i just got back home from the SF workshop.


it's about 11:50am, so the workshop is actually still going on. *hint*



i need to rest up for a little bit, do some writing, and catch up with my students.


then i will give my honest take of Max's skill and the methods and all that good stuff.

okay,

i may as well get this over with...


i'm not writing this to make friends, so you're welcome to take issue with this if you like.


1.) he's NOT a lama

2.) he's NOT a taoist master

3.) he's not really a master at all!

4.) if he IS a master of something (anything), then i can only conclude that i surpassed the level of master a long time ago, and i really need to raise my prices!



i was actually shocked at how rank and superficial his knowledge base was. he will attract a number of new age people, as he IS one. HUGE leaps to our ancestries being from other planets and shit. reptilian races and shit. and, to be honest, i'm just crazy enough to go there if you can lay an effective groundwork. he offered none. only that we were a tight-knit group now that the "undesirables" had been weeded out the night before (someone leveled a challenge at him, and he blew much of his own credibility trying to respond/back-peddle), so he can now clue us in to his "crazy wisdom."

yeah, he really went there.


the short video clip on the front page of his website is about the extent of his depth.

for me to break down everything that was wrong with him and the seminar would take me hours, and i'm just not that committed. so i'm going to jump around a little bit:


he prefaces almost every questionable or unsupported statement with "my teachers taught me..." "my teachers said..." "my teachers would do..." and on and on and on. he leaned WAY too heavily on these inaccessible teachers for credibility. and keep in mind, he's all about following the teacher within.

lots of talk of clans and battles that seemed to go nowhere. other than maybe to entice you with being linked to this magnificent "lineage" so that his stories can now become your stories.


ridiculous contradictions, so many that i can't remember most of them. but it's okay. they're intentional. he's the coyote. the trickster.

you can eat whatever you want because energy is energy and the differences are illusion and kunlun activates the alchemical process so that he can even drink mercury without being affected.

BUT,

if you do kunlun you should probably eat meat on a regular basis because it will help to ground you.


i asked him at the free lecture if he could explain to me the distinction between magnetism and qi, as i had learned that the magnetism aspect is more yin and the electrical aspect is more yang. these are his exact words:

"well, in mao shan we're taught that when the yin and yang- electrical in the body- we call it... say you look at yoga. you have the sun & moon channels- what happens is, you have the yin & yang, you're breathing in and out. when those collapse from practicing, the outer breath disappears, the inner breath becomes apparent. the sushumna, the central channel becomes activated. in mao shan they say "the secret of the golden flower." and to practice, what you do is like this (makes a hand mudra). and the mao shan daoists they'll have a certain sound and visualization for each one. and they hold this posture- this is the first thing that they do. when you practice the secret of the golden flower this is what the mao shan [daoists] are practicing.

now, with this type of practice you might save 3-5 years if you did just the mao shan..."

this was his response to my question. WORD FOR WORD.

he said more, but it didn't get any better, and i don't feel like transcribing the rest of it.

i hope you get the idea.


after the lecture i introduced myself the chris (mantra) and told him that i wasn't sure my question was answered. he at least gave me a coherent response, but he didn't really know, so, of course, he asked his teacher to explain it. and again, max is all over the place EXCEPT where my question is leading. so chris sort of cut him off (respectfully) and reiterated what the question was. he didn't really have an answer. what it came down to was what he said above: that he sees the electrical energy as qi and the magnetic energy as... well... something else.


yeah. taoist master my ass.


are the techniques effective? yes. they can be. but moreso than any other system? no.

and cameron (though i'm sure he might be pissed at me for making this post) was correct about max's approach to teaching the red phoenix being irresponsible. it's a down-right dangerous practice unless you're NOT developed enough to really move the energy. and even then, it's a dubious practice.


so what happened with cameron? well, here's my opinion:

cameron was torn between which master he was going to see prior to attending the LA workshop. my guess is that had cameron saw the other guy and had the other guy given a direct transmission, cam probably would have experienced the same (or at least a very similar) awakening. cameron wasn't very far from opening those floodgates on his own. and i got the impression that max had never dealt with anyone who had openned up so radically before.


i can't help but feel like maybe chris "created" max. chris definitely the intelligent, man behind the scene (or behind the curtain) guy.

ALSO:

max claims that his "wisdom eye" is so developed that he's unable to drive because he sees too much. yet he was completely unaware of the energy i was flowing. a couple of people at the seminar and, later, one of his own assistants commented on it and wondered about my level. yet in our private session everything he shared with me was as if i were a novice. his transmission was hardly noticeable, though it doesn't take much to awake a soul that's ripe. he certainly knows a few tricks, but in my opinion he's no master.

they're running a business. a workshop business. and the quality and organization could use some serious work.


i have a LOT MORE to say, but i'm kinda tired of writing right now.

i welcome questions.


and just for the record:

i'm not trying to just tear this guy down. i payed $450 for the workshop and the private session. even after the horrible screw-ups in the free lecture on friday, i chose and even encouraged others who were put off to give it a shot anyway. it's just money. and maybe he doesn't have the knowledge, but if he has the abilities, it doesn't matter much.

i'm glad i went. i honestly don't care about the money that much. he has great charisma. unfortunately there's not much behind it.


the reason the movie trailer emphasizes all the wrong things is because there isn't much of real substance to lean on.

my students are more skilled than his, and i'm not even close to being a master of anything.


oh, and he's not enlightened. not even close. he's like an eclectic peyote tripper from the seventies, one of those self-proclaimed gurus who damaged a lot of people with their methods. sure, you might experience something, but NONE of if proves any of the stuff that comes out o his mouth.


1 hour = 100 years? are you stoned?


anyway, that's my honest opinion.

Thanks for your review of Max's seminar.



This has been my "suspicion" upon reading of Camerons experience, so... matrix hacker? Perhaps. Master? Masters take time and insight into a students life. No offense here, I'm simply saying before you plug someone in to the outlet you gotta check the cord for cracks or shorts. That's common Practice.



Right on. I follow this as well and have been both dissapointed and rewarded. Face to face is the only way to go.

I have one question that has gone unanswered.

Being a practitioner of Taoist Arts, will Max touch hands?

Spectrum

Oh Goodness. How funny.

Thankyou Hundun.


I love the transcript bit.


Hundun- did you do the kunlun practise? How did you find it?

Not pissed at all bro!

This is a "Forum".

Let's think of the Taobums Taoist Discussion like the Place in Ancient Rome where people could talk freely and without fear or apprehension. Totally cool with me man! i am the first to admit I dont' know shit just sharing my experiences!

However..please refrain from critisizm of Max or Kunlun on my persnal cultivation journal.

Thanks,

Cam

Thanks.
Did he demonstrate his empty force - someone attacking him and being reoelled.

fair enough. i can respect that.

and thanks.

I just got back from the SF seminar. LOVED IT! I'm already thinking about going to an L.A. seminar.
Hundun, you left too early, brother. We learned how to travel out of the body and meet other teachers and masters, how to run really fast, and how to test if we are grounded enough.

Yesterday I felt like the earth was shakin', and today I feel light as a feather.

It's a very laid back atmosphere and everyone was really nice. Max is real easy going and open to answering everyone's questions. It was great to meet Chris, he's got some strong energy! The mighty Kan is way cool. Poor guy got thrown against the wall at least a few times. And Lilli, who I exchanged emails with quite a few times trying to get the seminar organized, was very nice and friendly. And Richard, who had a smile on his face the entire time, is a great guy. Not to mention our Tao bum brother, Todd.

We learned a great set of standing postures to improve the health of each of the organ systems. The first day we held all the postures for five minutes. I worked up a sweat like I just ran 10 miles! Great workout.

The Kunlun practice, of course. Many had some kind of opening today. Lots of laughter, yelping, a few screams, some yelling. One woman spoke in tongues a little bit.

And Red Phoenix. A more passive practice where you feel energy moving between two points in your head.

Everything was geared towards awakening on a spiritual level. Max has a lot of energy, couldn't be friendlier, and seems to really enjoy sharing his knowledge and experience with others. I could listen to him speak for days on end.

Here's a helpful hint; during break times, don't wander away for too long. Some of the most interesting things Max said were during the breaks when he walks around talking to people, answering questions.

As for Max's abilities, I believe they are real. You'll see him demonstrate on Kan, and Mari if she's there. It's as if a bolt of lightening is passing thru their bodies.

One more thing. If you want a one on one session with Max, sign up as soon as possible. I, unfortunately, waited till saturday to make an appointment and his schedule was already full. Kan and Richard also do healing work on a donation basis. And Diana does energy field clearing on a sliding scale basis.

Gordon

Yes, he will and did (in a friendly manner).

And thanks for the ballsy feedback, Hundun. I'm sure different people will have different opinons, especially depending upon their own experience level. Perhaps I'm an easily-impressed noob. And perhaps a more accomplished cultivator as Hundun might not be so impressed. If that's true, it might still be worth it for me, but less so for Hundun.

So, I'll still be interested to hear the other feedback on this workshop. And personally, I would also be interested in hearing about the Reptilian/alien ancestries myself.

And was he intellectually or physically challenged at the lecture? Just curious..

BTW, I must admit I am a little intrigued at Hundun's own level now?

WOW, Hundun can u tell me what type of style or thought you teach?

WYG

yes. he touches hands.

i wasn't aware of there being a taboo about touching hands.

Can you say more on this?

I believe he didn't recommend following his diet, as most people are not ready. But I have to agree that there is no excuse for eatting junk food.

I would say you are correct it may be dangerous for most of the people attending. It would be better if it was taught after Kunlun Level 3.

Nahhh, Max (chicken) was long there before Chris (the egg).

I disagree about Max's diet..I think I will not go full blown Max yet but will build up to it.

However..I am a little uncomfortable that Red Phoenix is still being taught at Level 1. I mean..I trust Max..but my feeling about it is teaching RP at Level 1 is like walking a razors edge.

If Chris could please say something about this. I myself have stopped doing RP and committed to doing just Level 1 for a year.

C

Hundun. It would help get a perspective on this if you could share with us your response to doing kunlun prior to the w/e, and also what practise you usually do, and for how long you have been doing this stuff.


It's helpful to hear different voices, and it's more helpful, if we know who is talking.

wow hundun! you really have balls! lol!

too early to say. the 'raising the heels' thing is a good technique, so i will be experimenting with it for the next few months using different postures.

how do you feel about kriya yoga hundun?

Todd,

I see you on the thread..what was your experience?

Don't make me have to call you..seriously..i am paronoid to use my cell phone now and would probably throw it out if our whole modern society didnt' demand using the damn things!

ok, thanks. I'm really liking the kunlun practise. The heels up thing is a new one on me.


I'm really glad you made this post and gave us something objective, tangible, and assessed from the w/e. Very helpful.

By touching hands I mean exchange of circular force like friendly push hands. Simple enough. I don't mean rolling around on the ground like dogs.

I don't know what the heels up thing means, but in chi gung practice when your standing wuji, if you put the weight on the front of your foot your legs will vibrate fast, but it's feedback. Your removing your ground. Guys thud/ground their heels when they get smacked in the balls. In contrast I remember a chi gung from somewhere that you are forward all the way on your metatarsal heads, with the feet vertical and the hands are extended and held in tiger claws... just breath... now... breath... now



Sounds like Chi Gung Church. Any Toning?

Spectrum

To me the lifting of the heels is about unearthing and allowing your energy to run around the body, the legs vibrating is the nerves getting energy and rebalancing (maybe). I had some interesting heat and movement but i also held other hand postures which brought alot more then what is taught in the hand posture in level 1.

Dropping the feet/heels is allowing the Kidney 1 point to reconnect to the earth, is it a good thing to unearth when doing med and chi kung?

I am not as energetically developed as Hundun apparently is. I certainly cannot see energy being streamed, but I will say that I was very much turned off by the seminar.

This is my personal experience. I generally haven't been inclined to share my experience recently, since I am sure that I am not solidly in recognition of truth. But I can say that just about everything in me says that Max and MantraProductions are not for me. This could change, as anything can change, but I wouldn't bet anything on it, even at very high odds.

I feel unbalanced. I felt unbalanced from the time I began considering the seminar, and it has only gotten worse until now. Being unbalanced is not necessarily bad, and I do not think it was the wrong decision for me to attend. I had something to learn, and perhaps Kunlun has something to offer me as a practice, but if there is a direction to truth, further involvement with these seminars is the opposite direction for me.

Hundun: I'm sorry that I missed you at the seminar. One of the reasons I went was to talk to you. I wasn't expecting you to be with others, and I didn't really clue in to which person you might be until just before you left, when you were standing next to me holding the ball. I went outside and came back in looking to talk to you, and you were gone. I respect your not wanting to talk to me though, if that was the case.

Bindo: good luck to you brother.

I like practicing Kunlun and the other things I have learned from Max. I definitely feel a change in my energy since I started practicing. I have attended two seminars and will be attending my third in San Diego in a week. For me it really feels like the right path to follow and I enjoy learning from Max. I guess I have an affinity in what he is teaching. I hope that the others who did not have a good experience will find the teaching or practice that is best for them. Craig

Awesome feedback everyone, thank you!!

I'm glad we got some good solid negative votes expressed in very concrete terms... the Taobum coverage of Max now feels much more complete and balanced, so thank you Todd and Hundun for speaking up in such a pro-Max atmosphere... please share more if you are so inspired.

Amusingly, we are in the exact same place we were several weeks ago before we had sent our ambassadors... a real mixed reaction.

Having said that, the whole discussion has really drawn me in from one of pure indifference to a real fascination and admiration for Max. I'm keeping the candle lit that he'll keep RP on the docket for Phoenix!

Reptilian races? Like David Icke "Children of the Matrix" reptile races?

hmm... i've pretty much put it all out there in various threads, but i can try to give a sort of cliff's notes version.




my aim is the practice of life: for every breath to be an act of cultivation. i do have practices that i enjoy and i experiment all the time with different movements and postures, but i don't really believe any of them are very necessary. i like the way garripoli put it when he said qigong becomes a lexicon, a common language by which we communicate a universal truth. i like forms for their beauty more than anything else. most of the complete sets i know do a good job of opening up the meridians and gently loosening up the body.

a few of my favorites:

1.)wuji hundun. i think this is one of the most important foundational sets because a.) it opens the entire body, and b.) the freeform sensibility that's encouraged. only the first and last of the 18 movements are pretty static; the rest is supposed to be mixed up and played with a little differently each time. it encourages individual innovation and letting go of attachment to forms and systems. it thoroughly embraces the chaos in nature and subtly develops comfort with and acceptance of the unknown and the spontaneous.

unconditional acceptance can be cultivated through this approach. but it's the philosophy of it, moreso than the movements themselves, that first hooked me.


2.) wei tou qigong. not an easy system to find here in the states. not that easy to find in china, either. this is an entire system with 5 different sets (similar in design to 5-animal frolics, but VERY DIFFERENT MOVEMENTS). it's medical, martial, and spiritual, all in one. very good system for a disciplined, routine practice.


3.) shamanic tiger qigong. just beautiful! and powerful! very energizing in the fingertips. this form led to me employing the tiger palm in my healing work.

4.) wudan long men (dragon gate) qigong & nei gong. repetitive, so i tend to mix it up with wuji hundun for a more enjoyable practice.

5.)mt. emei shaking practice. lots of this. and tree stance. and cloud hands.


these are probably my top 5. i know dozens, and i teach most of them. i'm not authorized by anyone to teach, and i don't pretend to be. it's simply not necessary. i can pass a very effective transmission of energy to facilitate rapid development and healing. my transmission is stronger and more effective than a number of so-called masters out there, and this frustrates me because i don't think i'm all that far along in my development.

i'm really big on building a strong foundation with lots of stance, posture, and breath training. i'm also really big on keeping the tongue up! (something i think might have made a big difference in harmonizing the opening that cameron experienced.)


i study and play with tons of forms, but just so i can expand my movement vocabulary and eventually integrate what i learn into spontaneous practice. for me, that's the highest level of physical practice. plus it's fun to be able to learn from your own natural flow.


i first connected with yin qi in a conscious way when i was probably 9 years old. i didn't have a name for it or a way to intellectually relate to it, but it ignited my spiritual longing to a magnitude that couldn't just brush aside. at the age of 12 started spending many nights outside in fields and wooded areas (one of the few ways that i was fortunate to have a mother that was a shitty parent).

i didn't consciously recognize yang qi until a decade later, and that experience was equally organic. no teacher. no system. but i still didn't have a framework through which to understand or cultivate.

my first real teacher came a little more than 10 years ago, when i was about 20. he was a ninjitsu instructor and a reiki master. his control of the subtle nuances of the energy was very impressive. he had raw, natural talent, and every other reiki master i've met has been somewhat of a joke in comparison. but he didn't have the knowledge and was very unbalance. he was a power monger who manipulated and slept with his female students. i played his game and kissed his ass until i received everything he had to offer. he was the first validation that i ever got that what i was connecting with was real. so i ran with it until he couldn't teach me anything else and i left. very new-agey; even his ninjistu students, though they respected his skill, would laugh about how 'out there' and ridiculous he was. the nordic shaman-ninja-prince. lol! he wasn't a very talented healer, but his internal power was undeniable.

while i was "training" (i don't know that i would call it that) with him i met a qigong master who had no respect for reiki. this guy passed me a transmission that rendered me bed-ridden for nearly a week. it even temporarily shut down some of my opening that i had attained, like being able to send a stream of energy directly from my 3rd eye. it wasn't until much later that i discovered that it was a (partial) kundalini awakening and the physical and energetic adjustments went on in my body for the next two years. it would take too long to explain all of this, so i'm just gonna move on.


many other stories. brief time periods with masters of varying degrees of skill. other transmissions from other teachers, but after that transmission from the first qigong master i met, i didn't really need a physical teacher after that. i just needed technique and intuitive development in my practice.

i may post a few more articles about my approach. but the bottom line is it's very effective. people come to me and stick around because the results are real and because i don't make myself out to be more than what i am.

i've done lots of book work. read hundreds. i'm naturally gifted with the abstract and theoretical. i was naturally connected to the energy as a child before i knew what it was. i continue to study and seek more and more ways to improve my healing abilities (which sometimes gets in the way of my personal development). i've been effective at treating everything from depression to brain tumors. i'm even experimenting with a dog for the first time that has a heart tumor, and the results have been impressive. the owner of the dog subsequently became a patient AND a student.

i don't do flyers and i don't have a training center (though that will change in the next year). i work out of my home, i get students and patients by word of mouth, and i don't have any other job. i provide genuine service and authentic training, stripped of as much unnecessary filler as possible, and it subsidizes my spiritual life practice as i personally seek the highest levels.

oh yeah,

though i wish the last chapter never happened,

my standard textbook for all my students is The Healing Promise of Qi by Roger Jahnke. i reviewed it on amazon. you'll recognize my name.



and Todd,

i would have enjoyed a conversation with you. perhaps another time. on saturday i even had 'Hundun' written under my first name on the name tag, just so other tao bums would know who i am. if you ever want to chat, send me a message. i'll even call you or give you my number if you like. i try to be very approachable.

Did you learn the Shamanic tiger chi kung from dvd or book or from the teacher himself>?

Can you explain the wuji hundun system?

yes, he did. and no, i wasn't impressed.


i hope everyone reads this.

actually, this was the nature of the challenge that was made to him on friday night. the man asked if he would demonstrate on someone other than his students. he offered himself, but would have been satisfied with anyone who didn't know max beforehand. at first max said that if he did that, it would cause internal bleeding because the body of an uninitiated person can't handle the magnitude of energy.

they guy basically called bullshit and said that he flat-out didn't buy it, said that the movie trailer was deliberately misleading, openly challenged him, and said that he would accept the consequence of internal bleeding if it were real.

then max's story changed a little bit.

then, it was "you have to meet us half-way" for ethical reasons,

"i'm not a martial artist." --wait a minute! i thought he could teach a ton of different martial systems?

"it doesn't work if someone's swinging at you."

he said that in the "old days" it worked because people's meridians were more open.

THEN he said:

"it works with kunlun people. but it may not work with other people. most of the time it doesn't."

that's a direct quote.

then he listed a number of other masters who also had this ability, but, like him, it only works on their students.

"it's a new video, and we still have to work a lot of bugs out of it, but it's not meant to be misleading. our art is real. for enlightenment, it is." --hmm... but not for the empty force, apparently.

i still went through the workshop in good faith and with an open mind after this. again, i could accept that he was lacking in knowledge and was compensating with sensationalism, so long as he could produce real ability in the area that *I* cared about! i could scrap all the rest of it.

but there was nothing there. nothing substantial.


i have patients and students who go into involuntary movements and spasms when i run my energy; i know that it happens for real. i have a student that i've taken to deep blissful states through meditation and a patient that has decided to sponsor my work because of the blissful and "out-of-body" states that she experiences when i work on her without touch.

but i'm no master. mastery is in the details. in the subtleties. i don't have that.

but neither does max. he uses jargon that makes it sound as if he's in complete control, but it's not there. and he unknowingly confessed all of that on friday as well as saturday.

i remained forgiving and open until sunday morning. i stayed for maybe half an hour during the stance practice which he led so badly and haphazardly that i wanted to step in and lead the class.

it's okay to make up what you're gonna say as you go along (though it sucks when you're bad at it); it's NOT okay to make up the concepts as you go along!

I for one am totally fine with Hundun and Todd's negative responses to the workshop.

Just maybe have this one little thing to say...

Perhaps the transmission wasn't right for you rather than the entire human race.

Ok..that's all.

LMAO

Things are looking very shady!!!

There have been some that have got things out of it though and as long as there happy and brings them results who can blame them i guess.

Hundun

Whats your view on the heels raised when doing his practice?

Unlike you I try not to have views all day long.

Soooooo last 10,000 years mode...

i learned shamanic tiger from the dvd. i memorized in about an hour and a half, and could perform it with accuracy before the day was over. what took time was listening to my body and learning what the moves were doing to me so i could teach it from experience rather than someone's authorization.

i wrote to master wu about the form, and that wasn't very pleasing. there's a move called "double dragon plays with the pearl" where he performs it in one direction during the complete demo, and in the opposite direction in the instructional part. he never acknowledges this anywhere in the video or the book. so i asked him to explain it, and she just wrote back and said

"it can be done either way."

that's all he said.

so i wrote him again, saying that i understood that, but what attracted me to his form was his vast knowledge and understanding of the nuanced significance of the motions. i told him the differences i noticed in the energy flow with each directions, and i asked directly if the change-up was intentional. i said it was okay if it wasn't; i get that these things happen. but if it WAS intentional, i'd like to know the theoretical underpinnings or significance in changing direction from his more masterful perspective. and believe it or not, i wasn't condescending about it.

"the significance is the changeability of the dragon."

again, that's all he said.


there was another inconsistency in another movement, but after that exchange i just left it alone.


i really tried not to pose my question in a challenging manner. i genuinely wanted to know more and maybe even build a dialog with him.

whatevs.

i still love the form.


wuji hundun is what gary garripoli teaches (very badly) in his book. (i actually love his book, but the instructional part sucks) i learned it in-person when i was in kauai a few years back. again, i memorized it in about an hour and a half. then i sat on it for a year or so without practicing because i was lazy and felt like i "got it." now it teaches me.

he actually has a video out that teaches it, but i would recommend really watching how master duan does it (they show a few bits of duan's approach on the documentary, which comes with the video) because then you can get a sense of the free form nature of it.

i got to learn it in person, but it wouldn't have made a difference. seriously. i have the foundational basics. i can take something from an amateur on a bad video and run with it.

it doesn't take a master to teach qigong forms, just like it doesn't take an olympic gold medalist to teach a P.E class.

the basics take time. a teacher helps with that. transmission takes a master. claim to a lineage takes a master. but none of that is necessary for authentic cultivation.

i'll do a separate post about the wuji hundun system. probably tomorrow. maybe in the articles section.


**EDIT**


i just realized that i wrote "transmission takes a master." that's not true, as i'm not a master. but full transmission of a particular lineage should take a master. some say it makes one a master. but i disagree.

just wanted to clarify.

i absolutely agree with you, cam.

but if you noticed, i haven't really taken issue with the effectiveness of his transmission, other than to say it wasn't all that for me. my issue is primarily with his claim to mastery and his irresponsible teaching approach.

i often have to tell people that i'm not a master because they experience something so powerful and they make the mistake of believing that i directed the whole of it. i dissuade them of that notion, whereas max seems to capitalize on it.

Hundun, I think you basically trashed the whole seminar. Sorry you had such a bad time. I don't think I ever heard Max ever refer to himself as a Master, or Guru. He just said that he likes to be called Max. I definitely think his transmission is effective if you are open to it. Obviously you don't need to study with Max as you are too advanced for what he has to offer. I do think that they should change the video and take the martial arts out of it as it just causes too much controversy. Craig

Again, irresponsible teaching approach for you.

I am not going to keep repeating myself over and over.

Personally, I disagree. You start taking this out, that out, and soon you just have another over-commercialized, watered-down generic lesson plan designed to avoid any skeptical criticism whatsoever. A gutted-out version minus all the original "magic" that inspires the imagination and captured interest to begin with. Maybe Max's approach and level isn't quite for everybody - but I think it is for a decent majority of laymen.

I don't think Max claims to be a master, or enlightened, anyways. He prefers just to be called Max. And a lot of his playful demos are just showing what can be done under "ideal," controlled circumstances. Which are still impressive in that scenario alone.

Of course, Hundun appears to be at a very high level and so is going to see things with a different perspective than your average joe. In fact, sign me up whenever you decide to conduct your own classes, dude.

At the seminar I went to he claimed to be immortal. He said he had been pronounced dead twenty times. He mentioned something about documentation of this in Hong Kong, so he wasn't referring to past lives.

Someone asked a question about his experience after his enlightenment, and he did not say anything about not being enlightened.

He also mentioned finding a previously undiscovered pyramid half the size of Giza on the big island of Hawaii. He said he told some people about it, and the government took satellite photos of it, so they are going to get to it soon. But there are some other ones he didn't tell them about. Also, don't look for it on google earth, since it shows up as a white field, due to energy blocking the satellites. You need to be really good with the satellites, since the energy field goes down for only a minute and a half.

I don't mind being told lies, since everything is a lie from a certain perspective. (Everything is right from a certain perspective too, Cam. I am not attacking you, or anyone's experience, here.) However, please don't ask me to believe you when you tell me lies. It makes me think you don't want me to see the truth.

I could be wrong though. All of this could be true. I've only got my gut and my eyes and my intelligence to go by. Mostly my gut though.

Hello Hundun,

Interesting view.

I have another view on this that presents the kindness and humility of Max and his teachings. He has a nice energy and the practices he teach will benefit people who would like to gently move to emptiness meditation in a natural way. Personally I didn't much care about empty force demos even though they are interesting. They took a lot of time that could have been spent more productively. I understand he wanted to show people what is possible with years of practice and connection developed between 2 people. Also, Red Phoenix practice shouldn't be taught the way it is now. Very dangerous.

My guess is you present all your qualifications and what you know as a proof you are qualified to make a valid opinion about Max. Again, are you judging him based on his energy or what he says? I mean I can see something very special being presented here... as a child who could see sound waves, inside physical body and energy of other people since I was 8. It took multiple visits to different witch doctors to "contain" it after my parents got tired of me waking them up in the middle of the night talking about spirits, moving walls and energy waves hitting me and making me nauseous. So, for a child who learned energy healing without any help at the age of 14, I think I can recognize something special when I "see" it. When I went to learn with him, I went for Kunlun and transmission. The money was well spent. What did you go for? To prove he doesn't fall in the preconceived picture of how things are supposed to be? Well, no one claimed that to begin with…
Again, I'm not trying to discredit your experience, only understand why you went there to begin with.

Max

attacking,not attacking, thinking about attacking, thinking about not attacking.

It's all good.

I'm beginning to think I went to a different seminar.

I had a long post that deleted itself when I though I had pressed send. I'll take that as a "sign"

But I like to hear all the different views. Discussion is good and everyone is being polite.

Any dates to when Max comes out to Oz?

at first i really didn't think my past experience was all that relevant. the only reason i went there was because it was asked of my by cat, and after reading her comment i figured a lot of other people might wonder the same thing.

if it's not clear, i really don't think all that much about my qualifications. i know where i'm not, as far as development is concerned. i'm still seeking a true master that can give me some real guidance. that's why i went. i'm a lot further along than the average person, but i'm nothing compared to a true master. i've totally dedicated my life to spiritual pathworking- like i said, i don't have any other day job. but it's scary going it alone for so long. and i'm not confident that i will reach the highest levels without the help of a master. that's why i went.

and i know that i have a tendency to write in an overly-adversarial manner at times (i don't know- maybe it's a black thing ), but i do my best to be as honest and sincere as possible when i communicate.

personally, i didn't care much about the empty force thing, either. but he flat-out lied. i mean, first he said that his method would (not could, but WOULD) cause internal bleeding in the uninitiated, and then when pressed further he admitted that it doesn't work unless you're a student finely tuned to his energy, and even then only with cooperation.

"in this art, if you don't believe in it, it will not work." his words.

this type of discrepancy has nothing to do with preconceived notions on my part.

i was disappointed with that, as well as with his inability to answer my simple question, but i still went through with the workshop. i didn't throw down $450 so that i could prove him wrong. i did because, like everyone else, i was thirsty. when i saw that it wasn't a full cup, i was still willing to accept a few drops.

he does have an energy transmission. that's going to awaken some things in some people. but that's true of everyone who passes transmissions, and it doesn't make his knowledge and claims any less fraudulent.

what tipped the scale and led me to commit to the seminar was a really intense trauma release of one of my patients. she had a nervous breakdown, got really drunk, made a slight suicide attempt (i say slight because she herself acknowledged that she didn't really want to die, but she wanted the pain to stop). she had suppressed some pretty heavy memories of something that happened a year and a half ago. when it all started coming to the surface, she didn't know how to deal. her mother came to me in tears, and all i could was sit next to her and offer tears of my own.

she wanted to be strong for her daughter, and i told her that maybe what her daughter needed was to see that it was okay to not be strong, that sometimes falling apart is the only way for us to come back together in a way that's healing. that none of us gets out of this life without scars. and that's okay.

her mother is one of my strongest supporters. she thanked me for bringing it to the surface because now she IS dealing with it. she's going to A.A. and seeing a counselor who specializes in her type of trauma. but the severity of it all caught her daughter off guard and she's probably afraid to see me again.

i felt responsible. i felt like i traumatized her a second time. even if i'm not responsible for how it unfolded in her, i feel obligated to treat it like i am. so i wanted the counsel of a master who could help me. someone who could offer me either greater wisdom, or a technique that could ease the traumatic experience after such a severe cleansing process is initiated. that's what i was hoping for. and i was willing deal with all of the rest of it if i could have at least gotten that.

okay,

i'm done for the night.

i'll probably write more tomorrow. i hope you can believe me.

Hundun,
You little stinker.

One song keeps rolling through my head as I read your ka-ka: "smile in your face, all the time they want to take your place, backstabbers, backstabbers..."

Wow. You know after your first email in which you "announced your presence" to me I thought "oh great, another egotistical healer-syndrome-chump." Then when I met you, you seemed like a really nice guy. Now we are seeing the first guy again.

Here is the problem with Mr. Hundun: ego.

When you do Kunlun it is always the people who have the air of pride about them that get NO results. The problem becomes compounded when they look around and see everyone else is opening up. The ego cannot deal with this and the reaction is not good. In this case it was a quick exit on day two right before the dreaded Kunlun failure was about to be faced again.

Honestly man, you don't actually have much ability at this point. The ego makes it very hard to develop the real thing, because the real thing is all about feel. When you feel your way, you have to FEEL all of the shortcomings that cause the creation of a imbalanced ego in the first place.

After you left (mumbling about parlor tricks and how you could do all this stuff yourself) the group really opened up. It was awesome.

The Tibetan Buddhists that were in attendance had amazing breakthroughs and they understood the fullness of what Max has to offer. They know who he is and how very rare it is to find someone at his level.

Again, from the outside, this stuff looks like a different bird. If you are sensitive or have had some experience with these types of energies, then you see the value.

chris
with respect
you're the invisible one right now. loads of resources. you too
where is your compassion please?

Gordon, you did. You were at the seminar experienced by the clear mind.

It was good to see you.

Now you see the challenge we face in trying to present this stuff to the masses. You get all types.

The reality is that this stuff is not for everyone, but for those whose sole interest is healing and/or enlightenment this is as good as you will find.

I for one appreciate the review Hundun. You're saying what you need to say and if that requires being critical then so be it. I'm still keen to see Max when he comes out but I appreciate have a more well rounded view and you've helped to provide this. Thanks.

I really think you've taken this a little far. You have been rude and very disrespectful in trashing a very wonderful person. This practice is not for everyone. Obviously it's not for you. This practice is about direct experience. If you gave it a chance you would have figured out everything Max teaches is true. You didn't even stay for the second day, yet you are making these very "matter of fact" determinations. Yes, there are some very outstanding claims that are made. I will agree. However, direct experience has taught me that they are true. It's likely you will never find out. That's okay. Maybe someday you will be ready to experience what is really down the rabbit hole. Maybe not.

The practice stands the test of time. Opinions are as vast as the universe. Everyone is entitled to their own.

Kunlun is not for everyone. That is OK.

The two people who had no response gave bad reviews. That is unfortunate but very understandable.

Had they blasted open into the absurdity of the Tao, they might have a different review. In time I hope they experience the things the rest of the group did.