so i was thinking... too much probably.

who cares about bliss? and why is that being associated with enlightenment?
i'm drawn to kunlun because of the energetic development but i don't understand why its being marketed as a fast one way ticket to bliss.. and the word enlightenment is thrown in. to me enlightenment is more than just feeling good, i can just take extasy pill every morning for that. enlightenment to me is dispelling illusion and living in oneness. knowing the truth and living the truth. what does that have to do with bliss? and why does the philosophy of kunlun seem so 'dumbed down'? no offense meant to Max of course, but i feel that questioning our teachers methods are important or else we'd be mindless drones.

Maybe don't think so much and do 100 days and a workshop first before critisizing how Max teaches his system?

Just a thought bro.

Mickaelz,

Good questions and i do remember i asked you what BLISS was remember????

It is assosiated with enlightenment because it is our natural state, our true selfs state. Deep down we really really really love life and enjoy every detail in it.


I agree, enlightenment is about more than bliss. It is a good marketing strategy though, it works. There is nothing people, or egos, want more than being happy and successfull. Books about gaing money and happiness in 1-2-3 are allways bestsellers. I believe deep bliss is a by-product of enlightenment, not the other way around. If we dont reconfirm our new-found truth(from releasing illusion), nurture it and let it grow into our daily life and practice, the bliss will tone down and we will gradually come back to the illusions we started with.


They say that whenever an energetic block, or illusion, is released, bliss takes its place. Notice that enlightened people are always happy and shining. When we dont limit ourselves, when we stop confirming our own illusions over and over, our true unlimited self is present. Happiness dosent explain that condition. Its a lot more intense than that. I think bliss or samadhi is more a correct description.


I dont feel it is "dumbed down", only not so important. My impression about kunlun is "practice and feel, dont think".

Interesting....does living in an enlightened oneness state necessarily equate to bliss?..........

What if a hunter just shot, killed, and gutted the deer who comes around every evening to enjoy your pasture? ......this creates deep sorrow in one who understands the oneness of all things.........actually the more I experience reality the more sorrow I feel as I look around me and see what bondage my human brothers and sisters are under.......nothing blissful about it.

Can a truly enlightened individual experience bliss when all around him a war is raging and children are dying?

One only has control over so much in this world, the rest is beyond - not that one would condone the bad behaviors, but worrying too much about it would seem to be a form of attachment. Is ignorance bliss when it comes to something like that, though?
Personally, I've got enough on my plate to worry about...I try to do what I can, change what I may, accept what I cannot.

If not now, when?

When things are perfect?

That will be a long wait my friend.


There are pieces of the world that are indeed perfect.
Seek'em out and cherish them.

There are places in the world we can fix and make closer to whole.
Find'em and do the work. Karma (service) yoga is as real and worthwhile as any other.


I'm not much a bliss person myself,
but I do think the state holds power
beyond just feeling good.

Michael

Michael - I concur. I was going to write a long boring discourse agreeing with you and then I realized there was no need.

Thanks for sharing with me.

Michael in RI

the world will always have it's problems - there has been death since there has been birth. if you are reading this that means you are not dead and have the ability to practice - and should do so.

The universe collapses without the balance of death, suffering, destruction, injustice and unfairness. I can't speak at all to Kunlun and what they categorize as bliss, but, I bet that this bliss is more of a byproduct or a "tool" here as opposed to a destination.
Or better yet a "pillar"! Pillars may be highly decorative but they hold up the rest of the structure. You don't build pillars just to sit and look at them. They have a function.

I am pretty much just flappin' in the breeze here really. I don't know anything.

As usual Michael has kept our collective feet on the ground- good Aikido! & Good thinking staying grounded in reality... it may be a quantum leap of faith on some levels but our shared reality has it all for us... stay the course, wiggy as they often are -many of these courses bared results for some... and some of us are at least becoming aware of our options here...

hahah

no you gave me some tidbits to think about. i agree with you, i just don't understand why kunlun is being marketed so that bliss is the endresult, not the byproduct. i just feel this plays to the ego and attracts the wrong kind of seekers

They are perfect to us because they either benefit us or are comfortable.
That is the ego's perfection.

Michael am still waiting for your Kunlin report - what is happening - where are you now.
Did I miss it?

To answer my own question I would say sure because as you said......I don't believe either that the state of bliss is a feel good thing.............I believe you can have both feet on the ground.....shedding tears while scrapping dead guys off the road and still be in a state of bliss...............this tip toe through the tulips stuff I don't agree with.

i just feel this plays to the ego and attracts the wrong kind of seekers!!!

And if ya want to tip-toe thru this world ya better have the right kind of sneakers...

not saying it isn't a good practice for energy cultivation though, so i'm going to continue practicing it.

When you experience what is being pointed to you will perhaps understand the Way and It's Power or maybe one might fall back on craving intellectual understanding, it is all ok though. The Bliss that is being talked about, regardless of tradition, is a universal experience and so powerful and beautiful that one has no questions Not just talking about feeling "good".

Yes, find your own way! it is your life, your path. I have no idea what Kunlun is and never paracticed it but I know what I know from direct experience. Maybe it is a path for you and maybe something else is better. Regardless of what you choose, your intellect is going to be challenged beyond what you can fathom.

I am not a fan of paths that are reliant on anything but giving one the tools to make their own discoveries. That is not to say that guru paths aren't legit but there is a whole nother potential for disappointment that isn't necessary in my opinion.

Best,

Matt

Self-discovery from doing practice. Direct experience with the Tao. Go as far as you want.

No philosophy needed.

Mantra68...

The Taoist Philosophical conversation killer.



ps. I aspire to that level.

Excellent post mikaelz. I've wondered, and posted similar thoughts. Regrettably, I got nothing of substance in reply. You've received some substantive replies but nothing which addresses the fundamental question of (paraphrasing) "what value is Kunlun towards attainment of enlightenment?"

I strongly suspect that there is a not insignificant degree of hyperbole in the Kunlun business plan. Hit the key points...make the ignorati, the fashionably hip and the nouveau spiritual feel as though they're karma can be avoided by making themselves feel "bliss"...and tell them they're now enlightened. And it only costs $300! A fools game. For the fools that buy it and those that sell it.

I don't doubt that good feelings, even blissful states are experienced. But until these are credibly shown to have any relationship with enlightenment, i.e. disassociation of the self and the ego, well, I'm going to view the enlightenment claims of the Kunluners as less than credible.

Understand that I'm quite willing, indeed eager, to suspend the belief I've just described for anyone who'd show me the courtesy of providing the evidence of a Kunlun - enlightenment relationship.

xeno

I Concur!!

(Not evidence, but some theory.) If you produce nourishing pleasant 'energy', it heals the body and psyche: they are nourished and relax. When they relax, it's easier to let go. Also, the channels are more likely to open and fill, and that facilitates (but does not garuntee) Deeper Integration. Now, clearly that's not a gaurunteed detailed A-Z path (and it doesn't preclude unskilled activity along the way), but it's in a good general direction, imo.

'Enlightenment' to me is looking more and more like the pot of gold at the end of the rainbow. And I'm old enough to know that rainbows are an optical illusion, they have no end.

There may be physical enlightenments I can achieve using physical means to open up energy channels in my body. There may be psychological enlightenments I can achieve allowing me to lose petty desires and feel truly at home in the universe, most of the time. But the big E, fuggetaboutit, at least for me.

Michael

Xeno, regarding a possible mechanism for bliss leading to enlightenment, there are ecstatic traditions in most religions, though they do tend to be fringe. Spontaneous shaking, seething, writhing practices also abound in "primitive" shamanic traditions as well, including American Christianity (found predominately in arguably less educated and more tribal south). There is canonical (Pali) support to the belief that it is through progressive absorption into deeper and deeper states of bliss, ie: the jhanas (ecstatic joy), one can become enlightened. This approach is admittedly in marked contrast to the way Buddhism seems to be typically taught, at least in my limited experience, where the jhanas are considered at best a foundational practice to be skillfully abandoned for wisdom cultivating insight practice before they become addictive sensual diversions. But for more on ecstatic Buddhism, see the the many articles over at Great Western Vehicle. Note that I am not sold on any of this, just offering information on how Kunlun might operate.

Michael, in my opinion enlightenment is a very real possibility with fairly straightforward steps laid out by many accessible, living enlightened teachers. I think the taboo against speaking about personal realization of enlightenment (not to mention the linguistic paradoxical messiness of such a claim) is a hindrance to personal motivation, because it makes people think that enlightenment is a one in a million shot, when I believe there are many enlightened humans on the planet, barely noticeable as they often maintain very ordinary lives among us.

Sean

It seems people are oversimplifying the bliss concept. First of all, it is not that sensational in that it is not addictive (like shooting "junk" into your arm). It is the scintillating divine flow that is naturally felt within an open energy channel.

The recognition of this energy as our natural state is the enlightenment of those who have experienced it. The following instinctive response (like discovering a buried treasure) is to enthusiastically work to clear everything that prevents the unencumbered divine flow throughout your being.

This is not the end of the game. There are infinitely vast levels of understanding to explore beyond this.

With Kunlun you experience the Tao for what it is.

Talk is practically worthless.

Max's student Richard told me basically the exact same thing that I heard Adyashanti say on this topic.


When I was waiting outside of Max's hotel room in LA waiting for my private talk I was talking to Richard. I was in full blown Red Phoenix mode and remember I had bought a Coca Cola for myself and one for Max.

Richard goes "It's like your that Coke can and realizing your a Coke can".

Simple.

I have heard Adyashanti say the same thing in different ways. One time someone was really struggling in Satsang about enlightenment and can she ever get enlightened and Adyashanti goes "Of course, you are already enlightened. It's like if your a car saying you want to become a car. You are already that".

So, as far as I can tell, Adya and Max's essential message is the same.

Max, however, is just way,way cooler

I was drawn to the Tao by the first verse in Tao Te Ching......The Tao that can be told is not the eternal tao.........

after 40 years (since returning from military duty in SE Asia) of trying to make sense of life and listening to a zillion teachers willing to show me the Way through drugs/religious doctrine/dogma/practices of all sorts.......I have become satisfied believing there IS no easy fix, nor short cut, nor path other than my own.......and that the long way is in reality the shortest way........

In a world of 'experts' concerning everything else.....it is comforting to realize that nobody who walks this path knows any more than the guy beside him.........because there IS no guy beside him....nor in front leading the way.

Some days I feel like shit......some days I feel the oneness.......but everyday I experience something.........and that's all it is for me........experiencing life.............

anything else like dropping ego or aligning chakras or raising energy fields (all this 'to-do' stuff) is sort of like putting icing on a cake that would taste better without the sweetness.

In my minds eye I can see a group of Taoists discussing the latest Brown's game far easier than discussing the latest 'proven technique' to imortality............just my opinion.

why not a more interesting team -!? The Browns ain't goin' nowhere...

flow of what?

what channel?

How? Take a legitimate stab at this one please.

Unless its from Max. Then its worth $300? Hmmmm.....


sean,

I tried to post the following in a separate post but it attached itself to the end of this one....????

Anyhoo, comments...

Thanks for the insights/references to physical manifestations of bliss, ecstasy, etc.

I agree wholeheartedly with your comments to Michael.

I think its important to remind us that enlightenment is both a punctuated state of awareness and an extended (rest of Life ideally!) state of awareness (no less profound, but not so much Ah ha! as it is 'knowing') after the punctuated one. Its important to define which of these we're talking about when we're discussing enlightenment.

i agree with xeno for some points - what a coincidence

my own research shows me that taoists were scholars and savants, not self-sufficient idiots...

i agree with mantra 68 too, too much philosophy gets us nowhere

my own research has shown me that too much beating around the bush is counterproductive, so to speak



in the end, consider that kunlun may very well be something fit for people that prefer not to think too much

regarding shifu max as a system buster... on one way, it could be interesting... but only in a way that, when you bust a system that doesnt work, you replace it with another system... if you watch nature closely, systems are ways by which nature tries to couple condition and referrence together, to enhance survival and progress... individuality is scarce in nature... we talk mainly systems, ecosystems...

no offense ment, but this kunlun subject may interest some people around here, but not everyone... and everywhere i look, kunlun here, kunlun there... is just too much... please, wasnt tao about the middle way, not too much, not too little?

another thing, if you please. my discussions with other wise members of this community seem to agree on one point... we all seem to feel that what shifu max teaches is good, but it feels like something is so incomplete... i dont know if you know what i mean... we didnt participate on workshops and that, but from what you as practicioners made us feel about this kunlun... this feels to be the case...

i am only wondering and asking along, there is no need to be upset on that. i would really love to hear a clear point on that... up until now, matra 68, with all due respect, was very evasive... you may steal some attention with that system breaking-no theory theory, so what... there are still many that arent so convinced...

by the way, if i want to, i could have bliss 24-7
and i dont think bliss leads to liberation
liberation is liberation from all states, including bliss, isnt that what Lord Buddha said?

Little

Mantra- We'll take it from here, dude.


JJ- You should watch the Attenborough documentary on Mother Teresa. Combining bliss and scraping people off the streets in one convenient package! I don't think you can have bliss without having the desire to share it with others. The essence of real compassion.


Sean- Go tribal south!! Once I get this speaking in tongues thing down, I'm off to a pentacostal church!




Yum!

In terms of liberation, tell me this: how do you get there?

Do you know?

What stands in the way of the liberation you are referring to?

"liberation from all states" Is it that unclear that I am talking about the same thing?

Did I ever say that bliss was the end-all state?

Those who practice Kunlun experience liberation. After the chaos period of clearing out their own "stuff" the liberation (harmony) is what remains.

Until you try it (and that is up to you) you can only be speaking from the outside of an experience.

How many words can describe a roller coaster ride? It is the experience that matters. You sit down and strap in, then find out for yourself what it is. Who would rely on someone else's description of this kind of experience? Even worse are those who did and then spoke on the topic of 'roller coastering' as if they actually knew something about it.

In terms of your "research" it seems as though you haven't found many real Taoist masters. If you had, you would know that they are ALL very self-sufficient in their practice and existence.

Middle way? Here is a little perspective shift: Kunlun is a subject that is discussed in THIS forum primarily. The rest of the whole giant world is not discussing it, so it is far from dominating any water cooler conversations beyond Tao Bums.

Really effective metaphor.
You hit the sweet spot on that one.

indeed...and it isnt the whole amusement park, either

ok... at least i tried... it seems we talk paralel... no intersection

I think that the term "liberation" needs a contextual definition here. I might consider "liberation" to be liberation from samsara, reincarnation, the world of dust, the rule of mind, etc, while another person might consider it "harmony". Pretty important to be absolutely specific with all terms like this that define the goal of a practice. Important to me anyway.

I am quite curious. What does "liberation" mean in the context of this Kunlun practice?

Cheers!

Mantra, shall I understand that you choose to not answer my questions?

xenolith.

You have been taken off Cam ignore.

Let's help eachother build a better world together.

Best.

To swim in a sea of bliss? So much would i give for this.....

Get on your asses, and practice!

Kun Lun is the fast way. The narrow way. The path home.

Talk is easy. Feeling is next to impossible -especially for us males.

Take this roller coater ride. Everything is in it. There is only 'one thing' in the way of you 'getting in'.
Feel. Your heart can only be excited by it.we HAVE ALWAYS BEEN MISSING LOVE AND COMPASSION. Too many moments go by without these. Why wait? Why delay? After 20 years of search I immediately knew Kun Lun to be 'IT'. Even with Great excitement for this I was faced with resistance that nearly prevented me from walking through the door. I hope that you all offer your selves the opportunity to try, and see.


" What do you get when you fill one 'Dumb Mindelss Drone' with a sea of bliss?

Xenoth,

The answer you will get is because they where silly questions!!!



For the rest of Kunlun Cult team, why not put up a clip of your talking in tongues, getting stuck on tennis court nets, screaming orgasms, Max's clip did not convince me and since you are all sharing the BLISS share it with the non Bliss people so we can all understand better? Comon PLEASSSSSSE??? I would like to see you bending and perfiorming different Asana, and what not.

What is bliss?? Still no answers....

Winpro,

What other practices you done to compare and who was the teachers?

Put up a clip of your Bliss?

Hehe. Thanks for your kind words winpro.

Where is the Kunlun Bliss clip Cameron, Stuck to any tennis courts lately? lolol

Wu Yuen Gong, you are trolling and this is warning #1.5.

Sean

Sean,

Your right thanks for the warning ill back off!

WYG

Xeno,
You probably won't ever try this yourself so I will do my best to explain: let's see...first there is a little bit of anxiety mixed with excitement and then you sit there and wait. It is just when you don't think you can wait any longer, it starts. The movement is awkward at first but once it gets going it gets smoother as it speeds up. Then you feel yourself climbing and climbing. When you think you can't go any higher, you peak. Then it is an intense rush of energy as you drop. It is hard to find the words to describe the feeling but it has to be the closest thing to flying. As you adjust to the "flying" it changes and you begin a kind of spiraling that sends the energy through your crown center. This sensation is followed by a slower sort of inversion of self and it is like everyone around you is experiencing the same thing simultaneously. Suddenly you feel yourself whip around and it all comes to an abrupt halt which can be kind of a shock, but the shock is quickly replaced by an adrenaline rush like you have never felt before.

Not sure if any of that resonates with you but take my word, it is the most amazing ride I have ever been on.

Bear in mind, I have yet to visit other parks but Batman at Six Flags over Texas is the greatest I have ever tried. If you went and told everyone that you think so too, I would totally back you.

i don't think it's that simple. a coke can can just look in the mirror and see that it's a coke can. when i look in the mirror i see my physical body, my features. i guess its a change of perception in that you see yourself, and the world differently. but if it was as simple as you claim everyone would be enlightened (realized) already. why go through all this if its so simple?



WYG, chill.
mantra answered your question about bliss in this thread, read and stop trolling.
why would a video prove about anything? who cares if they are moving around or not? thats not the point of the practice, its a side effect. and i've never had any of those effects. i believe those effects to be blockages clearing out and maybe my practicing of yoga has opened my channels enough so that i don't need those movements, but regardless it serves no purpose to think about such matters.

the point i'm trying to make is where does the practice lead to besides feeling good. it seems as if the discussion is going in a positive route and i appreciate you all participating, and Mantra's thoughts.

i believe i am understanding, somewhat.
but the main thought i have is that its a 'do it and find out' practice, but that leaves a lot of room for error.. now i'm not saying people should be babysat but a general guideline should be set forth. if you call it the 'end all' to all paths but then lack teachings in moral cultivation, and proper direction on what to aspire to. merely saying 'become one with the tao' isn't enough since people can get easily lost in phenomena, supernatural abilities, astral traveling and never fully shed the ego

Mantra,

Care to share how long it lasted?

It has been answered many times. Bliss is what is experienced when a block or illusion releases. Its our natural state if it where not for our selfcreated limitations and illusions.

It cannot really be explained in words, you need to experience it. If you still look for explenations and definitions, look in the dictionary. If you look for true understanding and experience, do it yourself. Its that simple. Nothing to make a fuzz about.