following cam's metamorphosis (or at least the parts he's choosing to share with us, for which i am grateful) has led me to want to make this topic.

i don't want this to come across as a criticism of cameron, but i'm wondering what the general tao bum wisdom is regarding this matter. to me it seems like a gross misunderstanding of the purpose of spiritual cultivation to think that one can engage in high-level, wholly transformative practices, and still go on as one had before in everyday life.

for me, an integral part of my pathworking has been to divest of unnecessary attachments to the matrix of cultural hypnosis so that when the time comes i will be able to ride the wave until the day i drown.

i teach qigong and meditation. i do healing work. i used to have a little coffee shop job on the side to help make ends meet; now i don't even do that. my students and patients fully support me.

i walked away from a full scholarship at a top-level college and some amazing research and scholarship opportunities because i felt that those aspirations were incompatible with what i feel is my true life's calling. it was painful at times because the unknown is scary, there's no guarantee that i will succeed in attaining the highest levels, and i felt pressure from friends who thought i was "throwing it all away."

"What a waste."

now i believe it was the best decision i ever made.


i don't think what i chose to do is the right thing for everyone. but then i don't think that high-level cultivation is the right thing for everyone, either.


i've experienced my share of physiological ups and downs as a result of my practice (from feeling invincible to dizziness and vomiting, and a whole spectrum in between), but i have consciously fashioned my life to be adaptable to the ebb and flow as i press forward and seek balance.

for me, it's simply the only game in town worth playing.


SO...


if one has no intentions of giving up ones ties to the conventional/material, how practical is it for them to pursue realization of the Tao? profound transformation can not and should not be forced into a box, but rather it is we who should be breaking out of our boxes to accommodate profound reality.

OR:

is there some middle ground that can actually take one all the way? can high-level transmissions be congruent with someone who walks fairly evenly in both worlds?

...and again, i want to emphasize that i don't mean for this post to be a critique of cameron. he was the only tao bum to give us all a somewhat in-depth perspective of max and his abilities. it's because of cameron's posts that i decided to go ahead and commit to the SF workshop.

i just want to know what others think. i'm very open to changing my mind about what i think.

Interesting - I was wondering the same thing. I think the other bums who attended the workshop did not have quite the same reaction to the experience as Cameron (Guys - please correct me if I am wrong). It is my understanding that Cam is unusually sensitive to these types of changes - plus he had been doing a lot of work on personal stuff prior to attending the seminar.

Anyway, I am just beginning my path, and I wondered the same thing. At this point, I am not doing any kind of energy work - just a lot of reading. Still it does make one think "Am I really ready to follow this path if it leads to the possible alienation of my friends/family, loss of my job, etc." I can't say that's a direction I'm willing to go in at this time. But does that mean I can't get anything out of studying philosophical taoism? Lots of food for thought.

V.

VeeCee we should make out.

Umm...and Hundun...I don't have a clue is my official response to all questions until atleast 5 taobums have awakening through Kunlun Seminar/Practice.

Please don't get too into the judgement of what is right or wrong and what is the right way or the wrong way..all that stuff is useless..as is any illusion of preparation work.

My main task now is relaxing, enjoying life, being relaxed in my body and let's hope some of my friends here have an experience. I consider many of your guys much,much smarter than me anyway.

Cam, I'm old enough to be your mom - but thanks.

One has to change habits, work and mindset in order to sustain a high level life of cultivation. Being in the world doesn't mean one has to do as world society presents.

For one, before I left for China several years ago, I was presented with a million dollars and 60 acres of land upstate NY to open a temple of cultivation, a clinic of Chinese Medicine, Gongfu school...the works. I asked where the money came from and will come from in the future, and the man told me from big corporations. That's when I questioned further as to which ones. Lo and Behold, I guessed a few and was right on the money; Mcdonalds, KFC, Taco Bell, Coca Cola...just to name a few.
I gladly turned down the million dollars. The man was shocked, and obviously asked why. I looked him dead in the eye and said that it is unwise to help people live wholesome lives, and then offer them chemically injected and made foods to "nourish" their bodies with.
He said i was crazy, and I told him the only crazies in the world are those who on one hand claim their service benefits, and on the other hand with the same service, hurt the people who are sick. Its a shame Mcdonalds, Coca Cola, KFC and the like all claim to be good for people through their misleading ads, and do nothing that benefits the society...people wise.

I refused the mone gladly because endorsing evil to make a profit and support one's reputation is by no means a benevolent thing to do for any living being.

One cannot get to higher places ..."permanently" unless they change living habits. Meat eating is one of them, smoking is another, drinking is yet another. TV, Movies, music, just to name a few....

The list can go on, but I think we all get the point.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin

Hi Cam,

Work hard at your practices! Sounds like it will develop good abilities. Yet remember one thing,
abilities and wisdom/awakening do not go hand in hand. That means one may have abilities, but they can be dumb as hell. Awakening comes from cultivation of that which makes you awakened. You may develop abilities; pushing people with energy (which is basic), heightened intuition, telepathy, etc...but that is only outcomes of cultivation, not of awakening.

I know what you are doing is good. Just keep in mind that there are tools out there already that assist in awakening, and it only requires cultivation of wise discrimination which entails patience, compassion and wisdom. Now meditation is a key to it all. Standing, moving, walking, lying cultivation will assist in concentrating the mind and harnessing substance. To awaken, one will need dialogue with a teacher who is awakened, one will need to discern certain things about their own life and unravel the twists and knots they have created for themselves.

Awakening isn't the end either. Develop powers, and cultivate methods to reveal your inherent wisdom. Those two together must BE HAND IN HAND, or there is only danger for you and the people around you.
I am serious and I am not puttin gdown what you have ben cultivating from Max Shifu. If anyone tells anyone that cultivating and attaining abilities is any awakening, they are misguided. That doesn't mean their manners of cultivation for abilities are wrong, its just incomplete, and harmful. In my book, it is wrong.

Keep well on the path of Virtue and Morality. Cultivate what you do, and be good to others, speak less of your accoplishments, and utilize the exitement you feel and put it towards your cultivation. Put it all in the dantian, and don't waste it on anyone. That means no demonstrations, no transference of energy (Fa Gong), no trying to levitate and or push people unless you are in closed doors and cultivating with the same people.

Heed these words. The world is filled with demons in human form teaching people things that are incomplete, things which harm themsselves and others. Be careful what you eat.

All our food is filled with poisons! Chemicals, diseases, etc. Eat lots of greens, less cold things, less sweet things. No coffee, smoking, drinking (a beer here and there is alright but not constant and no hard liquor!)

Sex; moderate and no orgasms unless you are making babies. Anyone can argue with me on it, and I will simply say I don't care. No matter what, if you want your cultivation to soar and develop properly, then no orgasms from any chakra, no wasting our fluids and no orgasm without ejaculation. Dual cultivation is fine, the woman can orgasm if she wants, but eh.

That's all I have to say as to some guidance for your cultivation and anyone elses. Anyone have questions as to why and what I have written, start a new thread.

Peace and Blessings !
Lin

ai wei,

i wish you were here in the states. i'd love to come study with you.


some day, maybe.

Get some periodic alone time. Every day, Every Week, Every Month, Every Year.

Don't let to much time pass before you reset your brain. Living in cities sets you in motion at a certain pace. This pace (and information overload) is important to get away from periodically. Like I said, it can be small, like once a day morning or night, forget about time, return to origin. Or a long hike once every year or something to clear the air.

You have to define your space clearly and defend your boundaries when people cross them.

Spectrum

Yea, Cameron's reaction was definitely not typical. Although others had some pretty intense reactions at the workshop too - I don't know what their follow-up has been like. However, I have a hunch that Cameron's may be one of the most extreme data points out there from the last seminar.

Certainly, about half the class experienced relatively little. Thing is, we are all starting at different points, so "mileage will vary."

Anyhow, this is a great question. If one wants to achieve the really high results, might one have to sacrifice the lay lifestyle for more of a quasi-monastic lifestyle? Simply put, if you're tied down to a 40-hr/week gig...how would you have time everyday to practice a lot and have enough time off every year to see masters and go to retreats, etc? Maybe that is simply unrealistic?

Personally, I would like to become financially-independent somehow so get off the grid and have much more freedom of time & money. Practically speaking, my progress is severely hampered by my daily job commitments...

i agree completely that what you said is sound advice for EVERYONE.

but do you believe that's all it takes for a high-level cultivator? i mean, you can't exactly schedule when your next cleansing cycle is going to take place, nor can you decide beforehand its duration.

i guess one could progress very slowly, very gradually, and maybe later down the line reach a crossroads where they either give up the world or accept mediocrity. but let us assume that this crossroads is here now.


is it/can it be practical for someone to be ensconced in the matrix of materialism and cultural hypnosis, yet strive for radical awakening?

awakening doesn't exist, it's been said before.

this statement, at least to me, seems to contradict your signature quote on the bottom of your posts.



there is no you or me in this state

there is only a flame without smoke



maybe you can explain what it is about this quote that speaks to you.


i don't know what j. krishnamurti calls it, but i think he's talking about that word which doesn't exist.

he says this state but it doesn't mean we aren't already in it. it is that which burns forever.

you're splitting hairs, in my opinion.

of course the state is eternally present. no one argues that. i certainly don't. but at this very moment i understand that i'm not conscious of it.

i think it's implied in the term "awakening" that the truth you awaken to was already there.


but if you don't like the word, fine. we can call it something else.


i don't know. it just seems to me like you're arguing semantics. or you're just arguing for the sake of arguing. if you're making a serious point, i'm still waiting for you to explain it.

the original statement i made wasn't really an argument and really in the end wasn't meant to be quoted - it's just what i think and believe.

-----------

Hmm...I am certainly carnivorous so I don't think I would qualify as awakened or enlightened or a high-level pathworker, but I will say over the past nine years I have been on my diet I have gone through some, err, unusual experiences.

I think it is a mistake to go live in a cave or drop out of the world to let these experiences take over, except in two situations--first, if one is under the direct tutelage of a trusted teacher, or if a person is over sixty and has grown wise in the ways of his or her chosen path. I think interacting with the world and the daily grind are the best instructors one can have while pursuing these sorts of experiences. They keep a person grounded and suffering. With grounding comes balance and with suffering comes depth, the capacity to take more in.

That's not to say that a person going through these sorts of experiences can just be social all the time. Some solitude is necessary. But throughout history, most monastic communities, even the most cloistered, had monks doing mundane daily labor, hard work.

And it certainly can be disruptive to friendships and family connections! All of my old friends have fallen away, thinking me nuts. My marriage ended. So those sorts of things might change.

diverting from the original cue....

wow. that's it. i've been saying that line for years, but you just made the truth of "living" it click for me in a new way.

thank you, my lucid one.


oh, and to clarify.

drown = die

bad poetry. that's all.


and [people] think these are metaphors.
i speak what i see.
all words and worlds
are metaphors of me.

--saul williams

i think you make some great points here, witch.

although i partially disagree about it being a mistake to live in a cave; back in 2004 i did exactly that for 4 1/2 months. obviously i came back, but i'm fairly certain that i will do it again at some point, and likely for a longer period of time.

but i think you're probably talking about abandoning the world forever being a bad idea, in which case i agree with you (obviously. i came back.).


"with grounding comes balance and with suffering comes depth, the capacity to take more in."


i like how you put this. there's a lot of legitimacy to this.

daily menial labor is something i'm only now learning to embrace.

i may write more in this later.

hehehe

Living in a cave, leaving the home life...its never leaving the world at all or even being cut off.
One's mind cannot be cut off from the world. It is the views of the world that we hold which result in an experience of separation.
A left home person, in a cave, or temple, still has their mind and all their habits and thoughts, desires, demons within and without. Those things are in the world, and made from people. So there is much to work with when left home...one is really never cut from the usual living of society. Leaving home makes it a bit easier to cultivate...without the daily distractions of a family person.

The cultivation to transform the mind through putting down is not at all easy. The cultivating itself is the pathway which leads to wisdom at each step of the way. Leaving the home life allows one to concentrate fully on their cultivation, attain pure and complete wisdom withotu other distractions but their own mind, and either come back to lay life to reach people in different manners, or stay a monk and walk into society with 84,000expedients to work from for living beings.... haha

The cultivating is the practice of developing wisdom. Staying in the societal environment allows one to have all different stimuli for the mind, and makes fro good cultivation, but it would be a bit difficult if the person is unsure of many things, falls to deeply into confusion, greed, anger, ignorance, desire, etc. Either a teacher is needed, and or a long time to realize certain results.

YET, not everyone who leaves the home life attains complete and pure enlightenment in one lifetime. They are still human and have their mind to work through, which is basically the world. They can make mistakes and often do

Leaving the home life, or staying a lay cultivator is basically similar in a great percentage. One of the many differences is the environment for cultivation. There are many more, but this one is good for now.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin

keep in mind:

you're responding to someone who DID leave home to live in a cave for a while! you're sort of preaching to the choir.

i understand (better than most) that no matter where i go, there will be my mind to deal with. but truth be told, i'm not advanced enough to cultivate at the highest levels while remaining in the world. i don't have a teacher.

Actually, I think I was responding to another poster.. haha but left your quotes up. I did have what you wrote in mind though, but the quoting was an oversight Sorry


Peace,
Lin