Hi Everyone,

Thanks to Taobums I have become interested in Chuang Tzu and in a roundabout way translations.

The first translation I found was “The book of Chuang Tzu” translated by Martin Palmer and Elizabeth Breuilly. To be honest I never enjoyed this translation, I found it very hard to read and understand. But I kept trying because every now and then someone would recommend Chuang Tzu.

Then someone mentioned Osho’s “When the Shoe fits.” Osho is one of my favourite writers so I went and got that one. I love “When the Shoe fits” very much. His commentaries on Chang Tzu are wonderful and just leave me thinking “Yes, that is so true!” Osho’s book is where my favourite Chuang Tzu verse is from :-



The same verse by Martin Palmer :-
Workman Chui could draw as straight as a T- or as curved as a compass, because his fingers could follow the changes and his heart did not obstruct. Thus his mind was one and never blocked. The feet can be forgotten when you walk in comfortable shoes. The waist can be forgotten when your belt fits comfortably. Knowledge can forget yes and no, if the heart journeys contentedly. Nothing changes inside, nothing proceeds from outside, if you respond to what occurs in a contented way. By starting with what is contented, not undergoing that which is disturbing, it is possible to know the contentment of forgetting what contentment is.

So I was enjoying Osho “When the Shoe fits” so much I got Thomas Merton’s book “The Way of Chuang Tzu” which is the translation that is quoted in Osho’s book.

Another example :-


Martin Palmer
When Kung Wen Hsien saw the Commander of the Right he was surprised and said, ‘Who is this man? Why has he only got one foot? Is this from Heaven or from man?” (Amputation of one foot was a common form of punishment for criminals.)
‘From Heaven, not from man,’ said the Commander. ‘My life came from Heaven, which also gave me just one foot. The human appearance is a gift, which is why I know that this is from Heaven, not from man.
The marsh pheasant manages one peck every ten paces, and one drink every hundred steps, but it does not wish to be kept in a cage. Even if you treated it like a king, its spirit would not be happy.’

O.k. again I like Merton more than Palmer but they pretty much say the same thing, but check out this one.

Thomas Merton - Lao Tzu’s Wake
LAO TAN lay dead
Chin Shih attended the wake.
He let out three yells
And went home.

One of the disciples said:
“Were you not the Master’s friend?”
“Certainly,” he replied.

“Is it then sufficient for you
To mourn no better than you have just done?”

“In the beginning,” said Chin Shih, “I thought
He was the greatest of men.
No longer! When I came to mourn
I found old men lamenting him as their son,
Young men sobbing as though for their mother.
How did he bind them to himself so tight, if not
By words he should never have said
And tears he should never have wept?

“He Weakened his true being,
He laid on load upon
Load of emotion, increased
The enormous reckoning:
He forgot the gift God had entrusted to him:
This the ancients called ‘punishment
For neglecting the True Self.’

“The Master came at his right time
Into the world. When his time was up,
He left it again.
He who awaits his time, who submits
When his Work is done,
In his life there is no room
For sorrow or for rejoicing.
Here is how the ancients said all this
In four words:
‘God cuts the thread.’

“We have seen a fire of sticks
Burn out. The fire now
Burns in some other place. Where?
Who knows? These brands
Are burnt out.”

Martin Palmer
When Lao Tzu died, Chin Shih came to mourn for him. He uttered three shouts and then left.
A follower of the Master said, ‘Wasn’t the Master a friend of yours?’
‘Certainly,’ he replied.
‘Then do you really think this way of mourning is best?’
‘Certainly. To begin with I thought these were real men, but now I am not so sure. When I came in to mourn, there were old folk weeping as though they had lost a child; there were young people wailing as if for the loss of a mother. Such a gathering of everyone, all talking away though he didn’t ask them to talk and weeping even though he didn’t ask for tears! This is to turn from Heaven and to indulge in emotions, ignoring what is given. The ancient ones called this the result of violating the principles of Heaven. When the Master came, it was because he was due to be born. When he died, it was entirely natural. If you are prepared to accept this and flow with it, then sorrow and joy cannot touch you. The ancient ones considered this the work of the gods who free us from bondage.
‘We can point to the wood that has been burned, but when the fire has passed on, we cannot know where it has gone.’

A vary different translation to Merton !!!

I also have Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way" on order, Burton Watson is next

i have the merton translation and my favorite is the The Woodcarver (i feel that affinity to finding the inspiration rather than forcing it or thinking it comes from the spirits)

you should also check out Wen-tzu: Understanding the Mysteries and my current favorite Awakening to the Tao by Liu I-Ming, translated by Thomas Cleary. Awakening has many contemplations to meditate on.

Chuang Tzu is a remarkable but also very tricky text, unless one know the history behind its creation, it will be like a mirror to a reader - he will see only his own thoughts in it and rejoice in percieved validation.

Watson is quite similar to Palmer:

Artisan Ch'ui could draw as true as a compass or a T square because his fingers changed along with things and he didn't let his mind get in the way. Therefore his Spirit Tower (Daoist term for the mind) remained unified and unobstructed.
You forget your feet when the shoes are comfortable. You forget your waist when the belt is comfortable. Understanding forgets right and wrong when the mind is comfortable. There is no change in what is inside, no following what is outside, when the adjustment to events is comfortable. You begin with what is comfortable and never experience what is uncomfortable when you know the comfort of forgetting what is comfortable.

I love Zhuangzi, particularly Merton's translation which is my favorite. I never really appreciated Zhuangzi fully until reading Osho's commentaries in the two books When the Shoe Fits and The Open Boat. Whatever else Osho might have been, he could really communicate profound meanings in Daoist literature. I never realized he used the Merton translations - thanks for turning me on to that.

One of my favorite Zhuangzi parables is The Strutting Cock and the Fighting Cock

Chi Hsing Tzu was a trainer of fighting cocks
for King Hsuan.
He was training a fine bird.
The King kept asking if the bird were
Ready for combat.
"Not yet," said the trainer.
"He is full of fire.
He is ready to pick a fight
With every other bird. He is vain and confident
Of his own strength."
After ten days, he answered again:
"Not yet. He flares up
When he hears another bird crow."
After ten more days:
"Not yet. He still gets
That angry look
and ruffles his feathers."
Again ten days:
The trainer said, "Now he is nearly ready.
When another bird crows, his eye
does not even flicker.
He stands immobile
Like a cock of wood.
He is a mature fighter.
Other birds
will take one look at him
And run."

(The Way of Chuang Tzu, Thomas Merton, 1965)


Here is Watson's version
Chi Hsing-Tzu was training gamecocks for the king. After ten days the king asked if they were ready.
"Not yet. They're too haughty and rely on their nerve."
Another ten days and the king asked again.
"Not yet. They still respond to noises and movements."
Another ten days and the king asked again.
"Not yet. They still look around fiercely and are full of spirit."
Another ten days and the king asked again.
"They're close enough. Another cock can crow and they show no sign of change. Look at them from a distance and you'd think they were made of wood. Their virtue is complete. Other cocks won't dare face them, but will turn and run."

Very cool thread Mal!
Another worthwhile investment is Lin Yutang's book The Wisdom of Lao-tse. It intersperses chapters of Dao De Jing with relevant excerpts from Zhuangzi. A very scholarly and serious work of Chinese philosophy.

In the book this is followed by

The Inner Law
HE whose law is within himself
Walks in hiddenness.
His acts are not influenced
By approval or disapproval.
He whose law is outside himself
Directs his will to what is
Beyond his control
And seeks
To extend his power
Over objects.

He who walks in hiddenness
Has light to guide him
In all his acts.
He who seeks to extend his control
Is nothing but an operator.
While he thinks he is
Surpassing others,
Others see him merely
Straining, stretching,
To stand on tiptoe.

When he tries to extend his power
Over objects,
Those objects gain control
Of him.
He who is controlled by objects
Loses possession of his inner self:
If he no longer values himself,
How can he value others?
If he no longer values other,
His is abandoned.
He has nothing left!

There is no deadlier weapon than the will!
The sharpest sword
Is not equal to it!
There is no robber so dangerous
As Nature (Yang and Yin)
Yet it is not nature
That does the damage:
It is man’s own will!

And from Martin Palmer the 2 together (not too sure exactly where the 1st quote starts

Draw on the generosity of life to sustain your body. Protect yourself from cares, and you will give life to your heart. Revere what is central within and manifest it. Do this, and even, if a multitude of evils befall you, they will be Heavenly in origin, not the works of fellow human beings. They will not overcome your serenity, they will not enter into your Spirit Tower (Heart and mind). Your Spirit Tower has its guardian but unless you know this guardian, it will not guard you.
If you cannot see this sincerity within you and you try to manifest it, it will fail. You will be invaded by external influences and will be unable to rid yourself of them. Then, whatever you do will inevitably fail. If you act badly in full public view, then people will seize you and punish you. If you act badly by night, then you will be seized by ghosts and punished. Understand this properly, know how you stand with regard to both people and ghosts and then reflect on this alone.

Someone who focuses on the internal is not interested in fame.
Someone who focuses on the external is intent on gaining whatever he can.
The one who does things which bring.no glory, shines brightly in all he does.
One who looks to make gains at any cost is just a trader.
Others see he is just standing on tiptoe, but he thinks he is above all others.
Someone who struggles to succeed gets worn out,
while someone who doesn’t really mind can’t be possessed by such forces.
To exclude others is to show lack of concern and not to be concerned with others means that everyone is a stranger.
There is no weapon more lethal than the will — even Mo Yeh was inferior to it.
There are no greater adversaries than yin and yang, because nothing in Heaven or on Earth escapes them.
But it is not yin and yang that do this, it is your heart that makes it so.

Agreed. The osho one was entertaining and got the point across. I actually had to stop reading the Palmer one half way in incase I died from boredom

The Wheel Maker

by Derek Lin

One day, King Huan was reading a book while an old craftsman was busy making wheels over in a corner. The old man noticed that the book seemed to capture the King's complete attention. He grew increasingly curious about this, and after a while decided to approach.

"Your Majesty, forgive me for intruding," the old man said. "What is this book that you are studying so diligently?"

"This is no ordinary book," the King said, holding it up with great respect. "It is written by a wise sage."

The old man asked: "Is this sage still alive, Your Majesty?"

The King shook his head. "No, he passed away a long time ago."

"Oh, I see," the old man nodded. Then, without thinking, he added: "In that case, what Your Majesty is reading would simply be the leftovers of a dead man."

This struck the King as incredibly insulting. "What is this?" His anger flared. "You are nothing more than a lowly craftsman. Is it your place to comment on what I wish to read? Explain the reasoning of your statement and I may let you live. If you fail to do so, I shall have your head."

The old man replied: "Your Majesty, it is exactly as you say: I am but a humble craftsman. I know nothing except the art of making wheels. Permit me to explain myself to you using this little bit of knowledge that I have."

This response surprised the King. To him, making wheels and reading books could not be further apart. Had the old man lost his mind due to fear? King Huan was puzzled, but his interest was piqued. "Go on," he said.

"Your Majesty, in my line of work, the hole in the center is of supreme importance. It must fit the axle just right. If I make it too big, the wheel will slip right off and become useless. If it is only slightly too big, then the wheel will seem to stay on, but after a short while of actual usage on the roads, it will loosen and fall off the axle, quite possibly causing great damage to the carriage in the process.

"On the other hand, it is also possible to make the hole too small. In that case, when I force the axle into it, I may very well split the wheel in two, thus wasting hours of effort. If it is only slightly too small, then it may appear to be a secure fit, but after a short while of actual usage, the wheel will crack and break apart, again causing possible harm to the carriage and even the passengers within.

"Therefore, one secret of my trade is to know the right way to make the hole. But making the hole just right, not too big and not too small, requires years of non-stop practice. This experience gives me a feeling that guides my hand. It is a feeling I have learned to trust, for it is never wrong.

"The other secret of my trade has to do with the roundness of the wheel. If I chisel away at the wheel too quickly, I may be able to complete the work in a short time, but the wheel won't be perfectly round. Even though it may look quite acceptable upon casual inspection, in actual usage it will cause excessive shaking of the carriage. The ride will be extremely uncomfortable, and the wheel will damage itself beyond repair in a matter of days.

"Of course, I can chisel slowly and carefully. This guarantees a perfectly round wheel, but it will also take so much time to complete that Your Majesty would have to wait many years before we can assemble the royal fleet of carriages. Clearly, this would not be acceptable.

"In order to create the best wheels possible in a timely manner, I must chisel at just the right speed - not too fast and not too slow. This speed is also guided by a feeling, which again can only be acquired through many years of experience. With this feeling, I can be perfectly composed and unhurried when I make my wheels, but still complete the project on time.

"I can teach the mechanics of wheel making to anyone. It is easy to create something that looks like a wheel, but quite difficult to make wheels that are durable, safe, and provide a smooth ride. I can explain all of this to my son, but it is impossible for me to give him the feeling that is at the heart of the wheel making art. He must gain that on his own. This is why I am seventy years old and still making wheels.

"Your Majesty, the ancient sages possessed the feelings that were at the heart of their mastery. Using words, they could set down the mechanics of their mastery in the form of books, but just as it is impossible for me to pass on my experience to anyone else, it is equally impossible for them to transmit their essence of wisdom to you. Their feelings died when they passed away. The only things they left behind were their words. This is why I said Your Majesty was reading the leftovers of a dead man."

Now that Victor Mair's "Wandering on the Way" has turned up it is shedding a lot more light on Chang Tzu. It certainly made chapter 35 (the one I had the most immediate problems with) more understandable, now that I know it was intended as a review of “current” thinkers.

Will try to get around to scanning out a few interesting translations but there are so many active threads at the moment

Actually that should be chapter 33

There certainly is a lot more meaning to Chang Tzu than you get from a cursory glance. I can see why people recommend Victor Mair. Easily the most useful translation, although I do still enjoy Thomas Merton's poetic style, and I feel Merton captures the meaning well.

Thomas Merton end of chap 19. (full quote 1st post)


That is just beautiful, Mair (and Palmer) cannot come close in terms of poetry IMHO
Victor Mair.
Craftsman Ch'ui could draft as accuratly freehand as if he were using a compas or L square because his fingers evolved with things and he did not caculate with his mind. Therefore, his numinous terrace remained unified and unfettered.
A shoe fits when you forget about your foot; a belt fits when you can forget about your waist; the mind fits when you forget about right and wrong; opportunity fits when there is no internal transformation or external imitation. One who begins with what fits and never experiences what doesn't fit has the fitness that forgets about what fits...

I'm getting a lot more out of Palmers translation now that I have 2 others to compare it with. It interesting to see the slightly different chapter layouts between Mair and Palmer. Using Mair, Palmer becomes readable at last


EDIT: Re-reading all theposts I know now that "Heart" in these sort of texts refers to what we (I) think of as "Mind"
And numinous terrace = Spirit Tower = mind

Will try to do the wheel maker next, couple of differences in the description of how to make wheels
Although I usually stop reading old books for a while after reading that one