Does anyone know what is the correct way of executing this exercise which is the core of many MA styles, including the Taoist internal?

My purpose is strengthening not the muscles but the tendons as discussed in this article written by Bagua master He Jing-Han:

http://tw.myblog.yahoo.com/hejinghan-bagua...p;l=a&fid=5


Thanks in advance.

Stand with your feet slightly more than shoulder width apart, and bend your knees so the backs of your thighs and calves form a right angle.

Are you asking the correct method for horse stance (Mabu)?

The stance is quite deep, and used often in qi-gong etc. The easiest way to explain it with text is to get into the basic stance and then correct each part of your body bit by bit. By far the best way is to do it in a mirror, then check you look as much like a reference picture as your flexibility will allow.

First put your feet just over shoulder width apart,

Make sure both feet are always facing dead straight forwards, don't turn them outwards or inwards at any time, a typical mistake is to turn the feet outwards when you bend your knees.

keep your feet flat on the floor (don't go on tip-toes or your heels)

Keeping your back absolutely straight, bend your knees so your begin to squat down, but keep your ass inline with your spine, don't stick it out behind you - that would be toilet stance. Bend your legs, not your body.

Push your knees out sideways (this is important), so each knee is roughly over the corresponding foot, and sink a little more into the stance. When you sink in the stance, the knees push outwards and your legs bend, you do not bend your body over or stick your ass out.

Check that your back is straight, your feet are facing forwards and not turned outwards, your knees are over your feet (as far as you can), your ass is tucked inline with your body.

Your arms can be held behind your back, in front of you straight in the bell stance, or more commonly clench your fists and retract your arms to your sides so your hands are facing palm-side up and at chest height, your elbows are therefore behind you.

Its a tough stance when you do it properly, most have trouble holding it for more than 30 seconds, during which time you will feel your heart beating more rapidly, so adjust your breathing rate accordingly.

Here is a picture (his arms should be held higher up):
http://www.fightingarts.com/content00/graphics/kibas5.jpg

Note that this guy is very flexible, his thighs are horizontal - parallel with the floor, and hence his stance is very wide because the whole of his thighs are pushed outwards. This is for stretching purposes, in real horse stance used in kungfu the thighs are very low but not quite horizontal, making a slightly narrower stance.

Um... per my training, this is a horrible mabu. Flexible he isn't -- his kua is closed, and so he has to completely misalign his knees and ankles in order to stand this wide and low. His knees buckle inward! -- there's no stability to this stance, I could knock him down with a feather. Practicing this way -- going for "impressive" low stances before one is able to open the kua and the yao -- will destroy the knees (which is the reason 85% of all people who start MA incorrectly are forced to quit, according to Wong Kiew Kit.)

In my opinion the photo shows ma bu over done. I think beyond a certain level when you sink down it goes from training root to damaging your knees. It just looks good. Impressive for WuShu demonstrations though.

The point of ma bu is to develop rooting for Jin. I have found the best way to develop rooting and Jin is through coiling Qi Gong. There you learn to connect the body and find your root.

Then you can sink your chi and and use your root to emit fa jin.

Agreed he is too stiff and his body is not song - relaxed.
Stance is too wide with too much stress on knees.

the pose has been described various places in the forum

Thanks for your replies, guys.

The problem I have is a tilted pelvis which makes things very difficult when it comes to maintaining an upright back.

So what do I need to do in order to keep the right stance?

In my case I guess I need to widen my leg posture otherwise I will be bending my back in excess due to my natural shortcoming.

I don't want to exercise my muscles I am trying to target the tendons as explained in the link provided in my first post.

Thanks.

you need to use your mind.

Care to develop that answer?

Thanks.

I think what you're asking is how to strengthen tendons, not necessarily how to do a horse stance. This article was a difficult read, but what I think he's saying is to exercise the tendons, you need to relax the muscles and let the joints open by pulling apart (extension).
You need to have someone reputable show you mabu, no one is going to give you a magic tip over the internet.
I do think you need to find the bows, have someone explain the arch he's talking about for a proper mabu.
I think Master He has a lot of videos on youtube for more info.
T

It definitely helps to have personal instruction. If you're just starting mabu it will feel very awkward and you won't be able to achieve a deep stance without losing proper posture. Here are some recommendations and observations:
1. I think the guy in the photo above has his feet much too wide. The feet should be under the knees, more or less.
2. Start in natural stance. Feet at shoulder width, facing forward and parallel. Crown of head is directly over the middle of the pelvis - more or less between the genitals and anus.
3. Little by little, widen your stance without losing vertical alignment of head over center of pelvis. Tilt chin slightly in, extend neck, extend lower back. Coccyx slightly tucks under.
4. As the feet get further apart, so do the knees. Always comfortable. Waist and hips relaxed.
5. Eventually you'll get wider and deeper but remember not to let the feet much wider than the knees.
It will take a long time to get a deep stance without losing proper posture, be patient.

I found these two videos on YouTube:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_6GFK1rJGnk...feature=related
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_rF9Fnff6oo

The second one shows He Jing-Han.

Thanks for your help.

i cant. it is an important secret and i do not know you. my job here is to provide you with a not-so-subtle hint. Thaddeus above have added value. The rest of comments were about the externalities. externalities are not important.

There's no mystical secret to horse stance, its just proper technique and regular practice. Ignore any new age mumbo jumbo thats being spewn about. Once the proper stance is acheived the rest occurs naturally by itself.

The picture I linked previously is a good example to a certain degree, though as I did say at the end of my last post - the picture shows deep stretching, and real horse is not as low down, but otherwise his form is excellent.

The guy in that picture is an authority on stretching but not a martial artist, infact he can side split across two chairs with people sitting on his legs - his stance is both flexible, steady and strong. It does take time to get lower in horse stance, though the aim is not to get as low as possible.

A lower stance lowers the centre of gravity making for a more stable stance, but too low and it will become too wide making it hard to cover in defence.

The first video you linked looks fine, the second not so much as their asses are sticking out a bit.

Im a senior in a traditional kungfu school with a full lineage based in taiwan, none of the new rubbish china is currently pumping out. Im happy to go over the finer details here or in private if you want to PM me, though I obviously can't teach full techniques without my teacher's permission, I can however go into as much detail as you'd like with stances, including horse.

ROFL nice stance

Perhaps this is a better example, its a bit higher up and therefore more accurate, but the principles remain the same.

http://z.about.com/d/martialarts/1/0/t/6/horse.jpg

If someone wants to study pictures of the stances, then they should google acknowledged Internal masters such as chen fake, chen xiaowang, sun lu tang, etc. etc.

I understand the points that Jakara is trying to make, however for neijia purposes, this photo is not the best example. The artist is rolling on the outside edge of the feet, esp. the left foot, too much tension in the upper body. There is no rotation in the body, power is going out to the sides in straight lines instead of down and up.

In a good stance you should be able to catch a 'knife hand' in the kwa (inguinal crease).

Stance study is very interesting. There is lots to learn from a discussion like this.

T

YAY, its nice to see some people have proper understanding and experiences. well put.

Yes i so many many problem within her stance.

Gunna look up those names for pictures of good mabu might post ones i see that are good. Or even better yet might ask questions about them! omg, i love to learn!

Where exactly is the the kwa the inguinal crease? I'm not familiarized wit this? from what art does neijia come from?

Google Inguinal Crease for pictures. In a good stance you should be able to trap the edge of a hand in there. Neijia is just a general term for internal arts like taiji, xingyi, bagua. But the elements of a good stance should be foundational for all systems, what works works regardless of dogma.

This stuff is very difficult to do. Here's something to chew on for awhile:
http://internalartsia.wordpress.com/2006/0...age-of-the-kua/
T

The pictures I linked are from a quick google search at the spare of the moment simply to give an understanding of what the stance looks like, by all means don't take them as the highest model of what to go by, they are just examples.

The style I practice might be considered a "hard" style when compared to styles like xingyi or bagua, perhaps different points of horse are emphasized for internal culitvation than for combat - which is where my horse stance experience is based. Or it might simply be my inability to communicate the finer points across the internet.

If you have a more accurate picture for the context of this subject then please post it to help further the understanding.

You've gotten some excellent advice here. Having an experienced person check your stance and make adjustments would be even better though.

Only thing left is practice. Standing practice is very powerful. There's a guided meditation I'll sometimes use when I stand. Its from Rawn Clarks Abardoncompanion.com. Its a free 15 minute meditation, the first from his Archaeous series. Like all the mp3 meditations there it is free and easy to download.

Like most he starts by relaxes the body. What makes it unusual is the elemental style of it. He equates the hips down to earth. Strength. Hips up to rib cage as water, flexible but substantial. Ribs to neck as air, light. Above as sun, awareness.

It makes the time go by faster and a 15 minute stand seem easier.

Others might have touched on this. When I stand or sit, I mentally have an elastic chord slightly stretching up the back center of my head, one slightly stretching down near my tail bone and two more slightly pulling my shoulders, stretching them (lightly) wider, opening my chest.


Michael

I'm sorry if i came off a little mean.

Now, i don't know this person. But from the looks of it she does some weight training, because it shows in her upper body. If she is training her upper body more then her stances then her stances will turn out worse. If she is training them side by side. Like I did originally your mabu will not evolve. sad but true



Good point, I'm not helping out by bashing. I have spent some time writing a little something on the subject. hopfully i will post it soon.

And searching over the internet for a good mabu... this might take me some time ROFL. ok:

http://www.kampkunster.no/klubber/bergen-s....jpg/image_mini

Is an alright example, he still has some stuff to work on. but it shows you the stance from only the front. his feet should be more parallel. this is a decent example because what he needs to change are much smaller adjustments but it is important specially that this is the foundation stance of almost all arts.

His knees could be slightly closer in line with his Toes, but thats picking on him. He has some upper body tension, if he was flexing what looks to be bridge hands, that would explain why. From the looks of it he doesn't have any what they call lower back locked up. basically the lower lumbar muscles not tensed. It looks like his tail bone isn't tucked in... which is a really really big no no. We are talking specifically about stationary mabu. Any mabu moving or was moving into something else as slightly different circumstances which means the function of what your doing is much different there for it will be changed. For external martial arts that i learned. it shows good feel placement, for a stationary mabu for exercising, where it shows you the feet is good example. Yet from the structure of the drawing i can already realize how unrealistic compared to a real body, and doesn't give enough definition to look at but still the foot pattern gives you a good idea. (its maybe one degree inward to much, maybe a degree in a half or many 3degrees but degrees only have big effect over long distances as where this doesn't but trainning your body exactly like this isn't good) Which bring me to the idea GO GET A TEACHER TO TEACH you these things... much better.
http://www.doppiofuoco.com/Res/Posizioni/3Mabu2.jpg

As i start to explain these things i don't want you to think that it can be done with force or strong effort but over time of your body getting adjusted, in other words if you use force you can hurt yourself, or you can just start taking away your stance from in another place to make one place look good. This takes TIME PEOPLE! Practice and hard work.

spent a good deal of time searching for these things... looking at stuff... i think i've gotten my point across.

But me doing this is not better then learning from a teacher... to get an instructer really.

REALLY!!!



*Sigh* XingYi and BaGua are devistating internal martial arts. If you actually find a teacher that teaches this. can teach you the cultivation which most likely will be for combat! Because Xingyi was popularized by General Yue Fei when he taught his army the system. They changed it around a little is my understanding for teaching purposes but lots of the rediculously desvistating parts of it are still there. BaGua is similar, similar and said by legand to be equal to XingYi

I was thinking a bit on this, it's very easy to pick apart pictures. Another way of looking at this is to post a picture of an acknowledged expert and see what we can learn from it.
example:
http://www.tai-qi-gong.com/Images%20Global...owang%20180.jpg
This is chen xiaowang in the form
and
http://www.wctag.de/grafik/Bilder_2007/art...an-zhuang_1.jpg

doing a standing practice.

Jakara, can you post someone from your style to compare the stances?

later edit..i just want to add one thing, i learned that many things that are argued about between styles are actually not essential. The important thing is the ability to transmit power correctly and efficiently. That's the tough nut to crack.

T

"In matters of style, go with the flow. In matters of principle, stand like a rock." -- Thomas Jefferson

The first guy looks more like combat style, the second looks more like the energy cultivation type, which I think is what is being shown respectively.

The combat type seems to stress a low solid stance that is required to execute a powerful attack or defence with proper grounding. The energy cultivation type I guess is more focussed on correct bodily alignment for proper energy flow rather than a deep rooting in the ground to withstand an attack.
Though im just speculating at this point, as I said before my experience is in combat and I use the same combat stance for energy cultivation with good results.

I don't have any pictures of myself doing the stance, im a little reluctant to post any. I study a northern praying mantis style, just for reference. Any combat styled horse stance is similar to the one i do, the first picture you posted is a good example.

yes, they are both the same. a combat stance is stable in all directions, internal arts often describe power in six directions. it just so happens that the proper alignments for energy flows makes the body stable, rooted, yet nimble for combat. That's what makes the internal arts so interesting to study, imo.
T

Have you done internal styles or Qi Gong exercises? Depending on the Qi Gong there for different reasons that help supplement what your doing. They serve a good purpose. Internal Martial Arts are martial arts. There not just spiritual cultivation. If you were to look for a internal martial artist, most likely they would teach you whatever they knew has a martial art. Most aren't spiritual. A teacher of mine once privately sent me this (buddhist cultivation) Once again Cultivation can be for combat or spiritual purposes. You have a misconception of what internal art is (i.e. what you said about XingYi, BaGua and you just said in this past post about "energy cultivation type i guess is more focussed on correct bodily alignment for proper energy flow")

The main so called Buddhist methods are :

1. meditation
2. concentration
3. breath control
4. health nourishing
5. mental skills training
6. medical use
7. martial use
8. spiritual use

That being said, anyone that has a great knowledge, awareness understanding for not just one exercise but a whole system they know for spiritual use they should have a great knowledge of how to use it for its martial use. Weather they teach or learned martial use is a different story altogether.

The way I personally look at martial arts. There are three things you should work on, and the importance goes in this order to.

One the art. It is artistic structure of the art itself. This is very important, if you have a stance you wanna practice it until it is as close to perfect as possible because its artistic trying to move in your form where you have almost perfect transitions. (lots of experts can generate great about of power, yet how perfect there transitions is questionable, yet at the same time no one will say anything because there understanding and there power generation is better then yours. Remember there fighters also, that are better then you. Would you ever say to an older master in there 80s that there stance is slightly off in this way when they transition... they might practice or demonstrate why it isn't, were i learn they would demonstrate on YOU. Well depends the intent of your question. To what level are they threating you abilities because they do if off a little. Well my point is your supposed to work for perfections its an art trying to do this takes time and you MUST LOOK INWARD FOR THIS! For a quick example, If they openly tell you or how power is generated, then you can work for perfecting that ability, not just by exercising muscle but utilizing your structure to the fullest extent, which is why it is an art getting this closest to perfection. But in many systems by perfecting the structure of your body more then just power is it determining, but also technique and if you read up on technique it involves more then just power.

Two Relaxation or the grace involved. This comes through lots and lots of practice. This is no simple or easy thing task to fully complete. This means the effectiveness of your ability. because how smooth, graceful, and relaxed you are through each move. Its as if your a master making something look extremely easy. This coincides with some of the stuff Lao Tzu said. "The way is simple"

Three Power. To learn to generate power better.

I understand quit clearly that the longer i went down the list, i say less about it. why is this... well you should figure it out honestly. Why should you figure it out. well not everything is going to be handed to you on a silver plate. You must work for what you want to learn.

Jakara, I think you should read the post I started about Tai Chi. You will most likely learn some great insight and also hopefully learning Tai Chi is also for Martial use! Just like Xingyi, and BaGua. Title name is Different teachings Taiji:

http://www.thetaobums.com/different-teachi...aiji-t4404.html

Jazus,
It's just a horse stance. There's a northern version and a southern version. But, bottom line is, it's stance training, no enlightenment here. Please don't make more of it than it is. It's gongfu, nothing more, nothing less.

Thanks for the input. My teacher practices Chen and Wu style Tai Chi and assures me that it is one of the highest martial arts, capable of defeating styles like praying mantis and therefore shouldn't be mistaken for a form of healthy exercise (as is often the case in the west) or any other misconception. I completely accept that, he has more experience than I do.

My experience lies in the "harder" styles, so that is where my input on horse stance comes from - I can't comment on anything outside of my own experience. Im happy and interested to share experiences from other styles, please continue.

No, I have no experience in the softer styles of martial arts. I practice two types of qigong, the first set is soft and dynamic designed to stimulate qi flow and nourish vital organs, the second is a hard qigong set designed soley for martial arts purposes.

I have little experience with energy cultivation in the context for spiritual progress, its something im currently researching, at the moment i practice wu-wei daoist non-conceptual meditation (zuowang), and daoyin (daoist yoga).

Im very familiar with hard work. No need for a silver plate, im happy to give out any and all information I have experience with, Im hoping for the same in return if your tradition allows it. We are all in the same relationship with Dao.

You know your right. And I'm sorry I don't mean to be changing the subject all the time. Were talking about how to do a horse stance. You are right Practice as you know what is a horse stance and continue to do so under the guidance of a teacher. Then from there it should evolve.

I was talking about a few different topics, (that might have come up related in the talks but was OFF TOPIC) one the way you train is what i got into lastly and that wasn't what this discussion was about. I'm sorry for that. Second i got into the the fact that if a person is spiritual and learned internal art from his spiritual teachers they know how to manipulate Yin, Yang, (more known in Tai Chi) and other elements within the body (more known in other internal martial arts)

what is Gong Fu to you? They just movements? Just stances?



Most of what i said isn't aimed at you. I was just saying to everyone that reads these things in general the points that are in caps are not me yelling but rather putting high emphasis into what I'm saying. The part where i said Internal arts i was aiming at you. just the idea i got from reading how you describe internal arts has a lot of misconceptions of understanding of internal arts.

What information were you hoping to learn what interests you maybe I have some information on it maybe not. Most of what I'm currently speaking of I have a good conceptual understanding of. At the same time though almost all i have mentioned i have experienced to what degree is a different story and thus why i call myself just a student with low abilities and not much knowledge to offer compared to a teacher, and many many times less compared to a Master.

Not to change the subject too much, but can you tell me where you are learning the daoyin? I've been looking into this. There seems to be japanese versions and chinese versions floating about. I'm familiar with Mantak Chia's set and I have a book on Japanese exercises. Also have seen Master Ni's video and book. I'm curious if there is any formal lineage out there. Chia's is the only one I've seen that seems to have a central theme (psoas exercises).
T



remember when bruce lee said, 'when i first learned martial arts, a kick was just a kick, a punch was just a punch. After learning a bit, i realized a kick was not just a kick and a punch was not just a punch. Now, after some time of mastery (i'm paraphrasing alot from memory) a kick is just a kick and a punch is just a punch.'

The daoyin was taught to me by a daoist priest, but the main exercises are a traditional set called the "eight pieces/section of brocade" or however you want to translate it.
There are lots of free sites describing the practices if you google it, though there seems to be two different sets both labelled as the eight sections, one standing and one sitting, im refering to the traditional sitting one.
Actually Ill write their names (im aware there are 9) so you can look them up accurately, they are in performing order:

Tappng the teeth
Beating the heavenly drum
Shaking the heavenly pillar
Red dragon stiring the heavenly pool
Massaging the kidneys
Single shoulder rotation massaging lower dan tien
Double shoulder rotation massaging upper dan tien and spine
Pushing up to heaven
Grasping the feet

I think the best book on it was by "stuart alve olson" called "qigong teachings of a taoist immortal".

As with most qigong exercies they are very simple to perform (and very effective), even if you have no prior experience. If you get a good book on them or understand the basic principles of qigong you can do them without personal instruction from a teacher no problem. I practiced these for a while from a book before going over them with a daoist priest and there was no difference in the way I was performing them. Theyre great for martial artists too, do this type of daoyin for 20 mins twice a day for just 2 or 3 days and notice how flexible and light your body becomes.

First i want to point out my personal opinion about Bruce Lee, Not that i've studyed all his life and history. But to me he seemed weather he had ability or not an arogant person. And yes i thought he has enourmus ability and knew quite a bit, not like he was a Great Master or a Grand Master but his fighting abilities were great.

Yes, as generally something is taught to you simply. You learn it simply. You think it is simple. Then it evolves you learn how complicated it really is. Then after you have mastered if. IF YOU HAVE COMPLETELY MASTERED THE MOVE. I don't mean got it down well, i don't mean be an expert on the move, i don't mean do it better then anyone you've ever seen do it. I MEAN MASTERED IT! Then it will become simple to you again. I personally have never mastered a move. I could say some of the most basic things evolved with it and understood many parts of it and began to get lots or even most of the principles one a few of the most basic things. But as my limited understanding according to what I have ready in Tao Te Ching it should become Simple again. (this is also according to my Kung Fu teacher) Once you have mastered a move one has fully understand the all the principles involved an can manipulate its use and ability.

Baji mabu.

Stand on the balls of the feet to stretch and condition the leg tendons, this is what we do in our internal art its a meditation (Jaam Jong). Develops fast footwork, springy leg skills, light skills!

What is the difference between Zhan Zhuang and Jaam Jong? Sorry if this may be obvious, I'm a newbie

Sorry that was cantonese (jaam jong) for zhan zhuang!

Zhan zhuang meditation has got nothing to do with Mabu stance conditioning for Neijia.

Regards.

Really?

Zhan zhuang meditation has got nothing to do with Mabu stance conditioning for Neijia.

I disagree, please explain why u think it has nothing to do with Zhan Zhuang?

You dont know what arts i practise or anything how i train my Mabu that is a very narrow minded answer!!!

I don't know why you get angry for??

What I said is what I feel, maybe you feel differently, then go ahead take ZZ as martial arts conditioning. I see and approach ZZ differently. This is the way I see it:

ZZ is too static and works directly (without using physical movement) with the internal aspect of your body and you are detaching from the external environment as you are slowing down your breathing while your eyes are shut. It would be the best Qigong because you are not moving externally, hence qi flow is faster. However, in this approach to Qigong the more doesn't mean the better.

Neijia work in a similar way but not so aggressively and are a good way to break from a constant ZZ routine.

Remember that DaMo taught moving energetic arts to the Shaolin monks because they were rotting their health after so much static work (maybe this is a legend but it makes sense to me).

Btw, I see Mabu a way of strengthening exercise for the lower part of your body.

"ZZ is too static "

TOO static? It's a static exercise.

"It would be the best Qigong because you are not moving externally, hence qi flow is faster."

Well, let's establish that qi actually exists firsts. That you say "it" moves faster is purely presumptive at best.

"Neijia work in a similar way but not so aggressively and are a good way to break from a constant ZZ routine."

What on earth earth does this mean?


"Remember that DaMo taught moving energetic arts to the Shaolin monks because they were rotting their health after so much static work (maybe this is a legend but it makes sense to me)."

Well this sound like a lot of pretty stories to me and germane to real practice in these times.

Zhan Zhuang and Mabu are the same thing. One is deeper legwork is all. To think otherwise is silly.

hhappy new year everyone

as usual I am replying to this far too late but here goes.

as far as i know the person in the photo is a gentleman called Tom Kurtz, pick up any martial aerts magazine in the UK and you will find adverts for his books on flexibility, he is a sport scientist and as far as i know not a well acomplished martial artist (but i am willing to be corrected on this pointed.) therefore his stances are done with strength and flexability in mind and not always with the same structure as martial artists would have.

i would like to see that picutre from a side on view to see how straight his spine is, but never the less the lack of structure between his knees and his hips means that he is using too much muscle to hold that stance and therefore it is useless for ZZ and even Martial arts and he is giving up a lot of mobility.

For ZZ your knees should be in line with your feet, this allows you to get real relaxation in your body and you can "lean" on your structure rather than using your muscles, the same is true for the upper body, you should push your Bai hui point up a little and this will striaghten your spine, there should be a line from your bai hui point to the point just behind your testicles (sorry forgot the name) and this should continue down and meet a line betwen your feet just in front of your heels, i keep my weight off my toes so that i can grip the ground with out using too much muscle.

just my 2 cents, if i am wrong please let me know

I agree, that stance is not what i do either, my horse stance is from southern Hakka (Bak Mei)!

Although there are many stances single leg, hanging horse, front stance, feet together, any stance can be used for jaam jong as long as you stick to the main principles of centering.

WYG

The mabu stance in martial arts seems to be the equivalent of the full-lotus in meditation. A deceptively-simple foundational posture whose actual purposes are somewhat vague.

I'm not sure what all the benefits are, and they may be manifold - but yesterday I had a thought on one possible purpose.

I'm guessing that holding poses works out your stabilizer muscles, vs your "mover" muscles.

- Where "mover" muscles move your limbs around with a large range of motion.

- But, stabilizer muscles are more sinewy like tendons with very small ranges of motion. Because they are designed to stabilize parts - like tent lines.

Well, in "normal" active exercises - you will tend to focus on the mover muscles as you move your limbs around. After which, you will tire quickly - well before your stabilizers ever get a workout.

But in static postures - your movers will tire quickly and you will then be forced to rely upon your stabilizers to hold your pose. That is why these postures - like zhan zhuang or the deeper mabu - are reputed to increase your structural strength. Because what you are working out here is the passive tensile strength and endurance of your stabilizers.

And this article seems to support my speculation:

The mobilizer/stabilizer theory has been bandied about alot in some circles, it's not new. The problem with that theory is that it sounds nice, but doesn't really hold up too well (no pun intended) under scrutiny. There are few, if any, pure stabilizer muscles that are holding up the body. Martial artists tend not to be anatomy experts so the various explanations one hears about sinews, blood vessels, etc. should be understood in that context. For example, many people believe the bones are used primarily to transfer forces, that may not be true, they may be more like spacers in the body. The fact that we don't even know how our bodies really work is very interesting.
T

Genius! When it becomes more and more evolved for static work... the targeting of more tendons and smaller muscles inside the knee is a Mabu that has been developed a little. This is only the foundation though. This is only to exercise the body. Its different when Moving.



You must realize that in Taoist teachings/texts there is something called the Ultimate One or the theory of Unity. who is talking about pure stabilizer muscles. Personally i don't agree it works the pure stabilizer muscles. But if were talking about targeting certain muscles and tendons for foundation thats a different story. From foundation you can work through moving the better your foundation the better your moving should be.

You must also realize that in Taoist teachings/texts there is something called change. The only thing that in constant is change. Change will happen. You can be sure of it.

From my understanding your claiming that martial artists believe bones are used to primarily to transfer forces... i don't know how told or taught you that... but the body works in unison. Yes the theory of body alignment the use of your lots or all body weight transfers force your force. Muscles and Tendons and how to unitize them is a different story... and involve many different techniques.






Honestly it is improper to say there are two types of muscles in the body. What you really mean depending what motion your doing. there are three basic muscles parts working. Depending on what action or exercise your doing determines exactly what the function of these certain muscles are. One act as the stablizers, two act as the ones that are directly being used in big ranges of motion for the specific action your doing. The others (i forget the name proper name off hand) they work synergistically together, taking the opposite force that you happen to be applying to them from the motion your doing, and get worked less) Those muscles are really what they call the ones not targeted withing the work out but still have to be exercised thus why i am claiming to call them the ones that synergistically work together with the muscles that are the moving in big ranges of motion. This gets into weight training and theories on the matter.

According to anatomy, there are three types of muscles in the body. Skeletal muscles more well known as (which is techniqually nickname) voluntary muscles is more common understood name, those are the ones we normally think of lifting weights. Its the muscles ones we use to change the motion of our limbs. Smooth muscles, internal organs that are also more well known as involuntary muscles. It is believe by westerns from my readings that Involuntary muscles can not be changed voluntarily. I don't think all western doctors believe this but this is what is mainly taught in school. I think thats been a long misperception either in our teachings or really we westerns are not taught correctly. The third type of Muscle in the body is Cardiac Muscles. There are three types of muscles for different functions in the body and are built different in according

Picture of the muscles under microscope (not a very good one better to show you one with each fibers of the muscle difference would give you better idea): http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/comm...cle_tissues.jpg

Smooth Muscles link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Smooth_muscle

Cardiac Muscles link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cardiac_muscle

Skeletal Muscle link: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Skeletal_muscle

Also realize that lots of chinese might know some of what there talking about but don't have the proper words to articulate them well enough for us to really get what there saying. Just clearing up a bunch of things.

Thanks for your insights WT. How about the Psoas muscle? What kind of muscle is that? Someone told me that the psoas muscle can not contract like a muscle. This contradicts what some teachers, like mantak chia, talk about in their taoyin program to exercise this muscle. Do you have any experience on that?
T

Interesting...but what do you mean by bones not primarily transferring forces, but acting like spacers?

Aren't vector forces in our bodies transmitted by bones? And a spacer would transfer forces, just the same, if it is in that line of force, right?


WhiteTiger - Interesting. So, both mover and stabilizer muscles would qualify as voluntary skeletal muscles?