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mikaelz
I introduced a friend of mine to Kunlun recently to get an opinion on it, i trust his knowledge and wisdom on these matters and he gave me a pretty concise answer that i feel many of you will appreciate reading.

QUOTE
If I look the cathartic releases of Kunlun - heat, sweating, emotional outbursts - that is what you can get with ungrounded Fire methods: A lot of energy hits a blockage and makes it go in one big release, possibly many. Since every blockage release also can be accompanied by toxin release, this brute force approach can be interpreted like shock to your emotional and energetic system - the sweating is a typical detoxification reaction, the crying and hysterical laughter typical of cathartic methods.

In a water method these would have been neutralised and grounded properly, natural flow would have been restored, like applying a bit more water pressure soaks into a sand barrier and then starts to carry it away. In a fire method you simply run as much current as you can over the wire, burning through resistance. If you are not gifted genetically/energetically with a strong enough wire, damage can occur. Side effects are typical of such an approach.

Robert's NEW is BTW a very good compromise. Since it offers blockage cleaning methods it can be used to "clean the wire" before "running current".

Fire methods are typical for power seekers, while water methods appeal a bit more to insight seekers. Fire builds power, Water relaxes. Fire creates, Water uncovers. Many meditation methods, anything where you gently focus your attention on issues to resolve them, are really Water methods, they just don't spell it out as energy work or name it like that. Many of the explicit energy work schools are more towards the Fire side of the continuum.

At least at Level 1 I would categorise Kunlun as pure (if not extreme) Fire method. If you actually aim or welcome side effects, then it is not a Water method. These are typical signs of overworking yourself, true to the goal-oriented nature of Fire methods. Fire sets a goal and works relentlessly towards it, creating it. Water looks what is there already, and uncovers it.

Both methods have the potential for enlightenment. Fire offers more pitfalls. It offers power and distracts from true insight. Both in Water and Fire you have to overcome the desire for ego reinforcement, power and attachment. But I found that many Fire schools neglect this aspect. It is very important to be aware of the pitfalls and keep the intent of freeing yourself, It is very important to see the trapping of power and minimise the use of power, to uproot the ego instead of reinforcing it.

In the end in any school you have the potential to fall beside the wayside and into the power trip. When a Water scholar uncovers the psychic and causal/karmic bodies the forces of creation and enormous knowledge is within its reach. It is a time of trial, where all that stands between you and the power trap is your own intent.

I'm always wary of methods like Kunlun Level 1 because I got burned repeatedly by methods that unwisely work with energy like that. So now I stick with what I do, Dissolving and movement Qigong, and some other methods, like for example NEW Energy Raising/Full Body Circuit or a Shielding Bubble, but I never sit down anymore to do a full half-hour of more of MCO like the followers of Mantak Chia would.

Oliver
Oolong Rabbit
QUOTE(mikaelz @ Nov 3 2007, 06:33 AM) *

I introduced a friend of mine to Kunlun recently to get an opinion on it, i trust his knowledge and wisdom on these matters and he gave me a pretty concise answer that i feel many of you will appreciate reading.


Kunlun is both fire and water. Level 1-2 = fire and level 3 = water. I would say fire method can be more dangerous, but the results come faster than water method. Vajrayana buddhism practioners say as much. I have a family, a demanding job etc... I need to make every minute of practice count, so that is what makes the fire method more appealing to me at this point in my life (although I still love my tai chi wink.gif ).
Yoda
I'm guessing that Kunlun is a water thing... no consciously directing the flow, no expected outcomes, no goals, the flow that does get set up goes downwards and doesn't feel hot or sexual, at least to me. As opposed to kundalini, it doesn't even feel like light or bright energy.
Oolong Rabbit
QUOTE(Yoda @ Nov 3 2007, 10:54 AM) *

I'm guessing that Kunlun is a water thing... no consciously directing the flow, no expected outcomes, no goals, the flow that does get set up goes downwards and doesn't feel hot or sexual, at least to me. As opposed to kundalini, it doesn't even feel like light or bright energy.


What about the heat burning away the blockages Yoda? Also the movements are very animated and fast paced. More on par with fire method than the slowness and stillness of the water method in my humble opinion. Even the beginning meditation seems to require active concentration/visualizations.
portcraig
When I took my first seminar Max kept telling me to be like water. My movements before he told me this were all fast as I have a lot of fire energy built up in my body. I have had to keep working on being more like water. Kunlun deals with the downward flow which is a cooling energy and not the kundalini which is the upward flow and is a fire energy. Maybe the heat one feels is the cooling downward flow mixing with the fire already present in the body. Craig
Mantra68
Kunlun is a water practice by nature. It is the descent of the spirit into the body which is a very cooling type of feeling. It is a coolness that can literally be felt by others in the room.

With Kunlun you have an emptiness practice where one starts with a form and then lets it go. The form activates the "reset" function in the body that is fundamental to all of us. Once this process activates one can go through feelings of heat, twisting into spontaneous postures, speaking in tongues, laughing, crying, and sublime void.

So, in the beginning you may experience the full range of energetic possibilities, but you will ultimately be brought to a place of deep harmony. If you have fire in you it will be purged. If you have emotional blockages, they will be released. Raising your fire is not necessary to achieve these results. This is the true power of water.

Kunlun brings order out of chaos.
thelerner
Fire or Water? I guess it depends on the practitioner. Where they direct their consciousness and how energy sensitive they are(& how long there sessions are) To me Level One feels like an emptiness meditation done while holding a large battery.

I find it watery smile.gif. Ofcourse I never found the Micro cosmic orbit to be particularly hot. To me it always felt like a circular skin mantra.


Michael
agharta
QUOTE(thelerner @ Nov 3 2007, 11:34 AM) *

To me it always felt like a circular skin mantra.
Michael


I practice another circular skin mantra, in addition to that one. laugh.gif
Spectrum
QUOTE
The form activates the "reset" function in the body that is fundamental to all of us. Once this process activates one can go through feelings of heat, twisting into spontaneous postures, speaking in tongues, laughing, crying, and sublime void.


Actually that is wuji. Kunlun is subject to wuji, it's not the otherway around. The rest of it is pour form.
Smile
Oliver has a good insight but lacks wisdom to see the whole picture. Kunlun level 1 is not just about the posture, smiling and letting go. It's also 20 minutes of sitting afterwards.
Spectrum
QUOTE
Kunlun brings order out of Chaos


How does Kunlun do that?

QUOTE

Kunlun level 1 is not just about the posture, smiling and letting go. It's also 20 minutes of sitting afterwards.


In the beginning there was nothing. Stillness is good anytime during practice. Even when you're giggling up a smile. Sometimes you can just pause in the Taiji form, it's so beautiful in composition, that you can just release into one of the 13 postures, find wuji's connection through the 8 energies 5 directions, suspend, sung, sum or one. You know Ravi would agree. Music is movement.

Everytime emptiness is brought back into the center of the movement, alignment and relaxation generate internal movements, things you can't see, things you feel. Stillness works SOOO good for centering if you keep feeling a wobble while surfing the breath of the movements. Those wobbles on the horizontal plane, their thoughts between heaven and earth. Warbles to the Top stop nothing in the Way.

Wuji. Yin-Yang. TaiJi. PaKua.

Nothing Empty Nothing Full Blends The Perfect Move

Once you learn anything worthwhile mixing and matching is how you play the game. 10,000 forms of chi gung? Then again we have Bikram copywriting the order of his Yoga poses.... that's like copywriting a specific configuration of irrigation ducting for water to flow. Hmghd.

I'm going to copywrite the stillness ....pause.... Anytime I feel stress at work, I pause, breath into wuji, and boing. Perhaps I can hit up Gaia for a booty call on the way home from the patent office.

Spectrum
Korpo
QUOTE(Mantra68 @ Nov 3 2007, 04:19 PM) *
With Kunlun you have an emptiness practice where one starts with a form and then lets it go. The form activates the "reset" function in the body that is fundamental to all of us. Once this process activates one can go through feelings of heat, twisting into spontaneous postures, speaking in tongues, laughing, crying, and sublime void.


All of these are signs of ungrounded energy practice, except the last. These are energy discharges, ungrounded, upsetting the energetic system. A method that does not properly ground the energy can IMO never be a Water method.

IMO the difference between Fire and Water methods is not the direction of the energetic current. The direction of the current is just a safety measure. Anytime you overwork your energetic system it is not a Water method, though. The Water aspect of gentleness, dissolving is what makes a Water method what it is. Respecting your limits, learning them, and allowing you to stay relaxed. You cannot properly relax something that you work to 100% or beyond (i.e. overwork beyond its innate capacity).

Spontaneous Qigong is its very own thing, it is not necessarily Water either. Nothing in the Water method prevents you from directing energy. If you do it like Bruce Frantzis teaches it, you actually direct the energy downward as a safety measure against side effects like the ones above.

I think the above discernments are too strongly fixated on alchemical aspects, but while the downward current has a cooling effect and can help stabilise your energetic system, this alone does not prevent forcing, strain, overworking, going beyond the limit or burn-out systems. It does however help in grounding. A method is Water if it focuses on uncovering of what is there (removing blockages of physical/etheric, emotional, mental nature) instead of focusing on creating power by activating power by visualisations, forceful energy leading, opening of special channels and so on.

Strong grounding is an important component in a method aiming for insight, because only when you ground agitated energies you can see subtler energies.

I find it irrelevant whether you sit for 20 minutes after such a practice or not - at least to whether it is Fire or Water. First you upset the energetic system, and then you try to sit? It's like the remedy for the damage done by the method itself. I'd guess if you'd leave out that component the method would leave you agitated and over longer periods a nervous wreck.

BTW, I did not practice nor know Kunlun in detail, I just was citing the promised effects the practice has - sweating, speaking in tongues, crying, hysterical laughter and so on. Anyone welcoming such effects in practice is already on the Fire path, no mistake. These effects always happen as side effects of improper grounding and overworking, and are only signs of progress for those who do not care what they actually do to their body, mind and soul in the search of power.

Oliver
Hundun

i think you're on to some good stuff here, oliver.

but i think your perspective is WAY too rigid! particularly that last paragraph of yours. power-hungry people don't tend to be very good at surrender. and it's not at all uncommon for the spontaneous, cathartic expressions of the body to induce miraculous healings, both physically and psychologically.

i don't know how far along you are in your practice, but the vast majority of the highest forms are formless and involve surrender and allowing the body to do as it will.

water can be turbulent in places where there is resistance.


i like your perspective; i just think it could benefit from being tempered with more openness.

for whatever that's worth.
mikaelz
can't kunlun be combined with some water methods to balance out?
Cameron
The "close down" of Kunlun=water method.

Sitting still for 20 minutes with your hands over your navel and just watching the breath or doing nothing.

Don't see how much more water you can get than that.

If it makes you feel better ask your all knowing friend to dump a bucket of water over your head as you sit.
ísvatn
QUOTE(mikaelz @ Nov 4 2007, 01:44 AM) *

can't kunlun be combined with some water methods to balance out?


I can't relate to this critical judgement. blink.gif My own expericence is that the closing down in Kunlun has a cooling and grounding effect. The chi is stored properly and you don't have any weird energy running around in your system. That's something I have only succeded with moving forms before.

I didn't have any extreme experience at all - so far. It's more stillness meditation than anything else. The energy feels very subtle, but is still very powerful. Lack of energy is no issue anymore. The heat reminds me more of condensing water/steam than of burning fire.

Just my personal two cents ...


Spectrum
QUOTE
The "close down" of Kunlun=water method.

Sitting still for 20 minutes with your hands over your navel and just watching the breath or doing nothing.


Have you tried doing that before practice to see what happens?
Cameron
I do more.

The way I am doing it is however long I do Kunlun I do close down.

So 20 minutes Kunlun=20 minutes close down

1 hr Kunlun=1 hr close down

But the close down=practice time thing is something I plan on sticking to.
Hundun
QUOTE(Cameron @ Nov 3 2007, 07:26 PM) *

I do more.

The way I am doing it is however long I do Kunlun I do close down.

So 20 minutes Kunlun=20 minutes close down

1 hr Kunlun=1 hr close down

Chris doesn't mention this on the Kunlun flyer but Max "shot out" for 6 months after learning Kunlun. If I can get my stuff somewhat together by the Phoenix workshop that will be 2 months for me..I can't afford 6 months laugh.gif

But the close down=practice time thing is something I plan on sticking to.



shot out? i don't know what you're alluding to.
Cameron
Yup.

I don't know the details.

My opinion is this should be gone over in detail before the workshop.

In my case the first 6 weeks after the workshop I have been spacey and "out there" to say the least.

But I am hopeful things are returning to the lower tan tien and get balanced.

There is really ALOT that can be improved in the way the material is being presented. I guess it is up to Max and Chris at this point.

Don't get me wrong I am still glad I went and am doing the workshop in Phoenix but yes..things need to be explained a little bit more thoroughly so sensitive people like me can cope.
mikaelz
QUOTE(Cameron @ Nov 3 2007, 10:26 PM) *



Chris doesn't mention this on the Kunlun flyer but Max "shot out" for 6 months after learning Kunlun. If I can get my stuff somewhat together by the Phoenix workshop that will be 2 months for me..I can't afford 6 months laugh.gif




i can now see why you were so attracted to Kunlun in the first place. fast results, fast enlightenment eh? a little obsessive are we. why the rush? do you expect a medal ceremony at the end? laugh.gif
Cameron
I have been doing this for the last 12 years wiseass.

Your a little punk smile.gif
Hundun
QUOTE(Cameron @ Nov 3 2007, 09:45 PM) *

I have been doing this for the last 12 years wiseass.

Your a little punk smile.gif


lol!
mikaelz
good luck smile.gif
i hope you win.
Cameron
QUOTE(mikaelz @ Nov 3 2007, 10:06 PM) *

good luck smile.gif
i hope you win.



Win what?

Don't put words in my mouth.

mikaelz
relax, i only joke!

anyway,
i think Kunlun is a good practice. water? no, atleast not for level 1. but I personally see nothing wrong with fire. the "cool down" part could provide sufficient grounding.. but if not then further grounding techniques should be implemented. i got the book, but... i agree with Cameron that it needs to be refined. Mantra told me they are rewriting the book so I look forward to that.
Cameron
Great!
Mantra68
I don't remember a story about Max "shooting out" at any point.

The way this method is being taught is absolutely fine. Historically, it was whispered in a bamboo tube and you were left to figure it all out YOURSELF. No support and no "expert" analysts giving their outside opinions. Just go and do.

What I find interesting is it is the people who do not do Kunlun that are generating fear around it. My experience is that it is a very smooth process.

In fact, I just sat in with the women's group tonight and it was amazingly harmonious. We started with some standing practice to charge up and then went into Kunlun. I have never been to the place I went to while standing with the group. My energy opened up and I expanded into a much larger form. It was incredible and the magnetic radiance filled the room.

Once we started Kunlun, the scintillating bliss started to rise like champaign bubbles, smoothing out my energy along the way. Then I felt my spirit move down into my body to fill the places it is normally reluctant to enter. Gone were the little tensions and the tightness in my chest. I could trace every restriction to its source and release them. I was left feeling like a clear empty body of light with cool waves of energy emanating in every direction.

I understood what Max has been telling me, that it is the magnetic energy that kicks in with Kunlun; not so much about fire and water. I also realized that it is almost exactly like sex in that we don't worry about fire and water when we get our groove on, we just get our groove on and go with the FEELING.

Does anyone consider whether the energy you generate during sex is going to be too yin or yang? I doubt it because, as you know, the orgasm that you experience is magnetic in nature. Scintillating magnetic expansion.

Activating your Kunlun energy is exactly the same but on a higher, lighter, more divine level.

In that state, all discussion about "Kunlun" becomes absurd. First, because words can't do justice to the experience you are having and secondly because you find yourself in an incredibly timeless, familiar personal place of knowing that everyone has and it doesn't matter AT ALL whether you try to share it or not because you know that eventually everyone will find themselves in that same place.

It is as if you are just a wave that has descended from individuality back down to merge with the ocean where you then realize that none of the waves are separate from the whole. All is ocean.

So,I encourage everyone to rely on direct experience, not my words. All I know is my experience. You need your own to really understand.
Wun Yuen Gong
Chris Mantra

I sent you PM and asked some questions on the forum but i dont know if you received them or want to answer??

Check your PM if you dont know you received a PM!

WYG
yiqili
well said, mantra.

seems like you had a great experience with the women's group.

if you will recall, at the second LA workshop, the men tried to form their group. one guy took everyone's info and said he would contact. maybe he did. but not me.

i understand the reasons for keeping separate at first, but am finding myself wanting people to practise with here in LA.

Any suggestions?
Mantra68
QUOTE(yiqili @ Nov 4 2007, 12:10 AM) *

well said, mantra.

seems like you had a great experience with the women's group.

if you will recall, at the second LA workshop, the men tried to form their group. one guy took everyone's info and said he would contact. maybe he did. but not me.

i understand the reasons for keeping separate at first, but am finding myself wanting people to practise with here in LA.

Any suggestions?

The men are meeting this Wednesday. I have not been involved with their group thus far, but I plan on attending along with the incredible Golden Phoenix and magical Dakini.

I am excited to see how things are going. The chicks will really stir up the energy.

PM your name to me and I will send you the info.
yiqili
no doubt they will.

i sent you a pm, but don't really know if i did it right or if it worked.

thought i'd double the effort with this message.

fanx.



QUOTE(Mantra68 @ Nov 4 2007, 12:18 AM) *

The men are meeting this Wednesday. I have not been involved with their group thus far, but I plan on attending along with the incredible Golden Phoenix and magical Dakini.

I am excited to see how things are going. The chicks will really stir up the energy.

PM your name to me and I will send you the info.

Cameron
Oh?

My bad Chris.

It's possible I misunderstood what you were saying to me with the bagpipes in the backround of my apartment and really strange sensations in my body.

Ummm...sooo..everything is totally fine!

Seriously..so far I am the only one who stopped sleeping it seems so I am prepared to admit the possibilty that I am just a Kunlun freak...or even just a freak in general laugh.gif
mikaelz
QUOTE(Cameron @ Nov 4 2007, 02:50 AM) *

Oh?

My bad Chris.

It's possible I misunderstood what you were saying to me with the bagpipes in the backround of my apartment and really strange sensations in my body.

Ummm...sooo..everything is totally fine!

Seriously..so far I am the only one who stopped sleeping it seems so I am prepared to admit the possibilty that I am just a Kunlun freak...or even just a freak in general laugh.gif


i'm glad that the practice is working so well for you.
you said you've been doing this for 12 years, what have you tried and with what success?

mikael
Cameron
I started with Zen..same as Mantra..and moved on to qigong..some Healing Tao..back to Zen...back to qigong..found my way here..been an active member here for the last 3 years..you could probably do a search for the posts I have made here over the past 3 years and get better feedback that I can fit into a post.

I also have my jounral here on the practice jounrals..that would be somewhere you can go to read about my misadventrues..pretty much most of what I am up to cultivaiton wise is on there.
Mantra68
God, it is hard to read antagonistic posts when your middle dan tien is opened up. Can you guys please try to be more civil with each other.

Of all the people in the world interested in these things, only a few of us are here communicating with each other. We should be more gracious and less inclined to strike (I too have had my moments in the past).

After all we are talking about opening ourselves up to the divine within. The most beautiful experience imaginable.

We all want the same thing. Be nice.
Cameron
Hey Chris!

There is a cool, fun restaurant/club literally like across the street from the Vision Quest Bookstore called Sugar Daddy's. If you want, Yoda has offered to treat you and Max to whatever you like to eat. They also have live bands play there often..there will be no hate between different Tao clans in my town!!

link
Mantra68
QUOTE(Cameron @ Nov 3 2007, 07:26 PM) *

Chris doesn't mention this on the Kunlun flyer but Max "shot out" for 6 months after learning Kunlun. If I can get my stuff somewhat together by the Phoenix workshop that will be 2 months for me..I can't afford 6 months laugh.gif

You are referring to a story I told you about a former student who tripped out into the Tao for 6 months and then finally came back around. I believe he may have mixed the practice with drugs.

A big price to pay, but on the positive side he is ok now and has incredible healing ability.

Max had another student who was a former meth addict who had developed an incredible healing ability. He was working with kids with cancer, pulling people out of comas and doing wonderful work.

He even went through an intense ceremony which included standing in one spot from sunset to sunrise without moving. He was really amazing and so grateful for the good he was able to do.

Then he met a girl who had done a weekend retreat to become a shaman and she talked him into doing an Ayuhuasca ceremony. He did and during the ceremony they started having sex. As he opened himself up she absorbed 80% of his life force and exchanged it with 80% of her crap energy. She knew what she was doing and took his ability and left him with her misery.

He could no longer heal others and distraught, returned to being a drug addict. He will not be able to generate again for this lifetime.

The other side doesn't give you many chances. That is why you must be very careful when you start these kinds of things in terms of what and who you mix your practice with.

Keep it pure and surround yourself with good people.
Cameron
My original post on this matter has been edited to reflect the new evidence.

And this is my "official pubic really, not kidding" last post on Taoist Discussion this year. You can find me on my personal discussion for chats where no insults and egotism will be tolerated.

Or on my email..or you can call me..or I will just see you in Phoenix in 2 weeks..where Yoda is eager to buy you dinner!
Pero
QUOTE(Mantra68 @ Nov 4 2007, 04:51 PM) *

Then he met a girl who had done a weekend retreat to become a shaman and she talked him into doing an Ayuasca ceremony. He did and during the ceremony they started having sex. As he opened himself up she absorbed 80% of his life force and exchanged it with 80% of her crap energy. She knew what she was doing and took his ability and left him with her misery.


Wow, that`s messed up...
lockpaw
QUOTE(Mantra68 @ Nov 4 2007, 08:51 AM) *

Then he met a girl who had done a weekend retreat to become a shaman and she talked him into doing an Ayuasca ceremony. He did and during the ceremony they started having sex. As he opened himself up she absorbed 80% of his life force and exchanged it with 80% of her crap energy. She knew what she was doing and took his ability and left him with her misery.


Maybe this is why its better to develop insight and wisdom rather than supernormal energy powers. Wisdom and insight, once gained, cannot be stolen or lost.
Pero
QUOTE(lockpaw @ Nov 4 2007, 05:03 PM) *

Maybe this is why its better to develop insight and wisdom rather than supernormal energy powers. Wisdom and insight, once gained, cannot be stolen or lost.


I`m not so sure about that.
Mantra68
QUOTE(lockpaw @ Nov 4 2007, 09:03 AM) *

Maybe this is why its better to develop insight and wisdom rather than supernormal energy powers. Wisdom and insight, once gained, cannot be stolen or lost.

It is important to LISTEN to everything your teacher tells you. He may only say something once.
Spectrum
Gotta love the classics:

"Stand like a perfectly balanced scale and
move like a turning wheel....

...

Within yin there is yang.
Within yang there is yin.

Yin and yang mutually aid and change each other.

...

Silently treasure knowledge and turn it over in the mind.
Gradually you can do as you like.

Fundamentally, it is giving up yourself to follow others.
Most people mistakenly give up the near to seek the far.
It is said, "Missing it by a little will lead many miles astray."

The practitioner must carefully study.
"
rex
QUOTE(Mantra68 @ Nov 4 2007, 03:51 PM) *
As he opened himself up she absorbed 80% of his life force and exchanged it with 80% of her crap energy. She knew what she was doing and took his ability and left him with her misery.
blink.gif What a witch! (in the worst sense of the term). Eventually she'll go back to being her old miserable self and will have to do it to someone else again. sad.gif
rex
QUOTE(Mantra68 @ Nov 4 2007, 03:51 PM) *
He could no longer heal others and distraught, returned to being a drug addict. He will not be able to generate again for this lifetime.
Shit! Won't even some sort of soul retrieval ceremony and practice help?
mikaelz
not again for this lifetime? i think thats a bit pessimistic.. i tend to look at things more brightly and think, why not? if he stops doing drugs and gets serious about cultivation, why not?
Little1
wait a sec...
if he cannot restore his power again, it can either be one of two

1. the girl was highly trained
2. the power wasn't his

if you master your power, you can call it back, even if it's stolen. it's yours. and if you cannot do that, you can always create another. but that means you are in perfect understanding of chi...
and chi is not bioelectricity, nor heat, nor light, nor magnetism...

rolleyes.gif
Mantra68
QUOTE(Little1 @ Nov 4 2007, 11:14 AM) *

wait a sec...
if he cannot restore his power again, it can either be one of two

1. the girl was highly trained
2. the power wasn't his

if you master your power, you can call it back, even if it's stolen. it's yours. and if you cannot do that, you can always create another. but that means you are in perfect understanding of chi...
and chi is not bioelectricity, nor heat, nor light, nor magnetism...

rolleyes.gif

You must realize how much of these gifts are just that: "gifts." If you abuse them you will lose them.

There is much unseen influence in our lives.
rex
QUOTE(Mantra68 @ Nov 4 2007, 08:41 PM) *

You must realize how much of these gifts are just that: "gifts." If you abuse them you will lose them.

Sheesh! That's harsh. He was the victim of abuse. Couldn't he have the gift restored?
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