just a quick reply needed.

just need confirmation of the 5 animals and their relation to the shen.

have been doing john ducanes 5 animals frolics, which is going really awesome, just what i needed.

i want to supercharge the practice however by adding elements to it related to the internal organs, i.e. the sounds, self massage, sense massage, etc.

i think this is which animal relates to each shen, but confirmation would be great.

he presents the animals in this order, so i just assume it follows the creation cycle and the same order as the sounds etc.

crane - lungs.
bear - kidneys.
monkey - liver.
deer - heart.
tiger - spleen.

thank you.

i learned it as:

crane: heart
bear: kidneys
monkey: spleen
deer: liver
tiger: lungs

but that might be irrelevant as you can connect any totem you want with whatever organ you want. what matters is how effectively that totem help you develop the relationship and if the shen are happy with it.

Fascinating comment Mr. Falk. I tend to believe the same. I am reading a terrific book right now called "Stealing the Fire from Heaven". It's coming mostly from a Western magickal/alchemical perspective and there is a section on the power of approaching energy centers of the body as "spirits". The author describes how you can, for example, create/discover personified forms for each of your chakras which then allow you to relate to your interal alchemy as the interplay of spiritual beings instead of just energy mechanics.

I tend to be of the belief that much of this work is metaphorical. That we actually shape our energy bodies by the way we approach relating to them. It's been an important belief on my journey that helps prevent dogmatism, taking systems too literally, mistaking map for territory, etc. On the other hand I've also noticed it keeps me somewhat stand-offish from delving deeply into any one system, perhaps preventing fuller results such as those that you have beautifully achieved by really delving into and working with Winn's shen-organ framework.

Sean.

Yup, good point.

A lot of stuff works like that. When I was given my first set of tarot cards I was told you should never buy your own. Thinking about this a little it was clear it was something to do with the 'oral' tradition, that things should be passed down from someone with experience who could teach directly. At some point the idea that you shouldn't buy your own cards became more important than the principle behind it, and so a superstition arose. The idea that something bad would happen if you bought your own pack of tarot cards, that nature had some law about it, was ridiculous.

Knowledge can start off as a set of principles and relations, then it becomes simplified into a symbol for convenience. The symbol only relates to the knowledge in a subjective way. If the original knowledge is lost the meaning of symbols is forgotten or misunderstood and superstition takes the place of what was once profound learning.

Working with any symbolic reference its helpful to ask why that particular symbol should be used. If you don't have a clue what it represents, better do some research. If it doesn't seem to fit then I think its ok to change the symbol, as long as you have a real good reason to i.e. have the adequate knowledge and understanding of the principles and relations behind it. Otherwise you'll be a Jack Handy saying, "How come the dove gets to be the peace symbol? How about the pillow? It has more feathers than the dove, and it doesn't have that dangerous beak."

Bats in European folklore symbolise dark forces but in Chinese folklore they indicate great fortune. Is this because bats have spiritual powers and are nicer to Chinese people with them than to European people? Unlikely. Its not to do with the nature of bats, its to do with someone at some point using a bat as a metaphor because of a chance similarity with something else. The symbols are changeable.

RedKooga, you would love this "Stealing the Fire from Heaven" book I am reading. I'll lend it to you when I'm done if you'd like. Did you ever get into Austin Osman Spare? A good chunk of the book is about his methods. What I'm finding fascinating about the book is that the author lays out a method by which you can tap into your own unconscious to unearth it's personal symbols/archetypes without needing to first learn, internalize and empower a codified external symbol-set. Eventually (or so is claimed) a complete system tailored specifically to you as an individual can be explored and elaborated upon from the riches of your own individual psyche. Unfortunately going this route lacks the built-in balance encoded in time-honored systems such as Qabalah and Taoist Alchemy so it's a bit more dangerous in this sense. The author recommends achieving Knowledge and Conversation first, so that your HGA can help you traverse this terrain without a map and without becoming imbalanced or insane.

(sorry this is OT neimad, but this topic raised an interesting point about map vs. terrain)

Sounds like a really interesting book Sean. How great is the tie-in between alchemy and magick (both in that book and in general)? Magic is not an area I have previously looked into, but that could change!

My first spiritual experiences were in a "magickal" context so it's likely I am biased. But my opinion is that alchemy is actually a form of magick. Magick was defined by "Uncle Al" as the "the Science and Art of causing Change to occur in comformity with Will". This definition is very broad in that it can cover anything from growing tomatoes to opening your MCO. It's also very deep, for example notice the definition does not say "your will". It just says "Will" with a capital "W". Very significant in that the definition does not posit duality. Because at it's highest level it means aligning yourself with the "Supreme Will", or in other words, getting your ego out of the way so your actions become a pure expression of Reality. Something like that.

[edit]Forgot to answer your second question about the book. Stephen Mace, the author, started out in a Western Ceremonial Magic framework (Thelema) and went on to work with much of the experimental magical of the 70s and 80s, including Mantak Chia's material which he respects and has apparently incorporated into his own work. This book builds some fascinating bridges between the energetic/alchemical approaches to magick and the spiritual and psychological models. If you're not familiar with these models, here is a good summary.

Sean that founds fantastic. I looked it up on Amazon and it was out of print. The only second hand copy was priced at £100! So, hold on to it.

I'm actually thinking along the lines of starting an experimental Magick group. The intention would be to work together to eventually produce an initiatory system that others could use and that wasn't full of historical myths, some guru's messianic leanings, superstition or outmoded and ineffectual techniques. When ready, the system would be fully disclosed with explanations of why things are the way they are. This would cut out the 'secrets most high' bullshit that Magick cults use to pull in recruits and keep them there, but I hope it that it would still be attractive to people just genuinely interested in exploring the power and wonder of Magick. In my opinion the secrets are all openly shared, it just takes practice and work to make any use of them.

I dunno what it will be like to be honest, if it ever happens. But something will happen and thats what matters to me.

And oh yeah, AOS is cool though I'm not that familiar with him. I mostly just flicked through books of his art or read the occasional Chaos Magick article on him.

Thanks for the reply and the link (very interesting link and site, which I will now take some time to read). What would you recommend as a good book to start with on this kind of thing, not magick as magick, but the "energetic/alchemical approaches to magick", or using magick to direct internal energies? (Other than just reading that site)
Thanks

Get it for a tenth of the price here:

Amazon.com

Blimey! Big difference between UK Amazon and US Amazon.

Yeah, but whats the international shipping (mind you, must be less that £80!)

5 - 10 day delivery - £6.50
11 - 18 day delivery - £4.25

btw, apart from getting books on the cheap I've no financial interest in amazon.com.

I just returned from a 5 animals retreat and I agree as to the organ correspondance of mr Falk.

Also, the emphasis on Shen is most obvious in the Monkey form, which also is the form which blend the other forms into one.

The Deer form also tones the kidneys, while the tiger form releases tension or imbalance related to the liver.

The bear vents and discharges heat from the heart, while the bird also harmonizes the lungs and spine.

On a more direct level, the different animals have other more profound qualities, but that's a different matter

Hope this is a little helpful

h

i got a reply from mr ducane himself and his association is all the same apart from one difference.

tiger relates to spleen and monkey relates to lungs.

for me tiger fits very well with spleen.... but monkey and lungs doesn't seem as good an association...

im just gonna ask my shen though as peter suggests and see what they are happy with.

we have an energy body here to use as the medium for communication between us and the physical, so why not learn to talk to it huh? haha.

You can also order from the publisher: http://www.dagonproductions.com
or from here: http://www.ravenoir.com/

Not sure if any of these will have cheaper shipping or not.


Honestly the material coming out of Mantak Chia's stream is the best energetic/alchemical magick I've found. But as far as relating this approach to the spiritual/psychological approach, here are some good ones:

Stealing the Fire from Heaven, Stephen Mace
Initiation into Hermetics, Franz Bardon
The Tao and the Tree of Life, Eric Yudelove

I can lend you any of these if you are interested.

Sean.

Thanks for the list. I've got Tao and the Tree of Life somewhere, so I'll add that to the (large) pile of books to be (re)read soon, and I'll google/amazon the Bardon book (having already done so for the Mace one).

Thanks for the loan offer too. I'll check out my local book stores for these (and any similar ones I can find) as a starting point.

Cheers

I'm no longer actively involved in Western Magick because I think that for me personally chi kung and the Tracker School philosophy material is more effective. If I was going to do anything with it again, I would use Jan Fries's material as primary sources.

I would describe his approach as speculative shamanism more than anything else. He draws from AOS, chi kung, NLP, other traditional neo-pagan material, and he also delves into the archaelogical record of various early peoples and makes some educated guesses as to what their religious/magickal practices were and then he tries out those practices.

http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/search-h...9096254-9238356

Living Midnight is a speculative approach to Taoist magick and he cites Chia in his bibliography.

Seidways focuses on using shaking to enter trance states.

Helrunar focuses on Northern European magick and actually has one of the best chapters I've seen on dealing with energy imbalances.

Visual Magick and Cauldron of the Gods were good too.

A decent secondary source is Phil Hines' books. He is more straight chaos magick but he still has some interesting ideas if you are drawn down this path.

Good luck,

Tenguzake

Cool, thanks a lot Tenguzake. I'll look into those when I get some time (whenever that might be, time is still as elusive as ever!)

Yes, thank you very much Tenguzake. I was unaware of Jan Fries. Really cool stuff, I'm going to pick up his "visual magick".

I'm glad you guys are enjoying his stuff.

Here is Jan's website:
http://www.noctilucae.com/janfries/

And here is a sample of his writing:
http://www.noctilucae.com/janfries/article1.htm

You may do better buying his books through his publisher, Mandrake of Oxford than from Amazon. Amazon can take a long time to get his books to you.

Be Genki,

Tenguzake

After chekcing out the links, I myself will be picking up "Living Midnight: Three Movements of the Tao". I've been starved for some 'run of the mill' material.
Here's the exerpt:

Seems this is the very stuff that I am really interested in lately. When I can find the rare time...I also engage in fantasy/role playing D&D gaming. But its hardly ever these days......nonetheless I still enjoy it.

PLUS I have always wanted to, but haven't actually gotten to check out the I CHING. Well, I know of it, and looks at those sites where they'd randomly cast for you...but a part of me says you can perceive more by gaining knowledge for yourself and using your own interpretations. Guidance is good at times but total submission can also work against your important growing ambitions.

Danchke, Mehkeim, Gratse.

Rememberance is powerful-
retention of the ages can open a very significant recollection of capabilities you could never imagine...
-Jessica

i had the taoist immortals show up in a class i was teaching one day when it was really hard and absolutley draining me. if i can dig up the story, i'll post it here.

you gotta tell us this one!

I've got this book. I quite like the experimental approach it has. 'Living Midnight' is a great term for the shamanic take on the Mysterious Pass too

i found the story stored on yahoo, but for some reason it wont open it or let me down load it. i typed it on another computer here in china back in '03. which means this computer in china could have trouble iwth it. shit like that happnes here. no i have to see if someone at home has kept a file of these and if so, can they copy and paste it into a new document.