"Wait a minute. Hold everything. How many of you think that? How many of you equate enlightenment with bliss or ecstasy or rapture or whatever? Hands up."

Several of them raise their hands. Mary, who was asking about Zen, doesn't raise her hand. A couple of others who I know are already beyond the First Step don't raise their hands either, but nearly a dozen do. I'm not surprised by this but I wish to use it as a springboard into a larger and more interesting topic.

I stand up and begin pacing back and forth across the fire from them. I give it a minute, let a little suspense build, and then let it out.

"Fuck bliss."

Several jaws drop.

"Bliss is nothing. It's not relevant. It's a pretty piece of candy that has lured you away from the real work of waking up. Get it out of your heads. I can't emphasize this enough. This is right at the very heart of the web of misconception that diverts countless millions of seekers away from their own awakening. This is exactly the kind of narcotic you have to break free of.

"Now, pay attention. The way to get something out of your head isn't to hear some spiritual teacher say it's bullshit. It's for you to drag it out and really shine a light on it for yourself. This bliss nonsense is a perfect example. Do you really think that enlightenment is going to be like a permanently extended sexual orgasm?" Muffled titters and chuckles. "Think about it. Think for yourself. That's the Golden Rule in this game: Think for yourself."
I pause to let that thought find a home.

"Enlightenment is not a peak experience. It is not a neverending cosmic orgasm. It is not an altered state of consciousness. It's not a happily-ever-after fairy tale. It's just waking up-as simple and as difficult as that. We've all been sold on the idea of an everlasting spiritual high that we can never know except in flashes and glimpses of which the mind cannot even retain a memory. That's the opiate and the masses are sucking it up. Permanent bliss is just heaven repackaged for a slightly hipper crowd.

"The larger issue here is how such a bizarre belief found it's way into your heads in the first place. That should be a pretty scary thought. If that foolish notion was so firmly rooted in your thinking, what else is in there? If you're thoughts and beliefs aren't your own, then who are you? You must re-examine your assumptions, and believe me, only a small fraction of them are visible. Unchallenged acceptance can define you and alter the course of your life. For instance, maybe the whole reason you're on a spiritual quest in the first place is because of the unchallenged belief that this path ends in a permanent state of super-dooper happiness. Maybe you don't really want to go where this really leads. Maybe you're just in it for the fairy tale. I would guess that that is true of over ninety-nine percent of all spiritual seekers."

I look around and see everyone staring at me wide-eyed. Is my zipper open? "Think for yourself. That's the real golden rule. Think for yourself. Make it your mantra. Tattoo it on the inside of your eyelids."

i'm reading Jed Mckenna's Spiritual Enlightenment the Damnedest Thing, i suggest you all read it. it's amazing. if you want it, PM me.

i see on the board a lot of talk of bliss and equating it to enlightenment, especially with Kunlun. in my gut, i felt this was wrong and completely agree with Jed. nothing wrong with bliss, but it isn't enlightenment.

Finding your cup is impossible. Filling it will never happen. You locked it in a cupboard long ago. Bliss is a cup filled. Love, and exctacy when it overflows. You think that all the doors flung wide, an empty heart is all thats left? Each Cup in its turn will overflow. Freedom from the mind leaves an empty space that yearns to be filled. Who in thier right mind scornes a man of Great compassion? of great love?

hmmmmmm......
anyone that can say "fuck bliss'............
hasnt actually experienced it and its effects.

I wonderings. Chemical bliss versus the release of illusion bliss.

Is it possible to make distinguishments between the two, for sake of clarity?

the point is that being drugged up on the love of god, bliss, whatever has nothing to do with enlightenment.
enlightenment is knowing and living through the ultimate truth

I wonderings. Chemical bliss versus the release of illusion bliss.

Is it possible to make distinguishments between the two, for sake of clarity?

i see on the board a lot of talk of bliss and equating it to enlightenment, especially with Kunlun. in my gut, i felt this was wrong and completely agree with Jed. nothing wrong with bliss, but it isn't enlightenment.

Mikaelz,

I've been looking for the thread(s) where someone equated "bliss" with "enlightenment" and can't find it. Can you point me in the right direction?

Thanks.

AugustLeo

The simple fact is that it's a bloody mess, and the peace and love crowd don't sign up for that. They want the enlightenment that doesn't include relinquishing one's place among fellow water-treaders. They don't want to stop treading, don't want to slip, alone, into the murky depths, the endless blackness. They want the other enlightenment; the one where they can stay with the group and keep their carefully constructed, highly refined personalities and just be happy. Preferably, really really really happy.
I like happiness as much as the next guy, but it's not happiness that sends one in search of truth. It's rabid, feverish, clawing madness to stop being a lie, regardless of price, come heaven or hell. This isn't about higher consciousness or heaven on earth, this is about blood-caked swords and Buddha's rotting head and vomiting balls of molten lead, and anyone who says otherwise is selling something they don't have.

it was in my philosophy of kunlun thread. people equated bliss to enlightenment in that bliss is your 'true nature'

Tantra speaks of an all pervasive Universal Bliss where all other forms of bliss are but a pale reflection.

i'm reading Jed Mckenna's Spiritual Enlightenment the Damnedest Thing, i suggest you all read it. it's amazing. if you want it, PM me.

i see on the board a lot of talk of bliss and equating it to enlightenment, especially with Kunlun. in my gut, i felt this was wrong and completely agree with Jed. nothing wrong with bliss, but it isn't enlightenment.

If you think love and compassion have nothing to do with enlightenment, you are sadly mistaken. Enlightenment comes in many forms and many stages. Why do you want to set rules that it must follow? It's different for everyone.

Anandamayi Ma was God intoxicated her entire life. BLISS
Baba Neem Karoli said to "just love God". LOVE
Sri Aurobindo never wanted anything for himself. He wanted to free India from British rule, and then to enlighten the earth consciousness for everyone. COMPASSION

I think the prajna articulation is cool and valid, but let's keep it real... the intellectual and the emotional are two wings of one bird and you can't have one without the other.

I will obtain the Ultimate Truth and Ultimate Reality, that is the ultimate aim of my life in this world ­whether my body may remain with me or go to pieces. My bones and flesh may go into complete annihilation or remain with me; I shall obtain the True Form of the Universe. Through innumerable incarnations, good results; I have obtained a human body. I will not lose this golden opportunity and will certainly obtain samadhi and the Real Form of Consciousness. Calamity may come or go, mountains may break upon my head, but I will not leave my promise to obtain nirvana

not sure what you mean by the 'prajna articulation'

...

That was my whole arguement Mickealz with you over BLISS its not enlightenment funny how some people have to understand that themselves!

You can attain Bliss from having a wank if you want bliss, but any good chi kung or meditation practice will and should give you bliss just relax and let go with any of it and it will come Kunlun is not the only art that leads to bliss! Great marketing there website has, i wish i could make a website that gets peoples attention like theres. Hmm all i need is to include the words like "SECRET, ENLIGHTENMENT, LEVITATION, TELEPORTATION" should get some followers.

WYG

Kun Lun, and Red Phoenix brought about a change
Enlightenment was discovery true self.
Heroine i love very much. Heroine is alive.
seeking heroine constantly. the Divine is Heroine
Finding solice in her. Heroine is experience of divinity.
At some point inevitable a small room is found. It is Heaven just to get in there.
This room begs to be filled... with, what..? (heroine)

i see on the board a lot of talk of bliss and equating it to enlightenment, especially with Kunlun. in my gut, i felt this was wrong and completely agree with Jed. nothing wrong with bliss, but it isn't enlightenment.

story I once heard a famous shaman tell of journeying astrally and coming upon somebody sitting in bliss in a higher dimension. Although this person seated in the lotus position had found his way to a higher dimension, much in the way so-called Ascended Masters are typically described, he definitely had not made it back "home" to Source. In other words, although he failed to realize the fact, he was still in the holograph, still caught in the Matrix--to borrow a cinematic analogy. This blissed-out individual was so oblivious in his partial enlightenment the shaman was literally able to sneak up and touch him on the shoulder without his noticing anything!

Enlightenment is about raising consciousness and letting the light of the soul in to the point that we become it. True enlightenment follows a path of conscious personal mastery that results in transformation and, by definition, involves the creation of a stable lightbody. The lightbody or soul body is a "trinitized" (balanced and harmonious) physical vehicle that has resolved duality, karma and disease at the cellular and atomic levels.

"if one replaces 'bliss' with heroine you would be a drug addict. nah meat"

In Zen if you replace sitting w/ sitting infront of a TV, you would be a couch potato.
In Yoga, if you replace asana w/ yawning you'd be a sleepy head.

You replace lightning bug w/ lighting bolt you get fried. I think heroine addiction usually leads to a bad place. The person who regularly and deeply experiences the Kunlun bliss might be closer to the sweet spot, perhaps enlightenment, then you might think.

It'll be interesting to see. A reality test for any system is 'how well are you functioning in society? How are you doing w/ your job, friends and family?'. Thats important, at least to me. A blissed out person can be spacy and narcisstic, but Mckenna's route can be dark, Goth and solitary. Can be, but are they??
Michael

While I was reading his book, I was reminded of the talks and books I've read by Alan Watts. They both are pointing in the same direction.

Watts never achieved enlightenment, though. What about Jed?

Talk is always easy, but results speak for themselves...

Not saying they might not have great points, just wondering if Jed talks his walk?

ah, so you know that Alan Watts never achieved enlightenment, you must've met him. tell me what was he like? actually, there's really no way to tell if someone is enlightened by meeting them.. so you must've lived through him,, you must've been Alan Watts in a past life. wow, it's great to meet you Mr. Watts, too bad you didn't get the big E, better luck next time I guess.

thanks for the heads up vortex.
lerner, your analogies don't make sense. one sits in zazen and infront of the TV for different reasons. but one does heroine and one wants to attain bliss for the same reasons. THAT is the point.

That was my whole arguement Mickealz with you over BLISS its not enlightenment funny how some people have to understand that themselves!

You can attain Bliss from having a wank if you want bliss, but any good chi kung or meditation practice will and should give you bliss just relax and let go with any of it and it will come Kunlun is not the only art that leads to bliss! Great marketing there website has, i wish i could make a website that gets peoples attention like theres. Hmm all i need is to include the words like "SECRET, ENLIGHTENMENT, LEVITATION, TELEPORTATION" should get some followers.

WYG

Red Phoenix manifested this, so to speak 'enlightenment of the mind'. I have only been into those places like tiny-little-rooms -where perfect clarity happens a few times in the past 25 years. The degree of effort, and amount of labor to develop will/reason to get in there i am no longer capable of. One of these experiences lasted three days: 13hrs of meditation first day, then 8hrs, and 5 hrs the last. The result after such an effort was manifestation of certain phenomenal ability that lasted only a short time. I am supporting Kun Lun, and all that Max has in the biggest ways i can. I really believe. There have been amazing changes in me since the first seminar -too many to attempt to explain. I'll offer just one: I was not able to practice for several days after-was very overwhelmed at the implication of what had occurred at the seminar. At the end of my first practice a pillar happened( it is difficult to give validity to these things ) Its like your body transforms into a pillar of light. I had no consciousness of body -only of light...... There was not a strong sensation of bliss at this point -it was more of joy, and solitude partly in finding my ability within this practice, and transformation that lends a sense of great freedom -in this thought there was bliss. My very first experiences of bliss lasted only a very short time, and was more a sense of emotional well being, and physical pleasure. After a week of daily practice, even with my mind raging over the finer points of 'how to practice' some magic occurred. This 'Magic' lasted several days, and occurred in several stages. The first stage happened about three hours after practice:'my mind' separated form 'my self', and was able to view with great clarity the inner workings of both, and their relationship. After the next practice 'I' found my 'self' in what can only be described here as a "room". Max has explained this "square inch" in some detail -The elation, and amazing peace found in here!!! Next 'I' was shown the source of mind, and how it rises. Next was shown the reason, and mechanics of the rising of mind, or fractions of self. The next day there was 'no mind' -just 'self' as an infinitesimally small so to speak 'point of persception'(of light) -The Soul. There were of course further understandings, and changes after this point. It took a few weeks of daily practice after these events for the 'Bliss state to happen, and it did Enlightenment? I have been enlightened a thousand times, but never permanently. This is permanent. BLISS in the body is the result of opening to the Divine. This practice nurtures this connection -IN A BIG BIG BIG WAAAAAAAY. Get it? Now i live drunk on her love. A fool? unaware? I assure you not! She yields all we need in perfect measure at all times. This 'Enlightenment' we argue about is just a drop in the pond -however indispensable -Bliss is the result

Winpro / Cameron

Seems like a good experience you are having, the mind is a very powerful tool and can make you believe in anything.

I was just about to ask the same qustion, what else have you practiced before this?

You didnt answer my Thunder Breathing question, i gues you havent learnt this as of yet if so what differences is there between Thunder Breathing and Kunlun?

WYG

Ben,

Thankyou for being very honest with your post i like honest people and there is nothing wrong with critisizing as you said. I posted earlier that i wouldnt post anything negitive again but my buddy came back.
Oh and for the record i did post that if i was on drugs i would Gong Sau Max THAT is just a joke i wouldnt ever do that to anyone no matter how bad i thought of them. Just for the record that is a joke wasnt a real challenge!

Anyway i do enjoy reading these Kunlun threads they do sound like a fairytale and i see why its spreading cause people are after that stuff. I hope to see these abilties oneday!

be well
WYG