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mantis
this topic, i hope, will serve as a tool to everyone who is attempting retention. so far i am on record time, having not ejaculated for 19 days now. i have tried a lot of practices and try some today which may even seem crazy - i do not care, if it helps me in preventing nocturnal emissions i will do it. thus, i will cover some things i believe need to be addressed.

first subject: pornography, masturbation and women.

if you want to get past three days i heavily advise you stop watching porn; this instant. stop for a moment and enter a meditation like state while keeping your eyes open. look at all the weird thoughts going through, crazy huh? when you are watching porn and pleasuring yourself, as these usually go hand in hand, you are receiving tons of subtle information and gestures from the film. one is that women are here to give you your pleasure and must obey your command (hence men guiding the positions without regard for the womans feelings in most films). this will create fantasies in your mind where things must go a certain way or they're wrong. pornography i believe can also cause a form of erectile dysfunction, but that is merely my opinion.

masturbation, something else you must drop too. by this point if you haven't already gone back to the tao lounge muttering "this guy is nuts" you may be onto something. masturbation is in essence the physical manifestation of all of your sexual thoughts and desires. notice when you masturbate in your mind you are thinking of a pretty girl, maybe a model, maybe your girlfriend, doing things just how you like them. desire. once you quit masturbating you may find days to be significantly longer depending on how you go about your life, take the hint and use it as meditation time, or if you're into that type of stuff, qigong or energy work.

lastly, women. no you don't have to drop them but you do have to change how you think about them. look how filthy our minds are, we see an attractive woman and all we think about is having sex with her! this is how your desires have taken over your life. if you see an attractive girl just take her for what she is and move on; instead of staring at her tits all day and thinking "man i'd totally hit that." it is because of a woman that we're all alive, i'd believe some respect is due to them as they are genuinely the creators of all that is and all that ever has been.

something to keep in mind is that the path of great sacrifice is the path to great rewards. a lot of willpower is needed to do anything on the spiritual path, and being chaste is no different. at first, it is hell; you do not want to do it and you want it to end right now. within time you get a hand of the ropes and learn what you thought was terrible really isn't.

an example of this is learning how to play an instrument. at first your music will sound terrible, so bad even to your ears it sounds vile. you will be greatly discouraged, even in jest by your peers. if you can learn to overcome this and continue to practice, within time your instrument becomes a second voice, another means of expression to you; then your music is loud and beautiful to the ear.

and thus it is so with retention. you will want to watch the pornographic films, you will want to masturbate, you will want to have an orgasm, accept all this as this is the only way. upon starting you will fail, many times over again and will wake up only to find your energy has been taken from you in your sleep. do not give up, this is imperative for this process. write down what caused you to lose your seed and meditate on it and begin the process again as this is the only way to slowly purify yourself; overnight change simply does not exist.

so far, one thing i have found that works in time is not laying on your stomach, rather sleeping on your sides. when you sleep on your stomach you usually naturally get an erection, at which point any movement on the mattress could cause enough friction for you to have an orgasm even without the aid of succubi. when you learn to sleep on your sides there is no friction and thus, no unnecessary excitation of the creative organs.

林愛偉


Great points, good guidance! It is as such, change one's views about that which they experience. Then, both the experience and experiencer disappear and the true substance comes into view.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin
mantis
the alleged dangers of sexual retention
this i do not understand at all. people claiming that sexual retention can be hazardous for your health. i do not see how it would be dangerous to your health to keep the energy that created you; instead of wasting it for a few seconds for sensual pleasure. i believe this is a deep, deep rooted ego of lust that does not want to give up. ask yourself that next time, why do i want to orgasm? why? your mind will give you an instant response and that isn't what we're looking for here, you must look deep inside.. meditate on it.

do not get me wrong - there are side effects to retention, but i wouldn't call them dangerous. at first it will be difficult, you are pretty much re-wiring your bodies system to save instead of spend, and we all know savings accounts have higher apr rating, ha! you may feel pains in odd areas, areas you may have not even explored on your body.. you may even become sick for some time (as i am now sick out of the blue). however, this is something to look forward to i believe, as this is a sign of something marvelous going on inside: detoxification. see, when you spend your time spilling your seed every "cycle" or in some cases every day, your body has no time to regenerate. you give your body the message "this guy is creating life here, let's give the best we got to create a new human" your body does not know you are just enjoying yourself. once you stop this process your body no longer has to focus on obtaining energy to replenish it's reserves once lost from the orgasm, giving time for some well overdue healing.

this is where you feel the aches, the pains, the sickness etc. then on the second part you have those whom bring up the idea that orgasm will help the prostate. think of this for a moment, why is it that prostate cancer is only highly rampant in the united states? scientists believe it is the high use of dairy products, probably the lack of exercise and high obesity rates, too. nonetheless, there is other forms of caring to your prostate rather than exercising it via expulsion. massaging the pubococcygeus muscle externally provides some relief to the prostate without having an orgasm.

all in all, retention is not for everyone. some people love the orgasm and couldn't imagine life without it - that is fine, everyone will live their life. remember this, though, that your sensual desires will never be satisfied and in absence of their satisfaction is their dissatisfaction, and thus is the never ending cycle of desire.
林愛偉
There is no danger in retention. It is only said to just to get people to waste themselves, get confused. and was written by confused people. Monks retain till they physically die...no problems with them now.
Daoists and Buddhists alike are taught not to release. Releasing means death, retaining means life. The human body is to retain things it needs. It is because of people getting attached to lust that they make excuses to release their fluids.

People can argue and say its natural to release, but who really claimed that excuse? THe body itself is natural, there is no real separation between that which people think is unnatural and that which is natural. THey are both the same. People like to make distinctions to fulfill their own habits.

Simply don't release, and you will gain proper wisdom, be able to control desires, emotions, thoughts..basically you will be in the control seat. But release and your lust, emotions, desires take control, ad make excuses as to why its "okay".

There is nothing positive about releasing. f you can't do it, that means that before you sexually stimulated yourself, and released you never had the urge to release. Once you felt that feeling of releasing, it ingrained in the mind as something desirable and thus it was always sought after.

The feeling of releasing is an obstacle which results in many more obstacles. It is all natural because it is of the mind, there is nothing unnatural about what is in the world. People love to distinguish with what they think is natural and not.

All things are made of the elements. Therefore they are natural. What is done with them may not be wholesome, and that is shown through behavior, emotions, which is all mind anyway.

Its the same with anything that is really good for you. There will be another who says its not, and this will create confusion, and separation and thus two sides to the coin when in actuality there was only No Side.

There is nothing wrong with retention, because if you are not releasing, then there is no retention. The simple thought of holding back creates the mind that there is something that can be released, and thus results in confusion, and internal dialog about which one is right. Emotions get involved, lust, views, influence from friends, books, etc. All of this get people confused.

If people really want to know the benefits of retention, Cut off lust so you can see clearly.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin
mantis
your words cut through the propaganda sifu lin - right through it. people have been practicing retention since written history, i'm willing to bet prostate cancer didn't even exist then, heh. when you try retention notice the first few days how attached you really are to your sexual acts... if that isn't enough to give you the will power to move on i do not know what to tell you.

the best of luck to all of you
林愛偉
QUOTE(mantis @ Dec 21 2007, 06:55 PM) *

your words cut through the propaganda sifu lin - right through it. people have been practicing retention since written history, i'm willing to bet prostate cancer didn't even exist then, heh. when you try retention notice the first few days how attached you really are to your sexual acts... if that isn't enough to give you the will power to move on i do not know what to tell you.

the best of luck to all of you



Very true about the prostate cancer. Releasing actually weakens the prostate gland.

Have fun!

Peace,
Lin
Mal
QUOTE(mantis @ Dec 22 2007, 10:32 AM) *

all in all, retention is not for everyone. some people love the orgasm and couldn't imagine life without it - that is fine, everyone will live their life. remember this, though, that your sensual desires will never be satisfied and in absence of their satisfaction is their dissatisfaction, and thus is the never ending cycle of desire.

QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 22 2007, 11:50 AM) *

There is nothing wrong with retention, because if you are not releasing, then there is no retention. The simple thought of holding back creates the mind that there is something that can be released, and thus results in confusion, and internal dialog about which one is right. Emotions get involved, lust, views, influence from friends, books, etc. All of this get people confused.


Thank you both so much.

To think "I" have been "trying" to "do" this for 16 years.
What a fool.


No Drives, no compulsions, no needs, no attractions:
Then your affairs are under control.
You are a free man.
Easy is right.
Chuang Tzu
mat black
QUOTE
Simply don't release, and you will gain proper wisdom, be able to control desires, emotions, thoughts..basically you will be in the control seat. But release and your lust, emotions, desires take control, ad make excuses as to why its "okay".


The way i understand that is:

If we feel a strong desire/lust for a person, that effectivelly projects our energy away from us. So then the body responds by releasing/projecting semen. the body simply follows the mind habitually and unconciously

It's all projection resulting from craving/desire.

But when we really look into the cause of these desires, really look at them with awareness, the very looking at them burns them up, they just dissolve. The light dispels the darkness (unconciousness)

So then, with the cessation of desire, there will be no urge to project - mentally or physically. This is my experience anyway.

QUOTE
No Drives, no compulsions, no needs, no attractions:
Then your affairs are under control.
You are a free man.
Easy is right.
Chuang Tzu


Yeah, centered within yourself, free from projecting.

Mal, what a quote! so concise.
onebir
QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 21 2007, 05:50 PM) *

There is no danger in retention.


Several doctors here in China have told me that low ejaculation frequency can cause or exaccerbate prostatitis. And I found western research showing Catholic priests or monks have more problems in this area. (I can try to find it again if anyone's interested.) You could claim western research has a cultural bias. But I think for Chinese docs - who've been trained in a medical system with Daoist roots, based on the concepts that give rise to the idea that seminal retention can be beneficial - that's a harder claim to make.

The symptoms of prostatitis can be pretty vague - probably the only way to be sure whether you have it is to get a checkup. I seem to have misdiagnosed my own prostatitis in the past as back pain, colds and jetlag. blink.gif It's difficult to cure fully and can progress. Getting colds/ unidentifiable minor illnesses regularly - which seems to be a side-effect of prostatitis - makes it difficult to maintain a regular meditation (or whatever) practice.

If you're retaining via internal locking, another more insidious danger emerges: this can be a one way ticket on a major ego trip, and extreme attachment to sex. After all now you're a) quantitatively better than most other men at a (/the?) defining activity of manhood, b.) not really limited in how much sex you can have, & c) your partner(s) may also become somewhat addicted to you...

So there are physical and emotional/spiritual dangers. It's true that most of the world is way too "pro-ejaculation", with little recognition of its ill effects. But that doesn't justify a total backlash. A balanced recognition of the risks and benefits, and how to minimise the risks and maximise the benefits will serve the minority of people interested in exploring the benefits of retention better than totally ignoring the risks...
林愛偉
QUOTE(onebir @ Dec 22 2007, 05:04 AM) *

Several doctors here in China have told me that low ejaculation frequency can cause or exaccerbate prostatitis. And I found western research showing Catholic priests or monks have more problems in this area. (I can try to find it again if anyone's interested.) You could claim western research has a cultural bias. But I think for Chinese docs - who've been trained in a medical system with Daoist roots, based on the concepts that give rise to the idea that seminal retention can be beneficial - that's a harder claim to make.

The symptoms of prostatitis can be pretty vague - probably the only way to be sure whether you have it is to get a checkup. I seem to have misdiagnosed my own prostatitis in the past as back pain, colds and jetlag. blink.gif It's difficult to cure fully and can progress. Getting colds/ unidentifiable minor illnesses regularly - which seems to be a side-effect of prostatitis - makes it difficult to maintain a regular meditation (or whatever) practice.

If you're retaining via internal locking, another more insidious danger emerges: this can be a one way ticket on a major ego trip, and extreme attachment to sex. After all now you're a) quantitatively better than most other men at a (/the?) defining activity of manhood, b.) not really limited in how much sex you can have, & c) your partner(s) may also become somewhat addicted to you...

So there are physical and emotional/spiritual dangers. It's true that most of the world is way too "pro-ejaculation", with little recognition of its ill effects. But that doesn't justify a total backlash. A balanced recognition of the risks and benefits, and how to minimise the risks and maximise the benefits will serve the minority of people interested in exploring the benefits of retention better than totally ignoring the risks...



There is no problem with retention if one is cultivating. Doctors don't cultivate, and most Chinese Medicine Doctors in China don't cultivate either. I have met some Doctors of CHinese Medicine in both America and China, who are Chinese, that don't even believe in Qi.

Many "dangers' spoken of in Qigong are towards those who can easily be fooled by others who either are out to hurt people, and others who also have no clue what they are doing.

Proper cultivation is by no means harmful. It is warnings such as "retention is harmful..." that make people confused, especially to those who are new to cultivation.


Peace and Blessings,
Lin
onebir
QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 22 2007, 04:22 AM) *
Doctors don't cultivate, and most Chinese Medicine Doctors in China don't cultivate either.

That's a fair point. And it goes double for their patients, who they'd be seeing the effects in.

QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 22 2007, 04:22 AM) *
There is no problem with retention if one is cultivating....

How do we know? Even if it was the case when these practices were invented, it might not be now, because lifestyles have changed, people have different diets, are exposed to more & different pollutants, the practices have moved outside the monastery, practioners are less closely supervised...

QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 22 2007, 04:22 AM) *
Proper cultivation is by no means harmful.

This implies someone has to be doing it properly to avoid problems. How can they be sure this is the case?

QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 22 2007, 04:22 AM) *
It is warnings such as "retention is harmful..." that make people confused, especially to those who are new to cultivation.

The evidence on priests etc suggests it entails some risks. There doesn't seem to be any solid evidence on the extent cultivation offsets these risks - and probably never will be, because it's not really the kind of thing that's easily researched. And most people couldn't be 100% sure they're cultivating properly anyway.

Given the information available it seems impossible to deny that retention involves some risk. However, so do most human activities. They may not be large risks, particularly if it's done right. And the benefits probably mean the risks are worth taking...
林愛偉
QUOTE(onebir @ Dec 22 2007, 06:47 AM) *

That's a fair point. And it goes double for their patients, who they'd be seeing the effects in.
How do we know? Even if it was the case when these practices were invented, it might not be now, because lifestyles have changed, people have different diets, are exposed to more & different pollutants, the practices have moved outside the monastery, practioners are less closely supervised...
This implies someone has to be doing it properly to avoid problems. How can they be sure this is the case?
The evidence on priests etc suggests it entails some risks. There doesn't seem to be any solid evidence on the extent cultivation offsets these risks - and probably never will be, because it's not really the kind of thing that's easily researched. And most people couldn't be 100% sure they're cultivating properly anyway.

Given the information available it seems impossible to deny that retention involves some risk. However, so do most human activities. They may not be large risks, particularly if it's done right. And the benefits probably mean the risks are worth taking...



If one is cultivating properly there shouldn't be a problem. It is true patients don't cultivate, that's why I don't choose to see many patients. To be sure one is cultivating properly, night emissions wouldn't occur really...this is in regards to retaining and cultivating by changing thoughts, views of sex and lustful desires.

Monks don't cultivate so well these days as well, so not many are great examples, but there are many who are. There are some who lived to 120, 130 and who are not even sleeping who retain. But they are cultivating constantly.

A good sign of proper retention is younger skin, less health problems, more energy, not tired when waking and no problems trying to go to sleep, as retention can up one's energy level.

It isn't easily researched, you are right on that, especially because of the many taboos on cultivation in general, even more so with sexual energy cultivation.

Yet those I know who hold fast to retention practice have not had any health problems. Their side effects are high energy but with their cultivation, those things are utilized to control the "too" much energy from retention.

Because the many practitioners out there learning different views from so many books and teachers, it does make it difficult to know exactly what is proper. A good way to find out is to try it, and monitor one's mind, behavior, and health all the times. Look for the ebbs and flows and cultivate to not be caught in the ebbs and flows.

Not many can do it. It is possible because of this that there are many cautions on the retention practices.


Peace and Blessings,
Lin
mantis
QUOTE
How do we know? Even if it was the case when these practices were invented, it might not be now, because lifestyles have changed, people have different diets, are exposed to more & different pollutants, the practices have moved outside the monastery, practioners are less closely supervised...


this is how we know, i posted this previously that there was a medical study in which the men that regularly consumed dairy products had a much higher risk of prostate cancer. retention is not dangerous, i do not seek to argue but to inform those who wish to try it. for example, the oneida community of the 1850s practiced coitus reservatus and no ill side effects where noted in the men. here is a quote from the wikipedia page (it can be found here)

QUOTE
Male Continence is based on the male's muscular ability to control his ejaculation during sexual coitus. Young boys just entering puberty were only allowed to participate in sexual acts with women who were past the child bearing age until they had proved their fully mastered ability to control ejaculation. Many women of the community found male continence to lead to the furtherment of their sexual enjoyment, as sexual encounters often could last for more than one hour.

There were rumors at the time claiming that controlling the man's 'seed' could be detrimental to the male's health and lead to infertility, but these claims were later disproved.


you can, of course, become celibate and not do any sexual practices but that is not the way to go - you should not reject the energy, which is where i believe it is possible for danger to arise; you should use the energy to your advantage as the highest quality spiritual catalyst we have.

onebir
QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 22 2007, 06:22 AM) *
...cultivating by changing thoughts, views of sex and lustful desires.
This is really a separate issue to retention, and must be much more difficult in (most) modern societies, where sexual images are hard to avoid, than in the environments when retention was originally practiced. People practicing retention now have probably also had larger numbers of past sexual partners, and perhaps are more likely to have low level prostate infections as a result of this. These are very hard to detect because a) the pathogens don't cross into the prostatic fluid in large numbers and cool.gif many are anaerobic & difficult to culture in a lab.

QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 22 2007, 06:22 AM) *
Yet those I know who hold fast to retention practice have not had any health problems.

This doesn't imply that it won't cause problems in some people - the 'sample' is presumably pretty small, the environmental factors probably don't span the full range of possibilities etc.

QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 22 2007, 06:22 AM) *
Because the many practitioners out there learning different views from so many books and teachers, it does make it difficult to know exactly what is proper.
Agreed

QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 22 2007, 06:22 AM) *
A good way to find out is to try it, and monitor one's mind, behavior, and health all the times. Look for the ebbs and flows and cultivate to not be caught in the ebbs and flows. Not many can do it.
Accurately monitoring ones own prostate health is very difficult. Particularly if you're inclined to attribute sensations there to the cultivation process before considering the possibility of low level infection.

QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 22 2007, 06:22 AM) *
It is possible because of this that there are many cautions on the retention practices.
I'd agree there probably should be.
onebir
QUOTE(mantis @ Dec 22 2007, 06:52 AM) *
this is how we know, i posted this previously that there was a medical study in which the men that regularly consumed dairy products had a much higher risk of prostate cancer.
How does a dairy products-prostate cancer link have any bearing on discussion of a possible retention-prostatitis link? huh.gif

QUOTE(mantis @ Dec 22 2007, 06:52 AM) *
for example, the oneida community of the 1850s practiced coitus reservatus and no ill side effects where noted in the men. here is a quote from the wikipedia page (it can be found here)

That quote isn't attributed, and could change next week. The various environmental factors I've mentioned could well have been very different at the Oneida Community, and the effects of the practices only identifiable at a statistical level. It's not good quality evidence.

QUOTE(mantis @ Dec 22 2007, 06:52 AM) *
retention is not dangerous, i do not seek to argue but to inform those who wish to try it.

I don't wish to argue either. But what does 'not dangerous' really mean? Crossing the road is not dangerous, but people die doing it. There's concrete evidence that retention can lead to problems in western non-cultivating celibates. There's no concrete evidence that cultivation completely prevents these problems. Admittedly this may reflect the cultural/philosophical shortcomings (no pun intended) of medical science. But even if "proper cultivation" does offset the documented risks, there's a lack of clarity about what 'proper cultivation' is, and a risk that some cultivators may try to do it 'properly', but not get it right.

Nothing in the discussion to this point weakens this line of reasoning. So let's admit there's a risk, and encourage people to mitigate it. Partly through giving as full a description of 'proper cultivation' as possible, and partly through admitting that medical checks could play some role...
林愛偉
QUOTE(onebir @ Dec 22 2007, 09:00 PM) *



This doesn't imply that it won't cause problems in some people - the 'sample' is presumably pretty small, the environmental factors probably don't span the full range of possibilities etc.





Even good things, for some make them feel bad. It would be a whooooole other thread, and though has, it never got as deep as this.

The reason why even "good" things bring people uncomfortable situations, is their Karma.
Though it may not be "bad" that they feel bad, it is just results from past causes having the proper "vehicle" at the moment to manifest.

Just elaborating on the Karma part:

There are times when any type of medicine can't help the patient get better. This is one of those times when regardless of the manner of medicine, it is the person's karma which cannot be changed at the time.

far-fetched? biggrin.gif I told this story before; In a monastery here in China, Jin Ning Si, there is an old lay woman app. 95yrs old. Skinny, and small, lovely lady. She broke her leg while getting off of the bench in the cafeteria. She didn't cry, or even ache in pain. She simply stayed in "right mind" and the other lay cultivators there helped her to her room. Begging her to go to the hospital she refused.
She simply recited Namo Amitabha Buddha throughout the hold day, as she has always done. And her leg healed extremely fast, without a cast and without pain killers, x-rays, no medical attention whatsoever. She walks around now, though has a wheelchair and sits in it, she pushes it around the temple for exercise.

I have seen people with really bad cancer get cured and others not. Not the same medicinal formulas either. Karma has a big part, like the total part, of how we get cured from sickness and how we stay diseased.

In terms of retention, I haven't heard of any problems from those cultivating it that I know. They must be doing something right.

BUT there are those who aren't clear on how to do this, and there is the problem. So, YES there are problems with retention if it is done incorrectly, with improper guidance. And it is unfortunate that there is much more of the incorrect than correct out there.

So there is the question, which guidance is proper/improper. No pains in the groin, kidneys, urethra. No night emissions (but this goes together with no porn and watching sexual desires as well, AND no sexually stimulating of oneself, nor letting on e do it for you.. haha).

I like your reasonings. Very great points you make.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin

P.S.- the karma part though really for another thread, just needed to be a bit cleared up since I referred to it. smile.gif

mantis
today is my 26th day of retention and due to my recent findings i will post some tools here that i believe will help all retain. the movements are of hatha yoga and basically mimic pranayama externally. they also claim various health benefits; if that's true great but if not that's fine to - we're doing it for simple retention.

here is the first asana, it is known as "Sirshana"

IPB Image

it is done by locking your fingers together on the floor and thus making a triangle-like shaped figure and then putting your head inside of it. i suggest you use a wall for a while to practice and get the use of it as you will fall if you try it without. breathe only through the nose in this asana. i first held this posture at about a minute and 10 seconds, i am now up to two minutes. my advice would be to just hold for as long as you can and everyday increase by 10 seconds (or more, if you like).

here is the second asana, also known as "Sarvangasana"

IPB Image

it is asked you do this asana after Sirshana and also claims various health benefits; the only one im concerned with is stopped nocturnal emissions, which it does say it stops. it is pretty self-explanatory from the photo and this one gives a recommended practice time of 5 minutes and then continue progressing from then at your own pace.

this is the last asana named Matsyasana; this is to ease out any cramps or stiffness developed from long term practice of the above asanas.

IPB Image

do not frighten, it is not as complicated as it looks. simply get in full lotus, lay down (with your feet still in full lotus) and arch your head so that it is flat on the ground. you should feel a burn in your lower back and that will signify it is working. you can hold this for as long as you like, as it gives no recommended practice time. again i suggest you do it as long as you can and add slowly onto that. once finished your back will feel good and light.

all of these asanas where taken from the book "Practice of Brahmacharya" which can be found in it's entirety (here). if you are truly curious it has a lot of information you can utilize without having to be drawn into it's anti-sex semantics. good luck to you all.
Trunk
Semen retention dangers (link).

* hurumph *
Mal
QUOTE(mantis @ Dec 27 2007, 03:31 AM) *

today is my 26th day of retention


Hi Mantis, Glad it is going so well for you, it's my 5th and even the guys at work are starting to look attractive!
(went total celibacy, since I was having trouble just holding back)

It was an interesting Christmas. Normally I like to write Xmas, but this one was definitely not X rated sad.gif Even the actual kunlun practice felt particularly sexual this morning.

This does not feel right or easy.............
mantis
it is like riding a bike my friend. at first you will feel uneasy, you will want to stop riding. you fear that you might crash and get hurt so you use the training wheels. in time you can remove those and walking will seem slow. smile.gif
Upfromtheashes


BUT there are those who aren't clear on how to do this, and there is the problem. So, YES there are problems with retention if it is done incorrectly, with improper guidance. And it is unfortunate that there is much more of the incorrect than correct out there.

So there is the question, which guidance is proper/improper. No pains in the groin, kidneys, urethra. No night emissions (but this goes together with no porn and watching sexual desires as well, AND no sexually stimulating of oneself, nor letting on e do it for you.. haha).


Hi
I am confused -
Are you saying that complete celibacy can be accomplished without problems or retention?
I am confused as to terminology -
Retention is stimulating either with a partner or by masturbation and not ejaculating while celibacy is completely refraining from any sexual stimulation whatsoever
Or am I mistaken?
They seem to be very different animals in regards to effects-

onebir
QUOTE(mantis @ Dec 26 2007, 09:31 AM) *


here is the first asana, it is known as "Sirshana"

IPB Image

here is the second asana, also known as "Sarvangasana"

IPB Image

this is the last asana named Matsyasana; this is to ease out any cramps or stiffness developed from long term practice of the above asanas.

IPB Image




I teach yoga, and most beginners in my classes can't do sirsasana safely, with or without a wall. Having said that, my students are mainly female southern chinese, & their relatively poor arm strength and short arms don't help. But I'd urge anyone attempting sirsasana to get a more detailed description of how to do it, and preferably some instruction, before making a habit of doing it. Practiced incorrectly for long periods it can cause neck problems. Note that in the photo above the person is leaning to slightly to one side - that's very difficult to detect if you're practicing alone, and probably isn't helpful.

People have less trouble with sarvangasana, but some people need padding (eg a folded blanket) under their shoulders to reduce the pressure on their necks. It helps to go into halasana, and wriggle the shoulders closer before raising the legs into sarvangasana. Once again, there are some subtleties to the posture that the description above omits - the elbows should be drawn in to shoulder width (if possible - unlike in the picture), & the fingers point upwards. With the shoulders drawn in & pushing into the floor, the body can be lifted up a bit, leaving room for the neck to curve a bit more gradually than would be the case if the shoulders (ie trapezius muscles) were totally relaxed.

The version of matsayasana shown here includes a lotus. If when you sit cross-legged your knees naturally rest more than a few cms above the inside edges of your feet, a full lotus will put a lot of strain on ligaments inside the knees, and can cause injuries. The main function of matsysasana is to allow the cervical vertebrae to bend in the opposite direction to sirsasana and to decompress (very little weight should be on the head - most should be on the elbows). The lotus isn't necessary for this; the legs can just be extended with the front thighs tightened, heels pushing away.
neimad
QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 22 2007, 11:50 AM) *

There is no danger in retention. It is only said to just to get people to waste themselves, get confused. and was written by confused people.



My balls really start to ache and has become so painful I can't walk if I go for about 2 weeks without ejaculating.

林愛偉
QUOTE(neimad @ Dec 27 2007, 12:40 AM) *

My balls really start to ache and has become so painful I can't walk if I go for about 2 weeks without ejaculating.


One can relieve that by inhaling from them and lead to the crown , and on the exhale bring that energy into the Dantian.

You can also rub your legs from the back of the sit bones down the hem strains to the ankles. Another way is to do stretching. You can even press along the inner portion of the shins, about 4-5 fingers up from the ankle bone. That would relieve the tension around the testicles.



Peace and Blessings,
Lin
Vantage
Interesting thread guys.

I've been unable to get past 20 days, because of wet dreams.

I've found out that I especially get wet dreams when I drink coffee during the day, so I will have to drop coffee if I want to get past 20 days.
Trunk
Untransformed residual sexual tension
in all the various tissues
inhibits flow of qi, blood.
If you're unable to transform all
that you've saved:
you've got trouble.

People vary:
age, constitution, genetics,
astrologically, temperment,
life experience, dents / benefits,
training, development,
specific harmonies, dis-harmonies.
Respect your own condition,
practice discernment.
Yue
QUOTE(Trunk @ Dec 27 2007, 07:24 AM) *

Untransformed residual sexual tension
in all the various tissues
inhibits flow of qi, blood.
If you're unable to transform all
that you've saved:
you've got trouble.

People vary:
age, constitution, genetics,
astrologically, temperment,
life experience, dents / benefits,
training, development,
specific harmonies, dis-harmonies.
Respect your own condition,
practice discernment.


By "untransformed", do you mean unaroused?
Trunk
QUOTE(Yue @ Dec 27 2007, 08:32 AM) *
By "untransformed", do you mean unaroused?

I mean, basically, "sexual tension". Whether you are going the "desireless celibate" route or the "arouse and then save" route, you are going to have some sexual tension that you'll need to refine/transform. One of the results of a good practice session is that your jing becomes soft, sweet, supple, cool, "kind" (rather than hot, stubbornly aggressive, tense).

~ later edit ~
I really encourage people to review the dangers section (link) at alchemicaltoaism.com. Knowing the dangers will help you to avoid them.

Also, if you're serious about retention but find it to be a problematic area for you (i.e. you're left with stubborn tension) I suggest that you consider getting a vibration platform (link) and use it a couple of times a week (in addition to whatever your daily practice is). I know it sounds expensive, but it'll save you from the worst of the dangers ... the trip to hell and back that some of us here in the community have unfortunately gone through.
Yue
QUOTE(Trunk @ Dec 27 2007, 10:59 AM) *

I mean, basically, "sexual tension". Whether you are going the "desireless celibate" route or the "arouse and then save" route, you are going to have some sexual tension that you'll need to refine/transform. One of the results of a good practice session is that your jing becomes soft, sweet, supple, cool, "kind" (rather than hot, stubbornly aggressive, tense).


Ah. And how do you transform it?
Mal
QUOTE(Yue @ Dec 28 2007, 06:32 AM) *

Ah. And how do you transform it?


I recommend some sort of microcosmic orbit variation, whichever one that you prefer. Some meditation systems seem to transform the energy too, but I have not been practicing long enough to tell for sure.

Edit. I always liked this one too link Just noticed the new webmasters note cool.gif

QUOTE(Trunk @ Dec 28 2007, 04:59 AM) *

Also, if you're serious about retention but find it to be a problematic area for you (i.e. you're left with stubborn tension) I suggest that you consider getting a vibration platform (link)


Don't have one of those but I used my progasam yesterday and I must say that everything in nice and relaxed again. So it's day 6 and back to easy is right laugh.gif

P.S. I should point out that I think a lot of my "tension" yesterday was due to arguments / miscommunication with my partner over the Xmas holidays. Things had been feeling really natural and good and I was surprised how easily this was going. Then tension and emotions built up really quickly. So as well as no "physical" love I was missing my emotional love too. We had a chance to chat and reconnect last night, I'm sure that helped me feel good.
mantis
pranayama will transmute the sexual energies slowly. here is a method i use. Ham Sa Pranayama. trunk, i have not known how to reply to you and thus you might have noticed my ignoring of your replies; i now do, thank you. i realize now in vivid colors you are doing the same as i - trying to inform and help. if you can not afford a vibration platform you can buy a vibration massager for roughly $20 at wal-mart. i have one that i got for christmas but it wasn't asked for this purpose, rather some persistent lower back pain that has troubled me (which you can attribute to retention, it may or may not be the cause).

this thread is turning out just as i wished it had, a display of information for those who wish to learn can, acknowledging everything in between.
WhiteTiger
QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 27 2007, 06:18 AM) *

One can relieve that by inhaling from them and lead to the crown , and on the exhale bring that energy into the Dantian.


Agreed
onebir
QUOTE(mantis @ Dec 27 2007, 05:37 PM) *

some persistent lower back pain that has troubled me (which you can attribute to retention, it may or may not be the cause).


Mantis, you also mentioned 'getting sick out of the blue' in a previous thread. Together with back pain - particularly if this doesn't respond to exercise, stretching etc - these are the two symptoms of prostatitis that I've had. It's taken me quite a while to put them together. You may be able to save yourself some future problems if you get the possibility of prostatitis checked out.
mantis
i thank you for your concern but i don't really think that's the case.. i have had back pain for a while, it's usually a come and go type of thing. when i got sick was after a cold front, and i assume was from the drop in the weather from 80s to 50s. i checked out some of the symptoms for prostatitis and i don't appear to have a single one... some included pain while sitting, pain after ejaculation, low libido, sexual dysfunction, there's a ton of them that i don't qualify for.

thanks though, it shows a true family like value to this forum; i am then again 17 and don't think prostate problems happen just yet.

for all of those following up on this thread, today is my one month of retention, woo.
Mal
QUOTE(mantis @ Dec 31 2007, 02:18 AM) *

for all of those following up on this thread, today is my one month of retention, woo.


Sweet, Congratulations.
Just to represent the other end of the spectrum. I'm back to Zero. But it's all good.
durkhrod chogori
Seminal retention.

First:

1. If you live in isolation. Very easy because qi is moving freely around the body and constantly absorbing jing's energy;hence the seminal fluid is being utilised non-stop.

2. If you don't. You'll have to discharge it at some stage because sooner or later it will become stagnant. Kind of like a full battery, eventually you'll need to empty it (use it) in order to become full again. So, in this case dual cultivation is the best method to balance the discharge process as you'll absorb the energy of your female partner. Masturbation is a bad method because you will gain zero.

3. There are ways to delay the seminal discharge stage:

1. Diet. Avoid or limit Yang foods especially red meats, dairy and dairy products and processed food.

2. Meditation and Qigong.

3. Quality of sleep.

4. Sheng Xiao/Astrology. Your astrological and inner yin & yang configuration will determine your sexuality. Example: A fire snake born in the Aries month with rising Leo will need a lot more sex than a water pig born as Pisces rising Cancer.






mantis
my lower back pain is gone and no, i did not spill. i have been doing the hatha yoga asana's every night before sleep, i think they are of immense value.. i also take cold showers, a good shock to the system and good for blood circulation. not the feel-yourself-in cold showers, no no my friend, haha; you have to dive in!

now i at times have upper back pain dry.gif which i would say is better than lower, who knows, one day i might have head pain, lol!
Vantage
Ok here's my update on retention: (as in not ejaculating for a longer period)

I usually get, after one week, increased sexual dreams and wet dreams. I have never made it past 21 days because of that.

One of the recomendations here was to sleep om my side, instead of my stomach. I have managed to have some nights on my side, it is better. But still I get the sexual dreams.

So I became quite sceptical if it is really good for me, and I asked an experienced yoga teacher what he makes of the whole sex transmutation/retention thing.

He says it works for him. He teaches classes 6 times a day and then walks for half an hour to go to the gym. And then he says "guess how old I am." I said:41. He says: 61. I was shocked. The guy hardly has any wrinkles, super clear eyes and skin and does not look old at all. Simply amazing.

So I asked him, why isn't it working for me?

Before I give you his answer, I would like to hear your opinions on what food could be causing my sexual dreams. What was effective for you?

Well I can already tell you 2 foods he mentioned are garlic and onions, but I am not eating either of them.
freesun
QUOTE(林愛偉 @ Dec 27 2007, 06:18 AM) *

One can relieve that by inhaling from them and lead to the crown , and on the exhale bring that energy into the Dantian.
Lin


What kind of process happens when you do this? A diversion of sexual energy? Some kind of refinement?
Thank you.
Oolong Rabbit
QUOTE(Vantage @ Jan 28 2008, 03:09 PM) *

Ok here's my update on retention: (as in not ejaculating for a longer period)

I usually get, after one week, increased sexual dreams and wet dreams. I have never made it past 21 days because of that.

One of the recomendations here was to sleep om my side, instead of my stomach. I have managed to have some nights on my side, it is better. But still I get the sexual dreams.

So I became quite sceptical if it is really good for me, and I asked an experienced yoga teacher what he makes of the whole sex transmutation/retention thing.

He says it works for him. He teaches classes 6 times a day and then walks for half an hour to go to the gym. And then he says "guess how old I am." I said:41. He says: 61. I was shocked. The guy hardly has any wrinkles, super clear eyes and skin and does not look old at all. Simply amazing.

So I asked him, why isn't it working for me?

Before I give you his answer, I would like to hear your opinions on what food could be causing my sexual dreams. What was effective for you?

Well I can already tell you 2 foods he mentioned are garlic and onions, but I am not eating either of them.



I am on 4 weeks now. I do start getting sporadic sexual dreams aound 2-3 weeks in as well. Ironically this happened last night. There seems to be a catch though. The women I dream about are total turn offs. I am almost embrarassed to discuss this, but the dream I had last night was about a really ugly obese prostitue (trust me I would not make this stuff up, and if I did it would be Uma Thurman). I could not get into things and then in the dream my 5 yr old son walked into the room and I woke up shortly after. My guess is that my higher self is seing the reality of these illusions. The ugly harlot represents my sexual desires and my son purity and innocence.

As for diet, here's my guess from a previous post I made:

QUOTE(Oolong Rabbit @ Dec 2 2007, 01:29 PM) *

I would strongly recommend staying away from caffeine as well. Especially in commerical joints that use high doses like starbucks etc.... I speak from experience here. I had been holding off for around 3 weeks with almost no effort. I was surprised at how little it bothered me because my sex drive is usually fairly healthy. To make a long story short, I ended up working the weekend as a last minute thing. Both days I drank large coffees from one of the popular coffee chains. Both days I was horny as hell to the point of blue balls and couldn't take it anymore. Maybe it's coincidence, but I have noticed multiple times in the past when caffeine has had this effect. Coincidentally this effect seems to be much much stronger when I buy the chain coffee than if I brew my own at home. I have even wondered if there are other chemical addictives in the coffee in addition to caffeine. I went so far as to research this, but they claim that there are no 'additives'. My only other guesses are that they are using genetically altered coffee beans which produce a higher level of 'naturally' occuring caffeine, or the way they brew it concentrates the caffeine more highly.


* I would also add to that list most of the stuff that Marena Lindberg recommends in her book The Orgasmic Diet: Oily Fish, Dark Chocolate etc... although I have a theory that this could speed up jing production which could be beneficial if you could tame the urges.
mantis
my best advice is not to talk about it... i was celibate (no porn, masturbation, etc) for almost 50 days. i had a wet dream after talking to my friend about something sex related. how do i know? the dream involved exactly what we where talking about. yeah, it's that deep.

now i'm on my 8th day except i'm including masturbation and pornography; this is mostly so that once i have a partner non-ejac sex will be a breeze (i hope..). masturbating and not ejaculating requires... a lot of discipline, so i guess take it with a grain of salt if your considering retention.
Vantage
QUOTE(Oolong Rabbit @ Jan 28 2008, 05:27 PM) *

As for diet, here's my guess from a previous post I made: Caffeine


He definetly mentioned caffeine yes. I was aware of it for quite some time.

I had not drank coffee for a month, when last christmas I stayed over at my father. Since he is a regular coffee drinker, I could not resist the temptation. The same night I had a wet dream. The next morning I had coffee again, and again a wet dream that night.

So if anyone is having libido problems, caffeine is great. But if you're into retention, better stay away from it.

The answer of the yoga teacher as to the reason of my wet dreams was:
1 Impurity of food. He says no meat, eggs, garlic, onions, coffee.
2 He said: You may need to practice yoga and pranayma too for even distribution of energy.
Mal
QUOTE(mantis @ Jan 29 2008, 12:10 PM) *

my best advice is not to talk about it... i was celibate (no porn, masturbation, etc) for almost 50 days.


Hi Mantis,
Nice to see the retention thread again (was thinking of bumping 100 days) 50 is pretty dam impressive, perhaps a bit long, I think most release every month or so. At least you now have a chance to try some other tatics.

Retention for me has been an interesting learning experience this time. Everything in this western world just hammers sexual thoughts into you at every moment. I know everyone tells you this, but I had never really felt it myself until I stoped watching so much TV. I’m also thinking that everything in your life may well need to be perfect for retention to actually work in a positive manner.

What I’m experiencing is (Mmmm how to make this non embarrassing)

o.k. Since learning Dr Lyn’s stuff last year, there in no attraction in a 2 min quickie anymore. Which is probably a good thing, except that long sessions usually only happen once a week for us (if I’m lucky and our timetables line up) Again once a week is also o.k. (we have been together almost 17 years) and after sex I feel refreshed and happy. Toss in (haha) a bit of porn and it’s pretty much a great week. And I’m saved from masturbating everyday like I use to huh.gif

But add retention into the mix.

Pressure builds up over the week. Then if our timetables don’t line up, or she is just not in the mood etc, etc, etc. with retention I feel, basically, frustrated to “miss out”. So I might try some solo cultivation instead of porn, but as there is not the big energy exchange that you get with a partner, solo cultivation can be unsatisfying. (Although I find it good if I'm not already frustrated)

So now I’m frustrated and unsatisfied, which I know will lead to a nocturnal anyhow so I might just have some fun with porn instead. But because my energy levels are up I’m not feeling refreshed and happy, I’m feeling cranky and let down, but still “frisky.” So it’s more and more porn till I feel “dead and empty” which is not good at all sad.gif

(anyone recognise the cycle that Trunk tries to warn us about)

So I’m thinking I need to go total abstinence for 3~6 months if I really want 100days, or just get a harem with 100’s of women. Both options probably won’t make me too popular at home smile.gif But 30 ~ 40 is the age to stop “wasting” the seed, so really not to sure where to go from here. Although things have improved a lot in the last 2 years so perhaps if just a case of softly softly catchee monkey.
Oolong Rabbit
This might sound weird, but I think maybe the key is just not to try so damn hard. Often I find my mind wandering down fantasy road. I just acknowledge the thought and let it go. Mal, do you do Kunlun everyday, and if so do you find it somehow gets your libido under control?

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=4317&hl=
Mal
QUOTE(Oolong Rabbit @ Jan 29 2008, 02:37 PM) *

This might sound weird, but I think maybe the key is just not to try so damn hard.


I agree, to "want" without "wanting"

I had sort of given up on retention personally. But kept reading that is was the way to go, so I've been slowly moving in that direction since last year, the 100 days for kunlun was a catalyst to "try harder"

QUOTE(Oolong Rabbit @ Jan 29 2008, 02:37 PM) *

Mal, do you do Kunlun everyday, and if so do you find it somehow gets your libido under control?


Yes I find it does help quite a lot when I'm doing daily practice (Took a few days off for an experiment), but once I get "frustrated" it's just all downhill from there. And I’m not able to do huge numbers like some here, more than a week is really pushing things for me.
Vantage
Are you a vegetarian Mal?

I think this may be important. I am not sure yet, but I will experiment with it.
mantis
i don't recommend becoming a vegetarian, i eat red meat and 85% cacao chocolate and i still don't get issues retaining.
Vantage
QUOTE(mantis @ Jan 29 2008, 12:20 PM) *

i don't recommend becoming a vegetarian, i eat red meat and 85% cacao chocolate and i still don't get issues retaining.


Ok interesting. Why are you mentioning the chocolate?

PS. on the meat eating: it may work for some,but not for others. I'm going to try it out. Otherwise retention will not work for me.
Oolong Rabbit
QUOTE(mantis @ Jan 29 2008, 04:20 PM) *

i don't recommend becoming a vegetarian, i eat red meat and 85% cacao chocolate and i still don't get issues retaining.


Hi Mantis,

I am big on dark chocolate too. Are you on Marena's (a.k.a. Witch) diet by any chance? I was thinking about testing it as I believe it could speed up the body's jing production. The kicker is that it could also ramp up your sex drive and make retention more difficult.

I am also considering going veg for a week or so before the cultivation meeting, but haven't decided yet. I am not a big eater of red meat as it stands.

Oolong Rabbit
QUOTE(Vantage @ Jan 29 2008, 04:51 PM) *

Ok interesting. Why are you mentioning the chocolate?


It has a bunch of alleged health benefits. It's also recommended by former Tao Bum member Witch in her book:

http://www.amazon.com/Orgasmic-Diet-Revolu...0662&sr=8-1

The book is primarily for women, but she has some relevant info for men as well. Most of which has been posted in the following threads:

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=3389&hl=

http://www.thetaobums.com/index.php?showtopic=3417&hl=
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