I've piled up over the past couple years to put together something solid and worthwhile) and I STRONGLY feel that this part of the forum has a significant amount of importance. (Please remember that this is the simple opinion of one massively insignificant being amoung the vast universe)

Lending Library seemed like a good idea and to let newer people know what kind of material is easily and readily available and also a great way for people to connect and share a very worthwhile practice, obviously they would not own material if it were not the case. On the other hand, if it is not used often I can see how it can be just "taking up room" or "keeping the collective focus" from being clouded/polluted/etc. One point to bring up here is that if this section is gone, then people will have to ASK for the material and some may not even know what to ask for. Also the effort for asking/lending/sharing may not be as feasible. (I'm not sure if FEASIBLE is the word I wanted to use, but at the current moment the mind is still in overdrive from some CRAZY demand/deadlines from my job. It's just a little overworked these days and some practices are in order for my night tonight to help straighten out my inner energies.)

As far as the new format goes, I have'nt experienced confusion or any kind of complexity indictation. I agree with a few others here...as long as I can see what is new and I do not miss anything, everythings is fine with me-I go through and read EVERYTHING when I can. I just love taoism in all its forms and there are SOOOOO many things to learn, experience, and practice that the idea of generalizing seems just a little vague for me. There has to be complexity sometimes. It keeps our minds fresh. As long a we look, listen and express we can all learn from each other at every moment that our lives have to offer.

Hope this is helpful in any way possible!!!

Blessed adieu,
-Jessica

Jessica, nice to see you back.

I'm happy to hear that the "Individual Practice Discussion" forum resonates with you so well. I'm also glad the forum-based journals are back. To fill you in, the difference between the "Individual Practice Discussion" forum and the "Blog" feature is that the "IPD" is a forum-style journal, just like this topic, which makes it more of an open free-for-all discussion that can be easily navigated and read. The Blog-feature, on the other hand, is a bit isolated from the forums and has each blog-owner posting separate entries with user comments hidden by default. So member interaction with a person's blog gets somewhat buried and open discussion feels a bit stifled by this.

Now you have a choice on which format you want to use. The way I intend to use them is to post insights about my practice in my "IPD" topic, whereas I will probably use my Blog for repetitive aspects of my training, like my food/exercise journal; in other words as more of a personal way of tracking things for myself.

I'm looking forward to seeing the writings you have to contribute since I already enjoy reading your posts here a lot. Don't worry about Contributed Articles. It won't be removed without something in it's place to host articles. Right now I am loooking into how a wiki might work for creating a sort of "TaoBums Handbook" that distills information generated from discussion here on the forums. It would also allow anyone to submit their own articles. Not sure if this is the direction we'll go yet though, so Contributed Articles will stay for now.

Excellent points about the Lending Library. I'd actually already taken it out (and moved the posts to Taoist Discussion) as the consensus seemed to be that it was so inactive it should just get trashed. But something definitely should be put in it's place for the reasons you mentioned. Perhaps the Wiki can also be used to store a list of materials available for lending and which are in circulation. I'll look into this more.

I'm glad you like the new format and I couldn't agree more with your closing points regarding complexity.

Thanks for your helpful insights.


Sean.

Does that mean that comments can be set to be shown by default? Am I missing a very easy setting change which would make my Blog easier for me to follow?

Oh, what I meant was that they are not visible unless you click to view them. Sorry. There should really be an "expand all comments" option.

Yeah, that would be cool. Any chance? Mind you with the old Blogs back again its less of an issue.

I like the contributed articles section too. I totally agree with Jessica on the lending library section. I'm starting to catch on to some of the new features, and I like it.

I've been looking into it with no luck yet.

No worries. Don't stay up til 5am to fix this one!

LOL!