A very long article indeed. It may not be pleasing to read, and will cause much afflictions to arise. I am no authority, do not claim to be and do not claim to understand in entirety that of Buddhism and Daoism. For anyone to claim they do understand 100% of both Daoism and Buddhism would be a false thought. For they would be realized Buddhas, and wouldn't even bother claiming anything, let alone even remain here.
One can share a bit of wisdom...maybe this article holds insights, maybe it doesn't For those it resonates with, it will be proper for them. For those in opposition, it isn't proper at all, and a waste. Regardless of one's views of proper and improper, there is an inherent understanding of what is wholesome for living beings without separation of cultivation tradition.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin



This is an in-depth warning for all those beginners out there who are amazed at powers and great abilities, for those who are looking for teachers of the Way, it is best to search for the wisdom mind, not spiritual abilities.

Spiritual Abilities do not equal Wisdom. They can simply be attained by cultivating, and any personal seeking for Spiritual Abilities is simply feeding desire, mind of separation, ego. Abilities benefit no one if there is no Wisdom, Patience and Compassion, if there is no Virtue.

In looking for a teacher, keep questions handy, if the teachings make sense to your own logic and reasoning, accept them, if not, they are not for you, but may be for others. There is no one way to teach someone, but there is one way to know what is not wholesome. Unwholesomeness is simply selfishness, greed, ignorance, arrogance, inconsideration. Anything that is not virtuous is not proper, whether it is Daoist or Buddhist. Wisdom is not hard to find, but it is hard to accept.

Keep in mind; Any cultivation school, any system, any path that has to take from an animal or any other living being, in order to advance one's cultivation or health in any way which considers the death of the animal or living being in any form of pain and discomfort, is not proper cultivation.

Would an animal seek release, there would only be certain conditions for such an act, like an animal coming to one personally, and asking for help releasing it from its mental constrictions. But the release wouldn't be through hurting the body, but by doing certain things through mind which will allow the animal to leave without pain, suffering and to be able to cultivate. That doesn't mean the mind of that animal is free from the bonds of birth and death.

If a teacher comes to you telling you your energy is wrong in many places, and that you need his help as the only way, or that of an animal, take a step back. There is no reason why you can't do it yourself, especially no reason why a Buddha or Bodhisattva can not help you learn how to help yourself. A teacher passing energy to you is only moving your own energy, helping it to vibrate higher, and charging it with another quality of energy. But it is temporary. It wears off soon. That is why one must cultivate regardless of the master's transmission.

The path of self benefit is not a proper one. Eating meat, which many beings do in order to benefit their appetite, is more of a mental habit than a need of the body. Every living being has a similar make up of elements for their physical body. Just because animals have proteins and similar elemental properties, doesn’t mean humans must eat them.

In the past I had visited my Quan Zhen Dao Shifu out in Taian, Shandong China. We discussed "outside" practices, also known as Wai Dao which are outer practices that are not of the formal, traditional school of Dao and Buddhism. Traditional here means literally anything that is not in accord with the foundation of virtue and moral set forth in Daoist and Buddhist cultivation; that which is labeled religious and philosophic, for both religion and philosophy were not seen as separate back in ancient China by high level cultivators.

She basically said that anything that is not wholesome is demonic, and will result in the students turning into ghosts, demons, demon kings and or getting stuck in their own mind of improper cultivation, and result in them entering the hell realms of their mind at death.

We spoke about killing an animal for the use of its essence, and releasing its spirit for the sake of the cultivator’s body and cultivation. She, as well as I, both agreed that it isn't wholesome. I didn't need her to tell me, I already knew..

If one's energy is "imbalanced", all they have to do is change their behavior and meditate, cultivate proper teachings. If one is sick, all they need is good concentration, and proper cultivation methods to change their sickness, mind, and be cured. It is very simple.
Also, one doesn't need the energy from an animal in order to progress. This only keeps a karmic connection with that animal, and results in strengthening one's attachments, afflictions within the cycle of birth and death.

Animal energy isn't something you want hanging around you. By you utilizing its mind and energy, it is connected to you karmically. At some point in the future, you will have to repay the animal for using its energy, and if the animal was killed for your sake, you will have to pay with your life to put an end to the karmic debt for the animals killed.

You can learn from the animal by learning its gong fu, its spiritual cultivation, but that's all. If it bites you, and transmits its blood and or saliva to you, but it was under the conditions of you cultivating at the time, then it may be beneficial. Plants, trees, animals, stars and planets, different realms can all offer their teachings in maintaining one's health, and living a wholesome life.

There is no need to kill an unwilling living being for cultivation and health purposes. Basically, any "releasing" the spirit of an animal for the sake of one's own cultivation is not proper at all. It only welcomes in demonic influences.

It is already demonic to have such thoughts. A teacher may have great abilities, but that doesn't make them wise. They may know the workings of some aspects of the mind and the universe, but that is common with cultivation. Demons can study Daoism, Buddhism. A person wearing a Buddhist and or Daoist robe doesn't make them Buddhist or Daoist. Also, demons can heal people, and perform many great and beneficial things if they want, and they can harm greatly if they want, and they do.

So for the closing of this letter to you all, please do not think killing for cultivation is proper, even if the teacher displays amazing powers.
For even further help in looking for a teacher, please refer to the Shurangama Sutra with commentary by Venerable Master Xuan Hua. Please read slowly and thoroughly the last section of the sutra called The 50 Skandha Demon States. Use this text as your guideline, and you will have no problems.
Any doubts about this Sutra, feel free to contact me personally. jing_xin_yuan@yahoo.com

Peace and Blessings.
May you all be protected by the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas of the Ten Directions.

Lin Zi Yi

Lin thank you for posting this letter. Do you know where I can find a translation of shurangama sutra?

Lin,

That was a MASTER PIECE of work! I guess this is probably the most important and perfect example of cultivation and especially for people jumping on the Kunlun band wagon as well other arts that are coming out showing abilities and getting huge amounts of attention.

Now i better go and kill a cow for dinner so i can ground my Kunlun? Take it easy all you Kunlun guys i was joking eat the whole cow i dont care....hahaha

WYG

You can check my website for two links; one of to the entire Sutra with commentary by Ven. Master Xuan Hua in adobe acrobat format. The other is a commentary of the entire Mantra by Ven. Master Xuan Hua.

http://www.freewebs.com/jingxinyuanmgc/uph...ngthedharma.htm



Peace and Blessings,
Lin




I'm not pointing any fingers but simply stating a concern. I do hope this is all wasteful and not needed. And if it is, then take the article and throw it in the garbage.

There are so many cultivation methods out there that it is difficult to tell the wholesome from the unwholesome. Though there are characteristics of what is wholesome and not, sometimes those are difficult to tell due tot he views and teachings of living beings.

Further advice, don't believe anything I say, write, or even teach. If it makes no sense to your own common sense, and logic, reasoning, it is useless.

If none of what I write makes sense to you, then please disregard it altogether. If it offends your views, arguing about it will only cause more needless arguing.

I am simply a cultivator of the Way, nothing more.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin

Lin Zi,

The article was good -- very good! I said it before, but I will say it again: You write words straight as arrows.

*deep bow*



May you keep to the Way, as I know you will. I send my blessings.

There is nothing wrong with acheiving the abilities its the way they use it to pull students in that dont understand its power and power it can creates that can harm others and i dont mean that just on a spiritual level.

thanks
WYG

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iQw6jivnuJs...feature=related

Isn't it amazing the freakiness out there !?

Wherever there is life, death is unavoidable. One feeds off the other. Why distinguish between one type of death and another?

The fact is there is no death. Yet since living beings still are attached to views of self, death exists, and they perceive suffering, experience suffering. So to distinguish that which is not in the view of unwholesome, and to not empower the views of suffering, wise distinction of that which is life and death according to living beings is adhered to.
Either way, it does matter because of cause and effect. And though many will say cause and effect are of the mind, and are not real, they themselves still fall into the mind of cause and effect, and if not, they then can come and go as they please. For those who do not hold onto views, they are free in the sense of views of freedom. But for those who have not let go of views, they are not free in that sense of views, and thus experience what they consider suffering.

There can be an argument stating life and death don't exist, and so why bother caring in certain manners as to how others die. To say life and death don't exist is to say that there is absolutely nothing, and that once the body dies, there is annihilation. Annihilation is a state, and thus also false. Caring for others is a view that assists those who still hold on to views of a self.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin

Hi Lin,

Your post was the first I decided to read in this forum, as I have just joined. Fantastic post.....I think something like this should be part of the registration process as necessary reading.....its a scary world out there with many sharletans, tricksters, and power suckers.

I have witnessed many people been mislead and families fall apart due to undevolped so called teachers leading others when they themselves can not even cope with life. One must be very carful when choosing.

Something I found very funny in India, especially in Banaras was all these westeners (I am westener too) wanting to be spiritual and doing Yogi stuff, however they seemed to have forgotten about actually looking after there hygine, many who I spoke to where ridilied with diseases but yet they believed that it was un important or something. I since then hold the understanting that one must master there physical before you look deeply into the spiritual.

If your messed up, what you see will also be messed up. ...Just an idea I have........I am only a pup.


thanks again

vitagong

Thank you for the nice article Lin.

If one person is set on the path and ten thousand feel it it useless, it will be the purest Dharma in the world.

Thanks Lin

Here is something I posted a while back in Off Topic
I think it is appropriate to this discussion.

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-1282796533661048967

Thank you for that video. In both daily living without cultivation of mind and with cultivation of mind, regard for all living beings is fundamental. Even high level cultivators, which are wise, know that regard for others is most important. It is only states of mind where one will take advantage of another for their own benefit. It is not wise, and or enlightened to overwhelm another for your benefit, or for anyone's benefit despite the reason. This is why Buddhas are Buddhas, Bodhisattvas are Bodhisattvas, Immortals of great virtue and moral are as they are. Any one can do what is considered evil, and yet not everyone will do it.
That is the basic difference. In the relative states, there is good and bad. Bad gets bad, good gets good. How you handle it is what forms your experience.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin

I don't know. I think all bets are off when you are dealing with real masters. We cannot know the laws and guidelines that apply to their reality.

Though there is a disclaimer here, I still think you are making the mistake of presuming that what you have learned about wholesomeness and unwholesomeness is a universal law.

This stuff is completely subjective and paradigmatic. What is evil in one paradigm may be acceptable or even helpful in another. This is what makes it possible to have many vastly different methods of achieving liberation.

In your tradition this may be truth. In another a different truth may exist. Not easy for the logical mind to embrace this sort of paradox.
In any case I am not arguing. Just expanding.

Lin, That was a good article and I am glad that you wrote it. The teacher I was previously studying with I found out that his Master was taking chi from bulls to fill the Dan Tien of the students. The bulls would die a week later. It seemed wrong to me.

I asked Max about this practice during a private session. He told me that this was chi stealing because you are taking life force from an object that you are not supposed to be taking it from. The bull doesn't give you permission to steal its life force. This is following the left hand path of Daoism. Max told me that there is a price to pay for that in that the person would have a slow and painful death.

Max said that the Daoist Masters that he has known that have followed the left handed path have gone crazy or died slow and painful deaths. He said that this is from taking life force from others and not doing the work yourself. He said that a lot of times the Masters who follow the left handed path will have their son or daughter die an early death so as a practice many of these Masters will only teach members outside the family.

Max told me that in the old days lots of Masters did this because it was a matter of life or death and that they had to protect their family and temples but he said that he has never seen anyone reach enlightenment by taking life force from another.

He told me that you need to have patience to do the work yourself and mentioned that Kunlun was designed for you to do it yourself so you don't have to take it from something outside yourself.

Craig

That is good to hear. I am relieved to hear such things come from Max Shifu. And what he says here is true indeed.

I don't have any traditions to follow. Cultivation in general reveals answers. It only depends on which state we attach to in order to interpret what arises. Cultivation also teaches not to attach to states, therefore regarding something as proper and improper can lead to attachment to states unless it is used for specific functions, consciously.

Peace,
Lin

Craig

But Max follows the Left hand path also and eats meat!! HMM Did max tell you he is from the left hand path cause i mentioned this months ago but no one took notice glad you brought it up?

Does kunlun use females to help them get there re-enlightment so is that considered chi stealing???

So if the master sucked the life force out of another human being instead of the bulls, would you still have the same opinion brother? Out of curiosity, are you more interested in obtaining power or liberation?



Sounds a lot like moral relativism Darebak.



I think you may have actually stumbled upon the solution. Stop relying on the logical mind to rationalize what is right and wrong and trust your feelings/instincts.

on second thought I am just gonna clam up. Cheers.

Totally right there Wisdom has no rational -it just is.

There are many instances in the YiJing where eating meat, shhooting game , hunting, cooking meat etc... are used as indications of well-being and health.

This is just one more instance where Taoists and Buddhists differ.
Taoists look to life [u]for answers in the here and now... Buddhists seem to want to avoid what makes them uncomfortible and that which is not simplified into "good/bad " practice....

There is a time to kill and a time to heal...

I say- Be what you must be to further LIFE as the time dictates...Furthering your efforts for pie in the sky status as a spirit leaves me laughing at the foolish folly we humans foist upon ourselves and others...Live as you see fit -"doing death" is just life transfering itself place to place... there is no inherent value in merit or good will... there is value in excepting the reality of this world and the razors' edge we walk to be beings that are both integral and transcendant...

I have been vegitarian and understand its' lure. But it has no inherent value over carnivorous behaviors.

"The evil that is in the world always comes of ignorance, and good intentions may do as much harm as malevolence, if they lack understanding. On the whole men are more good than bad; that, however, isn't the real point. But they are more or less ignorant, and it is this that we call vice or virtue; the most incorrigible vice being that of an ignorance which fancies it knows everything and therefore claims for itself the right to kill. There can be no true goodness, nor true love, without the utmost clear-sightedness. "

Albert Camus - The Plague

Funny thing is I never seen a Buddhist text describe how to avoid things. On the contrary, Buddhist cultivation is to realize one's causes and conditions, and chang ethem, not avoid them. It is unfortunate there have been many ignorant famous Buddhist cultivators teaching incorrect things out there in history.

Things like you state above require good physical stamina, such as shooting game, and hunting. If you can do these things, you are probably in good health already and are making a lot of money from that strong body and good health. Eating meat and cooking meat...well, back in the day, not many people had a lot of money, especially in China. Chinese people were not always rich, even during the Tang Dynasty. So eating meat was a symbol of having a lot of money, as is today. The more expensive the meat you buy, the more important you are seen.

Today in China, the price of meat has risen a lot. But people still buy it so they don't look poor to their friends. They laugh at you if you are vegetarian, saying you are just too poor to buy meat. They mock you if you buy less expensive clothing, saying you are too old fashioned and not in with modern times, as well as too poor, a country hick, etc. And if you are Chinese, wearing Chinese clothing, you are mocked at 10 times worst, and viewed as a crazy person, out of touch with modern fashion and ways of the world. People never leave you alone in the streets.

The difference with Buddhist and Daoist thought is that regardless of what conditions dictate, Buddhists realize how to change them and why its not good to stay in the flow of the ups and downs without consciously knowing the cause and effects of things. But then again, even though Daoists, some, may follow the Yi Jing, they do know that changing the conditions and causes are very important. They just don't sit back and for the sake of saying the Yi Jing is correct, do nothing about the prediction they received.

---

Generally speaking:

Lastly, just because a Daoist does something, doesn't make it right. We can't always look at the label DAO and assume its all natural and wonderful. Just because they believe in something doesn't make their belief wholesome. I've seen Daoist monks smoking cigarettes right on their temple grounds. The head monk told me its unfortunate that they are not cultivating properly, and smoking.
But if you show the picture of the Daoist Monks smoking to westerners, they'll say, "Look, Look, he's smoking, he's a Daoist! It must be okay to smoke!".

There are Buddhist monks who smoke int he Theravada Tradition saying its not breaking the precepts, and that its not an attachment. Its all Garbage what they say, yet people buy into it ignorantly.


Meat was a status symbol in history, and still is today. Thus its display of having money and health integrated in the Yi Jing.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin

hi lin, these days am reading again dalai lama's autobiography, where he speaks about the clash between the Chinese and Tibetan civilisations... i think this is the same with this topic... the Chinese seem to be more a-moral than the Tibetan, at least thru the Dalai Lama's lenses.
the doctrine of nonperpetuation of violence is more Tibetan than Chinese
if we stand aside and just contemplate the two different cultures, it is just something incredible

on one thing i agree with your detractors: anyway we put it, wether we eat rice or apples or steak or bull energy... we still eat life... vegetal life is for some people the most sensitive and affectionate they could ever find, i remember my aunt and her flowers, and the garden... even when we drink water, there is much microorganism life that is killed inside our stomach... even when we wash away the dirt of the day taking a hot shower...

how could we surpass this, lin?

Well, though killing is killing, the consciousness of the living being does play a role in the karma we create
through killing. For instance, if the living being in its body has no sensation of emotional pain and suffering, then when they are physically killed, they will not actually feel a physical pain and thus not attach so much to the body when dying. In that respect, the killing of incalculable microorganisms isn't has heavy as that of killing a much larger, and more physically sensitive being. Also, not intentionally killing them, with concentrated emotion intended towards them, changes a bit of the karma. If in your heart/mind you are not looking to kill them, because of their physical make up and conditions of the mind, the karma isn't that heavy.

If you want, which I do as well, keep in your mind an intention to let them know that you are about to drink them, and before you drink the water wait a moment to let them adjust to that realization, though their physical make up doesn't allow for much of that function because of their karma, it is a nice deed to do, and shows consideration for the living beings. In that sense, though emotionally they can't pick it up, they will feel uplifted without discriminating the feeling like other living beings do.



Peace,
Lin

please lin, i do understand your point...
but did you learn about the experiments that were done years and years ago, connecting a plant to EEG and EKG, and aplying pressure, tearing the leafs etc ?? these experiments have been done by both the US and Russia... it's no bogus, they are real...and you can google a lot on it.., i may reccomend a book on it: the secret life of plants by peter tompkins and christopher bird... plants are very sensitive and very involved in practices of shamans and telepathy... of course they feel...

well, the dali lama eats meet every second day and says it's okay to kill animals for food and medicine. he says people should eat less meat and respect and care for animals, but that there is no need to take the buddha's rule on non-killng to extremes... it seems clear that there are many different opinions among buddhists- and the buddha did stop short at condemning meat eating. i think it comes down to intention and balance... to say that people are going to hell for eating meat or using animals for medical purposes is fanaticism. it is about personal choice, leave judgement to the buddhas, enlightened masters or god, not people with a religious agenda... my two cents

...kind of an interesting story with the dali lama... after he was ill with hepatitis, his doctors and nutritionist advised him to eat some meat. i guess he followed the 'eat right 4 your blood type diet' which says that people with 'o' and 'b' blood types need to eat meat and fish for optimal health. this makes sense since people have been eating fish and meat for millions of years.

I agree plants feel.. one hundred percent agree. They even scream when being pulled from the ground, and chopped up.

Well, there is a a bit of an over sight with how people have translated what the Buddha meant by not eat meat. There are certain outcomes that will be for eating meat. Of course conditions must be considered. Yet, karma is karma, and they can be heavier and or lighter than other manners of karma.

When the Buddha was in the world, because some of his disciples lived on barren land, and growing vegetables was not possible, he said, "I permit the bhikshus to eat 5 kinds of pure meat. This meat is a transformation by my spiritual powers and compassion. It has no life force. You Brahmans live in barren land where vegetables do not grow. So I assisted you with my powers and compassion. What you eat that tastes like meat, is said to be meat, but it isn't. After my extinction, how can those who eat the flesh of living beings be called the disciples of Shakya... You should know that these people who when their retribution ends, they are bound to sink into the seas of birth and death. They are not disciples of the Buddha. Such people as these kill and eat one another in a never-ending cycle, how can such people transcend the triple realm?"

5 types of meat
..."Flesh of an animal that I did not see killed, flesh of an animal that I did not hear killed, flesh of an animal that I am sure was not killed for my sake, flesh from an animal that died by itself, flesh that is the leaving of an animal after birds have scavenged. This meat is a transformation of brought into being by my spiritual powers, it has no life force..."

-- The above quote is taken from the Four Instructions on Purity and commentary by Ven. Master Xuan Hua.

The flesh is not from living creatures, no consciousness no temperature, no breath. The first 3 are according to the Buddha not seeing the animal getting killed, not hearing the animal getting killed and an animal not killed for his sake as an offering to him to eat. The last two means an animal that died without the help of other people or animals, and flesh that was not eaten by birds after they have eaten.
Now since the Buddha was a human at one point, and went into Nirvana, his Buddha nature is the same as every living being. That means the 5 types of meat are not possible to be eaten now because all beings have the Buddha Nature, and thus the Buddha indeed hears an animal being killed, sees an animal being killed, receives an animal as an offering from others. An animal which dies by itself is that which has no influence to do so. Can anyone find one? Animals that have died and eaten by scavenging birds with leftovers to spare...can anyone find those?

He said the above quoted words specifically because killing, or aiding the killing of living beings has its inevitable outcomes. Does anyone know about the hells? They are of the minds of living beings, created by them and experienced by them.

Not eating meat isn't about religious fanaticism. Its about realizing the results of one's actions and choosing not to partake in those actions. What is funny is that which is not of the norm, and left to the side is seen as religious fanaticism. Desires seem to control what we think about right and wrong. Right and wrong are basic things that all beings know, but because of the education they receive in the world, they become confused.


On bloodtpes and body types, One gets a body due to karma and all the conditions of that body are expressions of the manners of karma, retribution, one will under go for that life time. BUT if they work to change their habits, views and life style, it doesn't matter what kind of body they have, they can change its structure, make up and not have to live with certain"problems and needy conditions". So if one has a blood type that dr.s say must have meat, change the mind, change habits, and you wont need to eat meat. Because the body has conditions for it, doesn't make it right. The body is subject to mind and views. therefor change the mind and views, and the body transforms as well.

wow... that earthlings film really hurt...

When we treat all life with respect then what we do to feed ourselves has no inherant value- when we respect our own lives we eat in a healthy way that for most will enclude eating meat as our circumstances dictate, for healthy protines and energy.

Most of us probably do not eat as much meat as the average American does and far more than the average Tibetan. The whole history of Asian meat-eaters I found pretty spurious and out of context. The Chinese had too many famines to claim any semblance of control, everyone just ate whatever whenever they could -as many still do as in other cultures.

I have seen the faces of hungry people in Asia, and N.America, I have not always had a good diet due to poverty. Not all Amereicans are rich pigs many of us do not live as Manderines...

The inequities of life enclude getting eaten for many life forms. Just because I can empathize with those being eaten; can I claim my abhorance to the killing as a reason for me to avoid the sometimes bitter experiences my bodys' energy requirements lead me into??? For many this is the case. I have been a vegitarian. The first time when I was 4- which lasted 4 months- in 1958, NYC was not vegetarian -friendly...Now I accept the pain as but one of many in this world of strife and hunger...
How I get my energy is far less important to me than how I use it.

I do not believe that all life is suffering - I believe life is what we make of it.
Some of the cruelest activities ever committed (the Rape of Nanking for instance), were perpetrated by supposedly devout Buddhists...Or were all of those bastards Shintoists?

The freaking Christian crusades were pepetrated by devout Christians etc etc...Any "holier than thou" line of philosophical rant is just not for me...
I say eat the meat you are comfortable eating and thank the spirit within the creature you eat for giving you the energy to go on about yr bidness...

I have a joke. here it is----A vegetarian and a meat-eater get into a fight. Oh wait, vegetarians are non-violent, so the vegetarian just gets his ass kicked.

Anyone of these could kick your ass

VEGETARIAN SPORTS PERSONALITIES

" B J Armstrong (US Basketball star)
" Al Beckles (body builder)
" Sorya Bonali (ice skater)
" Les Brown (veteran runner)
" Peter Burwash (tennis)
" Andreas Cahling (body builder)
" Chris Campbell (1980 world champion wrestler)
" Joanna Conway (ice skater)
" Sylvia Cranston (triathlete)
" Sally Eastall (Marathon runner - UK No 2, vegan)
" Di Edwards (runner, Olympic semi-finalist)
" Cory Everson (bodybuilder, Ms Olympia 6 times)
" Katie Fitzgibbon (marathon runner)
" Clare Francis (sailer)
" Louis Freitas (body builder)
" Carol Gould (marathon runner)
" Sammy Green (runner)
" Sally Hibberd (British Women's Mountain Bike Champion)
" Sharon Hounsell (Miss Wales Bodybuilding Champion)
" Desmond Howard (formerly w/Washington Redskins, now w/Jacksonville Jaguars) Source: PETA mailer
" Roger Hughes (Welsh National Ski Champion)
" David Johnson (BAA coach)
" Kathy Johnson (Olympic Gymnast)
" Alan Jones (British ski jumper)
Scott Jurek ( Marathoner) (Vegan)
" Jack LaLaine (Fitness guru) (vegan)
" Tony LaRussa (Coach of Oakland Athletics) Source: PETA, Animals Agenda, Animals Voice, Veg Times, others
" Judy Leden (British, European & World Hang Gliding champion)
" Marv Levey (Buffalo Bills Coach)
" Carl Lewis (sprinter - vegan)
" Jutta Müller (multiple Windsurfing World Cup Champion) Source: Flutlicht 95/6/18 on Südwest 3 (German TV program)
" Jack Maitland (triathlete and fell runner)
" Kirsty McDermott (runner)
" Lindford McFarquar (body builder)
" Robert Millar (cyclist)
" Monika Montsho (weightlifter, 2 x runnerup GB Championships 60kg, NW woman weightlifter of the year 1991)
" Edwin Moses
" Paavo Nurmi
" Dave Scott (five time winner of the Ironman Triathlon) (vegan) "The New Laurel's Kitchen" cookbook
" Lucy Stephens (triathlete - vegan)
" Kirsty Wade (runner)

haha

Well, a vegetarian that is not cultivating proper views would get their butt kicked.. haha


Why is it said life is suffering? Because living beings get stuck in their views and states, and do not know the causes of their experiences. This suffering... getting pulled in happiness, and then the next minute sadness. Having arguments with people, being with people whom you do not like... having views of like and dislike... all of these and more add to confusion. To not know one's causes and conditions just keeps one riding up and down on the waves of their own influence.

Peace,
Lin

Just my 2 cents, for instance all the Cultivation methods that is in question do or was created from a Religous people, clan, temple etc. So here is a few things one should ponder that is if you care about cultures, ethics, secrets, dogma or not!

Why was it kept secret?
Why only in a relgious order?
Why not to the public?
What was the rules and laws for skills that was kept in those religions?
Can it benifit outsiders without those beliefs?
Is it fit for outsiders?
Can different religious energy methods be mixed?

These are somethings that is important in what you are doing!

WYG

I changed the name of this article. It is now called "Questioning the Path"

obviously...lol

Peace and Blessings,
Lin

OOoo, Oooo can I get on the soap box now? Thanks here I go:


Taoist, Buddhist, whatever. If you can't agree that minimizing suffering is good then you've got a problem.

Those seeking ..(enlightenment?!) are in tiny minority, both here and in the East. In the East there's traditions, temples and clearer paths that don't exist here in the West. There's no monastery to walk to, Buddhist or Taoist. Nor are we any of Taoists in the manner any religious taoist would agree.

My point??? We want something, we don't want to be suckers or misled, we want to help beginners and learn something valuable and walk a real path. Its harder in the West. But we have advantages too. We ask questions, we try things out, we talk to each other without going to war(mostly).

Western teachers tend to synthesis the best of different traditions and hand them to us asking only that we practice. But is synthesis the right way? Do we get handed things too easily? Not practice enough?

Kunlun might be a dead end, created by a phony. Thats what we're practicing to find out. Maybe its a faster way to open channels and accomplish completeness. We'll see. There's people on that route and they're leaving crumbs and reports. The truth will be known. Not through argument, but the old fashioned Buddhist way(borrowed by the scientific method). Think it through, without prejudices or bias.

We're not going to be on the same path, but hopefully we're heading slowly toward the same destination. The person obsessively screaming insults may be on a higher path, but I can't help but think there negativity is causing them to slide down.

Leading by example, with words and actions that reflect a deep practice is where the juice ultimately comes from.


leave sweaty soap box to next person, head for beer


Michael

Very nice! I'll yield my time on the soapbox to you everytime .

AugustLeo

I don't get it...

What are we soapboxing?

You would...... if you were the one on the soapbox

The idea of minimizing suffering is a good one. Now, we can all attain eyes to see the cause and outcomes without having to do something. It just takes cultivation.

So, an idea is good, but overall outcome..longterm and short term, must be considered. It may feel good for now, but in the end may not help at all... lol

Peace and Blessings,
Lin

If I might chip in to this discussion, one has to separate between ideas about reality and reality itself.

Lins post is one of the best I have read on this forum. But there is a danger in what he writes, as it may create a dogmatic view of what is "right" and "wrong" related to practice.

At one point in my life I was in a huge moral and existetial dilemma, and went to a reterat to ask my master for advice. His answer to my question made my mind go totally silent.
I asked him if a particular choice I was confronted with would create bad Karma, and feeling both embarassed to sit there and bother him with it, and desparate for direction, I was in a state of total uproar.
He said that he could not answer the question related to Karma. It was based on faith, and related to religion, and not direct experience. Forget about karma, and ask yourself what is right.

My point is that whatever you do, either eating meat, hurting someone, or doing "left handed" practice, is all related to intention. It is inent that comes first, and the consequences of your actions are closely related to that first mover.

In my experience, I cannot but help hurting, killing, creating suffering. Its unavoidable.
It's impossible not to, and you create even more suffering if you attempt to avoid life, and condemning yourself for it. But you can minimize it. Most suffering in the modern western world is made through having a bad conscience, or compensating for it all the time.

The only way to be without these constraints is to have direct insight, pranja wisdom, and be a realized sage. And that is further down the line for me atleast =)

What we all CAN do is seeing what is necessary and what is avoidable. And if something is necessary, just do it. And if you do practice eating meat, or hurting someone, or doing a practice, make a blessing out of it. Do it gracefully, seeing the inherent interconnection between you, what you do and the object, person or situation you are in (no pun intended).

Nature can teach us how to live. If we spend time in nature, like most of the ancient founders of Daoism and other spiritual traditions did, they opened to the inherent grace in all actions in Nature. A Tsunami does not have bad karma, its just the ocean moving.
Mankind is also basically like this.
The only thing separating us from the natural state is our state of intention, and this has both energetic, pragmatic and spiritual causes and consequences. Purify and lessen intention, and whatever practice you do will reveal its inherent quality or lack thereof.

In whatever practice we have, it should be done from an open heart. Then all actions will be in the form of a blessing, or finally like a symbol, or a prayer.

just my 2 Kroner

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I agree with you Hagar.on the Dogmatism fact..and yet anything can be taken dogmatically. People will take it, or anything to be dogmatic teachings...lol and they have haha
Not saying you do, its just that anything that is believed in , can be taken without questioning.

It just so happens that I don't blindly take anything to be fact without investigating it myself. Also, one doesn't have to read a teaching to know the truth of that teaching. What I have written is not taken directly from any text, any beliefs, any ideas. Yet it is written in meaning in various sutras.

I just hope that people start asking questions.

I posted some things on the Foundation forum and received replies like "... the masters taking lives of bulls are Arhats...have left the cycle of birth and death and when they kill the bulls they are doing the same thing for them..."

Talk like this is ridiculous! No one, not even the Buddhas and Bodhisattvas can take a life and make someone end the cycle of birth and death. If they could, they would, but they can't ..lol A disciple of the Buddhas is never to kill anything for any reason. Those people killing bulls are simply not Buddhist. They may wear clothing that resembles Buddhist monks, but they are surely not authentic, disciples of the Buddha.

This is what I mean by people taking anything and simply believing it to be fact without questioning. If people don't believe anything I say, then don't just oppose, question, investigate your mind, and find the truth. I don't write to preach. My goal is to make people uncomfortable.


So a word of advice, and thank you Hagar for pointing it out overall.... Don't believe anything anyone tells you, Not even the Buddhas....Question them, personally investigate your mind through meditation and contemplation...then and only then will you find the truth.
Blind faith was never part of Buddhism, glad for that, yet living beings are living beings...they are subject to their own afflictions, mind. They can take a good thing and turn it into a bad thing.


I could have made this post much simpler...: there is an inherent knowing of what is proper and what isn't. If doing what is proper benefits people without them having to know that it does good, its just believed, then that dogmatic practice is great. It is people that label things and get stuck to those labels. They label something and then disregard it for what its worth because of that label.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin

:Quote "There is an inherent knowing of what is proper and what isn't."
I agree with the wonderful simplicity of this statement, I believe if our intention is for benifit of all and ourselves our actions will be correct.This is simple.If this truth resides whithin us and is the foundation of our actions such things as instruction & dogma,will appear for what they really are.

I firmly believe all of us inherently know what is correct,if we don't or are in a state of confusion the application of the simple adage "Do unto others as you would have them do unto you"soon clears the way.
Perhaps my view is too simplistic, but its the only conclusion that has ever made sense and regardless of how I apply it,whatever the scenerio,it remains that if our intention is for the benefit of others and ourselves we accord with the way of heaven.

Thanks Hagar -as usual yr words rang true for me...

many good thoughts on this thread from many ways of life and paths to walk...
right wrong proper improper the whole good-bad aspect of these views is not how I see the Middle Way -

I see it as valueless because it is inherent in all things and gives them no preference.

What is IS - we can work on ourselves to transcend our animal natures -or we can cultivate a fuller unity of our entire nature as both spiritual and mortal... animal, lower basic realms of being -whatever as well as our higher selves, one without the other is an empty life that has avoided challanges inherent in a complete biology and spirit.--

I am not only a being of spirit and light -I am a being of natural desires and thirsts and any refinement there of - Life is a good thing to savor with gusto... And I for one plan to leave any non-attachment regime for a later date, though it does have a strong allure for me already... I do not have much of any consumerism to speak of anyway- giving up things that I don't relish is easy, I will never strive to end my deep appreciation and sensual delight in being alive. I have spent many hours over many years in meditation to bring me perspective and peace of mind.

Lin - You say yr intention was to make people uncomfortable - is this not creating suffering (albeit on a small scale)...

Feel what you will for the suffering in the world -compassion is the core of spiritual meaning for me... but I will live as full a life as I possibly can -not in a materialistic sense but in an experiential way...And at any one time the actions I take at one stage of my life will be abhorant to the man I was -or am at another time of my life...

I do not believe we all have the same view of proper and improper -nor do I think that if we did that it would be a good thing-some sort of cosmic truth that tells us what is right and wrong -
the right and wrong of things is dictated more by cercumstance than intent -
once you know the right and wrong of things (which any trained animal can do) -

Then it is will and knowledge that creates intent - Intent based on ignorance can be disasterous -good intentions can be misapplyed and dire conciquences may result...

So for me intent is ephimeral without the strength it takes to just live day by day -With love in your heart for all of life and the courage it takes to live in this dangerous world...eating whatever you can when you can -as most have lived through out the ages...

Counting our blessings bite by savory bite...

haha the uncomfortable feeling of putting down afflictions is bliss...hahaha