I think this post might be a long time coming.

It's almost a seperate religious or sociological study. But those of us who have spent time in the Taoist tradition over the years online have seen it again and again.

Why is there so much disrespect in the Taoist traditon?

First it might be better to phrase the question "Why is there so much disrespect in students of the Taoist tradition?"

Pretty much a consistent string I have seen over the years is a sort of superiority complex people into Tao develop about their teachers. Actually, someone just recently highlited the issue in a recent post saying "My teacher can beat up your teacher."

But I think the issue runs deeper than that .And rather than resorting to immaturity or anger I would like to take a critical, objective look at this issue.

I am sure everyone will have excellent feedback and a different perspective. Here are 4 main reasons I can think of.

1. Taoists tend to work heavily with sexual energy. For men, this excess sexual energy can become volitile and unbalanced and then express itself in an unbalanced or angry way.

2. It's a Chinese cultural issue. Chinese test and challenge eachother as part of their culture. Disrespecting and insulting another school has some sort of cultural significance. Students of Chinese teachers perhaps pick up these bad habits from their teacher.

3. Taoism has a strong connection to martial artists. What do many martial artists like to do? Fight! Very simple(Though I like to think more evolved martial artists go beyond the ego, that is really a high level, we all have ego, as martial artist myself I can relate to this).

4. It's an American issue. Most high level Taoist Masters are perhaps not disrespectful. It is the western students who learn from "The Real Taoist Master" and then brag about how great their teacher and lineage is and their teacher or lineage is far better than someone elses.

I will say I have not heard any disrespect from two Taoist teachers I have met, Ken Cohen and Max Christenson. In the 2 times I have met both of them their behavior and integrity was to be admired and both seem to have integrated energy practices and good behavior and virtue. I am sure other people have had positive experiences with Taoist teachers that don't have a disrespectful tone so I will add a 5th possible reason.

5. It all has to do with the mode of communication(internet) and people would be less disrespectful if face to face.

do they also do barmitsvas?

All very true.

I think a part of the problem is that it is human nature to aggressively defend your own world, be that your family, country, or knowledge.

All I know is that we always show respect for other schools, because we understand that all is learning and the fact that you are even looking into spiritual evolution is a very good and not so common thing.

More of this is better.

If there is a new technique that we come across, we try it to see the effect and either incorporate it or let it go.

Many schools have much to offer.

Max even still learns from others. We ended the year by spending the weekend with the highest known Tibetan spiritual master. He is a true Mahasiddha and spent over an hour meeting with Max about Kunlun and Rainbow Body.

We are all still recovering from that meeting. Things are very different for us now. The Mahasiddha recognized the Kunlun as a very effective method that he wants us to share with his people. The Ngondro and other Tibetan techniques are things we will incorporate into our practice.

Cross pollination is a very healthy thing.

If you can back off from an arrogant position you allow new enriching possibilities that will take you further than you could have gotten alone.

We never stop learning.

Ok. Barmitzvas. lol.

Well, Ken is Jewish by birth so he would be the first to ask that I guess

Treading the surface,
Division breeds contention,
One ocean, one mind.

Countless paths to climb.
But I travel one alone.
It must be best!

Also, maybe it is a scholorly issue and am sure everyone will have a different take.

But do you think the blending that took place between Taoism and Buddhism in China took place for a good reason? Perhaps Buddhism had alot to offer to improve on what Taoists were doing and Tao stuff had alot to offer what the Buddhists were doing.

It seems the teachers I have been most attracted to in Tao like Max or Ken are lineage Taoists and also very Buddhist(Max even being a recongized "Tulku")

I don't know. Just seems the Taoist training by itself tends to leave huge gaps in ones development. But the Taoist training can help things along and prevent Buddhist meditation from becoming stagnant.

And I guess the Chinese also emphasized Conficism which appears to be cultivating ones behavior and interaction in society as a mode of awakening.

I think Ken says in China people blend all 3 and consider them complementary.

There is an old Chinese saying:

Confusciousism is my cloak,
Buddhism is my cane,
Taoism is my sandal.

All I got to say about this... I sometimes go back and forth not realizing fully that I'm saying something is really wrong. While I might specially entering into a martial arts place (DO NOT JUDGE) But I do realize often times lots of things that are different and from what i learned incorrect. Personally i think my teaching of Chinese Martial Arts isn't very good one, ridged and different, while my understanding of the way it isn't ridged at all, but yet flowing. The softer it is, the more gentle it is, the more it is like water making valleys (a path) through mountains.

But I must say almost every martial artist I've met and learned a few things here and there, they all do make fun of others or disrespect other martial artists. To me this is one key thing when I see makes them a bad martial artist... no matter how good the teaching is if the teacher does this disrespectful thing i immediately flee from learning from them again.

I have some serious issues... (as of late... or for a few months before I came on this forum) I can tell you I never always had these issues. The way I must come across when one talks about something they don't understand as if they understand I feel the need to come in a clear things up. This way might be slightly vicious and i would also like to apologize for it. I am currently trying not to do it again. Even though it might not come across very strong it is still very wrong. I know this post was not blaming me. But i felt a need just to say this. Get it out of my system, and explain it to everyone else that I do keep good practices in mind, and try and become a better person even though I'm not necessarily in a better place.

...........

Hey I have turned over a new leaf this year and am trying to be a uniter not a divider.

Whatever you mean by that totally went over my head.

You asked me "who Disses who?" if you would like to know I might be willing to tell you privately. Some where internal martial artists, some were external martial artists and some were both. What do you mean what about my compulsive ranking list btw? and Kosher? I'll remember to laugh later But as for publically saying certain teachers names (teachers that aren't mentioned on this forum thank god, from what I've read in all the posts so far) But there are many. Almost every martial artist teacher I have met. I often ask when asking to find a new teacher, is the person extremely high spiritually. Most people say yes, meaning his skills are very high, his Qigong practice is very good, maybe even Nei Gong, or Internal Alchemy. Which of course by the time I totally flee from them they didn't teach me any of that that stuff on a deeper level, (where they impart some good teachings to me) I was just scratching the outer surface. But yeah, as if there all fighters and braking me down.

In my personal opinion, what i have practiced in the past has been so in my own privacy. Almost 100% around me were not peaceful people. That were trying to do harm in some sort of way. Lead me off my path. How do you trust these people like this. You want to learn the good stuff people have to teach you but can I bare the bad stuff they bring to the table, or try and get me involved with. Its like a consistent battle with almost every single person i meet. Even if I'm doing something wrong... there not in the bad at all, they can't let me learn from my own mistakes? Of course if I'm completely in the wrong they shouldn't support my burden, do they want to eventually fall like me? In my personal prospective I truly believe 100% people should not brake you down, but give you building block to strengthen yourself so then you can let go of whatever bad tools you are wielding. Maybe this isn't the right way and I'm completely wrong, and thats the answer why I am currently suffering. But let it be known at least i don't try and balance it out. So i can live with myself as a person that does continuously bad things to whatever small degree or big degree it could possibly be.

I think she was talking to me

I had some silly behavior going on last year..well..the last 3 months of last year.

But that is all over and am trying to be a uniter not a divider like Barack Obama.

Seriously, I think one of the main things that is a shame is what we miss out on by having these sorts of attitudes.

I mean, could you imagine if Taoist students and teachers really had mutual respect and could freely exchange knowledge without worrying?

Probably the lack of communication has something to do with it.

Actually, on that small video of Max talking on Kunlunbliss he talks about this exact subject. How people from Kunlun don't like Mao Shan because they are into Magic. People from Wudang don't like Kunlun because it's esoteric etc.

I could be getting the order of the schools and who they like or don't like wrong just using as an example.

So, if it has been going on like that in China for thousands of years probably it's not that big a mystery why it translates over here.

Ultimatly, things are the way they are.

Do women say "my teacher can beat your teacher?"


or just the boys?

The road to truth is long and lined the entire way with annoying bastards.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

i think that stopped in kindergarten


and ohhh..5 min later after cruising some other thread..i see what the fuss is about.
l
have no time for it.

hugs to all

We never stop learning.
[/quote]



YES!

aren't we lucky?! i feel so lucky!

have a great day.

Wang Liping was taught by three Taoist teachers, each specializing in separate things. Jiang i believe was also taught by three different teachers, Wang Liping wasn't the only one. In fact (don't qoute me on this) if my understanding is correct i think maybe other teachers from another system ended up teaching Jiang also. I find it very smart at the same time weird with the fact that people from one system don't like another but yet they are willing to end up teaching an inheritor.

there's your answer, boys.

I haven't seem much conflict between different Taoists, except here a little bit. Being disrespectful in a funny way however is a staple of Taoist stories. Maybe those disconcerted by the disrespect in the Taoist tradition are really just disconcerted by the lack of humor?

So a Taoist, Buddhist and Confucian walk into a bar....

Taoist /Zen humour would be so refreshing, but no, Darin, this is about bickering boys again.
ultra tedious, and I dont even read it!

What did the Taoist say to the hot dog vendor?

Make me one with everything.

WonderfuL!

Then the taoist hands over a twenty dollar bill and the vendor just pockets it.

"hang on", says the taoist, "where's my change?"

"change must come from within," replies the vendor.

I'll respond with a question.
Do you think there is more disrespect in the Daoist tradition than others?
That is - does the Daoist tradition differ substantially from other traditions in terms of internal politics?
My answer to your original question would be a paraphrased quote from Osho:
True religion (spirituality, whatever you want to call it) is everything that goes in internally for the individual searching for his/her true nature. Everything else, everything external is politics.

MTC...

i was reading quite a bit about tricksters last summer, and although the trickster is disrespectful, he (sometimes she) does it to change society's view. and it's not a disrespect as much as a turning things upside down, laughing at the sacred, praising the profane.

"Many native traditions held clowns and tricksters as essential to any contact with the sacred. People could not pray until they had laughed, because laughter opens and frees from rigid preconception. Humans had to have tricksters within the most sacred ceremonies for fear that they forget the sacred comes through upset, reversal, surprise. The trickster in most native traditions is essential to creation, to birth." --Byrd Gibbens

so let's all be taoist tricksters, teaching others (when they ask) through laughter, pranks and turning the illusion of this world on its head.



and for the record, i'm a woman and i wouldn't say "my teacher is better than yours"
i work with kids and usually they grow out of that by 7 or 8

Good points - Zen masters certainly tend to be tricksters as well. I love Alan Watts' discussions of the seriousness of religion and the need for humor and enjoyment.

Kids may grow out of it but men don't...

yes! I was reading Alan Watts. have you ever checked out Trickster Makes the World by Lewis Hyde? fascinating discussion about trickster stories and how writers and artists are tricksters in their way.


truth, my friend

I second that about Trickster Makes this World, it was the course material for a humanities course I took some time ago, and I found it to be fantastic. Trickster redefines the boundaries of society, breaking through stagnation. I find myself very drawn to Coyote teachers.

I'll check that out, thanks!

I agree it is essential Tao and Zen to allow the Trickster to flow through one.

The danger is of the ego adopting the guise of a trickster, in order to sabotage and agress. In this way the Trickster double tricks.


It goes without saying that Tricksters dont belong to gangs and argue about whose gang is the best.


And yet there is a Trickster element present even in the most trite of baiting and boasts that go on here - because when someone rises to the bait with querulous voice demanding the trollism not be unfair and diss their gang/treasured beliefs/heavy investment project, they show their vulnerability with the protestations.

I am all for good humor but that was not what I was referring to.

When someone calls one of your teachers a liar,a fake, a charlatan, low level, etc, etc.

Sorry, not funny to me.

Sean illustrated this point better in another thread. It's cool to be yang about your views and express yourself without resorting to trash talking. Especially when it is obviously apparent that you really don't know what you are talking about.

agreed

now

basement ....
music?

and i agree about the trash talking, Cameron. that's why we need to transform the trash vibe into trickster energy, spinning negativity on the board into positivity to our fellow man, both here and out in the world, transforming the thought process from a competition into one of challenging that competitive urge by laughing at it all.

it's freeing to laugh at the most inappropriate times - not laughing at someone's misfortune, but laughing at the absurdity of it all - the "big joke". maybe some people here on the board just need a good belly laugh, yes?

Hi girls. That was me =) A person on my forum asked about a certain practice an upon checking it out I found some people here going ga ga over the latest BS artist. I very much dislike seeing people getting ripped off in the name of my practice and so upon dealing with it in my typically heavy handed manner (I'm not a sissy keyboard artist, I'm a goddamn welder) I noticed a bit of a childish tendency arising in some of the respondents and so decided to, as they say, fuck with their heads. I think it's called trolling =) I hope some enjoyed the attempt at humor.

Bye girls, {{{smooch}}}

Ian and Sean and 'others', I'll get back to you in that thread before too long. I'll tone it down.

Childish tendency? You come here out of the blue calling a teacher alot of us enjoy studying with a liar, a charlatan etc and you call that childish tendency?

Are you smoking crack?

Anyway, I didn't realize Kunlun was "your practice". But as you study with one of the highest Masters living(Haven't we heard all this before but with slighly better manners?) your all set then.

So are you going to leave after trolling us or do you have anything positive to say?

'ello woolface-troll. i believe you missed a t in your name star_jumper. =)

...or as we say in our house hold "..Is he happy now, mr. hansen?".

pfff....

dudes, daoism was never really about fight, it was wu-wei, remember?

it's not about IT, but about what some people make out of it. and whatever they do make out of it, it still is at most, half as disrespectfull as any other spiritual path, it's just its nature, wu-wei, no-fight, no fire.

but what is a good forum without a good yappin'

Yep, and since he is a charlatan, I spoke truth. I guess you missed that?



Nope. I guess you missed that too.



Nope, my practice is Nei Kung. I guess you missed that too, I'm must say that in light of your observational abilities that you seem just the type to get along famously with Max. =)



That information is only given out on a need to know basis.

However, if you look closely you may notice I already offered some constructive criticism about it. I dislike repeating myself but I might just for you, given your observational abilities and all, and do it in a more positive manner.

Have a nice day {{{smooch}}} and drop it!



Yes sometimes, sometimes I end up giggling almost to the point of falling out of my chair.

I'm afraid I don't get the startjumper idea.

I'm afraid I don't get the startjumper idea.
[/quote]

you will

I would like to share an experience in the hopes that it might be useful. I don't mean to imply anything about my opinions on this particular conflict or the individuals involved - just a general outlook.

I recently went through a time when a particularly viscious guy was on a public character assasination attempt against my shifu. His motivation was political but he did his best to cover that up, of course. Needless to say, it upset me quite a bit. I happened to be reading some stuff at the time by J Krishnamurti which was really illuminating. He helped me to begin asking myself questions and going into them very deeply, like: Why do I feel hurt? What does that tell me about my relationship with my shifu and about myself? Who is it, really, that is feeling hurt? Some really valuable insights came out of that for me, some of which were not terribly pleasant or what I would have expected. Overall, however, it was a valuable experience.


YES!!! I can never get enough of them!

LOL. Ok, it's dropped.

I guess I will have to get used to reading you call one of my teachers a charlatan over and over here. How fun.

Thanks for stopping by and sharing your thoughts. Your posts have helped me a lot.

AugustLeo

Hey Dude. You can jump over my star any ole day,you big hunka spunk you.

smooch rightbackatcha, and then some.

this board doesnt have a "DONT FEED THE TROLLS" policy, I noticed that before. rich pickings.

Illigitimus noncarbarundum...(dont let the bastards wear ya down)