As is obvious pakua is largely about circles of movement, and for me at least pakua is basically about standup grappling (I hold the same view regarding taiji). I drew these two diagrams to help illustrate this to a friend of mine and I thought they might be of some interest to folks here as I saw the other pakua threads.

This one shows the three core circles, they are routes to project force, (much like xingyi 5 forms are routes to project force). They also correspond to the first three forms in stock Cheng style.



This second one is the circles in relation to an opponent.



To give respect and credit to where I got this approach, it was from the writings of Tim Cartmell and the videos of Eric Luo.

For me, pakua is basically about your ability to spin around an opponent (not walk around him like you are walking the circle, but pivot out of his attack) and about your ability to get in tight against an opponent (and mitigate his ability to nail you with a punch/elbow/knee). I do not subscribe to an idea that pakua is "deep" or "unlearnable" by the masses. {warning: inflamatory statement following} Everything that is in pakua is in standard Iowa college wrestling....everything. Pakua just puts it in an "exotic" package. Let me be quick to add, I love pakua, I practice it several times a week, I hope to teach it someday but movement is movement so to speak.

Take care,
Brian

Thats why bagua has linear and circle stepping cover all ranges!

Thanks for posting your thoughts....

Brian,

I agree with your approach to Bagua. Bagua is a martial art and deals with the interchange of energies between you and your opponent. Traditional Bagua contains the elements of Xing Yi, Tai Chi and Liang Yi. Using those elements in connection with Bagua theory combined with explosive "Fa Jing" movements, Bagua is a fantastic combat art.

You should take a look at Wudang Bagua on youtube. At Wudang all the internal arts are explosive and combative...not just form.

Wudangspirit

I think Luo Laoshi would add:
Both you and opponent circling around a common center.

Good Morning Buddy,
Yeah, I should have remembered that from Luo Laoshi's teaching. On a broader note, let me say Happy Chinese New Year to you and your family. I know we had our cyber-fights before but one of my resolutions for the new year was to (try) and cool it with the cyber screaming matches and to patch things over with people I have gotten into it with before.

Truth be told I can not actually remember what we first were arguing about, but I do remember it got nasty. If I remember right it was over on George Wood's old forum, although it may have been Empty Flower. In any event I apologize for the past trouble and appreciate talking with you.

Take care,
Brian

Back to you and yours Brian. It's water under the bridge (a Daoist reference?) My apologies back.

Cheers,

Buddy

he he , things are always what they seem arent they?


but of course....

no you dont. you practice college wrestling. not that there is anything wrong with that....lol

You're in top form Proc.

Why do I get the feeling Brian would be your total superior in Pakua??


Love. He loves it and has made it his own. He can 'think' in it. Its not a mysterious eastern mistress to him. Its a buddy.


Michael

You mean...pal, bro, cuz, chum...? Buddy is taken!

Right, Buddy is taken.

I remember well back when I started pakua back in California back in 1983, that pakua was viewed as some "super mystical", "special" martial art that was supposed to be kind of the "PhD. of chinese martial arts". And I remember white guys "ohhhing and aaaahing" when they first saw it and heard all the talk about the I-Ching and vortexes of chi and all the rest.

And let me be quick to add, I was one of those white guys with his mouth hanging open in amazement. But then the years go by and it becomes quite obvious that it is human movement, and that is that.

Here in Taiwan it is just another Chinese martial art. No one views it as being much different than any other traditional Chinese martial art. In an interesting side note, one of the things that is supposed to make pakua so "deep, profound and mysterious" is the use of the Yi Jing symbols but in fact that way of talking about things is used in other martial arts including the Northern Shaolin art of 3 Kings Cannon Pounding (an art favored by bodyguards of the late Qing) and by Taiwanese Crane Boxing.

I should take a moment and give thanks and praise to someone. This guy is often kicked and kicked pretty hard by the martial arts forums but I owe him a big thanks, so I will send it through cyberspace right here and now. I send thanks and praise to Bruce Kumar Frantiz. He learned from Wang Shu Jin and then he taught the guy (Dirk Johnson) who taught me. If I remember right Buddy studied under the guy too, so Buddy knows him.

take care,
Brian

Ive heard that there is daoist chanting whilst walking the circle i actually drum the I ching and walk the circle or Yin Yang which is very trancy and the yin yang vibrations go through you.

errr, you mean in college wrestling just exotically packaged ?I am sure he is.......Now superior or not that is not the issue, lets not make this personal shall we? I am really greatfull to Brian. It is a really valuable piece of info that in Kumar's lineage bagua is akin to college wrestling. Its interesting that Buddy is of the same lineage.

While I am often critical of the current situation, I owe a LOT of what I have to Kumar. He taught me how to see the truth.

Lets me remember something i read about hermits in the mountains of China doing nothing all day but walking in a circle and chanting 1 particular mantra to come in a certain state of mind.

Could you elaborate on that.

Minkus,

Do you know any of the chants walking the bagua? Ive read it i think in a book on Taoist magic???

regards
WYG

Nopez, i dont know a specific chant these hermits used although i guess its not that black and white and yust as people use several mantra's for several purpose i assume they also had many diffrent ones.

Maybe repeating the name of each bagua or hexigram from the I ching?

Thanks
WYG

Walk the circle for an hour a certain day, no or not many palmchanges.

Walk the circle for an hour another day, no or not many palmchanges but with a ipod on with the song you absolutely like best in the whole world, repeat that same song for 1 hour.

See the diffrence

"It is a really valuable piece of info that in Kumar's lineage bagua is akin to college wrestling."

Miro,
Care to site your source? BTW I'm Yizong.

"Could you elaborate on that."


I could, but my views are unpopular.

Buddy the quote above is mine and source is Brian in this thread.

Miro,
I'd be happy to show you some "collegiate wrestling." You clearly didn't understand Brian's reference and once again in your phony monk passive aggression, merely want to stir the shit. What's the matter, begging at the temple ain't making enough to buy cigarettes?

Buddy i am not Miro but i know Miro, so lets share a smile. I remember him as a straight shooter not at all like passive aggressive myself. i did not know he smoke..

Too late, you're found out.

Procurator;
I value a persons words based largely on their background and their willingness to stand behind their talk. Not to pry into your personal affairs but rather to appraise how seriously I should consider your words, is this your pakua background?

Dolmetscher und Assistent von Meister Chen Shuicai 陳水才bei 2-wöchigem Intensiv-Work- shop in Süddeutschland, mit Bagua muzhang 八卦母掌und Wuxingquan 五行拳 (Xingyi- Grundform)

If you are Mr. Hermann G. Bohn, I realize you are running a business down island and that it can be a complicating factor in mixing cyber-names with real names; and I fully understand that so no problems. But for the reasons mentioned I just thought I would ask.

In any event take care,
Brian

i am flattered but no I am not him and thanks for considering my words at all even unseriously. "We are a nation of unserious people"- P. Buchanan, he he...just read his article today.

now as to my words ...you admit yourself that you have made a controversial statement and i just happen to disagree. I practice Chen and dont practice bagua, however all internal styles have something in common and that something distinguishes all of them from external activities, like wrestling.

I have not seen 94 y o college wrestler doing this:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KZdtM5p6ZkA&search=bagua

Wow, cooperation is a handy thing. I couldn't watch all of it. Notice the other old guy gets slightly moved by real leverage and the younger guys hop about like bunnies. Silly.

did you see the other one when the old guy shakes the tree, that was one cooperative tree ...young too.

You only posted one clip. Hitting a tree with neijing is one thing. Causing someone to hop away by pointing is another. Tell me when the tree hops.

For anybody who ever wondered what Cheng style pakua would look like in a real fight between skilled Cheng style pakua practitioners, have a look at this Youtube video. You will note it has nothing to do with nice old Chinese guys playing around. It would look like the tieups and throws demonstrated here in various high level competitions. Cheng style pakua is basically standup grappling and throws.

Warning it has a heavy metal/death metal soundtrack, so if that is not you taste be sure to turn the volume down.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=f5KpF8yAG1o

I realize the mystery is part of pakuas appeal and if you like pakua because you think it is going to give you some mystery power that is fine (as long as you stay off the mat) but as a historian I am simply saying that is not original pakua. And as a side note, anyone who thinks that any Asian martial art is more subtle, sophisticated or otherwise better than western martial arts is simply showing their ignorance and has not trained in any western martial art. Western boxing and western wrestling are on par with anything from the Mysterious East.

Take care,
Brian


Oh, I should have mentioned, although all the clips show good pakua wrestling, in particular at 1:10 into the clip there is a guy who really shows quick "kou pu" and "bai pu" (that is the two basic pakua steps, inward step and outward) and can really spin. For folks not familiar with pakua, its strong suit, what it does more than anything else is work on spinning.

Okay enough on that,
take care,
Brian

That's Bagua?

Looks like Judo.

I thought Bagua involved large circular movements around your opponent, more like Aikido?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JH2g5ZOgrEo

Points well taken Brian. When my son was wrestling in high school, I used to train with him. Very impressive training regimen and effectiveness on the takedowns, submissions, and pins. That's when I knew I no longer physically intimidated the boy - from then on I was running on respect. I've had the ?pleasure? to spar with a few good Western boxers as well, quite a few times I remember looking up from the floor not quite sure how I got there. I respect anyone who dedicates themselves to martial training, irrespective of style or geography. In my experience, it's much more about the practitioner and the teacher than about the style or nationality. People tend to be too concerned with magic, especially here in the States.

That looks like Bagua

Buddy could you explain the truth Kumar taught you how to see.
thanks

Well, BKF himself told some pretty amazing, "superhuman" stories of CIMA masters (including Wang Shu Jin)...so are you saying he was wrong - even though you still highly admire him?

Yes, as far as I am aware every human being who has walked this earth has been right about some things and wrong about others. In a similar vein every author who has ever written is right about some things and wrong about others and yes, I still appreciate his work.

take care,
Brian

"Buddy could you explain the truth Kumar taught you how to see."

Again, yes I could. But I will demur.


Kumar said a lot of things about a lot of things. He was right about many of them.

Thanks for sharing.

Oh come on Buddy, when has that ever stopped you so far? Besides, they're not unpopular to everyone, I enjoy your posts for the most part. I'm not at lest the 3rd wanting to know what you meant, so come, why not tell us?

To be a crass commercialist, because it's what people pay me money for.

What?


edit: I looked it up on google and I still don't get what a crass commercialist is.

Hello Brian,
as I might have mentioned, I am no MA. But I did get some MA training mostly as a side effect to study meditation with a guy who was once a top martial artist. Now one of the things that I learned from Bruce is that in inetrnal martial art, from a certain point, the game is to be able not to have your consciousness gap, as well as, to use the gaps of the opponent to strike him. Now, I might not be able to do this, but my teacher Alan is, I suspect Buddy is too, and Bruce for sure is still able to do that.

Now I have never heard of anything remotely similar to that in any western martial arts.
Please do correct me if I am wrong.

Pietro

This from Wikipedia:
"Flow is the mental state of operation in which the person is fully immersed in what he or she is doing, characterized by a feeling of energized focus, full involvement, and success in the process of the activity. Proposed by psychologist Mihály Csíkszentmihályi, the concept has been widely referenced across a variety of fields."

I would argue it's the same thing.

I though so, so I did ask this very question to the big man.
I was told that no they are not.
I experience flow when I play Go. It is a fascinating game, ancient, and that requires a full concentration. But I was told that that kind of concentration excludes the whole world by making you concentrated in a single point. It is in fact quite easy to have, and anyone who have a higher degree must have experienced it or you don't get concentrated enough to study a subject. Now the concentration Bruce speaks about, by his own admission, is a
continuous concentration that does not exclude the whole world. My understanding is that the first one would not make you a buddha, although it might keep you focused enough to dissolve through most of the shit in your 6 energy bodies. But is the second one, the continuous, not gapping that does not exclude the world that he is talking about when he is speaking of the concentration in MA, and in meditation.

The Big Man...heh.
I know he says that, I disagree. It's in his financial interest to separate his method from others.

Look Pietro,
You seem to a real nice guy, I mean that. And your a good loyal soldier, I was too. But what Bruce proclaims isn't the end of the conversation. Someone asked me the other day at a workshop I was teaching, "You and this guy and that guy and this person from the old days all left...that's odd."

What could I say?

That you were interested in martial art, and Bruce is now teaching Taoism.

LATE ADDITION:sorry, long answer, but many things I meant to tell you from a long time.


Buddy, honestly do you really care about Taoism. You care about enlightenment, you care about martial art. But for you if your techniques come from a buddhist school or a taoist school would be just as good.

I don't care about Martial Arts. I don't enjoy them and I dissolved any reason for which I would care for them.

But I love Taoism. I fell in love for it 20 years ago and I have never recovered. I went through phases in which I would read the classics, even though at the time I knew no one around who was interested. I went to Chia's school for other reasons, but also interested because it advertised Taoist Internal Alchemy. I found very little Taoism over there. Eventually I started looking for more and that's when I met Bruce.

I am not interested in MA, and Bruce is not (that) interested in them either. It is a game. The time for martial arts has ended. It has ended with the revolt of the boxer. And sometimes you get tired of a game, especially if you are doing a lot of dissolving. Especially (2!) if your body has been ruined to the point that you cannot play it well anymore. Do you want to crucifix him for this.

But he loves teaching meditation. You think it is all mumbo jumbo, but in the other thread you have someone who healed herself from a bad psychosis using meditation. Using the meditation that Bruce is teaching. Is this without value? Ask Jane.

You might think it is not Taoist, and he is not the repository of a taoist lienage. But what does your teacher (with all due respect of him as a martial artist) know of Liu as a Taoist? In a time where if people knew you were a Taoist you could be dead the next day. Liu consistently teached to Bruce refering to the classics.

He gave trasmission of the three texts (Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu, I Ching) to Bruce. I know this because I am working through the Lao Tzu with Alan. Who has been discussing it with Bruce himself. If the practices were really Buddhist wouldn't Liu have taught Bruce using Buddhist sutra?

If the practices were only from Buddhism, wouldn't we have only one version of what can be done? Instead we know that according to Buddhist you can "be in" 1-7 energy body, or in 2-8. But not in 1-8. While according to Taoists you can be in 1-8. Translating in lay man terms means that according to Buddhist you can't be fully awakened (8 energy body) and alive (first energy body). While for Taoist you can become an "immortal", that is someone who is 1-8 energy body. All those are just words for us who have not reached those hige levels, but they point to a consistent picture.

When Liu was declared enlightened and he left for the mountains, my understanding is that he had (at least) already reached the "body of individuality" (which does exist in Chinese, just the translation is Bruce's). So why going there? And why after coming back teach Taoism, and not Buddhism?

Look, this coming March, in Germany, he is teaching a workshop on the middle Tan Tien. As you know that has never been taught before. It is going to be a workshop in meditation. But the Middle Tan Tien is also in the 16 Nei Gung, so it should also be of interest to you. Why don't you come again? I would not have suggested this for another workshop, but this one looks interesting.

Also in Taoism there are many referenced to "empty the heart" (which incidentally can also be translated as opening the heart). Working on the middle tan tien is a big thing. And is absolutely "taoist" work. So it is meditation, it is taoism, it is not martial arts, and it is not beginners work. Come and see if it is really all new age mumbo jumbo to fill up his swimming pool, or we are really working.



I bought a few weeks ago a book called the attention revolution. This is a Buddhist book on keeping yourself focused for long period of time. It is in 10 lessons, and I think after all my training I might be at the level 2 or similar. It is a huge work. And I would say that it is really non -flow. I would also think that on this Bruce position would be quite in agreement (although I found some differences in how Bruce teaches about relaxing in being concentrated, which I could not find in the book at all). There is no "flow" school. And surely no "flow" school from which Bruce has to protect himself. Flow is an ancient experience, but psichologically a new concept. But there are similar teachings in Buddhism. If Bruce just wanted to fill his pocket wouldn't he try to make his teachings as different from "free" buddhism as possible?


Don't know how much I will be able to post in the week end,
Pietro

If people are seriously interested in the psychology of martial arts then what they need to do is turn to modern research in neurology and sports psychology and stop playing around with half baked Taoist nonsense. Daoism does some things very well and some things very poorly. Daoist psychology is pre-modern and wrong about 99.99% of the time.

Look more towards things like this:
http://www.jssm.org/combat/1/10/v5combat-10abst.php

Now of course if one enjoys studying Daoist psychology for whatever reason that is fine. But it is not a good source for modern martial arts mental training.

Take care,
Brian

Hello Brian,
thanks for clarifying your position.

Now it sounds like the problem is to find out which of us is the ignorant one, right?
I mean, what I know, and what you know can't both be true at the same time.
So one of us could be right, and the other must be wrong.

"Buddy, honestly do you really care about Taoism. You care about enlightenment, you care about martial art. But for you if your techniques come from a buddhist school or a taoist school would be just as good."

NO, I don't care about any -isms.

"I don't care about Martial Arts. I don't enjoy them and I dissolved any reason for which I would care for them.

But I love Taoism. I fell in love for it 20 years ago and I have never recovered. I went through phases in which I would read the classics, even though at the time I knew no one around who was interested. I went to Chia's school for other reasons, but also interested because it advertised Taoist Internal Alchemy. I found very little Taoism over there."

Ah. happy for you.

"I am not interested in MA, and Bruce is not (that) interested in them either."

No, Bruce can't DO then any more and they are not as lucrative as teaching slackers lazy shit.

"It is a game. The time for martial arts has ended. It has ended with the revolt of the boxer. And sometimes you get tired of a game, especially if you are doing a lot of dissolving. Especially (2!) if your body has been ruined to the point that you cannot play it well anymore. Do you want to crucifix him for this."

Not at all. But I've known him for a lot longer than you. YOU brought this on him. I know how and by whom the current situation evolved. I'm trying my hardest to not break his rice bowl.

"But he loves teaching meditation. You think it is all mumbo jumbo, but in the other thread you have someone who healed herself from a bad psychosis using meditation. Using the meditation that Bruce is teaching. Is this without value? Ask Jane."

Look, I'm trying my be to not be a bad guy anymore. But ask Kumar about Jane. Then get back to me. Until then, STFU about it.

"You might think it is not Taoist, and he is not the repository of a taoist lienage. But what does your teacher (with all due respect of him as a martial artist) know of Liu as a Taoist? In a time where if people knew you were a Taoist you could be dead the next day. Liu consistently teached to Bruce refering to the classics."

Yes, that's what you've been told. What if I told you Bruce told someone else something different entirely? How about the fact that those who knew Liu better say something different?

"He gave trasmission of the three texts (Tao Te Ching, Chuang Tzu, I Ching) to Bruce. I know this because I am working through the Lao Tzu with Alan. Who has been discussing it with Bruce himself. If the practices were really Buddhist wouldn't Liu have taught Bruce using Buddhist sutra?"

I can get deeper into this whole "revealing" thing, but it won't convince the converted.

"If the practices were only from Buddhism, wouldn't we have only one version of what can be done? Instead we know that according to Buddhist you can "be in" 1-7 energy body, or in 2-8. But not in 1-8. While according to Taoists you can be in 1-8. Translating in lay man terms means that according to Buddhist you can't be fully awakened (8 energy body) and alive (first energy body). While for Taoist you can become an "immortal", that is someone who is 1-8 energy body. All those are just words for us who have not reached those hige levels, but they point to a consistent picture."

Quote a separate source other then Bruce.

"When Liu was declared enlightened and he left for the mountains, my understanding is that he had (at least) already reached the "body of individuality" (which does exist in Chinese, just the translation is Bruce's). So why going there? And why after coming back teach Taoism, and not Buddhism?"

Quote a separate source other than Bruce.

"Look, this coming March, in Germany, he is teaching a workshop on the middle Tan Tien. As you know that has never been taught before. It is going to be a workshop in meditation. But the Middle Tan Tien is also in the 16 Nei Gung, so it should also be of interest to you. Why don't you come again? I would not have suggested this for another workshop, but this one looks interesting."

See above.

"Also in Taoism there are many referenced to "empty the heart" (which incidentally can also be translated as opening the heart). Working on the middle tan tien is a big thing. And is absolutely "taoist" work. So it is meditation, it is taoism, it is not martial arts, and it is not beginners work. Come and see if it is really all new age mumbo jumbo to fill up his swimming pool, or we are really working."

Go to Beijing, ask Zhu Baojen, or the student's that Liu was supposed to not have.

Pietro,
What if you knew one of Bruce's top and most well known students committed a crime, say like when a dentist fucks one of his patients while they are asleep. Or a therapist takes advantage of a patient. Something that could, under normal circumstances send that person to jail. Would you say (even if that person is well respected among your community still) that the training was effective? How about if it was all covered up from the top because it might have been able to be traced that far?

Please don't presume to ever preach to me boy. I walk my talk always.


There are none so blind as those who will not see.