Seems to me (deep breath) that the whole "my practice is better than your practice" thing could be undermined nicely if we established that different people's practices are designed to achieve different results, and therefore not better or worse, just different.

Yet this is very hard to establish, because in virtually no cases, in my experience, does anyone speak clearly about what the ultimate goal of their practice is.

I don't know why this is, because the ultimate goal of a practice, should, in my opinion, be the most important thing about it.

If one were being uncharitable, one might assume that the silence on this topic is largely because people are embarrassed to admit that don't really know/never dared to ask their teacher. Or because they kind of know where they think they're going, but can't quite see how their current practice is going to get them there.

If one were slightly kinder one might think that people are embarrassed to mention the goal of their practice because it's either

a very abstract seeming spiritual destination which others might mock as unreal, or
a very mundane goal of heath and contentment which others might mock as unambitious.

So, would anyone care to state their destination? Especially anyone who thinks their practice is superior to anything else?

At the very least, we could make a division between between practices pointing towards liberation and practices pointing towards immortality, if those goals are still considered different these days.

Although I am not one who thinks my practices are better than those of others, I would like to state my goal.

My goal is that of complete enlightenment as found in the sutras. Along the way I would like to teach others what I know and help heal some poorly folk too.

Patience, compassion and charity are my tools.

My goal is ascension.

Edit: Ooops, I dont think my practice is better than anyone elses.

...............

My experience is that's somewhere in the right ball-park. Most of the groups I've been in, the actual level of coherent understanding by students, group-as-whole, has been abysmal. People'd say their goal was "enlightenment", and they'd maybe have a few scattered ideas about what it might be like but mostly unknown. And clear understanding of process was as sketchy or worse. Mostly just inspiration to be around an accomplished teacher, practicing, and hoping that it'd come together at some point.

Deep question.

I don't know the answer.

At this point, balancing all of the different dimensions of "self" and gaining clarity about reality seems where it is at.

To be prepared for death, and to live without fear.

Thanks to those who have answered.

Anyone else? I'm always amazed how few people want to respond to this topic.

It's a bit scary to put your goal out there...........

there is also the "first rule of fight club" to think about

Ian

You are so right on.

this is not a fun one to respond to it is fundamental and self exposing.

I have tried in a roundabout way to ask such a question myself in my Neigong thread. What are the goals of Neigong?

Anyway my goals:

Vibrant health.
Longevity.
Inner peace.
Spiritual knowledge.
Healing ability.

Oh yeah, almost forgot. Immortality...he he.

I mean why not. If you are gonna be a bear, might as well be a grizzlie.

I think I have gone a little way down the road with 3-4 of these. Long way to go, no arrival, just going on the way. Tao

And yes my answer is partially tongue in cheek. And no, I don't know what enlightenment means.

Craig

I think the problem I have with exercises in finding an ultimate goal is that, trying to find it in my mind, pretty soon I drop into a thoughtless state and see something like Tao (what "I" really am) is Whole and needs nothing that a dance of thoughts and desires called Sean can rationally articulate as an end-goal for himself.

I'll try anyway:

Happiness + Clarity + Tranquility +
Love / Mudita + Bliss + Passion + Charisma + Health +
Wealth + Power + Aesthetics + Compassion + Purpose

Sean

most people are hard wired for their destiny. it figures that if your goals are set for you already anyway, there is no much use in defining them.

i don't think that's what einstein felt when he said "I want to know God's thoughts; the rest are details."

just trying to get back home

Very well put and sobering post Ian. Quite worthy of a genuine attempt at a sincere reply.
Clearly one of the tougher questions we can wrestle with but here goes...

I am actually trying to be in a "let go" as Osho liked to call it -
I don't want to have a goal and I don't want to not have a goal
at the same time, I'm looking to connect deeply with life, for what else is there to do?
and when all is said and done I hope to be remembered as having been compassionate.
Thoreau put it well: "I wanted to live deeply and suck all the marrow out of life..."

Having a goal or not having a goal both arise from the illusion of duality. There is no separation so of what use is a goal? I see this fundamental truth but it is another thing altogether to remain in the world and live it. My illusory, or should I say transient, goals are to provide as much security and nourishment for my family and loved ones as I can, to provide the best possible care for my patients, and to be a good teacher, student, and training partner at my school. Behind that is the knowledge that it's all a game not to be taken too seriously so that there doesn't have to be so much suffering.

My practice methods are no better (or worse) than any others. No method can show you the truth. Method is folly but understanding this does not mean you cannot practice and derive benefit and enjoyment from the practice. The truth emcompasses all methods but one must transcend method to reach it. Methods are useful but ultimately limiting. The same is true for gurus. Method implies duality, guru implies duality. They are necessary for most people to guide them to the door, and many methods can do that well, but you must open it and step through yourself, naked, vulnerable, and without desire or goal. No one can do that for you and the process is necessarily unique for each of us.

There are gurus out there that have an aura of insincerity and exploitation about them. I respond to them negatively and make my opinions known in an effort to help people avoid pain and disappointment. Once I've spoken my piece, I let it go and move on, as I've done on this forum. Beyond that, I try not to denigrate anyone's practices.

einstein was an ultimate plagiarist and a fraud, what a fraud says is inconsequential.

aha? close friend of yours, he was?

ROFL, I love your posting style Procurator but that is dam funny.
A bit of humor in this sort of thread is good.

Fear is the scary thing for me. I know that everytime I confront it, it’s never that bad. Or if it is bad it isn’t as bad as imagined it was going to be. But it’s hard to be rid of it. I hope I can die o.k. but I still feel some fear about it (silly but true) and may take up Amitābha ‘s offer

p.s. Searching how to spell that and just noticed the references to Padme Amidala from starwars Om Mani Padme Hum very cool

I think part of the difficulty with stating a goal is that they change. I doubt very many of us have had the same goals throughout our practice. Perhaps part of this is that the practice itself changes us, and our goals with it. Part of it may be because as we progress, our ignorance decreases, and we begin to learn what is possible and what is valuable. When we achieve our goals, are we really fulfilled?

When I was younger, I dreamed of becoming rich and hedonistic. Now, older and more experienced, I understand that these things do not fulfill. When I started my practice, I wanted to not feel like a worm in a frying pain. Now that suffering has diminished, this goal is no good.

Perhaps setting a goal limits us and our practice. Enjoying the practice for itself allows us to travel wherever the road takes us. We are not looking for specific fruits, and are able to reap the gifts we receive. Perhaps the greatest goal is to move beyond them.

The goal of my practice is to never be born into this or any other world again. I wish to break the cycle of death and rebirth.

Also a correct and complete understanding of the workings of the multiverse, or enlightenment would be a close second goal. I would also like to be able to heal and help other beings who seek the same goals.

Ditto.


Thanks for putting it in more words than I would have thought of.

I was just gonna go with "happiness" but this is much better.

Goals are interesting.

Personally I believe that the "I" that makes goals is so narrow and limited in its ability to see what is possible (or just what 'is') that it's not to be trusted with something as important and broad as spiritual growth.

There is another "I" that just leads, or flows - it's hard to explain because the "I" that explains is the same as the I that makes goals...

Of course these limited "I's" are not to be ignored and forgotten because they're not so 'spiritual' - I still make small goals - I would like to have less internal auditory dialogue and more internal visual 'thought' - I would like to soften my body - I would like to learn more about anger...

Making a goal means creating separation, limiting consciousness and being specific - it's part of the deal. So the achievement of your goal will always be dual, limited and specific.

Enlightenment or wu-wei or whatever you may think as a possible 'ultimate goal' is on the opposite end of the spectrum - it's vague, non-spcific, non-dual and unlimited.

so making a goal (limited) to achieve enlightenment (unlimited) is like trying to capture the entire universe in a cup.

So the best way to use goals, as far as I'm concerned, is to make them very specific and very limited and then letting it all go and becoming unlimited and general, then let that go and settle in the middle and watch the two dance - part of the dance will be achieving your goal or getting something even better, something you might never have expected.

Ian, I'm sure you'll have a certain reaction to my 'relativityness', and I'm pretty sure the above will make little sense. If you feel like it, ask me specific questions and I'll give you specific answers and lets see if we can capture a satisfying cup-full of the universe.

PS - this reminds me of a little drill I used to do - I would stare at something very intently, focusing all my awareness on a single point, and when it's achieved I would broaden my focus, start to open up my peripheral vision and extend my awareness in all directions, trying to take in 'everything' rather than 'something' - when I settled into that I would again narrow my focus on something specific and then back again - trying to do this faster each round... when I reached a certain speed of going back and forth, it turned very strange - the two started to blend and I started to experience one within another - neither being specific nor being general - somewhere in the middle, but also encompassing both - and that's when I started witnessing the dance that happens - this was very pleasant and nourishing...

i was going to post a list of them, but then i remembered i didnt precisely know, that if the first goal fulfills, would i have any interest any more in all the rest of the goals...

first goal would be to be whole and complete again

Ian

Thank you for posting a really good question.

I don't think it's because people are afraid or embarassed that they don't verbalize or state their goals here or elsewhere.

In truth I think it's because the goal or goals are clouded by two very complex aspects:

1. As you go into spiritual cultivation, the inital goals or reasons for practicing change or dissappear.
For me this has happened for a number of reasons, but mostly these:
a) I realize the naive or childish foundation on which these were established
I had transformative experiences that made these goals irrelevant, or better yet absurd

2. Going through life, facing it's challenges and chaos, the reason you do what you do are mostly not very articulated, or conscious. (if you are not a monk, and has taken vows). For many, including me, the reason I cultivate are a mix of delusions of grandeur, the need to ease the pain of life, a refuge, a place of hope, a state of comfort, security, control, wanting to be special, remove myself from the mundane reality of life, become a little modern day recluse, etc. etc. And in that sense, I am not very different from the average gym rat, anorectic, workaholic, or poser. Most of these are not goals per se, but forces of motivation. As for the goals for practice proper, these are very seldom truly sincere. With real sincerity comes responsibility, and that's scary.

But maybe the real reason I feel that there is very little about my practice that is related to the goals of practice is this: The practice very seldom leads me in the direction of my conscious goals:
I want peace but experience hardship
I need health, but experience recurring health problems
I seek wisdom, insight and security but are faced with confusion, turmoil and doubt.

And directly related to practice, all the sensations of what I felt was "correct" practice has now, for most, dissapeared. Not alot of chi sensation, no tangible signs of "transformation", and so the hunger for "rewards" in my practice is dwelling in this really vague, undefined space where form and sitting is just what it is: practice. And mostly it feels really meaningless.

My master warned against this, and said that most people drop out at this stage.

h

The goal of my practice is for becoming healthy and happy.

My practice is for health, longevity and spiritual growth for hermits.

My practice is for cultivating high levels of energy for healing, bliss, and psychic purposes.

My practice is sometimes called the path of the sorcerer.

....................

Your honesty and self awareness continue to inspire me. Nice one!

giving up is underrated. give up. give up completely. give up to the point that there is nothing more to give up. give up your most treasured goals, values, memories and fantasies.

...this opens the front channel - going down into the abyss of nothingness (also 'everythingness'). Out of this nothingness may arise an impulse for 'somthingness' - and we go back up from the deep, dark depths, up to the singular, individual light of the head and as this flower blooms, we go back down, giving up the light, giving up the seductive beauty of the mind, and so the cycle repeats... This is the microcosmic, as i see it at the moment (I'll give up on this idea in about 17 seconds )

rain - I like your posts - there is a real tempo, rhythm to the words sometimes - are you 'musical'?

Hello Ian,
I haven't answered you before because I haven't read this thread.

I would like to point out the goal of my school as well as my goals.

My school, from a meditation point of view, has two goals for the practitioner. The first is to become a human being, the second to become one with the tao. Now in such school you don't even engage in the question if you want to go for the second unless you have achieved the first. So right now all I am working on, in respect to what I learn from this school, is about how to become a human being.

Now about my personal goal. It is more a sensation that is guiding me, than an intellectual goal.

There some activities that I engage in that satisfy me in a very deep way. It is very clear to me that those activities are satisfying to me for something that is somehow unique in me. You would have a different set of activities, for example. Although we might find ourself to have a lot of the search in common when we both ask ourself, " ok, what makes sense for me to do in this point in time". But then the answer that we get would be different.

One of such activity is academic research, for example.
And so on.

I see myself as a flower that is opening (Sorry for the gay image, it is probably the first time I share it, and with reason). As the flower is closed it is difficult to distinguish the petals. Each petal is a passion. One would be Academic research, another would be traveling, and so on.

As I experience life, the petals have the possibility to open up. It is not always easy. Sometimes it is scary. Often you need to throw away all you have achieved so far to let the next petal open up. But as each petal open up, I learn more and more about myself. I know more and more the answer to the question "who am I?".

So my goal is to fully open this flower.

I think the Chinese term is to develop my Ming. Or to return to my Ming. Or to embody my Ming. Or to do something with or toward my Ming (Ming as Destiny, 命).

Now if you consider that, again in my school a prerequisite to receive in the second part of the training (the one that goes from being a human being to being one with the tao) you need to be able to answer with no doubt at the question "who am I", you can see how my goals at this point and the goal of my school are in line.

I hope I answered your question satisfactorily.

And yes, very good question.

...............

not really dissolving opposites, but rather 'joining'... it's kind of 'sexual'.

................

i got lost behind I when i was 14. It was a long road back.

-to remain present with those who will return, and for those who will never leave.

So am I the only guy here who wants to ascend or at least attain physical immortality while I figure out the ascension thing? Thats the only reason I am interested in Taoism, BTW.

All the relax and do nothing talk sounds like loser talk to me but I am a very action oriented person. I do understand the surfer mentality of "Its all good" and non-striving and that those people might live a happier life than me but goals and action make me tick.

Seriously, am I the only person here seeking the literal Taoist Immortality status?

I do not wish to be born again. If that means immortality, or eternal rest I am content with either outcome. That is what I seek.

I agree about necessary action, it seems to me most people here don't really care about accomplishing anything, they just want to live happy lives.

I want to be liberated, and I agree with you.

Today my goal is to get my head around the idea that the Tao is a pathway that binds all, everything, any, each, as well as nothing, in a cosmic unity...

As If It is some sort of universal nervous system... and then realize that aspect is only one small aspect of the Tao and not the Tao we allude to here...

If I can put my mind into that greater concept for a while I will be quite happy...

Tomorrow I will think of places to fish in the spring...

Darin - EXACTLY! - 'loser talk'

Losing is what it's all about - at least for me.


Although you do have a really narrow, stereotypical idea of what someone 'going with the flow' is like - I've met maybe one person who I would consider as 'going with the flow' totally - he also happens to be the only person I've met that I could remotely consider 'enlightened', and he's very active, very successful (in the monetary sense) and tends to very quickly become excellent at whatever he turns his hand to. However everything he does is spontaneous, there is no planning, no 'consideration' or verbal/deductive/logical thought process.

Since you're a fan of goal making, you may know that one of the most important steps is answering this question in very exact, specific detail: how would you know that you got what you wanted? (any scientist here would see the profound importance of this).

It could be simple: "I want a red ferrari - so I know I've got it when I have the car in my drive with the keys in my hand, and an invoice showing that I own it fully"

so Darin, how would you know that you've achieved immortality or ascended? - if you dont have a very precise, specific answer, then you'll end up chasing after a mental construct - 'you get what you focus on' - if what you focus on is a vague illusory ideal - then you'll get a vague illusion of attainment...

by the way I really respect your drive and dedication, please don't take this as anything other than a friendly discussion and the sharing of personal discoveries.

Ascension means turning my physical body into one or formless energy with my personality/individuality intact and having the ability to from a new physical form anytime I wanted. I see it like on Stargate sorta.

Physical immortality living in this physical body forever or until I achieve the ultimate freedom of ascension.

Ascension would be great (for a while), but I think eternal non-existence might be better in the long run.

still very vague.

how would you know you're immortal?

how would you know that your physical body has turned into one or formless energy?

What specifically would you see, hear, feel/touch, taste and/or smell that would let you know this is so?

examples: "I would hear three independent observers say that my body is giving off incredible amount of light" - "I would hear two different doctors tell me that the gunshot that went right through my brain has caused me no harm whatsoever - I would also see mri scans, x-ray scans and other test results that show me in perfect health"

...this is what I mean by being specific. If it feels very uncomfortable to make these goals so specific, then that's an indication that you're chasing after illusion...

If you were ascended you should be able to walk through walls, become invisible, transverse the multi-verse to any reality which you see fit to reside in. If you are truly ascended you should be able to see through all of it and realize the ultimate nature of reality and yourself. I don't think there would be any question as to whether or not your ascended.

I think this is just one of those things that you either "get", or you dont.

the important question is - how is it working out for you so far?

http://poetv.com/video.php?vid=26090

well I agree a lot of people seek power to get their rocks off, or to control and manipulate people, to exploit everything in the world to boost their ego and pocketbook and indulge their carnal pleasures.

Most of these people go into politics, they crave and lust after power to use it to control other people.


I also seek power, but I could a give a shit less about controlling other people, or trying to control any aspect of this world.

I WANT OUT...

I want to leave this world and never return. Eternal nonexistance, eternal rest, never to wake up in a world ever again, anywhere, ever. That sounds so... so wonderful.

Immortality of the spirit is a close second aspiration, perhaps I could spend my eternity in metta meditation, or emptiness meditation. I don't think I would be too concerned with anything in this state except maybe helping living beings who sought to ascend also.


It's ok to want power to liberate yourself, its not ok to want power to control and manipulate other people like they were your puppets.

-----------
change the mantra?

"I spend my eternity in metta meditation, or emptiness meditation."

??