2007's new development has got to be the arrival of Max and Chris... never before has taobums been swept up like this. Over a dozen of us have been to the workshops and dozens more are following the practice. It's really been something. We'll see if Sean and Chris set up another Kunlun specific forum or not... either way, it'll be fun.

The size of taobums.com has really taken off to over 1,000 users on it at one time. We are rapidly becoming a major search engine destination for Chinese cultivation and related practices.

I think the experience level and the amount of cultivation progress around here has also picked up markedly too.

I'm even picking up groovy taobum vibrations through the ether... there's almost a transmission energy going on with so many great energies involved. I hope that picks up in the future.

A great year and I'm sure 2008 will be fun too. Thanks to Sean for putting together and maintaining such a great forum and thanks to so many great, insightful bums out there... I learn something every day around here.

Yoda

2007 was pretty fun.

2007 was a very difficult year for me personaly...
But I always looked forward to my times on this site, and always received enormous energy from visiting here.

The growth has been amazing and a great inspiration to me, and I'm sure to many others as well...

We are indeed blessed to have this place to share and help eachother grow-

Thank you to Sean and ALL the bums who've made this thing so great.-

now lets make '08 an even better year for growth and compassion to manifest within each of us...-
PEACE!!!_
Pat

Thank you guys for a great forum to turn to here in the dark, barren north...

h

Yes, it's been a real watershed year for me. Seems some real Taoists masters started coming out of the woodwork recently and I stumbled onto here at just the right time to jump onto the Max bandwagon.

My first post here was only half a year ago on May 1, 2007. And that first post actually had a lot of symbolic resonance for my experiences since then. I was trying to feel my way through the dark. But feeling was in fact, the real key to finding my way though. This has been verified by Max, the Pleiadian Bringers of the Dawn, and others...

But, this is just the mere beginning.

In 2008, I will "resolve" to:

Feel more, think less.
Do more, talk less.
Keep moving forward.

Because the former are what lead to real progress.

PS - We must have a lot of lurkers here because regardless of how many users we had on at one time, it still seems to be the same dozen or so actually posting.

It's like the Rocky Horror Picture Show

Seriously though, I imagine most of the non-members are here just on a one-time basis googling some odd experience or practice and then moving on.

I think I found the original healing tao site by googling sperm retention and finding some crazy Ron Jeremy rant and I stuck around.

It'll be interesting to see if Sean and Chris set up a Kunlun specific site.

I'm still waiting for these so called masters to come to Boston and offer me a free slot. I don't believe in these powers and still don't think they have anything to do with spirituality.

Buddy -
I appreciate yr scepticism. But, what do you see as spiritualism vis-a-vis cultivation of our inner selves/attributes...?

Do you see spiritualism as something altogether different than seeking within?

What masters? David Shen? I admit seeing his teachers light things on fire with their qi is pretty cool but you have to spend 10k and go to China for a ticket.

Max? I don't understand it fully but Max uses his energy to throw or control his students movements but he even says in the video on kunlunbliss.com that if your not open to it it doesn't work.

Kan is a big strong guy and am sure he can handle himself without using kunlun energy but watching him fly around from Max basically touching him is pretty convincing.

In the martial Nei Kung systems the powers that are cultivated are not directly related to spiritual progress except in a roundabout way. Most systems, whether they are martial or caligraphy, focus on something 'else' to achieve which is not specific to spiritual growth but it can make spiritual growth faster because it provides motivation to meditate and it provides a focus for meditation.

The powers and special abilities cultivated in martial Nei Kung/alchemy require an increase in a person's chi power, and having more chi provides faster results in spiritual growth if they are combined with the right series of cultivation meditations. The enlightenment level among meditators in general is the same as it is in the non meditating public, but the ratio among martial artists is about a thousand times higher, I read that somewhere, the rest I know =)

Starjumper7, nice to hear from you again.

Thanks Mal, have a wonderful new year.

Hey there Starjumper-

I'm not so sure of the 1000% thing but yes - discipline works wonders for any attempt at self betterment -be it physical, spiritual, mental or martial etc...

I concur that WORK is needed in any case.-
But I would also still like to hear from Buddy about his thoughts on these things...-

And a very Happy new year to all-Pat

Does basking in the divine have anything to do with spirituality?

Does removing the illusionary "blocks" that create a false sense of separation from one's divine true nature have anything to do with spirituality?

What we actually do has EVERYTHING to do with spirituality and practically NOTHING to do with "super-natural" powers.

"Buddy -
I appreciate yr scepticism. But, what do you see as spiritualism vis-a-vis cultivation of our inner selves/attributes...?

Do you see spiritualism as something altogether different than seeking within?"

I'm not a spiritual teacher so there's little I can contribute. My feelings are more along the Dzogchen or Advaita lines. I think there is nothing to be cultivated, that True Reality ™ already exits and it is (not simply) a matter of realizing it. Don't look to me for methods, though.
If you want to learn internal power for the purpose of developing yourself, I can teach you that. But enlightenment?
Not me, Moe.

I agree, but my point was about energy cultivation as it relates to spiritual progress. Meditation use specific postures because they do specific energy 'jobs' in our bodies. When you have more energy flowing within then that job is done better.

Buddy

It seems you are skeptical of certain Masters so called powers.

Based on your development in IMA - which I gleaned from your previous posts - you Do believe in cultivation of physical arts which in turn implies culitivation of Qi as well.

So it appears that you believe in physical cultivation and Qi cultivation, but not in spiritual cultivation.

Would you agree? It seems to be a bit of a disconnect to accept the premises of internal martial arts on the layers of physical and Qi but not to accept the premise of cultivation of the spiritual layer or Shen.

In my view (which is not a unique one) the three layers are connected, Jing Qi Shen. Just as Yin/Yang are not two but one so are Jing Qi Shen not three and separate but one and connected on a continuum.

Just seems like a contradiction to me. The Taoist world view - as I know it admittedly from outside the culture - is whole. Practicing IMA and Taoist spirituality are inseparable.

So it seems clear that there is a necessity for physical cultivation to develop physical abilities (martial arts or other...) By logical progression it would seem obvious there is a need for Qi cultivation to develop related abiliities and a necessity for Spiritual cultivation to develop there as well. It seems a cop out to say that spirituality is just so and there is no necessity for cultivation.

But, I don't know anything about Advaita or Dzogchen either so...

Practice of IMA should lead to development of all three layers. If only physical and Qi power are developed then it is incomplete.

Now what you said about not believing in powers , and that powers don't have anything to do with spirituality is not something I disagree with. On the other hand powers (which according to the above statement may or may not exist) don't necessarily indicate a Lack of spirituality either.

Anyway, why would you want anyone to offer you a free slot to study anything? Your cup seems quite full as it is.

Craig

"It seems you are skeptical of certain Masters so called powers."

You might say that.

"Based on your development in IMA - which I gleaned from your previous posts - you Do believe in cultivation of physical arts which in turn implies culitivation of Qi as well."

I am open minded about qi. I have no hard evidence it exists, but I'm willing to concede it might

"So it appears that you believe in physical cultivation and Qi cultivation, but not in spiritual cultivation."

No, I don't believe in magic powers and don't think that sort of thing has anything to do with spirituality.

"Would you agree?"

See above.

"It seems to be a bit of a disconnect to accept the premises of internal martial arts on the layers of physical "and Qi but not to accept the premise of cultivation of the spiritual layer or Shen."

My skill is physical. Whether or not qi has anything to do with it is still up in the air for me.

"In my view (which is not a unique one) the three layers are connected, Jing Qi Shen. Just as Yin/Yang are not two but one so are Jing Qi Shen not three and separate but one and connected on a continuum."

If we assume qi exists, and it can be transmuted into what you are calling shen, then so-called magical powers don't play into it.

"Just seems like a contradiction to me. The Taoist world view - as I know it admittedly from outside the culture - is whole. Practicing IMA and Taoist spirituality are inseparable."

Nonsense. One need never even speak of philosophical matters to become skilled.

"So it seems clear that there is a necessity for physical cultivation to develop physical abilities (martial arts or other...) By logical progression it would seem obvious there is a need for Qi cultivation to develop related abiliities and a necessity for Spiritual cultivation to develop there as well. It seems a cop out to say that spirituality is just so and there is no necessity for cultivation."

But I never said that.


"Practice of IMA should lead to development of all three layers. If only physical and Qi power are developed then it is incomplete."

Martial arts are about self defense and CAN be used to cultivate ones self. Or not.

"Now what you said about not believing in powers , and that powers don't have anything to do with spirituality is not something I disagree with. On the other hand powers (which according to the above statement may or may not exist) don't necessarily indicate a Lack of spirituality either."

Nor did I give indication that it did.

"Anyway, why would you want anyone to offer you a free slot to study anything? Your cup seems quite full as it is."

Well, think of what a powerful testimonial it would be. But it's not going to happen, they only want the already convinced.

I here where you are coming from Buddy.

I think I respect Buddy's position .If you dont' have direct experience of something why should you blindly believe in it?

The only "problem" that exist is people like Max, Wang Liping, John Chang etc don't really have any desire to prove their abilities to anyone. And someone like Buddy who is reasonably skeptical isn't going to go to China or whatever to get the direct evidence.

From what I understand of Max's position, he isn't into displaying his powers(which I only have a vague understanding of at this point) He does throw Kan around using his energy and at the LA workshop he basically controlled one of his female students body from across the room.

From what I remember, Sean Denty had said that Jiang Sifu was willing to let people come to China and he would demonstrate his power. Someone like Buddy, who is already high level IMA, would be an ideal person to check it out. But again, Buddy probably isn't spending thousands of dollars to go to China and test Jiang Sifu and Jiang Sifu probably won't be going to Boston to impress Buddy anytime soon either

I haven't experienced Max throwing me from across the room but at this point I have experienced enough where I trust Max and if he says or does something I am inclined to believe. But again, he doesn't say those things work well until your are advanced at Kunlun to begin with(something about damaging a person's system if they aren't open or resisiting or something).

Cam

I appreciate the compliment Cam, but I'm not high level by any means. But I am a pretty good teacher.

I respect Buddy's position. I just want to understand it. Why? Because I believe it will help me to understand myself.

So Buddy, if you choose, would you please explain further?

Thank you.

AugustLeo

PS: If not, thank you for your sharing.

Wonderful post from Craig, as ever. Beautiful deduction and flowing logic! You know what is so interesting to me, is that we assume - as a first principle - that "Qi cultivation" is part of the package for someone on here who does practises that we think of as involving Qi activation and by inevitable correspondence, effect an awakening of Shen.
In fact our primary assumption is not correct. Which I find amusing.... the very basics, even, cant be taken for granted. We truly dont all share experiences/interpretations/effects.
Would you expect a member of a Taoist Board to have experience of Qi and have integrated Qi cultivation into their world view? I guess so. Isnt it a fundamental Taoist Art?
It surprised me when I first found how many people thought that Qi was something you imagined, rather than something you felt. We discuss what we think Enlightenment is, but I dont think we even know one another's basic experience of Qi, do we?!
So nice to have your contribution, Craig. Happy New Year. I always appreciate your posts.

The basis of daoist medcine lies in the understanding of humankinds relation to the heavens and the earth.This relation is expressed in the energetic configuration of jing qi and shen.The manifestation in humans of this belief system is effected and demonstrated through the application of the science of acupuncture.If one is curious about qi and its role the correct application of acupunture can clearly provide a practical demonstration.

This requires little money and no master setting things a light and flinging people about the room

Contrary to what many cultivators think, cultivation of chi does not necessarily mean that you cultivate Shen.

Have we experenced what Shen really is? In response to Cat's post, I'd say that very few western cultivators have real experience of what acessing the Shen layer of their being feels like and really is.

I myself have very few experences of really accessing the Shen aspect, and eventhough we may cultivate is in drops while meditating, really being immersed in Shen is something different all together. And you may be as weak and old as any, yet have very high Shen cultivation.

My master met an old Daoist nun at Wudan, who at 110 years of age was physically very weak, but her presence was that of a cosmic symbol.

h

"Beautiful deduction and flowing logic! "

Well, given that he was wrong is some cases, the flowing logic is lost on me. But everyone is going to believe what they want regardless of the truth.

A belief is a vivid hope or fear, and the origin of folly...
A wise person goes by knowledge, not hope or fear...

This is one of the Taoist quotes I chose for the beginning of my book of sonnets -

http://www.lulu.com/pdgart

-which Sean has so kindly added to our banners here)

it still rings true...

Enjoy the search for knowledge my friends, it is one of the greatest ways to spend yr time ...