How important do you think unconditonal love is on the spirual path?
In some ways, I feel that I have hit a wall in my practice that can only be moved through with unconditional love.
Seems like one of the great challenges. No matter what you have been through or feel is to have unconditional love. How does a parent who's child has been murdered have unconditional love towards the killer? How does someone who has been abused have unconditional love towards their abuser?
In some ways, it feels like no matter how much a person has suffered, unconditional love is really the only real solution.
I think this was one of the great realizations of O'Sensei, the founder of Aikido. To have unconditional love even for someone trying to hurt or even kill you is the true way of the warrior.
Maybe this whole world is some wierd experiement to see if you can have unconditional love even in situations which logically don't call for it.
Seems like a question for a lifetime but would be interested in hearing what people think.
Full Version: Unconditional Love
I agree. Seems unconditional love leads to the second secret inch. I wonder what is the way to the third?
How important do you think unconditonal love is on the spirual path?
In some ways, I feel that I have hit a wall in my practice that can only be moved through with unconditional love.
Seems like one of the great challenges. No matter what you have been through or feel is to have unconditional love. How does a parent who's child has been murdered have uncoditinal love towards the killer? How does someone who has been abused have unconditional love towards their abuser?
In some ways, it feels like no matter how much a person has suffered, unconditional love is really the only real solution.
I think this was one of the great realizations of O'Sensei, the founder of Aikido. To have unconditional love even for someone trying to hurt or even kill you is the true way of the warrior.
Maybe this whole world is some wierd experiement to see if you can have uncodiitonal love even in situations which logically don't call for it.
Seems like a question for a lifetime but would be interested in hearing what people think.
QUOTE(Cameron @ Jan 7 2008, 10:41 PM) 
How important do you think unconditonal love is on the spirual path?
In some ways, I feel that I have hit a wall in my practice that can only be moved through with unconditional love.
Seems like one of the great challenges. No matter what you have been through or feel is to have unconditional love. How does a parent who's child has been murdered have uncoditinal love towards the killer? How does someone who has been abused have unconditional love towards their abuser?
In some ways, it feels like no matter how much a person has suffered, unconditional love is really the only real solution.
I think this was one of the great realizations of O'Sensei, the founder of Aikido. To have unconditional love even for someone trying to hurt or even kill you is the true way of the warrior.
Maybe this whole world is some wierd experiement to see if you can have uncodiitonal love even in situations which logically don't call for it.
Seems like a question for a lifetime but would be interested in hearing what people think.
I don't know.
For me alot of it is learning to forgive myself and others for any so called past mistakes. It's interesting both Max and Michael Winn told me I am too hard on myself. It seems like people who are awakened or gotten anywhere in their practice have learned to forgive and have compassion for themselves and others.
It's been a big challenge for me. Adyashanti points to the possibilty that no real problem exists except in your mind. Sean added an interesting perspective that Taoists say when you start to cultivate your anscestors who might have had issues may start to bother you.
Like, I was practicing Kunlun yesterday and all these negative judgments and feelings started coming up and I asked myself the question "Where is this bullshit coming from?"
It's hard to even see sometimes where these things come from. What aspect of consciousness or where inside you negativity is being housed.
An advaita teacher I met named Nirmala even talked about feeling like he was being attacked when he started his spiritual path. Like there is some unseen, dark resistence to your own awakening.
I just look at it as BS that needs to be "practiced through" now. Probably having an attitude that it's all just part of the scenery and not being attached to it is the way to go. Whether you experience bliss or inner torment, nothing to really hold on to and make stories out of.
practice,practice,practice.
For me alot of it is learning to forgive myself and others for any so called past mistakes. It's interesting both Max and Michael Winn told me I am too hard on myself. It seems like people who are awakened or gotten anywhere in their practice have learned to forgive and have compassion for themselves and others.
It's been a big challenge for me. Adyashanti points to the possibilty that no real problem exists except in your mind. Sean added an interesting perspective that Taoists say when you start to cultivate your anscestors who might have had issues may start to bother you.
Like, I was practicing Kunlun yesterday and all these negative judgments and feelings started coming up and I asked myself the question "Where is this bullshit coming from?"
It's hard to even see sometimes where these things come from. What aspect of consciousness or where inside you negativity is being housed.
An advaita teacher I met named Nirmala even talked about feeling like he was being attacked when he started his spiritual path. Like there is some unseen, dark resistence to your own awakening.
I just look at it as BS that needs to be "practiced through" now. Probably having an attitude that it's all just part of the scenery and not being attached to it is the way to go. Whether you experience bliss or inner torment, nothing to really hold on to and make stories out of.
practice,practice,practice.
Unconditional love, you can fake it , but you can't practice it although faking it could help, it is a result, not a practice.
As part of the long process of meditation the negativities that arise are opportunities for you to face your own worst enemy. If your meditations are working this negativity will get worse and it will provide the motivation to search for causes.
In order to experience unconditional love you must be able to truly forgive others and truly see things through their eyes. In order to do that you must be able to absolutely forgive yourself. Before you do that you must be able to achieve stillness in te. In addition to that you must befriend your own worst enemy. Before you do that you must be able to experience mental stillness (no thought) for extensive periods during day to day activities. Before you do that you must first achieve an enlightenment experience. Before you do that you must be able to experience mental stillness for extensive periods during meditation. Before you do that you must be facing your own worst enemy. Before you do that you must experience all your negativities arising and hounding you like demons and resolve to kill or cure them. Before you do that you need to meditate a bunch. You also need to continue meditating during the whole thing.
Perhaps that's why gurus tell people to fake it till they make it.
As part of the long process of meditation the negativities that arise are opportunities for you to face your own worst enemy. If your meditations are working this negativity will get worse and it will provide the motivation to search for causes.
In order to experience unconditional love you must be able to truly forgive others and truly see things through their eyes. In order to do that you must be able to absolutely forgive yourself. Before you do that you must be able to achieve stillness in te. In addition to that you must befriend your own worst enemy. Before you do that you must be able to experience mental stillness (no thought) for extensive periods during day to day activities. Before you do that you must first achieve an enlightenment experience. Before you do that you must be able to experience mental stillness for extensive periods during meditation. Before you do that you must be facing your own worst enemy. Before you do that you must experience all your negativities arising and hounding you like demons and resolve to kill or cure them. Before you do that you need to meditate a bunch. You also need to continue meditating during the whole thing.
Perhaps that's why gurus tell people to fake it till they make it.
I agree it is a savagely difficult practise to hold on to for an extended length of time, to feel uncondtional love during one's waking hours, while the ego is operating and one isnt in the midst of practise. it is a default setting to revert to an 'us and them' mindset. The way to feel uncondtional love is to realise we are all one, to get rid of the sense of division that the ego loves and needs.
I was thinking of starting a thread about Fear of the Sublime, fear of Exaltation, fear of Bliss. But what is there to say? The ego wants us unmerged with the divine.
I was thinking about mens fear of women's exuality, in conjunction with this, and the endemic making of sex into really quite a small event, physically and spiritually, whilst at the same time making that small event terrifically ever present in our culture.
Love of smallness of feelings, and seperateness, and judgment. We are going against the grain to want Big Feelings, Oneness, and Unconditionality. It's like we dont really want to know our Humanity.
I was thinking of starting a thread about Fear of the Sublime, fear of Exaltation, fear of Bliss. But what is there to say? The ego wants us unmerged with the divine.
I was thinking about mens fear of women's exuality, in conjunction with this, and the endemic making of sex into really quite a small event, physically and spiritually, whilst at the same time making that small event terrifically ever present in our culture.
Love of smallness of feelings, and seperateness, and judgment. We are going against the grain to want Big Feelings, Oneness, and Unconditionality. It's like we dont really want to know our Humanity.
QUOTE(cat @ Jan 8 2008, 11:27 AM)
Love of smallness of feelings, and seperateness, and judgment. We are going against the grain to want Big Feelings, Oneness, and Unconditionality. It's like we dont really want to know our Humanity.
Wonderful! Love of smallness and seperateness! If we really do that I guess we dive right into unconditionality
there is something awkward about looking at compassion as
"the right mode", if you get my drift. watching in meditation is about honesty.
don't judge
just watch
while staying with (can you stand it? maybe next time around?)
listen while the ripples fade.
the merging of polarities, the trancendence through intimate encounter with paradoxes....
is the life, sends you to your core and timeless silence, dissolving, expanding
so you can assimilate even further energy..maybe...
i wonder if this unconditional love thus becomes consequence.
sometimes you are left with amen.
"the right mode", if you get my drift. watching in meditation is about honesty.
don't judge
just watch
while staying with (can you stand it? maybe next time around?)
listen while the ripples fade.
the merging of polarities, the trancendence through intimate encounter with paradoxes....
is the life, sends you to your core and timeless silence, dissolving, expanding
so you can assimilate even further energy..maybe...
i wonder if this unconditional love thus becomes consequence.
sometimes you are left with amen.
QUOTE(Cameron @ Jan 8 2008, 12:41 AM)
I think this was one of the great realizations of O'Sensei, the founder of Aikido. To have unconditional love even for someone trying to hurt or even kill you is the true way of the warrior.
QUOTE(DarinHamel @ Dec 8 2007, 04:05 PM)
I should have been scared but I just slipped into a deeper calm. I remember actually feeling a sort of joy.
They spoke among themselves. One of them detached from the group, pointed his pistol at me and pulled the trigger. My joy actually increased and I turned my waist and the bullet whizzed past me. Without moving my feet he shot four more times and each time I just turned my waist and avoided the bullets.
I couldn’t help but smile during this. I could feel his intentions. I knew I was in no danger. He stood there for a little while staring at me. Just as I felt his intentions before, now I knew I was still inside of him, my smile got even bigger and I put joy in his heart. That is the best way I can describe it, my joy overflowed into him. He then began to smile and laugh.
Immediately the tension eased and he waved us away. I got back into the truck and drove back the way we came. After an hour he asked me how I did that. My answer was, “Taijiquan”. After that we returned to base camp with the gun-filled truck and he was sent home.
Interestingly, Morihei also was known to be able to dodge bullets...They spoke among themselves. One of them detached from the group, pointed his pistol at me and pulled the trigger. My joy actually increased and I turned my waist and the bullet whizzed past me. Without moving my feet he shot four more times and each time I just turned my waist and avoided the bullets.
I couldn’t help but smile during this. I could feel his intentions. I knew I was in no danger. He stood there for a little while staring at me. Just as I felt his intentions before, now I knew I was still inside of him, my smile got even bigger and I put joy in his heart. That is the best way I can describe it, my joy overflowed into him. He then began to smile and laugh.
Immediately the tension eased and he waved us away. I got back into the truck and drove back the way we came. After an hour he asked me how I did that. My answer was, “Taijiquan”. After that we returned to base camp with the gun-filled truck and he was sent home.
PS - Dumb ?, but does DarinHamel = drew hempel? I seem to keep getting the 2 confused - or are they the same guy?
not the same guy 
QUOTE(vortex @ Jan 8 2008, 07:24 AM)
Interestingly, Morihei also was known to be able to dodge bullets...
Not sure. From all accounts of people that met him he was a pretty remarkable human being.
Aikido embodies alot of what I am talking about.
For example, if you take Bush or Chaney. These are people who I don't think would do very well in Aikido. Like if they got on the mat(no, I wouldn't beat them up) my guess is they would be very tense, stiff, unable to execute or learn basic technique.
When I watched old clips of Hitler. To me he was also someone who would do very poorly in Aikido. His stiff posture, aggressive movements almost embody the opposite philosophy of Aikido. I want to hurt you, I want to smash you and kill you. Very un-aiki.
To me, you want leaders of countires who would be good at Aikido. They don't need to practice of course but just being more in harmony with that. In many ways, I see our present leadership, as well as the leadership in many other countries, as being the opposite of that. People who embody violence in positions of great power.
However, when I watch Senator Obama I think he is someone who could be good at Aikido. Someone who works problems out in a relaxed, balanced way before rushing to smash and kill people to accomplish his goals(which we know is pointless and counter productive).
The flip side is it is probably that violence and insencerity that got many of these people in power in the first place, so it has worked to a point. Probably the leadership of a country is in large part a reflecton of the population of the country in a way. A sad state of affairs, which hopefully will be changing soon.
I love Darin's dodging the bullets thing... way rad!
Here's a cool quote on love:
Developing true love in you is the remedy for that. Love is the right medicine. If you keep loving, loving, loving, loving—loving your enemy, loving your friends, loving your children, loving the plants, loving the cat, loving the animals. Everywhere putting your pure love—no matter what. Then true love is developing. Then automatically your heart, your mind, your soul will get tuned as true pure love. Whatever is happening, once you tune yourself to be a pure loving person, there’s no chance these types of blocks will develop in you. So you need to develop that to create your success. Whenever love is there automatically you’ll start forgiving. You won’t see a tiny problem through a big lens. Whenever there’s no love, you see a small problem with a huge lens—then it really becomes bigger. Then the big problems start.
Here's a cool quote on love:
Developing true love in you is the remedy for that. Love is the right medicine. If you keep loving, loving, loving, loving—loving your enemy, loving your friends, loving your children, loving the plants, loving the cat, loving the animals. Everywhere putting your pure love—no matter what. Then true love is developing. Then automatically your heart, your mind, your soul will get tuned as true pure love. Whatever is happening, once you tune yourself to be a pure loving person, there’s no chance these types of blocks will develop in you. So you need to develop that to create your success. Whenever love is there automatically you’ll start forgiving. You won’t see a tiny problem through a big lens. Whenever there’s no love, you see a small problem with a huge lens—then it really becomes bigger. Then the big problems start.
QUOTE(Yoda @ Jan 8 2008, 12:32 PM)
Developing true love in you is the remedy for that. Love is the right medicine. If you keep loving, loving, loving, loving—loving your enemy, loving your friends, loving your children, loving the plants, loving the cat, loving the animals. Everywhere putting your pure love—no matter what. Then true love is developing. Then automatically your heart, your mind, your soul will get tuned as true pure love. Whatever is happening, once you tune yourself to be a pure loving person, there’s no chance these types of blocks will develop in you. So you need to develop that to create your success. Whenever love is there automatically you’ll start forgiving. You won’t see a tiny problem through a big lens. Whenever there’s no love, you see a small problem with a huge lens—then it really becomes bigger. Then the big problems start.
very nice
"small problem through a big lens"
isn't that what most problems are?
Unconditional love is what seperates the haves from the have nots.
It comes of it's own accord through witnessing and compassion.
A simple shift in consciousness.
It comes of it's own accord through witnessing and compassion.
A simple shift in consciousness.
QUOTE
Unconditional love is what seperates the haves from the have nots.
It comes of it's own accord through witnessing and compassion.
A simple shift in consciousness.
It comes of it's own accord through witnessing and compassion.
A simple shift in consciousness.
nice!
............
To those who have truly attempted unconditional love, it is a daunting challenge requiring great spiritual strength. To have tried is a great gesture. To have failed is human. To have succeeded is Divine.
Only a few who have walked this earth have truly achieved unconditional love. Over the past century, Ghandhi, Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mother Teresa come to mind as people who have come close. To the outside world they seem to have achieved unconditional love. However, when you read their writings, in their hearts they don't believe the got there; they believe there are levels that they did not achieve.
I once asked a Christian minister how a person could get there spiritually. He replied honestly that he believed you must be born with a special spiritual capacity, and only a few are so fortunate.
To attempt unconditional love is a goal that one understands going into it will not be fully attained. However, I believe this is perhaps the highest and most worthwhile of all ambitions.
Only a few who have walked this earth have truly achieved unconditional love. Over the past century, Ghandhi, Martin Luther King, Jr. and Mother Teresa come to mind as people who have come close. To the outside world they seem to have achieved unconditional love. However, when you read their writings, in their hearts they don't believe the got there; they believe there are levels that they did not achieve.
I once asked a Christian minister how a person could get there spiritually. He replied honestly that he believed you must be born with a special spiritual capacity, and only a few are so fortunate.
To attempt unconditional love is a goal that one understands going into it will not be fully attained. However, I believe this is perhaps the highest and most worthwhile of all ambitions.
lol
Unconditional love, you can fake it , but you can't practice it although faking it could help, it is a result, not a practice.
As part of the long process of meditation the negativities that arise are opportunities for you to face your own worst enemy. If your meditations are working this negativity will get worse and it will provide the motivation to search for causes.
In order to experience unconditional love you must be able to truly forgive others and truly see things through their eyes. In order to do that you must be able to absolutely forgive yourself. Before you do that you must be able to achieve stillness in te. In addition to that you must befriend your own worst enemy. Before you do that you must be able to experience mental stillness (no thought) for extensive periods during day to day activities. Before you do that you must first achieve an enlightenment experience. Before you do that you must be able to experience mental stillness for extensive periods during meditation. Before you do that you must be facing your own worst enemy. Before you do that you must experience all your negativities arising and hounding you like demons and resolve to kill or cure them. Before you do that you need to meditate a bunch. You also need to continue meditating during the whole thing.
Perhaps that's why gurus tell people to fake it till they make it.
QUOTE(Starjumper7 @ Jan 8 2008, 12:23 AM)
Unconditional love, you can fake it , but you can't practice it although faking it could help, it is a result, not a practice.
As part of the long process of meditation the negativities that arise are opportunities for you to face your own worst enemy. If your meditations are working this negativity will get worse and it will provide the motivation to search for causes.
In order to experience unconditional love you must be able to truly forgive others and truly see things through their eyes. In order to do that you must be able to absolutely forgive yourself. Before you do that you must be able to achieve stillness in te. In addition to that you must befriend your own worst enemy. Before you do that you must be able to experience mental stillness (no thought) for extensive periods during day to day activities. Before you do that you must first achieve an enlightenment experience. Before you do that you must be able to experience mental stillness for extensive periods during meditation. Before you do that you must be facing your own worst enemy. Before you do that you must experience all your negativities arising and hounding you like demons and resolve to kill or cure them. Before you do that you need to meditate a bunch. You also need to continue meditating during the whole thing.
Perhaps that's why gurus tell people to fake it till they make it.
O'Sensei was regarded by his fellow Shinto as a Diety returned to the world with the great mission of saving humanity. Cam is right. Unconditional love is where it's at. We are already loved unconditionaly. Giving away freely what is always given in great abundace at all times only seems difficult. Opening up allows free flowing love, and compassion, and bliss, and everything...O'Sensei's name means Abundant Peace.
Interestingly, Morihei also was known to be able to dodge bullets...
PS - Dumb ?, but does DarinHamel = drew hempel? I seem to keep getting the 2 confused - or are they the same guy?
QUOTE(vortex @ Jan 8 2008, 06:24 AM)
Interestingly, Morihei also was known to be able to dodge bullets...
PS - Dumb ?, but does DarinHamel = drew hempel? I seem to keep getting the 2 confused - or are they the same guy?
I like loving kindness meditation (although I don't do it that much anymore) and I like to practice unconditional love on the people who try to kill me in the traffic each day, more fun than geting angry But really not sure how I would go showing unconditional love to a person who hurt or killed something important to me.
It's a bit of a cop out but I think a good birth situation really helps with this. I'm in a 1st world country and have everything I want with little effort and minimal pain. So it's much easier for me to feel unconditional love than someone who is in an abusive relationship or suffering in pain.
But really not sure how I would go showing unconditional love to a person who hurt or killed something important to me. It's a bit of a cop out but I think a good birth situation really helps with this. I'm in a 1st world country and have everything I want with little effort and minimal pain. So it's much easier for me to feel unconditional love than someone who is in an abusive relationship or suffering in pain.
QUOTE(Cameron @ Jan 7 2008, 10:41 PM)
How important do you think unconditonal love is on the spirual path?
Wow. What a huge topic. I'm no more wiser on this question than you.
At this point in my life, I try to empty myself and remind myself that any impulse I feel other than love, that impulse is just trying to teach me what I need to learn. I spend my day letting go and allowing the bliss to flow, as best I'm able.
Thank you for being my teacher.
Love.
AugustLeo
Btw, the Dalai Lama has said that "affection" is a better word than compassion or love.
QUOTE(Yoda @ Jan 9 2008, 03:06 PM)
Btw, the Dalai Lama has said that "affection" is a better word than compassion or love.
I think brotherly love also has its problems as it witnessed by anyone who's had a brother. The problems of brotherly love is abundantly displayed in the bible. Starting w/ Cain and Able down to the Patriarchs.
I think we have to aim for Grandmotherly love. The 'You're doing great, have a cookie and a hug' kind of love.
Michael
It was critical to my evolution.
Unbearable pain relieved. Incredible goals achieved.
Love is the ultimate power for change.
Unbearable pain relieved. Incredible goals achieved.
Love is the ultimate power for change.
QUOTE(thelerner @ Jan 9 2008, 03:14 PM)
I think brotherly love also has its problems as it witnessed by anyone who's had a brother.
as an adopted philadelphian, i've seen first hand how negative "brotherly love" can be.
we're the city of brotherly love and one of the highest murder rates in the states.
I think TTC 6 may be about this subject.
I'm a fan, but mostly because Fred Rogers was.
I'm a fan, but mostly because Fred Rogers was.
For me, there is an oximoran in the expression "unconditional" anything...
IF We live in the now, the conditions are part of the experience and an important factor in what is needed from us...
I understand that love can be manifested by the will of the lover... but then it seems a very conditioned response indeed, but otherwise - the love that manifests without effort has the purity at least in my experience-
We love those whom we love easily, because of how they make us feel...-loving...
It is what people bring out in/from us that creates the relationships we live within...
The constant fulness of unconditional love seems to be a false concept for the most part. One that only the truely evolved could muster. Who are we to assume that we can also attain such levels of enlightenment?..
.
Tis possible over several lifetimes I hear, but for us each to assume that possibility here and now seems a huge leap forward on an evolutionary level...
Away from our animal natures and towards the "godhead" as it were...
That may be what we seek within to attain in its purest sense, only a few will be there this time around...
Perhaps the percentages are better amongst the Bums though we tend to be trying pretty hard as a demographic !!!
This is a "lo-fi" version of our main content. To view the full version with more information, formatting and images, please click here.