At risk of sounding over cynical I would like to ask the question: Is KunLun Bogus?

Please be aware Im not suggesting that it is, Im asking a question, not making a statement. The reason I ask is because there seems to be a few things that are specifically non-daoist and a lot of statements being made that sound a bit sketchy. Maybe this is my missunderstanding or perhaps a genuine mistake on part of the website etc. But anyway, here they are.

"Max Christensen is not out to make money, the teachings are free. You are your own teacher, you can do it by yourself."


- The book costs $15, which is not an unreasonable price for a book, but this part is what gets me...

Website:

NOTE: This book is a great way to familiarize yourself with Kunlun, but to get the most from your practice you must have the ability transferred to you by Lama Dorje(!). Then you can perform the exercises to unlock what you have been given. This is best used as a companion to the seminars.

- So I cant really learn from the book and practice effectively. The seminars (which cost $300 each) are an essential part of the program, along with the "initiation" so really im not my own teacher. Taking these into account it only takes 20 or so people to make $6000 for 4 hours work - 1 seminar.

There are pictures of light emanating from hands and body etc.

- If these are real, its very pretty. But why are't there any videos? Pictures can easily be fakes, so why use such system? A nice video would be much more convincing.

"Max does not want followers:"

- Then why create a system, write a book on it, make a website on it, do seminars on it and publicise it on the radio?

"The results actually work, bliss can be felt, just try the practice for yourself!"

- I have to pay money to try this practice, get initiationand travel to seminars. I can achieve a state of bliss by manipulating my body in certain ways, but this isn't enlightenment. Many have reported bliss feeling, im not questioning that, but feeling bliss is not part of the daoist tradition, it creates attachment to feelings.

Scientific claims:

"Practitioner will continue to do Level I practice in Level II. The purpose of this level is to generate and circulate magnetic energy through the body. When the energy is at its highest, magnetic power is able to flow through the body. "

- Have you taken a hall probe to measure this effect and verify it is magnetic? Its easily insertable into various cavaties of the human body to make internal measurments of magnetic fields.

"Technically, a black hole absorbs matter into a rotating vortex of magnetic energy. However, a black hole also emits waves and particles into space. One can use this form of energy for his personal awakening.

This form of radiation from the "black hole" is called ultraviolet-three and is only found in the depth of space, or in objects such as meteorites. This radiation does not travel through the earth because of the earth's protective magnetic field will not allow ultraviolet-three to penetrate to the earth's surface."

- Where is the evidence for this? Conveniently we can't find a black hole to test it. Theres no such thing as ultraviolet-three radiation. How do you know its found in meteorites, have you opened one up? Even if it can't penetrate the Earth's surface, why haven't satellite based instruments detected it?

"Celestial Chi Gung is a sitting meditation that allows one to tap into the energy of the universe via black hole. "

- I doubt that was the explanation given by the ancient masters who invented it.

"As you become more clear, you become more magnetic. "

- Should I worry about metal objects flying randomly towards me as I ascend towards enlightenment?

"The video samples show people being affected by Max's energy. Can this energy be applied to anybody?
Nothing is being done without people's permission. In fact, if someone is consciously aware of this type of energy being directed at them they can usually close themselves to it."

- This is a typical trick proven with modern psychological methods. You have to believe you are going to be manipulated and then you are. If you don't belive nothing happens. Theres no mystical energy involved here.

"These can be proven scientifically. Quantum physicsists understand but can't apply it. There's free energy"

- Quantum physics is understood and applied every day by scientists everywhere. There's no such thing as free energy in the laws of this universe, and given we exist in it, its just not true. None of this can be proven scientifically, that would require correspondence with real scientists with logical methods.

My apologies if I seem over cynical, its not my intention to cause an argument or insult anyone, but there should be some questions given the amount of people on this forum asking about these methods.

Any input is much appreciated.

This is like going on a Christian website and asking if the Baptists are bogus. If this is really a seroius question and your not Trolling you might want to search the many, many Kun Lun threads here. Objections have been raised, people have already been offended, there was rudeness given and had by all, and it was just starting to quiet down again.

I dont mean to offend you but I just wanted to let you know that this subject has been done to death here. So much so that the many great Kun Lun people here are going to go to another site so they dont have to get insulted everytime they want to talk about thier Kun Lun practice.

Just thought you should know...

None of this stuff really matters.
If you believe you will be enlightened by standing on one leg, or pointing a sword finger, or doing anything..guess what..you will.
So why not just drop all the practice.
All this magnetic flow mumbo jumbo...
Placebo effect.
Quantum Physics..wherever you look it's there..
Pick a path..there's no point in talking about it anymore..
T

JAKARA

I couldnt have said it better myself!!!

This is what ive been trying to ask but couldnt find the words....

WYG

Im not sure what trolling is but im not trying to stir it up if thats what you mean.

All ive seen so far is more and more threads about kunlun practice.
More and more beginners come to the taobums looking for guidance and not surprisingly the first thing they run into is kunlun.

So no im not trying to offend or start an arguement, I just wanted to present some previously unposted information to help those coming to to look for real taoism and finding a huge number of posts about kunlun.

I'd agree a healthy self respect is good for enlightenment and those fortunate enough to be cultivating a real practice are unaffected either way.

But beginners are coming to this site as one of the most popular taoist forums online for help, so of course there should be a healthy debate, otherwise the teachings with the largest number of adherents dominates the forum and thats all the beginners see. This shouldn't go unchecked, especially when terminology/tactics are being used that would blind the average seeker, whether intentional or not.

I whole-heartedly agree.

My observation is that every group's social dynamic has some sort of weak point (just like every individual does).. and there inevitably is a "party line", group social psychology influences and people tend to go along with the party line while trying to mine the good stuff.

One of the things about TheTaoBums that (for me, at least) makes it what-it-is, is that there's fundamentally no group (or something like that) and so no party line. That's what has made it such a refreshing and productive forum.

My conclusion with kunlun - and I went through my own version of what you're going through - is that it's not a place for me to practice intellectual discernment (which is a real, valid part of the path). The method is sweet and if you can observe your own internals, have some prior study under your belt, you'll sort it out conceptually yourself and that can help with your own practical navigation. If you're this sort of spiritual-intellectual, it'll mostly frustrate you to try to sharpen your theory-sword from the book/seminar. (Private sessions are sometimes a different story.) Give the method a whirl, though, probably you'll like it enough to keep it.

There are other personality types for whom these are non-issues. The kunlun group, personally, is a very fun crowd and they have a gas. Max had the whole room laughing, including me, when I went. The method is fun and productive and pretty kind: by far mostly people get benefit, whether they know why or not. Max, imho, actually is quite developed. I have several friends who have stayed involved with the group, to varying degrees, and they're clearly having fun and enriching~refining. I'm grumpy and kicking rocks off somewhere in the sidelines.

Trunk

~ later edit ~
p.s. And it's not that Max doesn't know process; that's just not the emphasis of this group's presentation. Not the strongest part of their presentation.

If you believe you will be enlightened by standing on one leg, or pointing a sword finger, or doing anything..guess what..you will.






NO,you will not

Yes the taobums has been described as non-sectarian, so i guess that would include other groups too.

I guess I am what you might call an intellect, and therefore think and question things in that intellectual manor. I'd agree intellect is not required whilst actually practicing techniques, but perhaps it should be used to determine which techniques to practice in the first place.

Im glad you guys have a great time, and from what you say Max is a nice guy and very entertaining to boot. I wouldn't suggest otherwise. But still have to object to what is being claimed as authentic taoist techniques when so many flaws are apparent. I don't have personal agenda here, but have to point out the flaws to those who are questioning them.

I'm a beginner. As I said in the introduction thingy, I've never done anything related to taoism before. I'm very interested in this link as well (I've just purchased the kunlun book). I want to look at Kunlun from all sides. No matter what comes out of this thread, I will still read the book so I can make up my own mind, keeping all the gained information in the back of my mind.

But in the meanwhile: DarinHamel - you said it's been discussed to death here, perhaps you could post some links directly to that thread ? This forum is huge, so it would be a real help.

I do have some reservations, some along the line of Jakara's... One of them is this hunt for 'bliss'. Isn't bliss just another emotion to get addicted to ? A way for the ego to cling to the illusion it likes? I find it strange that bliss seems to be used as a synonym for enlightenment. I would agree it could be a side effect yes... is this perhaps what was meant ?

300euro's is a very steep price for a 4 hour lecture ... if this price is acurate of course, one does wonders where it comes from... However, it's not unheard of that prices can be very steep for some courses. I do not wish to pass judgement over such courses, as this is a free world and it truly is to each his/her own. But without passing judgement, I do wonder if it is really necesary to ask such a high fee... And of course the 15$ book could be offered as a pdf in download... just a thought.
-> I do have to mention the other side too of course. There will be travel expenses and such for the seminars. You don't know if food and beverages are offered. The rooms in which the seminars take place need to be paid for as well... But even then, it's a lot for 4 hours... Perhaps a price varying based on the number of people attending the seminar could be a fair solution

Pictures of light hands, hahaha, yes... well video can be just as easily manipulated... just so you know. Perhaps this is one of these things a person only believes when they see it, and even then, illusionists/magicians have done some pretty nifty things in front of audiences as well... Well, you'll just have to try for yourself I guess

Hm, writing a book, creating a website, doing seminars doesn't necesarily mean that you'd want followers. If I'd have a way to help a lot of people, I'd want to reach as many of those people as I possibly could... The publicizing, yeah I'm kind of in a pickle on that one. I'm actually going to have to make such a decision of my own... On the one hand I'd rather make a personal investment and try to meet people via (free) seminars and such. But this takes time that you can then not invest in actually transferring knowledge. But then again, if you're really the real deal, word of mouth will be all the publicity you need... But again, wanting to reach as many as possible ... ah, hard decision I'd say...

The flow of magnetic power through the body, the black hole stuff, the UV-3,magnetism being related to clarity, ... it's not okay to make statements that can't be proven, but who says they can't ? Perhaps they have been ? ... DarinHamel, are there any threads where there might be answers to those things ? Or do you perhaps know somebody that can ? (sorry to direct these questions at you, but you seem to know a bit about this)

Anyway, I've been on other fora where people suddenly took offense to certain ideas, leading to people leaving and such just like in this one. I feel this is truly a shame (especially coz I wanted to know more about kunlun and now the actual buffs are leaving allready)...

These types of websites are the ones where people dwell that often state that they are very open minded, loving and tolerant. Then where is this tolerance and open mindednes when (genuine) questions are being asked about beliefs or practices... Why do people feel attacked when they're supposed to be filled with love ? Feeling attacked is a choice. Even IF it was the intention of the writer of a certain reply to offend, hurt or attack... Even then it is your OWN choice to feel offended. You càn read around all the childishness and find the actual question between all the fluff. If you do not wish to be offended or angry, nobody can make you. They can try, but it'll be your choice.

I'd really like to encounter a forum where there are plenty people truly open minded and tolerant enough to make an actual effort (an effort that doesn't involve separation ). Usualy the ones trying to push your buttons, do so because something you said or did, made them think. Something hit home... So sad so many opportunities get wasted, so sad so many knowledge gets diffused because of childlike banter, especially in a time when sticking together should be a priority.

Ah well ... some day...

@jakara - authentic taoist techniques -> which ones would you (or others if they want) suggest to look into ?

A Taoist I once met told me:

You know what is the problem with people who get engaged in the spiritual path?

They want results quickly and if they approach this path that way they never achieve anything. When they ask me: Master, how long will it take me to read people's minds? I tell them 20 years. They say: Wow! But master I can't wait that long. They ask me again: What if instead of practicing two hours per day I practice four. I tell them: You'll achieve that power after 30 years.

When he gave me this example I understood really well the wisdom contained within these words.

Guess what?

I was one of those guys


All methods are good, some take longer than others but it's not the method and goal what you should focus upon, it's the path.

In this business patience and persistence lead toward enlightenment. Remember that Siddharta Buddha almost DIED because of it.

Just enjoy what you are doing.

del

Thats great, I'm not suggesting kunlun isn't real, im just pointing out some evidence, by all means make your own mind up about it. As I said I have no agenda and nothing to gain or lose either way.

As for the science parts, Im fully qualified to answer them directly as I have done.

Ideally if the forum were full of qualified teachers there wouldn't be many arguements, but its mostly beginners looking for more information on taoism and taoist practice, so i guess thats where much of the hostility can come from. Its natural, you only need to put a person behind an internet connection or the wheel of a car to see raw human compulsion.

I would suggest looking at sources that we know to be genuine, for example the Tao Te Ching, compare sources like this and others which you know to be accurate and see which ones are most likely to be true. If you have access to a qualified teacher all the better.

sorry... she told me not to tell. My apologies.

You don't need to be a teacher to be qualified. I am not what you'd say a beginner but if I showed some interest in Kunlun in another thread is because I was curious about this method. Plain and simple curiosity and perhaps to bring something different into my repertoire of exercises.

There is no better system. I think you need to re-read my previous post. If you rush in this path you'll hit a wall.

How long have you been practicing for?

According to this list:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fetter_(Buddhism)


Where are you at?

Sorry if I sound rude but far from that if I ask you something so personal is because I am trying to figure out whether you are experiencing the dark night of the soul or not:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dark_night_of_the_soul

In addition this page gives valuable insight (nothing new btw ) about our positioning as humans whithin Samsara:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment


Regards.

2. doubt or uncertainty, especially about the teachings (vicikicchā)[6]
4. sensual desire (kāmacchando)[8]
5. ill will (vyāpādo or byāpādo)[9]
7. lust for immaterial existence (arūparāgo)
10. ignorance (avijjā)[13]

I'm still bound by the above, at least.

I wasn't sure if those questions were directed at me or not but ill answer them anyway.

Agreed, there are many qualified who don't teach. Perhaps there are even many on this forum, though probably more beginners as thats what the forum is made for. Ive been practicing for a few years.

Apologies I don't know where I am on the buddhist list, but then I'm not a buddhist. No offence taken, no im not a dark night of the soul, a similar concept is described in taoist experience, its confusing if you don't realise you're entranced, but how can we realise we are entranced if you can only think within the limits of the trance you're in? I guess we both know non-dualistic meditation is the answer, its the only way to know you aren't entranced, by definition.

Thanks for the links, I love buddhism, interesting and effective to say the least.

Kun Lun isn't Taoism, it's just a hobby that's popular among Taoists. Like drinking.

A number of people here at TTB's have practiced effectively with just the book, some haven't and needed the seminar also. People vary.


I don't know about the inner finances & politics of the Kunlun group specifically, from the outside it looks like several other groups I've seen.

To attain the sort of level that I've observed in Max, it's generally considered ... extremely rigorous. Part of what makes a good student on the fast path is sheer survivability in terms of physical stamina (doesn't die) and psychological resilience (doesn't go insane). The people who make it through have been through a lot, there's a kind of a * whew! * and ... "what?, you want me to teach? .. Ok: if you make it happen, I'll show up."

... I mean, teaching is also often they're calling, they enjoy at least some aspects of it, is of real service and the correct next organic step ... all of that, too.

Then you have one, or several, students who get the events off the ground, make the logistics happen... I was that person, for a little while for a small group-episode. One of my main first reactions was, "wow, expenses add up!". From the outside I never would've guessed how much it cost for such a modest advertise-travel-event. For a set-up like kunlun, my first guess would be that no one is making money (hopefully they're saving a little for momentum - but that's hope), and it's likely that some of the inner circle has sustained occasional dents to their personal credit cards (not at the Teacher's direction, but because they want to put on the events and they make the logistics happen). The teacher's profit hopefully includes coffee and a meal, hopefully makes a few new friends. Like I said, I don't know anything about inner Kunlun politics, but all that'd be typical. Bottom line: you guys aren't getting ripped off, and they're probably flying a lot closer to the trees than you'd assume.

I've just been hoping that they'll grow over the next several years, and make it to "stable comfortable" territory.

We are all down here learning and growing.

Thanks for sharing your experience.


Trunk,


To attain the sort of level that I've observed in Max, it's generally considered ... extremely rigorous. Part of what makes a good student on the fast path is sheer survivability in terms of physical stamina (doesn't die) and psychological resilience (doesn't go insane). The people who make it through have been through a lot, there's a kind of a * whew! * and ... "what?, you want me to teach? .. Ok: if you make it happen, I'll show up."

Hmm...The Buddha almost died and got nowhere. Probably he strengthened himself but when in a more relaxed state (instead of torturing his body with extreme fasting episodes and meditating amongst cadavers), and deep in meditation under the Bodhi tree he reached spiritual enlightenment and one of the things he taught was the Middle Path; in other words, the practice of non-extremism. Maybe Kunlun is borderline the extreme path. Just a thought.

don't think Kunlun is bogus. I do question if its a complete system. Its so simple. it has no philosophy. Will it get you enlightened? What a loaded question. What will Get you enlightened? Depends what you mean by it,( and You and Enlightened). Even the Buddha didn't hand out guarantees or money back.

Kunlun might be a powerful tool to head you in the right direction til there's no you one way or the other. I'm glad we have people here posting their experiences. If its a simple kindergarden level system I think we'll see progress stall. Im just as happy to find out the progress other people are making with there practices.

One problem with Kunlun and I found this with HT as well is, we're not studying regularly under a teacher. We go to a seminar, pick up a video, but its not the same. To meet regularly, meditate in a group, be near high octane people is a kick in the spiritual pants.

Michael

Yarp.

As always so much good stuff, great points.

What I think (I don't know, have not read, personal belief warning) is that the transmission is to bring you to the higher level vibration that you feel when you are with a great teacher, and to let you keep it long enough so you can feel that way too, without constant contact. I've been looking over old notes, and I always feel a bit down and end up practicing heaps of tai chi this time of year and I think it's because I miss my Sifu. Just being in the same room with him is a pleasure.

And I hadn't noticed till Trunk pointed it out but my Sifu does not want a following either. 2 of my sihing's basically got him to start teaching kung fu from his garage after years of asking. Then he picked up a few students from his occasional Tai Chi classes, like me. And it's grown it into something with classes twice a week in a rented hall. But its much more a reflection of what the senior students and Si Gung wants than what Sifu wants.

Those who wish to be
Must put aside the alienation,
Get on with the fascination,
The real relation,
The underlying theme
-Rush

Get off the sideline get into the practice. Its easy to criticize and snipe from the outside, but to devote yourself to the practice is what is required. True gong fu. Bhakti yoga. Therein lies your answer.

Don't give up your insecurity or your questions, but go with your heart, your feeling. When you doubt your practice stick with it for a while, don't give it up. When you are confident your practice is right stick with it a while and see how long you feel that way. My experience is that practice is like life, you never know if your are on the right path until you have taken a few steps, and those can be some damn frightening steps to take and the ones ahead are not much clearer than the ones behind were. Make your practice your life and stick with it for as long as you live, become your practice and let your practice become your life. (Get on with the fascination)

I've tried kunlun, seminar and all, and have chosen to pursue a different path. Its all good. Kunlun may be different (perhaps even "better"), but the ideal practice the one that best becomes part of your life, part of your identity, not the one that is flawless or the one that seems perfect from the outside (cult anyone?).

In the end it is purely subjective, only your own experience can dictate what is acceptable for you. Let not your intellect (or wikipedia) reign, but let your heart guide your way.

Another Rush lyric:
A planet of play things
We dance on the strings
Of powers we cannot perceive
'The stars aren't aligned
Or the gods are malign...'
Blame is better to give than receive


Its easy to point the finger...

As spiritual food kunlun is cotton candy.

It's interesting you have all these people who haven't practiced Kunlun or haven't practiced Kunlun for any extended periods with such strong opinions about Kunlun.

Not to mention haven't gotten transmission from Max. Which is sort of important.

All these people with so many, many opinions about Kunlun.

I mean, Kunlun is one of 3 things Max teaches at the seminar. The others are Mao Shan standing which is a very powerful practice by itself and Red Phoenix. Red Phoenix is the most powerful practice I have ever learned hands down. It works frightengly fast.

So far The Leaners attitude is the most balanced I have heard. If you are actually interested in studying Kunlun actually do it for 6 months. Then you have experience you can draw from instead of basing decisions about your own awakening on the opinions of strangers on the internet that you probably won't meet in your life.

As far as negative things to say which our buddy xenolith above has shown again and again he is a master of, my attitude from here on out on Taobums will be what we learned in Kindergarden and still great advice.

If you don't have something nice to say about someone say nothing at all.

cotton candy wont fill you, though. and if you do manage to fill yourself with it, you'll be a pretty sick puppy. I could see if he said it was a spiritual pb&j or something

imho, kunlun is just another tool in the toolbox. it wont fix your whole damn house, but it will do a good bit for ya.

I appreciate that I came to this party late but it's new to me and it looks like others are still brining it up too. After reading more of the fantastic claims that Max makes for this simplistic thing he teaches it looks even more like he is a scammer.

Some of the supporters say "just try the practice" and you'll find out how great it is.

Well I've been doing just this kind of thing for well over a decade and I know how it fits in the big picture.

I've dedicated my life to mastering real nei kung and as a result I can tell you about this kunlun 1 practice, how it works,what it's good for, what it's not so good for and I will explain how you can make this and similar postures work better for you depending on what your goal is.

First of all Max says to raise your heels off the floor but he doesn't tell you to shake your legs. Well folks, the whole idea of this kind of thing is to shake your legs to generate some energy, so why doesn't he just cut the crap and come right out and say it. That's what the masters do. Shake your legs! Generate energy! Period.

I think he doesn't want to say it for perverse reasons of making some people feel like they have achieved something grand when the shaking starts - a cheap trick. It is a tool to gain a sort of psychological control over people, which goes well with a good scamming. ALSO, if you raise your heels up high enough, really high, all the way, and hold them there then the strain that it causes will make your calf muscles start trembling right away. DUH!! What a good teacher would do, if he wanted it to be spontaneous, is tell people that they aren't raising their heels high enough to make the shaking start, but obviously he doesn't do that. I'm not sure why, but the whole thing stinks big time.

Using leg shaking is a good way to generate energy. I'm sure a lot of the impressionalbe people here have been doing the stillness and visualizing practices, which don't generate energy, and wimpy chi kung, and so first feeling this energy can seem like a really big deal. It's NOT a big deal! But it is not in alignment with all the grandiose statements Max makes like it's his special super duper gift to the universe. It has long been well know in chi kung circles that shaking the body is a good way of generating energy and clearing blockages and it has been written about, for example in Lam Kam Chuen's The Way of Energy it talks about the benefits of shaking. That book must be at least 15 years old, and it reports on knowledge that is as old as the hills.

There are many many ways to shake the body, and I feel many of them are secret but I will share at least one that is more powerful that the leg shaking =)

Later I'll write about the arm position and explain the energetic aspects of it and of better ways to use it and other hand postures that will take better advantage of the shaking energy, but first I would like to ask a question about it. Does he tell people to keep their shoulder down?

It is easy to quote aphorisms and point fingers. Experience is subjective. Appreciate others experience as your own and may be able to understand where others come from.

Kunlun is great, if you believe the same then go with it. I wish you the best. In the end I believe that devotion is the key. Devotion to an ideal, a practice, a system, a God, a saint, a savior. That is the key. Surrender. That is one of the keys to progress in kunlun. Surrender/acceptance...make it your gongfu. Much more difficult to digest than cotton candy.

In healing there is the maxim: Right cure, for the right ailment, at the right time.

For a certain person at a certain stage in their growth Kunlun may indeed be their Tao; their most beneficial course or way of progression.

And if, and I am not saying it is, Kunlun is a delusional path, then I do not have the right to interfere with someone's destiny by trying to manipulate their path. Perhaps being deluded for awhile is for their highest good.

Live and let them live
Non-interference is Tao
My journey remains

Very interesting, yes. We all go on detours, don't we. It's one of the real ways of learning.

I hope someone will describe the Red Phoenix posture for me so that I may analyze it's aspects for you.

Thanks,
Starjumper Extraordinaire.

have you tried it with only one heel up?

Starjumper,

My legs started shaking from pretty much the first week I started Kunlun. I came on Taobums and Mantra68..Max's student and friend, has been explaining to people left and right details about shaking(including shaking in one leg is more yang one more yin etc) and that when your legs are shaking that means your "generating".

Honestly man, you really need to do a little better research before just coming here and going to war with Kunlun. There are dozens of threads for many months now, Mantra and Max aren't hiding details about the practice. If anything, they are more open and willing to share these practices than any Chinese alchemy teacher.

Unless we were willing to move to Seattle for the mere chance of studying with you or your teacher let me guess we would probably never learn a thing about the system you and your teacher teach.

Max is going against tradition and teaching high level practices to people.

You just wrote several large pragraphs about Max that are completely false. At the first workshop Max said exactly what you have said in that post and he gave people all the info they need.

The shaking isn't forced-you seem to have some sort of block with this aspect after Mantra already clearly explained it to you-the shaking is SPONTANEOUS and the transmission just helps the whole process along.

Cam

Bodhisattva. ness.

Cameron wrote:



This is true, unfortunately, my teacher won't teach anyone since he's retired, and for me, seven students is close to enough. I don't know, I could make a DVD, but it's one snapshot of an ever changing system and it's missing an important ingredient: an important aspect of my practice is that I radiate energy during class and do energy work on the students while they are meditating because it accelerates their progress so much. I don't like to spread myself too thin, unlike some people =)



Um, ya, well that's what I've been getting at here and in other threads, it's really not that much of a high level practice, except maybe to beginners.



I see, so the book leaves out the info but he says it. I think I read that some who went to the seminars said their legs didn't shake which represents a dismal failure of the teaching tool there, wouldn't you say?



I understood that very well the first several times I read it, but it becomes spontaneous after you do it on purpose. The way the spontaneous idea is presented along with the failure of people to achieve it indicates a big problem. There is no REASON to mention the SPONTANEOUS aspect at all ever anyway.

I would have to disagree with what you said.

The first time I practiced Kunlun I really had no idea what to expect. I got the book in the mail-which in fact does talk about shaking along with a host of other side effects from the practice-and took the posture. I was interested that my leg started bouncing soon after and made a post about it in my former practice jounral and Mantra immeditetly gave us all good feedback about the bouncing.

I honestly just think this is some sort of bizarre ego thing you have with Max and won't comment to any more of your posts. As you have already stated you have decades of experience and seem to be really confident that Max and what he teaches are not high level stuff.

If you would make a DVD or atleast post a Youtube video of yourself doing a form, some Tai Chi or something so all of us can be enlightened to what a real high level practitioner such as yourself looks like.

I am serious. Maybe we all need to be humbled by you who knows. I have these concepts in my head about how a Bodhisattva or Buddha behaves but maybe you really have the goods. At this point I think you owe us all a small clip atleast after asserting so strongly how much better you are then another teacher.

Cam

Arrogant, rude, extremely assuming, uninformed. The energy you sling about turns my stomach
.

I've done that a little bit, but usually it's just a brief, temporary and unplanned thing. I just tried it now on purpose for a it and it looks like the energy stays more on the side that's shaking. Is there any other point ot it that I should do it longer to check out?

I personally feel that the techniques presented by Max actually do work, and I don't believe that he is a fraud. BUT, I do believe that is system is like a hodgepodge of techniques from different schools with no real systematic methodology.

He just says it's the quickest of the quick, but does not explain how it works. People like mantak chia have gone through great lengths to explain why and how the white cloud alchemy formulas work. Refinements have also been made to fine tune and enhance the process.

The system he teaches imo lacks the structure of teachings like the universal dao, dzogchen, or kriya yoga systems.

I also do not like the fact that he keeps saying that you are your own teacher; AFTER, you get this energy transmission and initiation. With practices like universal dao you don't need these deekshas to make the system work, just practice, practice, practice.

I think that if one truly want to live the path of alchemy, than the universal dao is probably the most complete and systematic method out there, kriya yoga taught by the bihar school is also pretty clean cut. If you are a layman and don't want to spend time truly learning the inner workings of alchemy then study kunlun.

I respect the depth that people want to go. Kunlun works for the layman, and is designed for him, it's a no fuss system of alchemy. The universal dao is designed for the true alchemist who wants to know the ins and outs of the system and truly master their chi.

What defines "real, traditional, authentic" Taoism? Doesn't Taoism teach us that the universe is in constant flux? Is a 1,000 year old system, vaguely translated off a cave wall, or passed teacher to teacher in secrecy, better than a modern one? What if the old masters had access to EEG machines, video tapes, computers, heck, even vitamin pills? What kind of practice would they develop?

Not that Kunlun is a modern practice. But it is presented to a modern audience. The modern world operates on money. And sensationalism. I doubt that we would even have a mention of Kunlun if it would not have been for those "fantastic" videos, real or not.

We study the past. We learn from it. We take all the resources we have at the present. We refine what we have and make our own "Taoism".

This whole thread, and many like it, proves how we over think and try to analyze everything. Taoism has taught me to trust the Tao.

If it feels good, do it, just not to excess. If it ain't broke don't fix it. If it hurts, it is probably no good. Try everything once, if you like it, try it again. If you believe in something, it will come true. The source is from within.

LOL

Red phoenix is a visualization method so i believe and not a form or posture!!! Ommmmm

Here are some observations on the arm position used in this backwater Kunlun 1 exercise. Note, I said exercise, not system, not practice =)

Different hand and arm positions send the extra energy along different paths. When you have your hands in the kunlun holding the ball posture it mainly amplifies the energy in your torso, along your central channel. Normally the top hand is more flat and the bottom hand is more cupped and so the top hand is 'sending' and the bottom hand is 'receiving' and the energy flow tends towards downwards.

There is no reason to just have one arm up. It is always better to do balanced versions of these types of exercises, alternating hands when your shoulder gets tired. It sounds like, from people saying that their shoulders are getting very painful, that the requirement is for only one hand to be up, the right hand? The only reason to only have on hand up is to cause pain and failure =)

When you trap your energy along your torso centerline like that it will build up and want to get out and release and this can cause spontaneous mudras and fajin like movements, no big deal, it's showmanship.

Much better postures for leg shaking are holding a big ball so that your hands are low, at your lower tan tien level. This will increase your personal power without any fancy looking chi dances.

A better posture for spiritual cultivation, to send more energy to your head, use the leg shaking but have your hands in a zazen style posture, palm up but raise your hands about an inch off your lap so that they aren't bothered by the shaking. Keep in mind that getting a lot of energy in your head can cause you to get 'emotional' which is normally a negative experience in our stressful society.

So there you have an explanation of holding the ball vertically with two other exercises that are more effective and they are easier to do too. There are other hand positions which are better for getting rid of sick energy.




Well my teacher went to an open house at the university hospital where his wife worked and had a free EEG brainwave test. The doctors interpreting the readout said his EEG was like that of a teenagers, and he was 78 at the time. So I'll stick with the systems that have been constantly refined over thousands of years by generation after generation of practical genius masters in secrecy, they had a very good reason for secrecy. My practice is about 1600 years old and it wasn't scratched on a cave wall.

one heel was just an idea to see how it works for you, i have no idea what to expect, except that you got what you expected

the path is a subjective experience, and should be respected as such. i hope that everyone has as much success with their path as they put into it and if you get more than that then hallelujah, you have found the path that works for you. there is almost no absolute truth. experience is the ultimate teacher. do what makes you happy and fuck everyone else. if you tried kunlun with one heel then you are still on the search for something that you will not find, ie: proof. its all subjective. develop your own gongfu and leave everyone else to their own (subjective) happiness.

Jesus Christ, are you for real? I tried it because you asked me about it. And I didn't get what I expected, I reported to you what I experienced - because you asked? duhhhh ...and fuck proof.

Is there a rule against four letter words here?

Exactly. Fuck proof. Fuck it all to hell. Go with what makes you happy.

Thanks, most visualization is combined with a particular posture, I'll bet it calls for a particular posture. What is the visualization? I suppose the name Red Phoenix is the renaming of some technique which we might already know under a different name. Kind of like where holding the ball isn't holding the ball, it's superkunlun.

As far as transmissions are concerned, someone mentioned that the book contains a transmission =) Probably a belt drive transmission. Or maybe it transmits words and ideas, so see, it's the truth.

Ommmmm back atcha.

I won't describe the practice since Mantra said not to. There is a transmission that goes along with Red Phoenix just as there is a transmission for kunlun.

Can't say about book transmission. But I would take the description from the book over illegal copyright posting over the internet incomplete descriptions.

Also, Starjumper, I think everyone is acutely aware now that you think kunlun is bs, Max is a fraud and you think your system and teacher are much better. You really don't need to repeat yourself in every single post man. I am willing to bet people here are intelligent enough to get your position on this issue by now.

Ommmm!

Im interested in Max's Thunder Breathing has anyone done it? Ommmmmmm

I just got back from the lecture Max gave in Los Angeles. The room was packed. Must have been about 60 or 70 persons in a fairly small room. A lot of the people I had seen before. Several people gave testimonials on how Kunlun had helped them or told the type of experiences they were having.

One of Max's top students was there. She has been having some pretty strong "death" experiences and is about ready to have the golden dragon body experience. She tried to put into words about what she has been experiencing. It was inspiring to listen to her. It show that Kunlun can lead you to the highest experience if you really want that.

Max mentioned that the transmission helps you to get connected to the 2701 masters of the Kunlun lineage. If you really work at this path maybe you will see them in your meditation.

Max told about recently he met with a very high level Tibetan Master. Max said that they were able to communicate mind to mind without words. The Tibetan Master's Los Angeles representative was there and gave Max some gifts as appreciation. Max mentioned that the Tibetan Master is going to start having some of his students add Kunlun to their practice.

To me Kunlun is a genuine and authentic path and I am happy that I am on it. From what I heard at the lecture I am not the only one that feels that way. Craig

Obviously this debate is going to roll on. Nothing wrong with differing opinions, it can be a wonderful tonic.

However, if personalities are expressed too strongly then the truth is buried and sullied by coarse emotions.

I have posted Rules of a Fair Argument here:

http://www.thetaobums.com/Insult-policy-reminder-t4237.html

Perhaps our combatants would be advised to keep this in mind so that this forum is enriched by this discussion rather than repulsed by it.

Peace

Sounded like a great seminar, why is the Tibetans using a Daoist Kunlun system when they have there own mantras, mudras, visualzations, and what not?

Max has learnt high level Tibetan systems Phurba and thunder breathing and say its the highest i dont understand can someone clarify?