I am planning to practice the microcosmic orbit for the rest of my life, with my final goal being the ability to lead qi to the brain safely (water path). A friend recently recommended that I check out this forum, and after doing so I stumbled onto the practice of Kunlun. My friend had already told me alittle bit about it, but I read several of the threads and found it to be something I would very much like to train. However, I'm worried that it might interfere with my small circulation and embryonic breathing practices. Would Kunlun harm my other practices?

maybe i'm wrong about this (and please someone correct me if i am), but there's really nothing 'water path' about the microcosmic orbit.

the kunlun practice and embryonic breathing might prove to be a good pair, but if you identify with the principles of the water path, then you should realize that water doesn't lead; it flows. you allow the orbit to open on its own, without need of conscious direction. THAT's the safest method, and that's the water method. your biggest job it to get out of the way of what the natural flow will do for you all on its own. you learn to flow with it, with a sort of unconditional embrace.

i'd say that kunlun is very consistent with the water path, but the MCO is not.

the two would conflict and could cause serious complications.

My experience is that kunlun runs the orbit, better than "running the orbit" does.

There was a topic that has occasionally come up, that Chinese medical texts show ren (the front channel) as running up, but the qi gong runs it down. At times we've toyed with running the orbit the opposite way on occasion. A friend of mine who is a student of Chinese medicine, and has some extra info sources, has heard that the orbit runs both ways.

That's my experience, at least with the front channel, that it runs up and down... I'm not sure if it's different layers, always simultaneously both, or mostly emphasising one way or the other - whatever.

I find that kunlun allows the front to run up and/or down - whatever it does - and energy harmonizes and then flips around up the back, and then the cycle starts over. That's not the only thing I've found the kunlun method to do, but some part of it anyhow.

I find that my orbit is more naturally open during the day just being around, more than when I've tried other methods of "practicing the orbit".

So there.

Sifu Max's exact words to me,

"You don't need the microcosmic orbit".

Initially I was quite scared by the warning not to mix practices, but lately I'm feeling much more experimental. My latest thing is to lie down right after Kunlun, and put my palms over my lower dan tien area and circle a bunch of times first one way then the other--kind of like the "deer" exercise. I'm finding this sets off another cycle of wild laughter, which I assume is detoxing some layer of physical/emotional stuckness, and also helps me center my energy in that general area, something I can always use a little help with. If I don't post in the next month, assume I've died from the hubris of practice mixing. Oh well: shit happens.

Another slightly unorthodox Kunlun approach I've really taken to recently is asking for the Kunlun energy to help me with specific issues as I practice. Sometimes I ask for the Kunlun to help me flush out residue from childhood trauma still lurking in my body; sometimes I ask for help with a health issue; sometimes I ask for my next step in terms of spiritual growth, etc. I am quite amazed each time how the Kunlun experience changes quite elegantly in response to my requests.

I've been playing around with AYP IAM mantra during Kunlun practice.

According to Yang Jwing Ming's Chi Kung books:

Chi running through the microcosmic orbit up the conception vessel and down the governing vessel is known as the Wind path. This method runs counter to the natural flow.

The natural flow runs down the conception vessel and up the governing vessel, which is known as the Fire path.

Normally adherents run the MCO according to the natural flow, favoring the Fire path. This is considered the safest method and the easiest to perform.

Some systems choose the Wind path, because it is thought to be more powerful than Fire, allowing quick development of all kinds of abilities. Unfortunately it is also thought to be much more dangerous. The Chi built up this way MUST be returned to it's natural path once the exercise is complete, and complete concentration must be maintained throughout. That means if there's an earthquake, the phone rings, someone knocks on the door, or you suddenly must respond to something important without finishing your exercise, you are in real trouble. If you fail to return the flow to it's proper path immedeatly, serious health compromises are inevitable. Supposedly it only takes a moment of inattention to have major problems.

The Water path is an advanced method that brings the Chi down the Conception vessel, and then up the Thrusting Vessel, bypassing the Governing vessel altogether. This method is commonly taught in the Marrow/Brain Washing system of Chi Kung, and is supposed to raise the Shen very quickly. Jing storage using celibacy and or sexual kungfu is very important using the Water path, because ultimately the Jing is used to directly nourish the Shen mixing with Chi in the Upper Dan Tien instead of the Lower Dan Tien.

I have no personal experience with any of these methods, but I thought passing along the information from a Chi Kung master would be helpful.

thrusting vessel?? can you explain how water path works further?

in the beginning of the kunlun practice i practiced the orbit a few rounds in the end, it helped me to get off the a bit manic energy that showed up..
now the last days I experienced strong upwards flow in the front of the body, so doing the orbit like i'm used to would work against this.

Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm... I honestly wonder. If one is looking for other practices and wants to mix them with what one does: doesn't that mean that one isn't really that much satisfied with what one has and does not fully trust it?

Now you might say: Aaaahhh. Harry. Without mixing and experimenting past generations wouldn't have evolved things further...

then you get my answer: experimenting and mixing might be good if you have nothing already, experimenting and mixing and developing might be good if you already achieved something safely...

AND: quite a few did themselves damage by doing it without guidance...

listen to your teacher first



Harry

The thrusting vessel is one of the Eight Extraordinary Vessels, distinct from the more commonly known Twelve Meridians.

The Thrusting Vessel runs along the inside of the spine, from the tailbone to the top of the inside of the brain, and down to the roof of the mouth. The Thrusting Vessel is mirrored by the more commonly known Governing Vessel, which runs from the perinium, up the outside of the spine, and over the top of the head to the upper lip.

To explain further requires a knowledge of the way the Microcosmic orbit works. Essentially the Water path is the same as the Fire path, which is used in the ordinary Microcosmic orbit. The difference is that the Water Path sends Chi up the Thrusting Vessel instead of up the Governing Vessel. This is done because the Jing collected in the lower Dan Tien will start to follow the Chi up the spine over time until it reaches the brain (specifically the Upper Dan Tien). This is considered preferable because the Sacrum and bones of the skull are said to "thrust" spinal fluid and Chi into the brain cavity nourishing the nervous tissue along the way. Essentially you are taking advantage of a natural phenomenon in order to bring the Jing to the Upper Dan Tien. There the Jing pools and collects, mixing with the Chi that it's been following, and alchemically the two transform into pure Shen. At that point the Shen can be gathered and used to achieve enlightenment or immortality.

Again, for me this is all theory, though. I have yet to achieve any of these methods successfully in my personal practice. For real instruction, you need someone who has been there. If you find this person, let me know.

the idea i was drawing from:

The original water school of Taoism came into flower during Lao Tzu's time, around 2,500 years ago. Unlike the Neo-Taoist fire tradition, the original water school Taoists had no great drive toward physical immortality, a major focus of Neo-Taoism. While the water method is known for not forcing things, for literally letting things occur in their own time, it is far from passive. Adherents of the water method prepare in every possible way so that when circumstances are ripe for the successful completion of their practice, they are fully open and available to the moment....

The water method is a practical way to release blockages in the whole mind/body so one can fully transform and ultimately experience conscious harmony with the Tao, right down to one's bone marrow. Then one naturally acts according to the principles of the Tao Te Ching.

--Bruce Kumar Frantzis


far more broad and abstract than you were talking about, it would seem. "path" and "method" are not always the same thing.

but my advice, especially if you're new to cultivation practice, is:

when in doubt, don't. there are plenty of safe, consistent, harmonious methods without having to resort to questionable combinations.

the potential damage that can come from some of these practices is very real. a lot of people on this board can vouch for that. i'm one of them.

My ignorant opinion is if your serious about following any of the Tao schools give them atleast 1 year before mixing with others.

Of course..do your best to determine which Tao school is worth your time and effort to give that year or whatever..but give it a year..and don't have so many opinions about the practice.

Less talk more do..

Now that is the very best advice of all!



"Those who know little, have much to say. Those who know much, have little to say."

- The Old Master

Now if only he could follow it for more than 12 hours.

I am taking the whole month of November off so you better appreciate my posts while you can!

Let's see you spend the whole day hiking up mountains in Sedona, then come back and get a sensual asian massage, get 1 hour of sleep, be wide awake and not make some posts!

Ok..going out to get some gatorade!

I got a crisp $5 bill that says you can't make it 10 days without posting.

Let's raise the stakes..a Tao Bums Can Cam go a month without posting Betting pool.

Am going to make a new thread about it right now.

I've been doing AYP's Spinal Breathing (link) with kunlun.

so have i it seems (checked your link)
but i didnt know it was AYP just RYP)(regularyogapractice) or NMB(normalmeditationbreathing)
hehe

I'm the master of mix'n'match but I'm trying to resist the urge to do so on this one.

How about physical warm-up before kunlun... hmmmm?

bk frantzis also teachs microcosmic orbit.

yes!

to me THAT'S what makes the kunlun practice a true water method, at least according to my understanding. the orbit does what it does without you being the doer.

and while i may be crucified for taking a contrary view to dr. yang, i think his concept of natural flow is way too one-dimensional. there's a creative element of chaos (hundun) in every natural process of flow. the experience of the kunlun practice doesn't match up with yang's analysis of natural flow; i say go with the (far less rigid) lived experience, and if you're allowing rather than doing, then intellectual knowledge of the proper direction isn't even important.

THAT'S natural flow. and that's the safest, i think.

Thanks for the reminder...

Kunlun can be done mentally, and doing it physically or mentally can be a seriously nice tool when encountering excessive sexual energy.

I could never get the hang of MCO and was only so-so with spinal breathing. This seems much easier.

look, i'm never wrong about this stuff.

except when i am.

lol!


it makes me wonder why he'd teach that, though. to me it makes sense only after the orbit opens up on its own, 'cuz then you stretch your legs a little and get more familiar with how the directions of the currents affect you. it's the timing that would make the difference. but early on in cultivation training, i'm just really having trouble seeing it as part of the water method.

Agreed, and about the safety, too.

Lots to like about this method.

Everyone,

Thank you for taking the time to reply to this thread. I am seriously considering postponing the MCO in favor of kunlun. It seems to be a very powerful practice. Are there any dangers associated with kunlun?

Pace yourself; it's possible to over-do it if you apply over-zealousness.
Slower, faster, it's up to you.
Use your own feel for your own body
+ a little "middle way" wisdom.

Don't overdo it at the beginning (or you won't be sleeping for some days/nights; one hour of practice may already be far too much to begin with) and don't forget the closing down. Omitting that or ignoring the recommended length is certainly foolish. The warm up visualization seems to be pretty important, too (espeacially without the transmission). There is no absolute safty neither in life nor in spiritual practices. Just think of Gopi Krishna's story. Use your common sense and don't be too scary at the same time ... but it might still happen that a plane is falling on your head.

look at bk frantzis "marriage of heaven and earth" which is only the beginning process where frantzis suggests working with the mco and macrocosmic orbit.
the precept in frantzis water meditations is to lead the chi down first or let it sink down....when you are able to do that you have a good foundation. afterwards you learn to lead energies upwards too. afterwards means, when you have cleared your energy body from blockades through the dissolving process....thats at least my understand of his methods.

lao

Does anyone have any knowledge of B.K.Frantz water method look like or its practise?

I have both volumes of his Water Method on my shelf, but have not delved into them yet. I was so impressed with his book The Power of the Internal Arts that I immediately bought the water method books along with Opening the Energy Gates of your Body. The guy really seems to know his stuff. There's a gal who posts on youtube called SFJane that studied with Frantzis. You can probably get some tidbits from her:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BvD2rZjT5CA

Edit- FYI (I just messaged her and invited Jane to the forum)

As an aside, I brought up to my tai chi instructor that I had begun practicing Kunlun. She took me aside and warned me to be really careful and to stop immediately if I experienced dizziness etc... She said in her early days she had started practicing the grand circulation despite cautions she received about unsupervised practice. She said got an energy blockage on her back, but kept practicing thinking it would clear and it ended getting much worse. I was informed that it took her weeks of massage and tai chi to clear it out. She also said that people underestimate what practices such as tai chi are doing for them, and chase these other methods. FWIW My tai chi did feel somewhat unbalanced tonight. I still think I am going to stick with the Kunlun though as I actually enjoy it, but I am taking her cautions to heart.

The Kunlun book advises against mixing with other, specifically energy moving, practices. I think a stretching/yoga asana warm up is good, at least for me, to get my body and mind awakened, but I really don't have time for more than some stretching and 1.5 hours of Kulun before starting my day.

Jane is rad, I hope she comes here. Been meaning to invite her myself.

Max is at 2 hrs/day... Turbo 1.5... amazing stuff!! I'm maybe, if I feel like it, 15 minutes a day. I'm not taking it seriously until I get to Phoenix anyhoo for the empowerment part of it.

I meant that ideally the process takes 1.5 hours. 10 minutes to sit down get the visualization going, 1 hr of actual Kunlun, then 20 min of cooldown/dan-tien posture. I have never made a full hour yet, my shoulder usually gives out between 30 and 45 minutes. I recently had surgery on my ankle and have been unable to practice for a bit, hopefully I'll be able to get a few minutes in tomorrow morning.

Anyone have any ideas about a less than 1 hour Kunlun posture requiring less than 20 min cool down?

Max has said at the seminars that I attended that Kunlun deals with the downward flow and lots of other practices deal with the upward flow so that is why there may be a conflict. He suggested to take 30 days to just devote to Kunlun without doing other energy practices and then decide if you want to continue doing Kunlun or go back to your other practices.

After my first seminar I felt a lot of energy. Then I started practicing Kunlun, Red Phoenix, and the Maoshan 5 elements each day. I definitely felt a change in energy. I sort of felt like my body was full of energy and if I added anything else I might get sick. I had no desire to practice anything else.

People who are interested in Kunlun will have to see how if works for them or how to fit it into their lives with their current practices.

I usually don't practice Kunlun for over 30 minutes but when I combine Red Phoenix it starts to add up to one hour. I also practice Red Phoenix throughout the day when walking, etc.

Craig

I'm wandering what Max had to say about the cool down period, at the other seminars. I was at the SF seminar and he really didn't say much about it. It even seemed a little hurried in my opinion. He only mentioned bringing the energy down to your belly and yet, in the book, he says it is the most important part of the practice. Sup wit dat?

G

You don't want to leave the energy in the head so bring it down to your dantien when you are done with Kunlun so you can store it there. Put your right hand on the dantien with the left hand over it. Craig

I AGREE WITH THIS.

Not only Sifu Max but Smile also mentioned "Yeah I just do like 5 minutes cool down".

LISTEN TO ME NOW AND HERE ME LATER.

I don't know if Max and Smile are trying to play a joke on us or what but I have a new rule about Kunlun 1.

CLOSE DOWN SHOULD BE EQUAL LENGTH TO HOWEVER LONG KUNLUN PRACTICE IS.

I don't know much of anything but I know this "rule of thumb" is more balanced then what Sifu Max is saying..and I feel pretty akward and silly having to say that.

DON'T TAKE A CHANCE BUT FOLLOW CAM'S RULE OF KUNLUN THUMB.

namaste

Smiling and 20 minutes of bringing energy down is the most important part of Kunlun.
MO practice is a small part and I suspect was taken out of a complete Daoist system. I'm not found of "guiding energy with your mind" practices these days.
Max
(Not THAT Max so stop PM's)

Ok...Do Atleast 20 minutes close down and smiling like Smile says.

I am going to stick to my new "close down equal to kunlun time length rule" but if Sifu Max and Smile say 20 minutes and smiling is enough than should be ok for most people.

What are the benefits of kunlun? Ex. longevity, enlightenment, heatlh, etc. My reasoning for practicing the microcosmic orbit is because it increases longevity. Can kunlun do anything like that?

Most of us just started practicing Kunlun.

As far as longevity..as Smile once said "So far, so good".

Comparing Kunlun to MCO doesn't seem balanced to me.

There has been alot written about the practice here over the last month. Should be enough to go by..and it's not like the book is thousands of dollars or anything($15..at risingredphoenix.com)

here you can get an impression how it looks like :-)

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEXtrjhrAgI

lao

Okay I am really glad you posted this because I seem to be a having difficulty with it. Kunlun really loads up my head with energy. All day yesterday my head felt like it was full of compressed energy. Not a bad feeling really, just a slight pressure and slight tingling sensation on the top of my scalp. I had this happen before while practicing the microcosmic circulation and pulling jing up my spine. Lasted for almost 2 weeks then subsided. I am trying to guide it down to my dantien, but obviously a lot is getting stuck. Is anyone else experiencing this? Does Red Phoenix help? should I leave the energy there? If enough is pumped in will it force the crown or third eye open? I am really quite new to these practices, and a couple years ago I would have said it was BS but I am experiencing some very real phenomena.

Max told me that the ultimate goal of Kunlun is for enlightenment or to awaken you. To go back to the source and realize the divine self. There are a lot of other benefits before that, like good health. If you combine Kunlun with the Red Phoenix Max said that you can eventually attain a golden dragon body which is the highest state a Daoist can attain. Max said that none of his Kunlun or Maoshan teachers had been able to do this but when he combined the two practices (Kunlun and Red Phoenix) he discovered that one could attain the golden dragon body. Craig

Several feet & ankle suggestions that might not help at all.

Lately I've been experimenting mostly with my foot roller, but I've done the same thing with ankle rotations. Bottom line: Occasionally do them for longer (at moderate pressure), until the whole foot / ankle is warm. I mean feeling physically warm. It'll feel supple at the point, too. Then maybe more regularly for shorter sets. I feel that these are good warm-ups (before/after/aside) to assist the earth part of the kunlun practice. (Also what I've said about relaxing~opening the sole during.)