Hello all.
I heard there is a 3'rd level mopai wich is one of the western students of "John Chang" among Kosta and Andreas.I think his name is Jim.I am extremley interested in finding him.So if someone knows it or how to contact him please help me.

Cheers,
Radu

Hi Radu,

If you had read all the posts in that forum regarding this topic I doubt you would be here asking this question. This system is now well and truelly closed its very clearly stated in both forums and in the latest video....my personal opinion is that it is very disrespectfull and dishonest to pursure this. If it was for you then you would have already.

They clearly want to be left in peace, and its clear that all the info out there was never to have been in public domain to begin with. Please consider removing your request, and letting it all rest.

Ok vitagong. I will remove my post.But just for your knowledge, the system is not so closed for those who seek.

Hi Radu,

I entertain the same degree of interest in the teachings of John Chang as you seem to, as they appear to be a genuine tradition of ascension that may actually work, yet not of the left-hand path as the other well known alternative is. If you manage to contact Jim, please let me know by PM, as I would be interested in learning the lower levels and doing some experimentation for myself also.

Don't let others bully you on what you can and cannot post - everyone is entitled to their views, beliefs, positions etc.,. and none can justify the bashing of their opinions over the heads of others.

Good luck in your journey along the path.

In kind regards,

Adam.

Welcome to the Tao Bums, Radu. I wasn't aware of any closed subjects here. Is there a list?

I'm interested in every bit of Taoist mystical information I can get my grubby little hands on. So unless Sean says otherwise please feel free to post what you want.

Hmm... that is interesting! What do you know about him? The problem is, an orthadox student will not teach what he knows outside of traditional protocol and hierarchy - thus, he will not share what he knows with any of us - we are outside the circle.

I respect the above view, but do not accept it. I take the view that information, like that which can be found in an academic institution is there for the taking by those capable of making use of it. Most people will not be able to do anything with spiritual information - meditative practices - it is just takes too much work - it is beyond them. There is no magic bullet - you only get out what you put in, and very few have the discipline. Yet, some practices are more efficient than others, that is what I seek. That is the nature of applied science also, efficiency of outcome - of cause and effect; and indeed, that which transcends cause and effect in the higher sciences of alchemy.

In kind regards,

Adam.

well... welcome to taobums in any case.

Thank you.Well Sean says that it is dangerous so I think I will stop posting about this subject on the forum.
I'd be interested in meeting him though.
Good luck to you all in achieving what you want.

I can not resist, Adam

considering that there is a master/student relationship between John Chang and David you either have to change your idea about the one or the other... but maybe they can coexist?



Harry

Hi Harry,

No need to resist, my friend - I am not one to take offence at contrary ideas, opinions or positions. Please feel free to make your implications more explicit, I would love to talk them out!

Are you saying that if I accept the efficiency of John Chang's teachings, then I need also accept the efficiency of David's teachings; and if that were so, then it follows the I must accept the master / student relationship as part of those teachings? In any case, any similar argument leading to the same or a dissimilar conclusion is composed of a number of propositions that I do not see the need to be necessarily conjoined to one another. We can accept things about John Chang or his teachings that do not have a necessary implication for David and his teachings or the model in which they are offered.

I can accept all sorts of theses in physics while rejecting so many others, least of all the models, basic assumptions or authors or leading proponents who argue for them. Your a doctor right? You know how complex the real world is - there are very few simple answers in the complex world system in which we currently find ourselves. I'm not a nihilist, suggesting it all just comes down to personal opinion, cultural context and point of view - but I take little for granted either.

In kind regards,

Adam.

>>No need to resist, my friend - I am not one to take offence at contrary ideas, opinions or positions. Please feel free to make your implications more explicit, I would love to talk them out! <<

Cool. I LOVE that.



I get your point. What I mean is pretty simple actually: IF there is a master/student relationship between John Chang & David (you referred to him by: "the left-hand path as the other well known alternative is") - and I assume you do not vote for "left-hand", maybe clearly considering it a "false path" - THEN I have to ask: why should a genuine "right" path master deal positively with a "non-genuine" student (which your assumption includes I assume)? Now: I do not want to get too much into the question of: "can we actually say that this is clearly a left-hand path or not", because honestly (and once again I assume): what do we actually know in order to be able to label it like that?

Further one thing that strikes me is: IF one considers someone genuine, why then would one want to go contra their wishes? Including teaching and accepting the teaching from someone who does not have the permission of his master? Not that I say that I do not understand the wish for it. I very much understand it, but following would be non-genuine towards a considered genuine person, AND: if we believe what John Chang, the genuine one, says, it would be pretty foolish as well!

>>Your a doctor right?<<

Psssssssssst. Don't tell anyone And indeed: The world is very complex and because of that I feel myself in an awkward position to label or judge anything outside my level of understanding.

Thankx for the exchange, Adam



Harry

Sifu John & Other Long Lasting Members of the Mo-Pai are upset with David.Somehow the Story reach back to John Chang that David took people their for Money like a Tour Guide.

This is why the relationship is not existing anymore & very strained. Mopai teachings are closed 100% and alternative routes must be found.

So please dont be fooled. There is no deep student relationship between Them or Blessings. Shifu is appalled at the prices david has been charging people. His Lineage is wrong to charge money & it is Illegal to pay for entry into heaven becos it wont work

1 More thing. There is an American student of Shifu who reach level 3 technically. But remember level 2b is really level 3. This was just to stop confusion among readers. There is no doubt about this mans curent level & power. Please dont dishonour Him & Shifu John by speading False stoies about his Curent Level and other cheap shot.

Regards,

It is true that Mopai is closed 100% for non-chinese. But bear in mind that John Chang still need to find a sucessor and for obvious reason i doubt it is any of his current students.

edit : i see my post could be perceived not the way i intended to. all i meant is that MoPai is closed except for the future sucessor who might or might not be born yet.

So. Where do you take that from? Are you a student of Master John Chang?



Harry

Does someone have to die before *you people take this stuff seriously? I am disgusted by the lack of respect for vows and tradition here. And you wonder why real masters are hesitant to teach westerners... The arrogance is unbelievable. Check yourself before you wreck yourself.

*you people=those who would seek these methods without the blessing of the Pai.

hi Darebak, i am just curious who are you directing to ? To all those who are still looking for John Chang and Jim ? If yes then i agree completely. Power do attract worms like a rotten carcass.

Hi Harry,

That is a good question! Why did I label that tradition a left-hand path? Here is an edited PM I just wrote to some other in which I share my thoughts on "that" and a very brief outline of my reasoning coming to that conclusion. I could expand on it and write a detailed essay with arguments and counter arguments, but I'm too tired right now, so we will do it more informally as an unfolding dialogue.

Now, some of the things I will say are not in an academic style of intellectual detachment, as it was originally a private message and not an essay. Also, I completely accept the possibility of my being entirely wrong, thus, some or all of the assumptions I build on, may be false; hence, my arguments may be unsound - but I believe they are valid at least.

A brief clarification on beliefs, truth and hypotheses. I am a philosopher by training, so I work with applied logic. Being a student of mysticism - the meditative arts of trans-rational, direct intuitive realisation - I also work with intuition; thus, making use of both an empiricist and rationalist epistemology. We can say a belief counts as knowledge, if it is a justified true belief. So we just need a warrant for that belief - some support. That may be evidential support - inductive - or a purely logical one, as in deductive arguments. Or of course transcending those linear constructs, we may directly intuit - yet, these intuitions are often vague, or incomplete, and we may then infer to various conclusions with the use of deductive or inductive support which may or may not be valid or sound. So the whole thing is very complex and there are a great many opportunities to make mistakes and get it all wrong. Yet, knowledge is acknowledged to be fallible, and is really just working hypotheses until we find further support to justify and confirm it, or falsify it and reject that hypothesis. Hence, the whole thing is very fluid and far from set in stone. Ok, with that ramble on epistemology out of the way, we can take a look at my current suspicions.

Finally, I do not wish to offend anyone nor am I personally attacking any individual - this is not personal - it exists, for the sake of discussion, purely at the level of abstract ideas on the intellectual plane. Yet of course, the factual accuracy - or lack thereof - of the propositions have real world consequences, thus, I feel this is an important debate.

I responded to the suggestion that I ought to seek David out, instead of Jim, if I were looking for Mo Pai teachings or their equivalent. This is what I said in return.

Nice to hear from you! The first problem with David, as I see it, is the amount of money he charges; this is both practical and ethical. At a low level, the initial basic teachings are not too much - a few thousand dollars; yet, the higher teachings, according to Sean’s recent posts, with his masters involve tens of thousands of dollars - David has spent hundreds. The second prima facie problem, as it appears to me is this: if you read some of the stuff on the foundation forum, you will see the masters carry out practices that make me think David's tradition - which is different, yet related to Mo Pai - is one of the very few authentic left-hand paths. The left-hand path is defined as the path of service to self – or ego, its development and empowerment. This may be contrasted with the a traditional right-hand path like Buddhism, Dzogchen and others, where one seeks to transcend the dualistic split of the sense of separate self and all drives towards ego empowerment – as this simply reinforces the sense of separation – the un-enlightened mind. According to foundation forum entries, the masters in David's tradition use living animals to draw out their life-force and take it into themselves for personal healing and energetic work – fill up the dan tien (spelling?). In doing so, they apparently cause the animals great suffering and psychological trauma and death - they literally such it out like a vampire. As I read the account, these are people with no concern or consciousness of the suffering or experiences of other living creatures - evidently they take from others for their own personal gain. In my experience in higher-consciousness, such behaviours are of pure ego-consciousness. As it seems to me, those who have even partially transcended the apparent dualistic split could not so callously suck the life out of another creature (in many cases, multiple animals – and as an apparent standard practice), ignoring the creatures suffering for their own personal gain. This is classic left-hand practices and behaviours towards others. One might say they do the same to their students also, with the exorbitant financial fees that suck the monetary life out of the student.

In conclusion, I believe David's masters are legit and very powerful. However, to me, it very much looks like they are of a very rare living linage of left-hand practitioners - those of the dark-brotherhood. Very interesting indeed! According to Sean, David is even going to start charging a membership fee for being part of the foundation forum - I mean really, how uncharitable is that!?! Those guys are clearly obsessed with milking this thing for all it's worth!

So that is a very, very brief and rough outline of my pre-reflective thoughts on this mater :-)

In kind regards,

Adam.

This is why it is best to let it rest.....this topic always ends up heading this way and it makes my stomach churn every time. People claiming they want to evolve and cultivate themselves and at the same time stepping on and gossipping about others to reach there....that’s before we even look at how they are willing to bypass the oaths and wishes of the very holders themselves, its dishonest, disrespectful, deceitful and totally selfish.

It is great to see that some people are actually beginning to see the lack of respect and dishonesty that has been going on when discussing this topic. You can also see by looking thru the posts which people would actually be accepted by such a teacher and which wouldn’t, its not that some people are bad, its just level of awareness of a bigger picture than themselves. It takes time for some, sometimes lifetimes.

Please note that I am not defending any person, however I am defending the right for privacy. How about we start a thread about your family and start writing and commenting about what our interpretation of you is based on what other people have written about you and what you have written....

So far I have been called a bully, and some other comment made suggesting that I said this is a closed subject.......well each to there own interpretation, this is how it happens and before you know it people will start saying that I am a raving lunatic who sends people hate mail.

Please note that my comments are by no means to Defend David. I am not a student of David nor interested in what he offers or teaches. That is my right and I have my own reasons.

Please try to move on and find YOUR way, the information your looking for can not by Bought$$$ nor can anyone be manipulated or tricked into giving it to you, time to make peace with this and move on.

Radu, I see you have decided to repost your original post.

I find it interesting how you only seem to see what you want to see, I know this because you you have said nothing about how this Person also in the same post where this came from totally disgraced himeself by saying disrespectful things about his teacher and un neccessary things about his brothers.

You then also fail to mention the response to this and also the information about how this person had been giving incorrect teachings and the dangers involved.

Can you not see it......its all yuk. And you want to learn from this person.

Good day, Adam,

While my original focus of study was sociology, philosophy was unfortunately only a secondary subject and I am missing the level of expressibility in language and way of thinking in that area as you do. But here it goes:

First of all most know that I am currently a student of David. Everybody sure thinks: "Hey. This guy naturally has to defend his teacher." OR "It simply is not possible for him to even let room for the idea he is following a "dark" path" ---- all just simple "protective mechanisms" to keep up the integrity of ones own personality & identitiy...

Let me say: Yep. I would argue wrongly if I were to see bits of it are not true. BUT: I am still thinking about things, that is the reason I am asking and questioning, you as well as my teacher. And David as my teacher responds. Then I have to weigh what others say to what my teacher says and it is up to me to decide which words I "think" to be more accurate.

Now. I personally feel that as long as we are not even close to the level of these masters it is not reasonable to actually judge them or their deeds. It is not the same level but a little like talking about the daily deeds of a politician without being able to look behind the curtain and see all that is happening around him... or like judging how good a family is by their Sunday meetings in church etc. From our point of view we don't know.

Now. What then are we doing? We utilize bits of information, mix them with our own ethical understanding and form an opinion, right?

I want to be honest:

I can not distinguish between the truth of:
"Buddha said killing is" & "The Shen of the animal is freed by..."

etc.

The topic of money: this has been discussed in endless ways. I have given my thoughts on the subject. Just to repeat the most important aspects: David's training in Denmark is in no way more or less expensive than a whole bunch of seminars led by all sorts of teachers where noone really is bothered by costs. That he charges in Euro and by the bad dollar/euro exchange rate it sounds unreasonable for Americans... ah well. Years ago I had the same trouble the other way round, wanting to study acupuncture in the states... and believe me: nobody would have reduced their costs for me because the exchange rate was bad.

Instead of travelling endlessly and giving a little seminar here or there, acquiring hundreds and hundreds of students he is focussing on less and if he where to charge more that would even be understandable.

Regarding what the masters "charge": it is up to us to decide if we want to pay. Not really up to us to judge if their intents are good or bad or reasonable or whatever....

yes I know: you have emphasized that at the initial level the costs are reasonable but according to Sean'S... let me just say: we just don'T know what things will cost each peron individually. So. Just don'T worry about it and sure not to make judgement based on some words... one thing though: IF this is a true teaching (which I am inclined to believe) THEN it is worse to pay some more money THEN paying a little less for a nontrue teaching or searching around, or: having to wait 30 years before a teacher even looks at you or or or... I understand that "money" is understood as an alchemical ingredient in some circles of the Taoist arts... so: being willing to invest a certain amount of money (thereby investing time and effort to actually raise it and then invest it) HAS a SPECIFIC quality to it! Most of the guys I have met sure do not belong to those who are able to shake the dollars easily out of their big toe. And those who possibly can will have many obstacles to surpass so that the money itself does not buy them anything...!


With regard to the label of the "left-hand path":



Believe me: I have my own personal troubles with this "sucking of life energy"... now: what you say is purely an opinion though. Reasons have been given for the "deed" that are by no means ego-driven, cruel, power-hungry. If one wants to believe the reasons given is a completely different story!!!:
In the second Matrix movie There is the question to the oracle similar to:
"How can I know that what you say is true. How can I trust you."
The oracle answers: "You can't. You have to decide what to make of it..."

So: You remember my thoughts on the matrix? IF there IS indeed a matrix (and many believe that actually) THEN there is a question what the bulls actually are?

Just to pose a question...

Further: Taking the life force of the bulls was offered to help one person in need who would not be able to cultivate to certain levels otherwise due to some birth condition. How ego-driven is that? If you call the wish of the person to be able to cultivate to a certain level ego-driven... okay. So be it. But in a way all we do towards reaching certain levels is based on ego to certain extent and at least up to certain levels... (one could argue that "ego" one can hardly get out of the equation and that we can just give the one type of "ego" a veratin label and the other one another). So: No example of aquiration of power other than being lifted to a state proper for further cultivation.

question: Can't the same be achieved by other means?

Harry's honest answer: I don't know.


Another example: David received the energy of bulls. True. In consequence is depleted level was replenished and he had his "powers" again. But as David pointed out (if I remember correctly) in the process involved was another level working on a karmic level. So once again: reducing the act to power-acquirement is beraping it of the other levels.



Let me clarify: the bulls were intended for VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY few who were said to TRULY need it. It was not a mass-event were each student got offered a bull. From the whole group I think it was 2 or 3 people who received the offering. So to say: "as an apparent standard" practice is far from it!

The question of "sucking out the life force of another creature" is one I am thinking about. From my limited point of understanding I have troubles with it, but IF what David says IS true, that these masters are able to see the cause and effect on a karmic level I don't know how many hundreds of years into the future and the past... THEN what does my limited understanding mean?

And IF it is true that the animal's Shen is raised in the process or "freed" THEN: how cruel is it?



Once again. Looking more closely at it for now to me that is no valid argument at all...!

So. Just based on the cases at hand and the reasons given one can hardly come to the conclusion:



as in no way they could correspong to your individual




As a final thought for now:

Regarding the charging of a fee for the forum. First of all: why do you suspect David's acting behing anything Sean does or say? Sean is a student of David but he is still pretty much an own personality.

I just want to point out that extrapolating from one to the other is not always possible and shouldn't be made a standard in my opinion. And sure not possible to extend this little aspect to a whole tradition... without wanting to be too personal: but this argument is pretty "small" in the overall scheme...

not that brief



Harry

Hey guys, please argue your philosophical position on David's teaching in other thread. As unworthy a topic as this thread is, i do think one has to respect the poster and the topic.

On another note, it's quite clear to anyone that, after thousands of posts that are available in the public domain on Mopai. If one still try to seek it out after reading through the all these posts, that person really have an unhealthy obsession over power. The path is just not meant for you. Get over it and find another path.

No Cause

you perceive it as a discussion about David... but this is just the most basic and obvious level of understanding. Behind our discussion there is much more...!

On a sidenote: While I am sure fine with taking the discussion elsewhere and do understand your intent, I honestly would prefer the original poster asking us to do it...



Harry

we all think that we are special and talk with deep meaning in every sentence. but the simple truth is that we are simpler than we think we are. basic protocol and courtesy should be understood without the necessary for other to remind ourselves.
peace and love.

so true



Well... ah well...



Harry

I think it is very important for all on this forum to know that Radu has disclosed that he is 14 years old.

Since many people on this forum try to offer helpful "advice" and "suggestions" to others in their search for spiritual/alchemical/MA matters, please take into consideration that certain "advice" or "suggestions" may not be appropriate for someone of this age.

Radu,
Personally, I would like to offer a suggestion. Zen, Cha'an, or maybe Vipassana might be traditions that you could consider (I am assuming you meditate) and would enjoy.

Even if you were allowed to study with David or John Chang, or any other Master (within the yin-yang gong paradigm), you would be required to reach stillnes (no mind/non arising thought) for an extended period of time. This, in itself, is an enormous acheivement and can have very profound effects on your life. Its a great place to start.

Peace,

M

I was unaware of his age.......I am even more glad that I spelt it out for him then.

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
First of all most know that I am currently a student of David. Everybody sure thinks: "Hey. This guy naturally has to defend his teacher." OR "It simply is not possible for him to even let room for the idea he is following a "dark" path" ---- all just simple "protective mechanisms" to keep up the integrity of ones own personality & identitiy...
[/quote]

I completely understand and fully accept a sophisticated adult is capable of this, which I naturally assume you are.

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
Now. I personally feel that as long as we are not even close to the level of these masters it is not reasonable to actually judge them or their deeds.
[/quote]

I unreservedly accept this point, and find it to be the central premise that undermines my arguments and gives this tradition the benefit of the doubt, which they deserve; and which is further supported by their miraculous powers, which may indeed reflect significant progress along the path of self-realisation. That is why I only offer prima facie "concerns" and NOT conclusions with a high degree of certainty.

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
It is not the same level but a little like talking about the daily deeds of a politician without being able to look behind the curtain and see all that is happening around him... or like judging how good a family is by their Sunday meetings in church etc. From our point of view we don't know.
[/quote]

Yes, if I was to offer a counter argument against myself, I would make your above argument which I find completely compelling, and suggest my arguments are weak for this reason, bordering on being invalid; as the data set is too limited and the conclusions do not compellingly follow from the cited evidence. Further, those conlcusions may not be the best (probabilistic) explanation for the evidence.

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
Now. What then are we doing? We utilize bits of information, mix them with our own ethical understanding and form an opinion, right?
[/quote]

Right, a matter of logic and intuition. But based on many assumptions which may simply be false.

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
I want to be honest:

I can not distinguish between the truth of:
"Buddha said killing is" & "The Shen of the animal is freed by..."

etc.
[/quote]

Me neither.

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
The topic of money: this has been discussed in endless ways. I have given my thoughts on the subject. Just to repeat the most important aspects: David's training in Denmark is in no way more or less expensive than a whole bunch of seminars led by all sorts of teachers where noone really is bothered by costs. That he charges in Euro and by the bad dollar/euro exchange rate it sounds unreasonable for Americans... ah well. Years ago I had the same trouble the other way round, wanting to study acupuncture in the states... and believe me: nobody would have reduced their costs for me because the exchange rate was bad.

Instead of travelling endlessly and giving a little seminar here or there, acquiring hundreds and hundreds of students he is focussing on less and if he where to charge more that would even be understandable.

Regarding what the masters "charge": it is up to us to decide if we want to pay. Not really up to us to judge if their intents are good or bad or reasonable or whatever....
[/quote]

I would accept that as fair and reasonable as any other position. I personally would argue against it for my own differing personal reasons and intuitions, but they are in no way any more compelling or valid than the ones you just cited - they just differ. This whole thing is very much a personal matter.

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
yes I know: you have emphasized that at the initial level the costs are reasonable but according to Sean'S... let me just say: we just don'T know what things will cost each peron individually. So. Just don'T worry about it and sure not to make judgement based on some words... one thing though: IF this is a true teaching (which I am inclined to believe) THEN it is worse to pay some more money THEN paying a little less for a nontrue teaching or searching around, or: having to wait 30 years before a teacher even looks at you or or or... I understand that "money" is understood as an alchemical ingredient in some circles of the Taoist arts... so: being willing to invest a certain amount of money (thereby investing time and effort to actually raise it and then invest it) HAS a SPECIFIC quality to it!
[/quote]

I completely agree. Money in and of itself is irrelevant. If in a possible world I could receive the very highest teachings and truths and practices conceivable - as if there is such a thing - then of course I would give my every dollar earned for the rest of my life to access those teachings; including both my arms and legs, and my life. Rather, it is a matter of the 'real world' effects of apparently taking so much, from those who generally have not so much - the conscious, yet, indirect suffering and hardship one inflicts on another being by taking so much in the exchange for what amounts in real empirical terms, as so little. A little sharing of one’s time and a communicative exchange of ideas. It is the apparent gluttony and excess which intuitively seems unjustified and inconsistent with higher-mind.

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
The oracle answers: "You can't. You have to decide what to make of it..."
[/quote]

Yep, I'm with you there!

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
So: You remember my thoughts on the matrix? IF there IS indeed a matrix (and many believe that actually) THEN there is a question what the bulls actually are?
[/quote]

I hear what you are saying and agree on one level. Yet, it would be big assumption to believe they are anything more than what they appear to be. That is prima facie evident; and we would need some compelling support to the contrary, wouldn't we? Yet, that is where intuition comes in, I suppose - indeed it would seem you have stated yours!

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
Just to pose a question...

Further: Taking the life force of the bulls was offered to help one person in need who would not be able to cultivate to certain levels otherwise due to some birth condition. How ego-driven is that? If you call the wish of the person to be able to cultivate to a certain level ego-driven... okay. So be it. But in a way all we do towards reaching certain levels is based on ego to certain extent and at least up to certain levels... (one could argue that "ego" one can hardly get out of the equation and that we can just give the one type of "ego" a veratin label and the other one another). So: No example of aquiration of power other than being lifted to a state proper for further cultivation.
[/quote]

With such an advanced master and tradition, why not take directly from the Tao? As it is said this is one's true nature, why can one not access one's true nature - realise it? Why such limitations? Because not enlightened, and thus must make use of lessor methods? The Tao is not limited like the creatures who suffer in this taking, and who are, by definition, NOT unlimited like the Tao. Does this not show the limits of the consciousness of the individual and their level of contact and integration with the Tao and their capacity to merge with it, realise it and give expression to their embodiment of it? My experience with the Tao seems to support this premise - but this is an intuition, and is not conclusive in any way. This would be in my estimation, the way of the right-hand path – to open to infinity and give from, and as the Tao; not to take in limitation, from limitation and give in limitation. To take at another's expense, while ignoring their suffering and the extinguishing of their life is reasonably suggestive of something, right? But the question is, suggestive of what? What do we infer?

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
Let me clarify: the bulls were intended for VEEEEEEEEEEEEEEEERY few who were said to TRULY need it. It was not a mass-event were each student got offered a bull. From the whole group I think it was 2 or 3 people who received the offering. So to say: "as an apparent standard" practice is far from it!
[/quote]

A standard practice in that tradition given to those in that particular condition and circumstance as part of their set of traditional practices? I do not know. Certainly, we do know that they did it, and have the ability to do it. One may reasonably assume they learned how to do it from their own tradition – it was passed on to them. Perhaps they discovered it themselves and did it just that one time, never, before and never again - it was exceptional to the rule?

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
The question of "sucking out the life force of another creature" is one I am thinking about. From my limited point of understanding I have troubles with it, but IF what David says IS true, that these masters are able to see the cause and effect on a karmic level I don't know how many hundreds of years into the future and the past... THEN what does my limited understanding mean?
[/quote]

That's it! What kind, type, level of consciousness would even consider it, let alone do it? It seems suggestive doesn't it? But you could be right. But, isn't the 'higher will / God’s will / karma' premise used to explain so many cruel and very "human" acts inflicted on other humans and creatures – like suicide bombings, gang rapes, genocide, letting the under-class suffer in squalor and poverty while the upper classes step over them, and shrug their shoulders etc? All in the name of religion and artificially created and sustained socio-political distinctions – separation consciousness? Again, its a big assumption; according to Occam's Razor, there are more reasonably credible and down to earth explanations of most things in every day life, right doctor? We don't need to postulate some abstract ontology to explain it.

[quote name='sunshine' date='Dec 8 2007, 01:38 AM' post='45185']
Regarding the charging of a fee for the forum. First of all: why do you suspect David's acting behing anything Sean does or say? Sean is a student of David but he is still pretty much an own personality.
[/quote]

Sean said it, I reasonably assume it was true when he said it, given he has insider knowledge of these things. I have no reason to think he is SO mis-informed and reckless in his statements.

I agree my arguments are not compelling, I do not claim them to be. But, I think they raise genuine concerns that nag at us on the edge of our consciousness - I know they would me if I were a committed student.

In kind regards,

Adam.

Nice to meet you all.Thanks for the advice and for clarifying some facts.Thank you Matt for your suggestions.But please stop arguing so much...
Good luck to you all.

Good luck on your path, Radu

(following the wish of no cause and Radu further discussion is taken off the forum)

Harry

Let's be honest here, the reason David vampirised the energy from 8 bulls was because he squandered the chi he had cultivated doing silly deomnstrations and giving mild electric shocks to the curious. Then again, maybe that's what his customers expected for five grand.




Isn't this a bit of a whitewash sunshine? I believe the group was pretty small, and there was at least 1 person who refused the treatment, so it was offered to what 25% of the group?



Maybe I am alone on this, but violently sucking the life force from another being just intuitively feels wrong. I will be the first to admit that David Verdesi is certainly a very intelligent person, but his arguements and sophistry justifying these actions ring hollow to me. It's the same process the ego uses whenever one tries to rationalize and justify something we inherantly know is wrong or immoral. For all David's intellectual prowess, I see neither wisdom nor compassion in his words and actions.

Lastly I will admit I don't really know a great deal about how one would free the spirit of an animal, but the fact that the beasts were reacting with a great amount of fear and anxiety to the point of defecating themselves would lead me to believe the shen was still there.

In any event, I hope my intuitions on David and his practice are wrong for the sake of you guys following this path Harry.

Brgds!

You are not alone.

Thankx Oolong Rabbit

regarding your other thoughts... although I took the discussion outside the forum just a few responses.

Are you a vegetarian?

I am not. So I have to ask myself if sucking the life force out of a bull, if not of benefit to only the student or even for the bull as well, is not at least to be seen on the same level as being a meat eater. So in a way only those who refrain from eating meat would be not doing wrong. All others could or better should not judge.

Regarding "intuitively wrong": there are so many things I felt to be intuitively wrong and they were indeed not. The same the other way round...



Let's be honest here. You judge without having been there, not knowing all variables in the equation and purely based on personal feeling. I don't know why you run this agenda but it is there indeed... all you say about David the way you feel it might be true and it might be not. That is the trouble with most things... one thing is sure though: you haven't met David and interacted with him I know. I know. There are students of his who haven't stayed and might feel today he is wrong. But then only those can actually share a true impression.



This is just an intellectual game: I have stated elsewhere and repeat. If there is a matrix THEN... what then is the fear of the bull, what is the bull? Of forum I gave another example: when you cut the head of a chicken often the body still runs around... would you say the chicken is running in fear? It is a body being triggered by nerve stimuli etc. etc. etc.

You think I am serious? You think I am cruel?

I love animals but above I consider a possibility.

I tend to avoid putting things as facts, especially because I am not at any level to truly realize truth. And I tend to avoid to judge the capabilities of those who actually have them from the point of view of someone who has not.



Harry

It doesn't seem right to me either. People who think it is okay keep coming up with reasons why it is all right. Like only a few people did it and we freed the shen from the bull. Give me a break.

Craig, I respect you. There is only one right or wrong in what we discuss. We all share our personal views and feelings about things but at the end of the day each one of us can just hope that what we did up to then was proper. I honestly believe we can not know for sure from the position we are at now. IF we accept the possibility that all arguments against it are true, we by all means should accept the possibility that all contrary explanations are equally possibly right. We just decide for one or the other... I seriously do not know why this "power-thing" sticks so much with you... to me this all sure is not about powers and the "benefit" of the powers talked about has been given on several accounts: it is not about the powers themselves...



Harry

Forget about the powers. Why do you want to follow this path? Stealing chi from bulls to fill the Dan Tien? Does that sound right? In my opinion I would suggest finding a Master to study with who you think is enlightened, that you feel happy around, and you don't have these nagging questions in your mind if something the Master is doing is right or wrong. Craig

This is indeed interesting Craig. I have met people in the past whom I felt totally confident with in order to find out later... so nagging questions are okay with me if they help me to stay away from blind followship and belief.

The question if someone is enlightened or not I can hardly answer



Harry

Well good luck if you decide to continue studying with David and Sifu Jiang.

Since I have met Sifu Jiang and spent time with him watching him heal and treat people, including myself, I will try to offer my humble perspective. I don't claim to be an expert on Lei Shan Dao or at high level my self, but I do have direct experience.

I found Jiang to be a wonderfully compassionate and very "enlightened being." When I was in China he treated a condition in my body that I had been intuitively aware of and felt on and off throughout the years preceding. The condition was caused by the sexual practices I had been practicing for several years. The week before I went to see Jiang, when I was in Thailand with David, I had a very clear dream about what would happen to me and, remarkably, the experience I had mirrored my dream exactly. The healing that Jiang performed on me was the most remarkable thing I have ever experienced in my life and very grateful that I followed my gut and that I was fortunate enough to meet him before my health failed.

After the healing, I experienced many remarkable things in my daily practice and personal life; things I never dreamed I would experience and know about.

I think it's quite natural for people to be confused about the master's use of animals for healing; at the same time, I know that Sifu Jiang and his masters are very capable and compassionate beings who use their abilities responsibly and always for the greater good. The use of animals in this way is not done lightly or in a caviler way and the masters take great care to ensure that the spirit of the animal is benefited. The masters say, all beings have a ‘soul’ and those bulls have a chance now to evolve to a higher place. That’s the part of the equation that people need to understand. The masters adhere to the dharma in all their actions and are uniquely qualified to guide the soul of the animal after the death of its physical body, which is just the clothing of the soul and has no life of its own.

Since the time of Da Mo and long before, the masters have shown the way to liberation and enlightenment. Their power for compassion is beyond what the mind is even capable of perceiving. It is sad that people would judge such beings without understanding the truth of these matters and without investigating or inquiring to know the truth of this totally unique and remarkable people.

Throughout the millenniums, Daoists, the first true scientists, investigated life, nature and the body-mind; revealing their secrets and mastering them. Their methods went beyond health and healing to conquer the greater disease, death. And with that understanding, came liberation, awakening, enlightenment and Buddhahood; the highest expression of life, which is beyond all extremes; beyond existence and non-existence, beyond samsara and nirvana; the great equanimity, the Dao.

To claim to understand or to condemn these beings is to miss all the wonder and blessings they represent in our world. People with great knowledge and power have always been misunderstood, attacked and judged, but for the faithful it is of no consequence what others dream up in their imaginations.

Instead of creating unskillful views and speculating, I would invite people to endeavor to find their own truths and their own path and master it before judging, gossiping and saying silly things about matters that they are not really qualified to comment on.

I was reading what Craig wrote about Sifu Max's comments on the use of animals for sacrifice. It’s pretty clear that he was not commenting on Jiang; there are a lot of strange cults that use animals in bizarre ways out there, but Jiang and the old Grand master are not in that category. Most of these groups have no understanding or ability to do what they aim to do with the animal and are just going though the motions and what amounts to an ordinary and useless slaughter of animals. I’m not sure Max would say those things about Jiang Sifu if he met him and they sat down for a cup of tea together. In fact, after meeting both of them, it’s clear to me that they would probably get along just fine. I’m sure Max would have the ability and insight to realize that what Jiang does is beyond simple power lusting and greed.

The Grand Master is an honored saint in China that thousands come to pay homage to every year in the mountain caves where he lives a simple and austere life devoted to spiritual practice for the benefit of all beings. He is a humble monk with no material possessions, but highly awakened, and someone who conducts his life and works with the dignity of a king and great master; he is a leader and a community builder and a true sage. He has now reached the age of 117 years (his master lived into his 170’s, leaving behind only diamond like crystals on his physical death), but is as active and vigorous as a man in his thirties with power we only read about in legends. He spends his time teaching and healing, mostly as a charity to the poor people living in mountain communities. That people would so casually talk in such callus and ignorant ways about this being, speaks only of their own issues and limitation, he is beyond all such arrogant claims.

Instead of sitting in idol judgment, cultivate the dignity and maturity that it would require to develop a clear understanding. It would be one thing if people studied with Jiang and learned the reality of what takes place, or at least met him and then had some criticism, but that is not the case here.

Hi Sean,

In reading your post I see many many asssumptions which you have made to state your point. At the same time I struggle to understand how you, or anyone can really be in a position to give statements as you have as if it was truth. Such high level understandings and methods should only ever be discussed by beings who are truely highly evolved. The way I see it, its like you Telling a top chef tecniques for cooking special dishes yet one does not even know how to boil water.

I do see that comments made regards the bull etc....come from there heart and there sense of what right or wrong....to me thats worth more than any theory. I say theory bedcause unless its your truth and not a truth that has been adopted, then it is still just that, thoery.

I feel that the foundation forum should be much more responsible and aware of there influence on those seeking during this point of time.

I based my statements on David's words, my experience and faith and the words of the masters themselves. No one here is enlightened, but we have a right to share our beliefs and experiences

Since I have been studying the methods and teachings of these masters and witnessed their abilities first hand, I think I'm qualified to give my views. I'm not infallible, but I'm very confident in my statements based on my study with David and first hand experience. I don't think my statements were at all unreasonable and I never said I was enlightened or a master.

Fair enough, my only point was that none of you have met Jiang or studied his teachings and that people should know what's what before they criticize other's faith and belief systems. People are capable of forming their own beliefs without help from me.


We are not an institution. We are a family of friends and fellow practitioners who share a common interest with other mature adults. If you do not like what we do or feel it’s not your thing, that’s fine. We are free to express our views and help people however we see fit. People like to gossip and present themselves in a self serving way by knocking things they have no understanding of or experience with; when people condemn another group of people for their beliefs, it’s a control mechanism that says, ‘You scare me and I need to label you and attack you in order to protect my own interests.’ The problem is, these fears are just blind, reactionary behavior that has no real substance or bases in reality. It’s silly and a waste of time and energy that would be better spent worrying about their own lives and that of their friends and family. When people lash out at other people’s belief systems without any bases for understanding, it just exposes their own fears, insecurities and bigotry.

All cultures have used animals for food and medicine at times and will probably continue to do so until we evolve beyond the need to. In my opinion, we are humans and, as such, should act accordingly. Later, if and when we become enlightened Buddhas, we can choose to live off morning dew and prana or whatever; the reality is none of us are there yet.

It’s one thing to speak in divisive ways based on actual personal experience, but to do so without personal experience is immature and pointless.

Sean, regarding your comment, "I was reading what Craig wrote about Sifu Max's comments on the use of animals for sacrifice. It’s pretty clear that he was not commenting on Jiang." Actually when I had a private session with Max I was troubled with the idea of chi being taken from the bulls so I talked to him specifically about this situation. I described to Max that chi was being taken from bulls in order to fill the dan tien so that it would help one with the practice of joining the yin and yang. I told Max that the bulls died a week later after this was done. He just told me that this practice was part of the left hand path and was a cheating way. He told me that people who follow the left hand path will usually die a slow and painful death or sometimes their children will die early in their place. He said you are not supposed to be taking life force from the bull in that manner since the bull didn't give its permission for that to be done.

I did ask Max about eating meat to sustain oneself and he said that was acceptable.

Anyway you guys can follow that path if you feel comfortable following it. I am just posting what Max told me in case anyone felt funny about it like I did. They can make their own decisions.


Craig

Sean thank you for proving my point and also I can see you have no idea where I am coming from, so I see no point in continuing this.

Beliefs and faiths will always only be that. Been a Cook for a few days and talking to a few Famous chefs and having a few great meals does not make one qualified in my books. Days is a fair comparision when looking at what it takes.

One does not gain the ability from the qi of the bull. That's incorrect, the ability comes from practice. Animals are used in rare cases for healing and in David's case, to nourish his qi and support the training.

Right, so tell me why Jiang’s master is 117 years old and the line is, as a rule, living well over 100 years old. Both Jiang’s children are in perfect health. Max is mistaken and he may have experience with other groups where these criticisms apply, but I don’t think you can take his statement as the definitive word on Jiang.

Let me get theis straight, someone who has never met Jiang or studied Lei Shan Dao tells you a story about their lineage, based on God knows what, and you, who have also never met Jiang or studied with him, not only buy this load of crap, but decide to go public with it, interesting. Could you have another motivation behind your attack, gee I wonder.

It’s also pretty clear that Max’s practice and abilities are nothing like that of the Lei Shan Dao. So, while he may have heard of something similar, that is different than actually having the abilities, knowing how they work and being qualified to make anything other than a personal opinion.

Right, but the cows he eats everyday (he said he eats cheeseburgers every day) gave him permission to make hamburger patties out of their bodies. That makes total sense.


Yes, and the cost is well worth it. But, Jiang does healing for free. If you were there you would know that. What he charges for is the Dan, which is expensive to obtain and make. He makes a small profit, from which he invests in raw materials to produce new Dan and allow people to obtain it in an affordable way. Taking it is not a requirement, but it can mean the difference between success in a few months and years and years of hard training. He has proven the success of his work, David and the hundred other masters he produced being the primary example and irrefutable proof. Of course, if you want immortality the easy way then there are plenty of teachers that charge cheaper prices and can give instantanous enlightenment… if you don’t see a difference, more power to you. I happy you found a path that suits your personality and needs. No need for sour grapes.



Your right, I have no idea where you are coming from.

Ive read this thread with great interest!

My first thought about this is why is killing animals worse than killing plants or insects? We step on ants, kill spiders with our bare hands, and do all sorts of really cruel things to innocent flowers and just to watch them slowly die in our window while really enjoying it and feeling our lives are enriched by it!

Our culture, based on reductionist science and a descartian worldview, say that mankind is worth the most. The needs of mankind is actually worth more than nature itself. Animals come second, then plants, then minerals. Plants and minerals dosent have souls and dosent feel pain so we can do whatever we want with them. Animals do feel pain, but they dont have souls so we can kill them and eat them if we kill them in a humane way. This is the collective consciousness. Some scientist have shown that fish dont have emotions so we dont even have to worry about how we kill them. Its just so terribly stupid...

The ones that are a little bit enlightened in our culture see that animals have souls. To them it is just as wrong to kill an animal as it is killing a human. But they still dont see plants as having souls. They feel the beauty of God and nature while picking and killing the beautiful and innocent flowers. So it all comes down to perspective or level of enlightenment.

What happens if you change your perspective and see every single being in nature as a living, breathing, developing individual? Do you go about killing animals and plants without any remorse? Or do you still feel that killing animals is worse than killing plants? Or do you stay completely still, not moving at all in fear of killing some smal bug or making the floor hurt by stepping on it? Do you die of starvation?

What would happen if you could communicate with the flowers you pick? Would you pick it if it sceamed in pain? What happened if you could hear what the grass feel when you step on it? What would happen if you could communicate with the soul of the carrots you eat?

If you see every single atom around you as living, breathing and interacting with everything else, how do you realate to it?

Im just asking...trying to see things from other perspectives than the culturally induced psychosis - which is believing that human beings are intelligent enough to know what should and should not be

Hi Sean,

I and some others in this tread have been wondering if you would be so kind and generous as to share your personal point of view and understanding on the questions raised in the below paragraph from the ongoing discussion? Please see below:

"With such an advanced master and tradition, why not take directly from the Tao? As it is said this is one's true nature, why can one not access one's true nature - realise it? Why such limitations? Because not enlightened, and thus must make use of lessor methods? The Tao is not limited like the creatures who suffer in this taking, and who are, by definition, NOT unlimited like the Tao. Does this not show the limits of the consciousness of the individual and their level of contact and integration with the Tao and their capacity to merge with it, realise it and give expression to their embodiment of it? My experience with the Tao seems to support this premise - but this is an intuition, and is not conclusive in any way. This would be in my estimation, the way of the right-hand path – to open to infinity and give from, and as the Tao; not to take in limitation, from limitation and give in limitation. To take at another's expense, while ignoring their suffering and the extinguishing of their life is reasonably suggestive of something, right? But the question is, suggestive of what? What do we infer?"

In essence, we are wondering why the master in question "cannot" or simply "did not" access the same or equivalent energy and end result - the healing and energy replenishment - by drawing it directly from the Tao, rather than from the bulls, as it were? Why make use of, or rely upon intermediaries when one can – as it would seem, as a realised master – simply operate directly on the subject at the level of the Tao? We see this at the most basic and rudimentary level in spiritual healing such as in Reiki and so forth. I can do this myself, with third party observable, objective results in the form of years of spiritual healing work with family and friends. I am empowered, simply invigorated when reaching out with my consciousness and making contact with That-Which-Is; and the energy and power that flows through me and into the patient is easily felt by both of us. Yet, this is very low level stuff as compared to an apparent master and simply shows contact can be made and effects felt by others. What must a master be able to achieve - complete healings or instantaneous materialisations? Of course this is a rare level of mastery, yet it is well documented in many, many traditions throughout the world - at least as much as the existence of any said miracle can be; thus, what level of master are we really talking about with LSD?

Many thanks for taking the time to share!

In kind regards,

Adam.

Killing is perhaps a regrettable necessity in worldly life, but for me at least, as a method for spiritual cultivation it is an anathema.

No spin doctoring please Harry. The question at hand isn't about the morality of eating meat. We can bring that up in a seperate thread if you like.



In my humble opinion, our higher self always knows what is "right" and "wrong", but the ego clouds the truth. When I find myself trying to rationalize and justify a given action, then it is usually a sure sign that the ego is at play for it's own self serving desires.



I wasn't at the Nazi holocaust or in Cambodia during the reign of Pol Pot, but I can certainly form an opinion based on the facts and accounts provided by those that were there. My agenda is simply that I feel these practices may be improper, and also that some of the characters and actions around these practices seem dubious. At best some of the practices are fraudulent, at worst... well I will leave that one alone for the time being.




The whole Matrix idea is a very slippery slope, and I believe ultimately leads one to the terrible "isms" of despair: skepticism, relativism, nihilism, solipsim etc... You might find the Spanish existential philosopher Miguel de Unamuno interesting in this regard. Here is the gist of his magnum opus Tragic Sense of Life: The thing that man fears most is death. The thought that our ego eventually dissolves into nothingness terrfies us on the most basic level. On the other hand, the thing that man cherishes the most is his ability to reason. But the concepts of the soul, eternal life and other metaphysical beliefs that guaranty our survival after death run contrary to reason. Unamuno views Reason is the universal dissolvent. We can use it to doubt anything: God, religion, truth, morality, cause and effect. When followed through to it's logical conclusion however, reason ultimately turns on itself like the ouroboros devouring its own tail. Reason can be used to doubt itself. Where does one go from there? You can basically collapse into the despair of the "isms": skepticism, relativism, nihilism, solipsim etc.... or you can cling onto the life raft of faith. Of course Unamuno believes faith is the best option. Why? Because faith is the only way we can come to terms with that most terrible fear of complete obiteration after death.

This philosophy had a profound influence on me. I have faith that there is an ordered principle to the universe. Call it what you like, the Tao, God, the Jade Emperor etc... I also have faith that I have a higher self which is intimately connected to this ordering principle. When someone presents me with reason-based rhetorical arguments that run contrary to what my higher self tell me, I always opt for the latter.



You wanna know what I think? I think you overthink things brother.



I sincerely hope you find truth Harry. It may not be as far away as you seem to think.

Brgds

O.R.