Dear tao bums,
Sorry for maybe starting a flame war the first thing I do but I believe this is of utmost importance. It is the reason why I joined, to be able to post about the things I have read here that I believe should be straightened out once and for all.
There's a relatively new movement around, the people in it make a lot of claims. In almost every post I have seen claims that they are the most authentic, the "only way", that they are following the "old style" where secrecy is part of that style, and where sharing means "I share the very basics that aren't even needed, with you, for 3000 USD, in a year you will have to spend 3000 more to get more basics that you don't need". All while implying this system is what gives the best results and that "you need this".
I have been a member in their forum, quietly observing what's happening.
Soon my membership there is ended because they will now charge 250 USD to allow you to even be in the forum as a spectator. All you can do as a spectator is to get news updates regarding training.
All this is done in the light of "we are just trying to keep the unserious people out".
Have you seen the double morals of a televangelist? They have fortresses and private jetplanes etc, all in the "name of the lord". It all reminds me of this very thing.
They do have very nice tactics - I have seen several people banned for only speaking their mind and raising perfectly same questions. Why? Well, everytime someone is a money-threat to them, they get kicked out immediately.
The tactics? Oh how can I put them all down from just my memory....
-If you teach others you will hurt people and get bad karma. We have immortals on our side (we'll see how immortal they are in 50-70 years) that will frown upon you if you don't follow "our ways".
-The system you practise now will give you kidney problems at best, or even kill you.
-The system you practise now doesn't give you anything, perhaps it's even dangerous.
-If you don't have a real teacher to give you an initiation you can forget about it all. (Nonsense, who initiated the first ones from the beginning? It's like reiki - who needs initiation to be able to heal? NO ONE). Surely a healer can help with blockages and such, but that's all there is to "initiation".
-A representative of this group will soon post in this thread stating that I am making a fool out of myself, that I am endangering the relationship between the west and the east - just to make all the students worried that they might get all the teachings and become enlightened or get super immortal powers. This is the worst tactic of them all, because it turns people against eachother because of EGO. This is not only evil, it is NEFARIOUS.
-The china trip is 7200$ but what David didn't tell some of the students is that they needed to pay even more to get initiation/healing/treatment from D's alleged master in China, otherwise the practise would not be as useful or maybe even "useless". (This involves killing big animals to steal their life force/chi).
-In the forum they go about the teachings as "it's now or never" "buy it now or the prices may go up soon" "take the deal now as Dr D has offered to teach this now but may not later". It's like a warehouse with special-ultra-limited-offers, buy now while you still can!
Now, do this system have something to teach? Sure it does, but it's far from secret and exclusive knowledge.
And you know what the best part is? Groups will form where people send money to one person and they share within the group. Wouldn't you say this is karma in a direct way? Funny how it works, isn't it?
Anyways, I wish D.V. would see what he's really doing here. He is not playing with respect to the old ways, the old ways were never meant to be this prostituted, nor secret like they all claim. In fact, this should be more of a open and welcomming community, which of course carefully screen their students to help them with their progress. It's not about being in the center of things and being "authorities" of who gets to teach and where only rich people can afford the teachings. This is what they have reduced theh teachings to and it is NOT honorable in the "old ways" as they so proudly say all the time.
This is another thing - how can David help his students with energy blockages and such that they say may arise from practise? He lives in China. The student/master relationship is one of strong bonds and friendship - and as he's the only representative that will teach these methods (according to them) - how can he have time to offer help to his students and screen their progress? No, you will have to pay 3000 USD in order to get to the next course and there he may be able to work with you.
Of course, being the only with authority to teach this, as D claims, is only a way to make sure no one makes the big bucks out of this teaching. It's not about helping others to make the world a better place, even if this behaviour is hidden with fancy words and xing pling plong fang gong jong-techniques to hide what's really going on.
Do I dislike them? No. They have given into their egoistic side, it happens to the best of us. We should always be aware of this side of ourselves, the side that wants authority, power, admiration, etc. If we don't, these aspects that we all have will take over. Make no mistake about it. Even a high level practioner has to beware of this, no matter what level.
Of course, as I pointed out, this post will not be seen for what it is - one that is made from a pure intention of good will for each and everyone. I have a lot of respect for the masters and schools in china. But spirituality is altruistic in nature, not for the rich only. Ever heard of the stories of the great masters that started out very poor but still became one of the most powerful people around?
My dear dear friends, you are all part of god and we are all in this together. Everyone who does not lead astray and trust that their own path will lead them to liberation will rely on their own confidence that this can be achieved by anyone who has the right determination and dedication. You don't need to spend 50000$ to realize this, but it's hard to be confident at times. This leads to your mind seeking easier and "more correct" ways. There are no easy ways, dedication is what pays off. Start meditation today, learn how to breath, take it easy and don't strain your legs too much, stretch, read up on subjects, find an altruistic teacher. There's many books around that describe high level practises (Six yogas of naropa, clear light of bliss, Mahamudra, etc). You have resources around you, realize that and make good use of them. Don't look at people who say "our way is the only way" - when you meet such people, run as fast as you can!
Of course, the representative will point out that I am wrong in this, but anyone who has seen both his and the posts from this group will know what I am talking about. The slandering of all the others paths and then the double sided saying that the people who don't agree are making the situation between east and west more tense, when in fact they themselves are going about these teachings in a very disrespectful way - not only for slandering and infecting the community (which they say they want to avoid), but for prostituting these teachings to an insane degree.
Another funny thing is that both the "Xing Shen Zhuang" instructor in Denmark and in Sweden also teach "Healing tao", when this system is so heavily bashed. Oh yes, I have done my research.
Of course the group I am talking about is the "http://www.traditionaltao.com/" group.
Good resources for your consideration (not personally sponsoring these but I want to share resources):
http://www.robertpeng.com/robert_peng.html (also "the real deal")
http://www.chikung-unlimited.com/Chakra-Meditation.html (good and cheap courses, looks like a very altruistic and good-willed teacher).
http://www.wudangtao.com/store/product.cgi/57/Videos
http://www.kunlunbliss.com/books.html
http://www.universal-tao.com/article/exercises.html
http://www.alchemylab.com/golden_flower.htm (this I find important and enlightening)
There's much more of course, it is my hope that this post will reach out to as many as possible because I believe what is being done is against the spirit of the old teachings and honorable ways.
Of course I will be bashed, threatened, etc... but this post is because I do love you all, and I do want everyone to experience what a wonderful world we live in, full of mysteries to discover.
Thanks for reading,
Chanwu
Keys: Traditional tao, Xing Shen Zhuang, Sheng Zheng Gong, Foundation Training Forum
Hi Chanwu,
I itended to stay out of topics like these because there can be no real win-win situation. It is always turning round in circles. Some say "yes", other "no", some "good", some "bad"... quite boring actually. While a student I am no fool and I am not a representative to say that clear?
I just wonder. What is your true intent? You won'T scare any away who do not want to be scared away and those who are with you are with you even without your posting.
Are you at least clear about that you leave no space for arguing productively against you, as you already pre-classify it as " a representtive who will... "bash", "threaten" etc. etc. etc." ???
Let me say one thing clear. You could be absolutely right and you can be downright wrong. There is no way for you to know for sure though, whatever your believes, understandings, ethics, moral or whatever.
THIS is important to realize!
And more important thing to realize: Everybody is responsible for their own decisions!
I have seen and partaken in groups who are, lets say: "double-edged"... and there is always the chance to say that in retrospect... claiming it in advance is troublesome though, although understandable. What you do here could easily explaine with specific terminology taken from pschology... no need to do it though. Just want to point out at the "double-edge" of your post as well, which was only written in the name of love...
no sarcasm here.
There are here and there bits in your post that do not represent full truth... just your interpretation of things.
I understand your worries. I have them myself. But an honest worry does not formulate full-fledged conviction.
just a few thoughts
call me a fool. Call me a sinner. Just don't call me representative please...
Harry
I itended to stay out of topics like these because there can be no real win-win situation. It is always turning round in circles. Some say "yes", other "no", some "good", some "bad"... quite boring actually. While a student I am no fool and I am not a representative to say that clear?
I just wonder. What is your true intent? You won'T scare any away who do not want to be scared away and those who are with you are with you even without your posting.
Are you at least clear about that you leave no space for arguing productively against you, as you already pre-classify it as " a representtive who will... "bash", "threaten" etc. etc. etc." ???
Let me say one thing clear. You could be absolutely right and you can be downright wrong. There is no way for you to know for sure though, whatever your believes, understandings, ethics, moral or whatever.
THIS is important to realize!
And more important thing to realize: Everybody is responsible for their own decisions!
I have seen and partaken in groups who are, lets say: "double-edged"... and there is always the chance to say that in retrospect... claiming it in advance is troublesome though, although understandable. What you do here could easily explaine with specific terminology taken from pschology... no need to do it though. Just want to point out at the "double-edge" of your post as well, which was only written in the name of love...
no sarcasm here.
There are here and there bits in your post that do not represent full truth... just your interpretation of things.
I understand your worries. I have them myself. But an honest worry does not formulate full-fledged conviction.
just a few thoughts
call me a fool. Call me a sinner. Just don't call me representative please...
Harry
Hello Harry, thanks for the reply.
I agree with you. My post is a counter-weight on lady justice's scales of balance.
I believe it's a needed post and the points and concerns needed to be raised.
Good luck with your practise!
I agree with you. My post is a counter-weight on lady justice's scales of balance.
I believe it's a needed post and the points and concerns needed to be raised.
Good luck with your practise!
Chanwu,
Although your point may be a good one in respect to a lot...okay a majority of groups out there are just there to take your money, but we all need teachers or should I say guides to show us something we don't know or something that may already be in front of our noses.
I don't think we need to use our forum to bash other websites or forums. This is a place of learning. At least that's why I am here. To learn or listen to something or someone with some insight.
We can go on and on bashing others because it is obvious that there are scammers out there however we are here to have fun and talk. Do we make snide remarks sometimes..."yes". Do we seem to correct each other or debate..."yes". But our intentions are good I think. Not here to ruin other's reputation.
Our Tao is Our Tao and that is just for us and no one else. We have Masters or teachers to help guide us to see our own path. There are many ways to see that. Some techniques or lineages may be more efficient than others based upon our personal experiences. But that is just it! It's for ourselves.
In Taoism there is a saying...."We are here to be entertained by life not to entertain life." So lets just enjoy our forum!
Wudangspirit
Dear tao bums,
Sorry for maybe starting a flame war the first thing I do but I believe this is of utmost importance. It is the reason why I joined, to be able to post about the things I have read here that I believe should be straightened out once and for all.
There's a relatively new movement around, the people in it make a lot of claims. In almost every post I have seen claims that they are the most authentic, the "only way", that they are following the "old style" where secrecy is part of that style, and where sharing means "I share the very basics that aren't even needed, with you, for 3000 USD, in a year you will have to spend 3000 more to get more basics that you don't need". All while implying this system is what gives the best results and that "you need this".
I have been a member in their forum, quietly observing what's happening.
Soon my membership there is ended because they will now charge 250 USD to allow you to even be in the forum as a spectator. All you can do as a spectator is to get news updates regarding training.
All this is done in the light of "we are just trying to keep the unserious people out".
Have you seen the double morals of a televangelist? They have fortresses and private jetplanes etc, all in the "name of the lord". It all reminds me of this very thing.
They do have very nice tactics - I have seen several people banned for only speaking their mind and raising perfectly same questions. Why? Well, everytime someone is a money-threat to them, they get kicked out immediately.
The tactics? Oh how can I put them all down from just my memory....
-If you teach others you will hurt people and get bad karma. We have immortals on our side (we'll see how immortal they are in 50-70 years) that will frown upon you if you don't follow "our ways".
-The system you practise now will give you kidney problems at best, or even kill you.
-The system you practise now doesn't give you anything, perhaps it's even dangerous.
-If you don't have a real teacher to give you an initiation you can forget about it all. (Nonsense, who initiated the first ones from the beginning? It's like reiki - who needs initiation to be able to heal? NO ONE). Surely a healer can help with blockages and such, but that's all there is to "initiation".
-A representative of this group will soon post in this thread stating that I am making a fool out of myself, that I am endangering the relationship between the west and the east - just to make all the students worried that they might get all the teachings and become enlightened or get super immortal powers. This is the worst tactic of them all, because it turns people against eachother because of EGO. This is not only evil, it is NEFARIOUS.
-The china trip is 7200$ but what David didn't tell some of the students is that they needed to pay even more to get initiation/healing/treatment from D's alleged master in China, otherwise the practise would not be as useful or maybe even "useless". (This involves killing big animals to steal their life force/chi).
-In the forum they go about the teachings as "it's now or never" "buy it now or the prices may go up soon" "take the deal now as Dr D has offered to teach this now but may not later". It's like a warehouse with special-ultra-limited-offers, buy now while you still can!
Now, do this system have something to teach? Sure it does, but it's far from secret and exclusive knowledge.
And you know what the best part is? Groups will form where people send money to one person and they share within the group. Wouldn't you say this is karma in a direct way? Funny how it works, isn't it?
Anyways, I wish D.V. would see what he's really doing here. He is not playing with respect to the old ways, the old ways were never meant to be this prostituted, nor secret like they all claim. In fact, this should be more of a open and welcomming community, which of course carefully screen their students to help them with their progress. It's not about being in the center of things and being "authorities" of who gets to teach and where only rich people can afford the teachings. This is what they have reduced theh teachings to and it is NOT honorable in the "old ways" as they so proudly say all the time.
This is another thing - how can David help his students with energy blockages and such that they say may arise from practise? He lives in China. The student/master relationship is one of strong bonds and friendship - and as he's the only representative that will teach these methods (according to them) - how can he have time to offer help to his students and screen their progress? No, you will have to pay 3000 USD in order to get to the next course and there he may be able to work with you.
Of course, being the only with authority to teach this, as D claims, is only a way to make sure no one makes the big bucks out of this teaching. It's not about helping others to make the world a better place, even if this behaviour is hidden with fancy words and xing pling plong fang gong jong-techniques to hide what's really going on.
Do I dislike them? No. They have given into their egoistic side, it happens to the best of us. We should always be aware of this side of ourselves, the side that wants authority, power, admiration, etc. If we don't, these aspects that we all have will take over. Make no mistake about it. Even a high level practioner has to beware of this, no matter what level.
Of course, as I pointed out, this post will not be seen for what it is - one that is made from a pure intention of good will for each and everyone. I have a lot of respect for the masters and schools in china. But spirituality is altruistic in nature, not for the rich only. Ever heard of the stories of the great masters that started out very poor but still became one of the most powerful people around?
My dear dear friends, you are all part of god and we are all in this together. Everyone who does not lead astray and trust that their own path will lead them to liberation will rely on their own confidence that this can be achieved by anyone who has the right determination and dedication. You don't need to spend 50000$ to realize this, but it's hard to be confident at times. This leads to your mind seeking easier and "more correct" ways. There are no easy ways, dedication is what pays off. Start meditation today, learn how to breath, take it easy and don't strain your legs too much, stretch, read up on subjects, find an altruistic teacher. There's many books around that describe high level practises (Six yogas of naropa, clear light of bliss, Mahamudra, etc). You have resources around you, realize that and make good use of them. Don't look at people who say "our way is the only way" - when you meet such people, run as fast as you can!
Of course, the representative will point out that I am wrong in this, but anyone who has seen both his and the posts from this group will know what I am talking about. The slandering of all the others paths and then the double sided saying that the people who don't agree are making the situation between east and west more tense, when in fact they themselves are going about these teachings in a very disrespectful way - not only for slandering and infecting the community (which they say they want to avoid), but for prostituting these teachings to an insane degree.
Another funny thing is that both the "Xing Shen Zhuang" instructor in Denmark and in Sweden also teach "Healing tao", when this system is so heavily bashed. Oh yes, I have done my research.
Of course the group I am talking about is the "http://www.traditionaltao.com/" group.
Good resources for your consideration (not personally sponsoring these but I want to share resources):
http://www.robertpeng.com/robert_peng.html (also "the real deal")
http://www.chikung-unlimited.com/Chakra-Meditation.html (good and cheap courses, looks like a very altruistic and good-willed teacher).
http://www.wudangtao.com/store/product.cgi/57/Videos
http://www.kunlunbliss.com/books.html
http://www.universal-tao.com/article/exercises.html
http://www.alchemylab.com/golden_flower.htm (this I find important and enlightening)
There's much more of course, it is my hope that this post will reach out to as many as possible because I believe what is being done is against the spirit of the old teachings and honorable ways.
Of course I will be bashed, threatened, etc... but this post is because I do love you all, and I do want everyone to experience what a wonderful world we live in, full of mysteries to discover.
Thanks for reading,
Chanwu
Keys: Traditional tao, Xing Shen Zhuang, Sheng Zheng Gong, Foundation Training Forum
Although your point may be a good one in respect to a lot...okay a majority of groups out there are just there to take your money, but we all need teachers or should I say guides to show us something we don't know or something that may already be in front of our noses.
I don't think we need to use our forum to bash other websites or forums. This is a place of learning. At least that's why I am here. To learn or listen to something or someone with some insight.
We can go on and on bashing others because it is obvious that there are scammers out there however we are here to have fun and talk. Do we make snide remarks sometimes..."yes". Do we seem to correct each other or debate..."yes". But our intentions are good I think. Not here to ruin other's reputation.
Our Tao is Our Tao and that is just for us and no one else. We have Masters or teachers to help guide us to see our own path. There are many ways to see that. Some techniques or lineages may be more efficient than others based upon our personal experiences. But that is just it! It's for ourselves.
In Taoism there is a saying...."We are here to be entertained by life not to entertain life." So lets just enjoy our forum!
Wudangspirit
QUOTE(Chanwu @ Feb 1 2008, 02:12 PM) 
Dear tao bums,
Sorry for maybe starting a flame war the first thing I do but I believe this is of utmost importance. It is the reason why I joined, to be able to post about the things I have read here that I believe should be straightened out once and for all.
There's a relatively new movement around, the people in it make a lot of claims. In almost every post I have seen claims that they are the most authentic, the "only way", that they are following the "old style" where secrecy is part of that style, and where sharing means "I share the very basics that aren't even needed, with you, for 3000 USD, in a year you will have to spend 3000 more to get more basics that you don't need". All while implying this system is what gives the best results and that "you need this".
I have been a member in their forum, quietly observing what's happening.
Soon my membership there is ended because they will now charge 250 USD to allow you to even be in the forum as a spectator. All you can do as a spectator is to get news updates regarding training.
All this is done in the light of "we are just trying to keep the unserious people out".
Have you seen the double morals of a televangelist? They have fortresses and private jetplanes etc, all in the "name of the lord". It all reminds me of this very thing.
They do have very nice tactics - I have seen several people banned for only speaking their mind and raising perfectly same questions. Why? Well, everytime someone is a money-threat to them, they get kicked out immediately.
The tactics? Oh how can I put them all down from just my memory....
-If you teach others you will hurt people and get bad karma. We have immortals on our side (we'll see how immortal they are in 50-70 years) that will frown upon you if you don't follow "our ways".
-The system you practise now will give you kidney problems at best, or even kill you.
-The system you practise now doesn't give you anything, perhaps it's even dangerous.
-If you don't have a real teacher to give you an initiation you can forget about it all. (Nonsense, who initiated the first ones from the beginning? It's like reiki - who needs initiation to be able to heal? NO ONE). Surely a healer can help with blockages and such, but that's all there is to "initiation".
-A representative of this group will soon post in this thread stating that I am making a fool out of myself, that I am endangering the relationship between the west and the east - just to make all the students worried that they might get all the teachings and become enlightened or get super immortal powers. This is the worst tactic of them all, because it turns people against eachother because of EGO. This is not only evil, it is NEFARIOUS.
-The china trip is 7200$ but what David didn't tell some of the students is that they needed to pay even more to get initiation/healing/treatment from D's alleged master in China, otherwise the practise would not be as useful or maybe even "useless". (This involves killing big animals to steal their life force/chi).
-In the forum they go about the teachings as "it's now or never" "buy it now or the prices may go up soon" "take the deal now as Dr D has offered to teach this now but may not later". It's like a warehouse with special-ultra-limited-offers, buy now while you still can!
Now, do this system have something to teach? Sure it does, but it's far from secret and exclusive knowledge.
And you know what the best part is? Groups will form where people send money to one person and they share within the group. Wouldn't you say this is karma in a direct way? Funny how it works, isn't it?
Anyways, I wish D.V. would see what he's really doing here. He is not playing with respect to the old ways, the old ways were never meant to be this prostituted, nor secret like they all claim. In fact, this should be more of a open and welcomming community, which of course carefully screen their students to help them with their progress. It's not about being in the center of things and being "authorities" of who gets to teach and where only rich people can afford the teachings. This is what they have reduced theh teachings to and it is NOT honorable in the "old ways" as they so proudly say all the time.
This is another thing - how can David help his students with energy blockages and such that they say may arise from practise? He lives in China. The student/master relationship is one of strong bonds and friendship - and as he's the only representative that will teach these methods (according to them) - how can he have time to offer help to his students and screen their progress? No, you will have to pay 3000 USD in order to get to the next course and there he may be able to work with you.
Of course, being the only with authority to teach this, as D claims, is only a way to make sure no one makes the big bucks out of this teaching. It's not about helping others to make the world a better place, even if this behaviour is hidden with fancy words and xing pling plong fang gong jong-techniques to hide what's really going on.
Do I dislike them? No. They have given into their egoistic side, it happens to the best of us. We should always be aware of this side of ourselves, the side that wants authority, power, admiration, etc. If we don't, these aspects that we all have will take over. Make no mistake about it. Even a high level practioner has to beware of this, no matter what level.
Of course, as I pointed out, this post will not be seen for what it is - one that is made from a pure intention of good will for each and everyone. I have a lot of respect for the masters and schools in china. But spirituality is altruistic in nature, not for the rich only. Ever heard of the stories of the great masters that started out very poor but still became one of the most powerful people around?
My dear dear friends, you are all part of god and we are all in this together. Everyone who does not lead astray and trust that their own path will lead them to liberation will rely on their own confidence that this can be achieved by anyone who has the right determination and dedication. You don't need to spend 50000$ to realize this, but it's hard to be confident at times. This leads to your mind seeking easier and "more correct" ways. There are no easy ways, dedication is what pays off. Start meditation today, learn how to breath, take it easy and don't strain your legs too much, stretch, read up on subjects, find an altruistic teacher. There's many books around that describe high level practises (Six yogas of naropa, clear light of bliss, Mahamudra, etc). You have resources around you, realize that and make good use of them. Don't look at people who say "our way is the only way" - when you meet such people, run as fast as you can!
Of course, the representative will point out that I am wrong in this, but anyone who has seen both his and the posts from this group will know what I am talking about. The slandering of all the others paths and then the double sided saying that the people who don't agree are making the situation between east and west more tense, when in fact they themselves are going about these teachings in a very disrespectful way - not only for slandering and infecting the community (which they say they want to avoid), but for prostituting these teachings to an insane degree.
Another funny thing is that both the "Xing Shen Zhuang" instructor in Denmark and in Sweden also teach "Healing tao", when this system is so heavily bashed. Oh yes, I have done my research.
Of course the group I am talking about is the "http://www.traditionaltao.com/" group.
Good resources for your consideration (not personally sponsoring these but I want to share resources):
http://www.robertpeng.com/robert_peng.html (also "the real deal")
http://www.chikung-unlimited.com/Chakra-Meditation.html (good and cheap courses, looks like a very altruistic and good-willed teacher).
http://www.wudangtao.com/store/product.cgi/57/Videos
http://www.kunlunbliss.com/books.html
http://www.universal-tao.com/article/exercises.html
http://www.alchemylab.com/golden_flower.htm (this I find important and enlightening)
There's much more of course, it is my hope that this post will reach out to as many as possible because I believe what is being done is against the spirit of the old teachings and honorable ways.
Of course I will be bashed, threatened, etc... but this post is because I do love you all, and I do want everyone to experience what a wonderful world we live in, full of mysteries to discover.
Thanks for reading,
Chanwu
Keys: Traditional tao, Xing Shen Zhuang, Sheng Zheng Gong, Foundation Training Forum
I understand, Wudangspirit, but I believe my post is important to help people find their way, and take other things into consideration, other than the words from the people involved in "traditionaltao" as they are biased.
It's not meant for "Bashing". I don't believe I will "win" an argument - I am posting so that people who are thinking about joining them, think one extra time and consider my perspective. Surely, truth is subjective, I don't believe anyone in "traditionaltao" is teaching to hurt others.
This post will naturally not be pleasant for this group, but they are making a lot of claims that I cannot, and will not, just stand by and watch without replying.
As I said, I have read a lot on this forum before posting here, and I have done my research and gotten MY view of things.
Take my subjective advice and research as you will, I do raise valid concerns and I know that this will affect people who are thinking of joining this group.
It's not meant for "Bashing". I don't believe I will "win" an argument - I am posting so that people who are thinking about joining them, think one extra time and consider my perspective. Surely, truth is subjective, I don't believe anyone in "traditionaltao" is teaching to hurt others.
This post will naturally not be pleasant for this group, but they are making a lot of claims that I cannot, and will not, just stand by and watch without replying.
As I said, I have read a lot on this forum before posting here, and I have done my research and gotten MY view of things.
Take my subjective advice and research as you will, I do raise valid concerns and I know that this will affect people who are thinking of joining this group.
I am curious Chanwu:
tell me the claims you have trouble with and maybe I am able to give a sensible response.
Harry
Chanwu,
Point taken. I am always pro "truth". We are all, I think, searching for "truth" whatever that may be.
I guess you just want people to think about it before they join.
Sunshine has a point too. What problems do you have with their claims? what claims do they make?
I understand, Wudangspirit, but I believe my post is important to help people find their way, and take other things into consideration, other than the words from the people involved in "traditionaltao" as they are biased.
It's not meant for "Bashing". I don't believe I will "win" an argument - I am posting so that people who are thinking about joining them, think one extra time and consider my perspective. Surely, truth is subjective, I don't believe anyone in "traditionaltao" is teaching to hurt others.
This post will naturally not be pleasant for this group, but they are making a lot of claims that I cannot, and will not, just stand by and watch without replying.
As I said, I have read a lot on this forum before posting here, and I have done my research and gotten MY view of things.
Take my subjective advice and research as you will, I do raise valid concerns and I know that this will affect people who are thinking of joining this group.
Point taken. I am always pro "truth". We are all, I think, searching for "truth" whatever that may be.
I guess you just want people to think about it before they join.
Sunshine has a point too. What problems do you have with their claims? what claims do they make?
QUOTE(Chanwu @ Feb 1 2008, 03:30 PM)
I understand, Wudangspirit, but I believe my post is important to help people find their way, and take other things into consideration, other than the words from the people involved in "traditionaltao" as they are biased.
It's not meant for "Bashing". I don't believe I will "win" an argument - I am posting so that people who are thinking about joining them, think one extra time and consider my perspective. Surely, truth is subjective, I don't believe anyone in "traditionaltao" is teaching to hurt others.
This post will naturally not be pleasant for this group, but they are making a lot of claims that I cannot, and will not, just stand by and watch without replying.
As I said, I have read a lot on this forum before posting here, and I have done my research and gotten MY view of things.
Take my subjective advice and research as you will, I do raise valid concerns and I know that this will affect people who are thinking of joining this group.
Their claims? If the teachings are good or not? I believe they have a lot to teach, but their approach raise many concerns regarding me, I have described these above.
Anyone who wants to reach these levels, anyone seeking enlightenment need only to relax, concentrate/meditate and breathe correctly.
I have a friend who has meditated 6 years, he's a Christian but he believes he can get closer to god by meditation. He is describing very high level (key) experiences only by doing this for one hour each day for 6 years. Don't for one second believe that this isn't a natural process that you can undertake anytime you wish, you just need dedication and to enjoy every minute of your time in meditation.
You don't need to spend all your savings for this, I want that to be perfectly clear.
Chanwu,
Point taken. I am always pro "truth". We are all, I think, searching for "truth" whatever that may be.
I guess you just want people to think about it before they join.
Sunshine has a point too. What problems do you have with their claims? what claims do they make?
Anyone who wants to reach these levels, anyone seeking enlightenment need only to relax, concentrate/meditate and breathe correctly.
I have a friend who has meditated 6 years, he's a Christian but he believes he can get closer to god by meditation. He is describing very high level (key) experiences only by doing this for one hour each day for 6 years. Don't for one second believe that this isn't a natural process that you can undertake anytime you wish, you just need dedication and to enjoy every minute of your time in meditation.
You don't need to spend all your savings for this, I want that to be perfectly clear.
QUOTE(wudangspirit @ Feb 1 2008, 08:57 PM)
Chanwu,
Point taken. I am always pro "truth". We are all, I think, searching for "truth" whatever that may be.
I guess you just want people to think about it before they join.
Sunshine has a point too. What problems do you have with their claims? what claims do they make?
QUOTE(Chanwu @ Feb 1 2008, 02:12 PM)
Soon my membership there is ended because they will now charge 250 USD to allow you to even be in the forum as a spectator. All you can do as a spectator is to get news updates regarding training.
So, even people who are members now will be banned if they don't pony up $250? 
That is quite a large sum to pay for forum access - which is generally free..
While I understand teachings cost money, I have to admit that such fees also seem rather exorbitant to me and have given me some reservations about the marketing of that path. Although the path itself may well be very powerful and legitimate. But who knows, maybe I'm just not "serious" enough yet?
>>Anyone who wants to reach these levels, anyone seeking enlightenment need only to relax, concentrate/meditate and breathe correctly.<<
See Chanwu. You put that out AS IF it were THE truth. To me it is just a simple belief and as simply: I just don'T share it. We can raise the question who of us is right, but we hardly can answer it in a definite way. I sure believe that there is an objective truth, but at the level I am I can not say if my personal truth is closer to it than yours or not.
>>You don't need to spend all your savings for this, I want that to be perfectly clear.<<
Nobody ever claimed that!
>I have a friend who has meditated 6 years, he's a Christian but he believes he can get closer to god by meditation.<
Some already know the story, but I want to repeat it:
at one seminar a girl asked during the question and answer section:
"Why do I need all this. I believe and trust in God that I am saved." (or similar)
and David answered: "You are lucky if you have that strong of a believe. In that case you are right." (or similar as taken from memory)
All others though...
>>So, even people who are members now will be banned if they don't pony up $250?
<<not quite. But it does not have to be outlined here as it does not really belong here I feel.
>>That is quite a large sum to pay for forum access - which is generally free..<<
"generally free". Don't you think there are groups out there who have "closed-parties" without ever having been public? The public forum is simply getting less public and more private. Instead the new webpage is online now with some information shared. Am I happy about the change? I have my troubles but it simply is not up to me and I understand the reasons for the steps being taken.
>>While I understand teachings cost money, I have to admit that such fees also seem rather exorbitant to me and have given me some reservations about the marketing of that path.<<
Well. The sad aspect is that the impression exists - and I fully sense why - that it is a "marketed path".
Harry
I never write as if I have THE truth, as the saying goes - "there's as many truths as there are people", I am extremely flexible with my beliefs and views. I don't take offense if you would make opposite claims, it is your right to do so.
I have aired my feelings about it all. I have read through countless pages from one very active forum participant in particular, one who goes through great lengths to make himself heard and his views heard. This is a direct response to the very hardlined approach this man has.
I believe they have given in to their ego, this is my view, and this is not "the old way" to do things. The "Old way" isn't a secret one, it's one that is earned, not through who can afford it, but through dedication.
That is my view and all I wanted with this post is to get out both sides of the coin, on the net.
I have aired my feelings about it all. I have read through countless pages from one very active forum participant in particular, one who goes through great lengths to make himself heard and his views heard. This is a direct response to the very hardlined approach this man has.
I believe they have given in to their ego, this is my view, and this is not "the old way" to do things. The "Old way" isn't a secret one, it's one that is earned, not through who can afford it, but through dedication.
That is my view and all I wanted with this post is to get out both sides of the coin, on the net.
>>I have aired my feelings about it all. I have read through countless pages from one very active forum participant in particular, one who goes through great lengths to make himself heard and his views heard. This is a direct response to the very hardlined approach this man has.<<
Then it is a pretty personal thing... and allow me to be honest: to air your feelings the moment you "seem" to get excluded is a little... hmmmmmmmmmm...
>>I believe they have given in to their ego, this is my view, and this is not "the old way" to do things. The "Old way" isn't a secret one, it's one that is earned, not through who can afford it, but through dedication.<<
"They" is pretty far fetching especially as it is not clear whom you actually mean. And believe me. A lot of us can not really afford it but are actually VERY dedicated and thereby work on making it possible...!!! The old way clearly is a secret one in many instances... taking your example: How much is "dedication" in order for "the old way" to open?
>>That is my view and all I wanted with this post is to get out both sides of the coin, on the net.<<
Your view is welcome, just that I think everyone who knows of one side should naturally consider the other...
Harry
PS: got to go to bed now...
Then it is a pretty personal thing... and allow me to be honest: to air your feelings the moment you "seem" to get excluded is a little... hmmmmmmmmmm...
>>I believe they have given in to their ego, this is my view, and this is not "the old way" to do things. The "Old way" isn't a secret one, it's one that is earned, not through who can afford it, but through dedication.<<
"They" is pretty far fetching especially as it is not clear whom you actually mean. And believe me. A lot of us can not really afford it but are actually VERY dedicated and thereby work on making it possible...!!! The old way clearly is a secret one in many instances... taking your example: How much is "dedication" in order for "the old way" to open?
>>That is my view and all I wanted with this post is to get out both sides of the coin, on the net.<<
Your view is welcome, just that I think everyone who knows of one side should naturally consider the other...
Harry
PS: got to go to bed now...
It will come as no shock to anyone that I feel this sort of caveat emptor is commendable.
QUOTE(sunshine @ Feb 1 2008, 10:12 PM)
>>I have aired my feelings about it all. I have read through countless pages from one very active forum participant in particular, one who goes through great lengths to make himself heard and his views heard. This is a direct response to the very hardlined approach this man has.<<
Then it is a pretty personal thing... and allow me to be honest: to air your feelings the moment you "seem" to get excluded is a little... hmmmmmmmmmm...
Oh, this is not because I have been excluded, I never intended to join, nor did I do more than just listen to the conversations on the foundation forum. This training is far from exclusive, anyone who wish to attend the courses can go - do they seem to be selective to you? They are not. The only thing that makes it exclusive is the money involved, and the prices above are just for the courses, you need someplace to live and something to eat while there too. And flight tickets. You're in for a lot of spending.
I feel that a lot of people will be mislead by all this and believe this is their only shot at a deeper spiritual life - it's right in front of everyone to pick up and start experiencing. I am afraid that many will live on noodles for 2 years to spend hard earned money on something they would eventually attain with dedication, anyways.
I don't mention full names or anything here because I don't want this to become directed to someone in particular.
I think the approach needs to change a bit, but hey - who am I to judge someone for how they do BUSINESS?
According to a man in the forum, he said "I don't care about the cost, apparently _business_ is good. I am only happy this is available to us through the masters." or something like that.
Yes, it's a business.
When you are working with spiritual matters and call yourself a "master" or "teacher" there is a very important factor: you can BE a teacher, as in it's not your profession, you ARE a teacher, or you can WORK as one, and make it your JOB.
It's a different thing.
And of course, again, this is my view of things.
I invite you to think otherwise - my intention here is to raise a little flag of warning as to what people are in for and that, in my experience, it is not needed at all because all it takes is dedication on your part.
Meditate an hour every day, breathe deep abdominal breathing, develop concentration/focus/blankness of mind and things will come to you, you will change on a very deep level, and after a couple of years even more so.
If you want to spend 10000 dollars to learn these basics you are of course free to do so :-)
Oh here's another good resource, and be sure to check the ones I provided above if you are looking for more knowledge:
http://www.kundaliniawakeningprocess.com/
I found it in the foundation forum - the guy got banned for simply asking questions regarding the approach of the group and the money involved, he's one of the teachers there. Worth checking out imo.
I looked at the guy you called "the real deal." I always wonder why these guys need to prove themselves with magic tricks.
QUOTE(Buddy @ Feb 1 2008, 11:24 PM)
I looked at the guy you called "the real deal." I always wonder why these guys need to prove themselves with magic tricks.
I read a story about him in another forum, plus his testimonials on his site are convincing... if you refer to the dollar bill through the pen I do believe in such things.
A friend of mine have direct experience with being thrown by chi force alone, so a bill through a pen is not so hard for me to believe in.
We all come from different places and have different views based on that.
I take stories from people I trust as personal confirmation.
Like when my life partner talks about haunted houses and such, I don't even need to question the experiences when confronted with them.
That's another story.
I do believe Robert Peng is the real deal... maybe I'll book a session with him in the future and report here ;-)
Chanwu,
No need to defend yourself friend. Your points were well reasoned, well expressed and respectful. The modus operandi of this group and their representatives is to try and nullify your points with sophistry, rhetoric and spin doctoring. Have you noticed how Harry has subtly made you into the "bad guy" and tried to put you on the defensive with his comment:
This is to change the subject, so that it's not about them anymore. It's now about you. His next manoeuvre will be to make the whole thread into a debate about the epistomology of knowledge and the nature of "Truth". Oh wait, he has already done that:
See Chanwu. You put that out AS IF it were THE truth. To me it is just a simple belief and as simply: I just don'T share it. We can raise the question who of us is right, but we hardly can answer it in a definite way. I sure believe that there is an objective truth, but at the level I am I can not say if my personal truth is closer to it than yours or not.
Now there is no point in even debating the subject, because who can really know "truth" anyhow. It's all relative, although maybe the "masters" are much closer to such a thing. Just trust in them, and trust in the wisdom of David because truth is beyond our ability to grasp.
Harry, I am calling bullshit.
No need to defend yourself friend. Your points were well reasoned, well expressed and respectful. The modus operandi of this group and their representatives is to try and nullify your points with sophistry, rhetoric and spin doctoring. Have you noticed how Harry has subtly made you into the "bad guy" and tried to put you on the defensive with his comment:
QUOTE
Then it is a pretty personal thing... and allow me to be honest: to air your feelings the moment you "seem" to get excluded is a little... hmmmmmmmmmm...
This is to change the subject, so that it's not about them anymore. It's now about you. His next manoeuvre will be to make the whole thread into a debate about the epistomology of knowledge and the nature of "Truth". Oh wait, he has already done that:
QUOTE
See Chanwu. You put that out AS IF it were THE truth. To me it is just a simple belief and as simply: I just don'T share it. We can raise the question who of us is right, but we hardly can answer it in a definite way. I sure believe that there is an objective truth, but at the level I am I can not say if my personal truth is closer to it than yours or not.
Now there is no point in even debating the subject, because who can really know "truth" anyhow. It's all relative, although maybe the "masters" are much closer to such a thing. Just trust in them, and trust in the wisdom of David because truth is beyond our ability to grasp.
Harry, I am calling bullshit.
Are you channeling me? 
Chan,
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bc26cBkBxpM&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rnOf6NQWPyA
Chan,
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bc26cBkBxpM&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rnOf6NQWPyA
QUOTE(Buddy @ Feb 1 2008, 11:44 PM)
Are you channeling me?
Chan,
http://youtube.com/watch?v=bc26cBkBxpM&feature=related
http://youtube.com/watch?v=rnOf6NQWPyA
Yeah clearly it's done by using your index finger. But lets leave Robert Peng out of this thread and keep to main topic please :-)
Chan
I think maybe David is charging alot of money so he can stay in China to keep learning and paying for accomidation and spending money. I have been a member of there forum for a long time and it all sounds fasinating i just dont think it should be so much money to learn. I also feel that there probably wont be so much different to what i already know or do anyway.
I was invited to go to the Australian seminar but its so expansive and it isnt what is taught as Lei Shan Do its other stuff, but i only wanted to see what this group does as i have my own path and practices.
All can be attained through proper meditation and energy cultivation i dont believe you have to kill or sacrafice a bull or chicken, burn turtles though.
WYG
I think maybe David is charging alot of money so he can stay in China to keep learning and paying for accomidation and spending money. I have been a member of there forum for a long time and it all sounds fasinating i just dont think it should be so much money to learn. I also feel that there probably wont be so much different to what i already know or do anyway.
I was invited to go to the Australian seminar but its so expansive and it isnt what is taught as Lei Shan Do its other stuff, but i only wanted to see what this group does as i have my own path and practices.
All can be attained through proper meditation and energy cultivation i dont believe you have to kill or sacrafice a bull or chicken, burn turtles though.
WYG
i've been a member of david verdesi's forum for several months and it is full of information you can't get anywhere else. the guy is a tu di disciple of wang liping and close student of john chang; he has reached the level four of the lei shan dao...
intelligent people can decide for themselves whether he is an exceptional person or not and if what he offers has value... just read through the website, it's got sound information and is presented in a mature and responsible way, and it's free...
my experience is basically very positive at the forum and i felt the money for membership to the forum was well worth it... i really don't think it's worth being angry about. either your drawn to it or not, simple.
PS it was clear that the website was just for members to view... man that is really disrespectful to post it all over some other forum... shows a lot about your character to pull something like that...
intelligent people can decide for themselves whether he is an exceptional person or not and if what he offers has value... just read through the website, it's got sound information and is presented in a mature and responsible way, and it's free...
my experience is basically very positive at the forum and i felt the money for membership to the forum was well worth it... i really don't think it's worth being angry about. either your drawn to it or not, simple.
PS it was clear that the website was just for members to view... man that is really disrespectful to post it all over some other forum... shows a lot about your character to pull something like that...
I agree David has knowledge and can also write very well and this helps bring in more students, i feel that 250 is too expansive especially living in Australia with the currency as well the money spent on visiting David and his teachers in euro's will cost the aussies alot more.
If i was rich i wouldnt think twice to visiting china ive been there 6 times already and to meet Wang Li Ping would be an honor for me. Im not really interested in learning there system though just to witness and experiecne the chi abilties is what im after.
WYG
If i was rich i wouldnt think twice to visiting china ive been there 6 times already and to meet Wang Li Ping would be an honor for me. Im not really interested in learning there system though just to witness and experiecne the chi abilties is what im after.
WYG
QUOTE(Wun Yuen Gong @ Feb 1 2008, 06:57 PM)
I agree David has knowledge and can also write very well and this helps bring in more students, i feel that 250 is too expansive especially living in Australia with the currency as well the money spent on visiting David and his teachers in euro's will cost the aussies alot more.
If i was rich i wouldnt think twice to visiting china ive been there 6 times already and to meet Wang Li Ping would be an honor for me. Im not really interested in learning there system though just to witness and experiecne the chi abilties is what im after.
WYG
Verdesi has the market cornered, and he knows it. He charges accordingly. Its simple economics. I wonder if he ever achieves enlightenment if he will drop his prices a little. Just a thought.
You have 3 options:
-you are drawn to it, pay the money and dedicate all your free time to training.
-you are not drawn to it and you move on with your life.
-you are drawn to it but have no money, so you get a part time job to earn the extra cost because you have dedicated your life to a Daoist path and are serious about it.
Complaining how expensive the teachings are is like going to a Ferrari dealership and crying about how you can't afford a fancy sports car. It's very common for spiritual seekers to think that somehow because it's about spiritual cultivation, they are entitled to teachings for free or a very low cost.
There are good options available for poor seekers. Zen, Vipassana, Kunlun are excellent practices and they don't cost much.
Take care, Max
-you are drawn to it, pay the money and dedicate all your free time to training.
-you are not drawn to it and you move on with your life.
-you are drawn to it but have no money, so you get a part time job to earn the extra cost because you have dedicated your life to a Daoist path and are serious about it.
Complaining how expensive the teachings are is like going to a Ferrari dealership and crying about how you can't afford a fancy sports car. It's very common for spiritual seekers to think that somehow because it's about spiritual cultivation, they are entitled to teachings for free or a very low cost.
There are good options available for poor seekers. Zen, Vipassana, Kunlun are excellent practices and they don't cost much.
Take care, Max
"I agree David has knowledge and can also write very well and this helps bring in more students, i feel that 250 is too expansive especially living in Australia with the currency as well the money spent on visiting David and his teachers in euro's will cost the aussies alot more."
Since it's so expensive I guess I'll never know BUT:
He has knowledge or information? There is a vast gulf between those two and an even vaster one between knowledge and skill.
Just sayin'
Since it's so expensive I guess I'll never know BUT:
He has knowledge or information? There is a vast gulf between those two and an even vaster one between knowledge and skill.
Just sayin'
I think he has it cause he is studying under Master Wang li Ping so im hoping he does learn it right!?
If i had money i would like to see what its about to compare to what my system has and if there is any connection to my Primordial Chaos system so those masters could help me on my path.
WYG
If i had money i would like to see what its about to compare to what my system has and if there is any connection to my Primordial Chaos system so those masters could help me on my path.
WYG
This is all just my opinion, but you know human nature never ceases to amaze me. On the one hand we have Lin Aiwei on this forum. He is the epitome of wisdom, compassion, and patience. He is giving away his teachings for FREE! How many of you are going to his weekend seminar? I know 2 maybe 3 people. On the other hand you have David Verdesi. I see a very large ego, a materialistic driven system which will accept virtually anyone with the money, and very questionable practices. Many of you guys are tripping over yourselves to go pay 5000 Euros plus thousands more for the additional healings and "treatments". There's something seriously wrong with this picture.
Someone earlier also quoted that David was a former student of John Chang. What they didn't mention was that John Chang is apparently very upset with David and the way he is operating. I believe they are not even on speaking terms.
Also when all of the commotion about Jiang was happening on this site several months ago, Sean said David had an offer to waive the fee and prove to me that Jiang was legit. I had to join their forum to see the offer, so I did, The offer was that he would waive his fee. I would fly to China and offer to be exposed to Jiang's full power. I would have to sign a waiver that they would not be held accountable if my internal organs exploded or I died... AND THEN I WOULD HAVE TO PAY THE FULL FEE TO MEET JIANG. What kind of people are these? What is the attraction? I just don't get it folks.
Someone earlier also quoted that David was a former student of John Chang. What they didn't mention was that John Chang is apparently very upset with David and the way he is operating. I believe they are not even on speaking terms.
Also when all of the commotion about Jiang was happening on this site several months ago, Sean said David had an offer to waive the fee and prove to me that Jiang was legit. I had to join their forum to see the offer, so I did, The offer was that he would waive his fee. I would fly to China and offer to be exposed to Jiang's full power. I would have to sign a waiver that they would not be held accountable if my internal organs exploded or I died... AND THEN I WOULD HAVE TO PAY THE FULL FEE TO MEET JIANG. What kind of people are these? What is the attraction? I just don't get it folks.
Hey Guys,
The forum attracted a number of young people and individuals in a low income bracket who were and are very sincere. People that, for whatever reason, were attracted but cannot afford the training. I sincerely sympathize with this situation having been a college student once myself. One of the goals of the foundation forum is to eventually provide scholarships for very dedicated young people who lack the funding to enroll in the program.
Just to put things in perspective, the basic foundation training is a three year program that involves a two week commitment once a year and is comparable in cost to other similar programs. One seminar's tuition costs roughly 1,600.00 US dollars and you would need to attend four seminars to complete the training; after the first two seminars the cost is reduced to almost half, about 800.00-900.00 US Dollars. This is a complete training and all one need to progress to a very high level of realization.
Just to say, the cost is not as absurd as this thread claims. Many people at the top of their respective fields charge much more to attend their seminars. The dragondoor.com Guru Pavlave or whatever, is a friend and client of one of David's students. I guess has charged as much as 2,500 for a weekend of personal coaching. And, if you want to get incredibly strong, they say he is one of the absolute best. It's the same kind of thing with David. His students are really serious and want really top instruction, pretty cut and dry honestly.
The masters that David works with include Wang Liping and others of a comparable status. They are heads of huge organizations and have tremendous commitments to literally thousands of students throughout China. Naturally, just to arrange a week of exclusive time with someone like Wang Liping costs a great deal of money, thus the high cost to train with a master. Wang Liping is responsible for overseeing all the Taoist temples in China, in addition to many other duties.
Logically, to attend a training with Warren Buffet on how to make money will cost more than attending a training with someone without his reputation and unquestionable aptitude. It's not such a mystery really.
Again, I sympathize with the desire to have training of such a high caliber with highly qualified teachers available to a wider audience. David and his masters also want people at every socioeconomic to have access to authentic Daoist teachings and some basic teaching will be made available in a book David is writing at Sifu Wang's request.
In the mean time, as Max has said, there are some excellent teachings out there. I can't comment on all his recommendations, but Buddhism really is a perfectly profound teaching. Dzogchen in particular is a very high level system of teachings, with many Daoist influences and commonalities.
As for the forum, we feel that the services offered for our members is well worth the one time fee. Many forums charge much more and on a yearly basis. We charge a one time fee for lifetime membership; $250.00 US dollars. That's less than a dollar a day over the course of a year.
Of course all the basic information is provided on the website (created with funds raised largely from Taobum.com members, thanks guys), so there is no need or requirement to join the forum. I don't see what there is to be so upset over and we have had a good response from our members, many of whom have already signed up.
As for the other accusations, in the entire forum history we banned two people; and only after days of negative ranting on their part. We simple wish to be among fellow students and those like-minded; and for those who share are interests and like the idea of online training and getting their questions answered, it not such a huge deal.
Cheers, Sean
The forum attracted a number of young people and individuals in a low income bracket who were and are very sincere. People that, for whatever reason, were attracted but cannot afford the training. I sincerely sympathize with this situation having been a college student once myself. One of the goals of the foundation forum is to eventually provide scholarships for very dedicated young people who lack the funding to enroll in the program.
Just to put things in perspective, the basic foundation training is a three year program that involves a two week commitment once a year and is comparable in cost to other similar programs. One seminar's tuition costs roughly 1,600.00 US dollars and you would need to attend four seminars to complete the training; after the first two seminars the cost is reduced to almost half, about 800.00-900.00 US Dollars. This is a complete training and all one need to progress to a very high level of realization.
Just to say, the cost is not as absurd as this thread claims. Many people at the top of their respective fields charge much more to attend their seminars. The dragondoor.com Guru Pavlave or whatever, is a friend and client of one of David's students. I guess has charged as much as 2,500 for a weekend of personal coaching. And, if you want to get incredibly strong, they say he is one of the absolute best. It's the same kind of thing with David. His students are really serious and want really top instruction, pretty cut and dry honestly.
The masters that David works with include Wang Liping and others of a comparable status. They are heads of huge organizations and have tremendous commitments to literally thousands of students throughout China. Naturally, just to arrange a week of exclusive time with someone like Wang Liping costs a great deal of money, thus the high cost to train with a master. Wang Liping is responsible for overseeing all the Taoist temples in China, in addition to many other duties.
Logically, to attend a training with Warren Buffet on how to make money will cost more than attending a training with someone without his reputation and unquestionable aptitude. It's not such a mystery really.
Again, I sympathize with the desire to have training of such a high caliber with highly qualified teachers available to a wider audience. David and his masters also want people at every socioeconomic to have access to authentic Daoist teachings and some basic teaching will be made available in a book David is writing at Sifu Wang's request.
In the mean time, as Max has said, there are some excellent teachings out there. I can't comment on all his recommendations, but Buddhism really is a perfectly profound teaching. Dzogchen in particular is a very high level system of teachings, with many Daoist influences and commonalities.
As for the forum, we feel that the services offered for our members is well worth the one time fee. Many forums charge much more and on a yearly basis. We charge a one time fee for lifetime membership; $250.00 US dollars. That's less than a dollar a day over the course of a year.
Of course all the basic information is provided on the website (created with funds raised largely from Taobum.com members, thanks guys), so there is no need or requirement to join the forum. I don't see what there is to be so upset over and we have had a good response from our members, many of whom have already signed up.
As for the other accusations, in the entire forum history we banned two people; and only after days of negative ranting on their part. We simple wish to be among fellow students and those like-minded; and for those who share are interests and like the idea of online training and getting their questions answered, it not such a huge deal.
Cheers, Sean
QUOTE(Oolong Rabbit @ Feb 1 2008, 08:44 PM)
Also when all of the commotion about Jiang was happening on this site several months ago, Sean said David had an offer to waive the fee and prove to me that Jiang was legit. I had to join their forum to see the offer, so I did, The offer was that he would waive his fee. I would fly to China and offer to be exposed to Jiang's full power. I would have to sign a waiver that they would not be held accountable if my internal organs exploded or I died... AND THEN I WOULD HAVE TO PAY THE FULL FEE TO MEET JIANG. What kind of people are these? What is the attraction? I just don't get it folks.
If you would have had the actual commitment to come, David would not have let you get hurt. That's just silly, but then again it's pretty clear that you weren't all that serious.
I recently met with Sifu Jiang. The man who discredited him on his blog has since apologized; the newspaper article was a complete tabloid fabrication. The student is now helping Jiang publish a retraction.
Anyway, Jiang burnt blisters into all of our hands from over a meters distance with no preparation or physical contact. David also insisted that Jiang remove his clothing to pass the electric like surge of qi which was incredibly strong and overwhelming and doesn't require any training on the receiving end to be perceived, no battery pack.
Anyway, Anwei is a fine teacher. I wish you success in your training.
Peace, S
Sean,
C'mon, it's a business. Don't try to bullshit anyone otherwise. How much money did Jesus charge anyone for his teaching? I don't have a problem with people charging for their services, not by a long shot. But Warren Buffets success is a proven commodity, you just offer promises.
Mr. Buffet's method can be had readily, there's folks who worked for him who wrote books about it. He didn't threaten anyone with curses from the gods like you guys do. You're a bullshit cult.
C'mon, it's a business. Don't try to bullshit anyone otherwise. How much money did Jesus charge anyone for his teaching? I don't have a problem with people charging for their services, not by a long shot. But Warren Buffets success is a proven commodity, you just offer promises.
Mr. Buffet's method can be had readily, there's folks who worked for him who wrote books about it. He didn't threaten anyone with curses from the gods like you guys do. You're a bullshit cult.
It is all delusion.
There can never be a real teacher for something that everyone inherently knows inside anyway.
Realization only comes through ones own work, regardless of the discipline.
Subscribing to teachers, techniques, etc... all just deepens the fantastic delusion of all that just simply is.
The world is already a magical place without need to subscribe to even more fantastical, and completely misunderstood terms like "chi" etc.
My mind boggles when I even think of a tiny little red blood cell carrying around an oxygen molecule that I just breathed in from the air.... that is the real magic.
There can never be a real teacher for something that everyone inherently knows inside anyway.
Realization only comes through ones own work, regardless of the discipline.
Subscribing to teachers, techniques, etc... all just deepens the fantastic delusion of all that just simply is.
The world is already a magical place without need to subscribe to even more fantastical, and completely misunderstood terms like "chi" etc.
My mind boggles when I even think of a tiny little red blood cell carrying around an oxygen molecule that I just breathed in from the air.... that is the real magic.
QUOTE(Buddy @ Feb 1 2008, 09:21 PM)
Sean,
C'mon, it's a business. Don't try to bullshit anyone otherwise. How much money did Jesus charge anyone for his teaching? I don't have a problem with people charging for their services, not by a long shot. But Warren Buffets success is a proven commodity, you just offer promises.
Mr. Buffet's method can be had readily, there's folks who worked for him who wrote books about it. He didn't threaten anyone with curses from the gods like you guys do. You're a bullshit cult.
I don't really know how to respond to that. All I can say is that David and his teachers are in demand and very well respected in China. Wang Liping really is the guy who determines what is taught in the Daoist temples in China, monks and lay people wait years just to meet him. You don't have to believe me I guess.
Warren Buffet's advice might be in a few books, but how many people personally apprentice with him and get hands on assistance and mentoring, very few.
Ok, guys. I'll leave you to it. To each his own.
"Warren Buffet's advice might be in a few books, but how many people personally apprentice with him and get hands on assistance and mentoring, very few."
No, Sean. They're not. Just go to a Borders. Please talk about what you know
People stand in line to get to a WWF show, it doesn't make it real.
What David is doing is a business. Did the Buddha charge for his teaching? If I go to Sri Lanka or Cambodia or Nepal now, and say to a monk..I can't afford to pay you. What do you think they'd say? I already know.
Just be up front that it's a straight up marketing scheme. I'd at least respect that. Oh, and don't mention the Revenge of the Gods.
No, Sean. They're not. Just go to a Borders. Please talk about what you know
People stand in line to get to a WWF show, it doesn't make it real.
What David is doing is a business. Did the Buddha charge for his teaching? If I go to Sri Lanka or Cambodia or Nepal now, and say to a monk..I can't afford to pay you. What do you think they'd say? I already know.
Just be up front that it's a straight up marketing scheme. I'd at least respect that. Oh, and don't mention the Revenge of the Gods.
Yes, the training that David provides is a business. Yep, it's not Buddhism which is usually free, not always; generally the teacher receives financial support from his students. David live a typical middle class life, he's not rich.
I'm the only one doing any marketing in the states. And I'm a volunteer school teacher.
Revenge of the Gods? Um, you lost me there.
Is this conversation really necessary? I mean, I have really moved on.
Good grief
I'm the only one doing any marketing in the states. And I'm a volunteer school teacher.
Revenge of the Gods? Um, you lost me there.
Is this conversation really necessary? I mean, I have really moved on.
Good grief
OK my two cents. I have been holding up for a long time but I am going to show you the real deal (nothing new btw):
I like many of you have lived many lives. I recall quite a few but two of them are the most significant in terms of spiritual development:
1. Taoist Baguazhang master and bodyguard of the Chinese Emperor.
2. Lama (my previous life).
Hence I am a Sotapanna (stream-enterer), that is none that is guaranteed enlightenment after no more than seven successive rebirths, and possibly in fewer. The stream-enterer can also be sure that he or she will not be reborn in any of the unhappy states or rebirths (that is, as an animal, a preta, or a being in hell). He can only be reborn as a human being, or in a heaven.
The stream-enterer has attained an intuitive grasp of Buddhist doctrine (samyagdṛṣṭi or sammādiṭṭhi, "right view"), has complete confidence or Saddha in the Three Jewels of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, and has good moral behaviour (Sila). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment).
Sorry if I sound as a show-off. No please, don't misunderstand me. I did it because I feel that making money out of the spiritual path is wrong, and I feel sorry for those who seek siddhis instead of a good moral behaviour and success in the spiritual path in terms of enriching their spirits.
I work and I will work until I pay my debts, once I accomplish this I will become a renunciate in order to finish what I couldn't in my previous life because I was killed but the Chinese during the invasion of Tibet.
Remember that the Buddhist spiritual path is pure and free of charge:
http://www.buddhanet.net/
Vipassana meditation is the best meditation technique of all:
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1...abbata.html#N50
Free of charge in Buddhanet.
When combined with Zhan Zhuang (also practiced by Gautama Buddha) and moving Qigong (Xingyi, Taiji, Bagua, I Liq Chuan, Ziranmen, etc.) then you'll speed up the process.
Taoist practices are awesome to strengthen our spirits, body's and chi but they won't open a door out of Samsara. Buddhism does.
But hey, I am not trying to confront these two at all, far from that as I practice both
Good luck, persevere in your practice and remember that many lives are required to reach Nirvana.
I like many of you have lived many lives. I recall quite a few but two of them are the most significant in terms of spiritual development:
1. Taoist Baguazhang master and bodyguard of the Chinese Emperor.
2. Lama (my previous life).
Hence I am a Sotapanna (stream-enterer), that is none that is guaranteed enlightenment after no more than seven successive rebirths, and possibly in fewer. The stream-enterer can also be sure that he or she will not be reborn in any of the unhappy states or rebirths (that is, as an animal, a preta, or a being in hell). He can only be reborn as a human being, or in a heaven.
The stream-enterer has attained an intuitive grasp of Buddhist doctrine (samyagdṛṣṭi or sammādiṭṭhi, "right view"), has complete confidence or Saddha in the Three Jewels of Buddha, Dhamma, and Sangha, and has good moral behaviour (Sila). (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_stages_of_enlightenment).
Sorry if I sound as a show-off. No please, don't misunderstand me. I did it because I feel that making money out of the spiritual path is wrong, and I feel sorry for those who seek siddhis instead of a good moral behaviour and success in the spiritual path in terms of enriching their spirits.
I work and I will work until I pay my debts, once I accomplish this I will become a renunciate in order to finish what I couldn't in my previous life because I was killed but the Chinese during the invasion of Tibet.
Remember that the Buddhist spiritual path is pure and free of charge:
http://www.buddhanet.net/
Vipassana meditation is the best meditation technique of all:
http://www.angelfire.com/indie/anna_jones1...abbata.html#N50
Free of charge in Buddhanet.
When combined with Zhan Zhuang (also practiced by Gautama Buddha) and moving Qigong (Xingyi, Taiji, Bagua, I Liq Chuan, Ziranmen, etc.) then you'll speed up the process.
Taoist practices are awesome to strengthen our spirits, body's and chi but they won't open a door out of Samsara. Buddhism does.
But hey, I am not trying to confront these two at all, far from that as I practice both
Good luck, persevere in your practice and remember that many lives are required to reach Nirvana.
Girls and guys,
due to a new job I am pretty tight with time and do not have enough room to read through all that has been written so far. But I feel the need to address what Oolong wrote: I have not the slightest intent to make anybody a "bad guy". Neither openly nor subtly!
In a way you continue to amaze me: We both could argue a lot and I have personal gripes with your approach because you seem to always choose to paint the possible negative. Now. Is this again a try to make you look as the "bad guy"?
And yes: I absolutely see human truth as relative. I DO believe in an objetive truth & I DO believe there are people more close to it than others. And I DO assume "these" masters are. Do I know for sure? Simple answer: I don't!
Chanwu and I simply have a different believe about things. I personally do not believe that meditating one hour a day and deep bellow breathing etc. will lead you "there". If I were to believe it I would do it. The story with the "girl and her believe in God" was meant to point that out clearly. There sure ARE different ways towards "the" destination (whatever it is)... I chose one because I believe in it. And I believe not every way actually leads you there.
One more: I want to tell you openly: I have absolutely NO clue what the way is to actually realize the "objective" truth without having the "subjective" interfere. Once again though I assume it is possible. Practice hopefully gets me closer to it... and if it happens I doubt it is clearly expressable so that everybody can understand.
By the way: thankx Max!
bye
Harry
due to a new job I am pretty tight with time and do not have enough room to read through all that has been written so far. But I feel the need to address what Oolong wrote: I have not the slightest intent to make anybody a "bad guy". Neither openly nor subtly!
In a way you continue to amaze me: We both could argue a lot and I have personal gripes with your approach because you seem to always choose to paint the possible negative. Now. Is this again a try to make you look as the "bad guy"?
And yes: I absolutely see human truth as relative. I DO believe in an objetive truth & I DO believe there are people more close to it than others. And I DO assume "these" masters are. Do I know for sure? Simple answer: I don't!
Chanwu and I simply have a different believe about things. I personally do not believe that meditating one hour a day and deep bellow breathing etc. will lead you "there". If I were to believe it I would do it. The story with the "girl and her believe in God" was meant to point that out clearly. There sure ARE different ways towards "the" destination (whatever it is)... I chose one because I believe in it. And I believe not every way actually leads you there.
One more: I want to tell you openly: I have absolutely NO clue what the way is to actually realize the "objective" truth without having the "subjective" interfere. Once again though I assume it is possible. Practice hopefully gets me closer to it... and if it happens I doubt it is clearly expressable so that everybody can understand.
By the way: thankx Max!
bye
Harry
Verdesi does have the top masters in the world, however I disagree with his business model.
Knowledge was meant to be free, not secret and sold to the highest bidder.
Also I think if Verdesi made instructional dvd's for the foundation training, and sold them for $500 (requiring a NDA) he would make MORE than he is now, because it would be available to more people and vastly more affordable.
Knowledge was meant to be free, not secret and sold to the highest bidder.
Also I think if Verdesi made instructional dvd's for the foundation training, and sold them for $500 (requiring a NDA) he would make MORE than he is now, because it would be available to more people and vastly more affordable.
Changed my mind. 
Like I've said, I have no problem with folks needing to pay the mortgage. But when you indoctrinate someone into a belief system and then use that belief system against them when they don't toe the line, that's a cult. Sounds like the Medieval Christian Church...don't follow the pope, burn for eternity.
BTW this is not meant to be directed at Mr. Wang, although he allows the practice. I read Cleary's book and found it to be very fanciful, sort of like the Wandering Taoist. But I don't know the practices so won't comment on them.
BTW this is not meant to be directed at Mr. Wang, although he allows the practice. I read Cleary's book and found it to be very fanciful, sort of like the Wandering Taoist. But I don't know the practices so won't comment on them.
from what i know Jiang doesnt charge one penny
i dont know about Liping, but i expect to be the same
so i let you figure it out
also i know that money are very important to Chinese people, they even have money for the dead.
it is like sex, that in the West has been satanized over the centuries
money had the same fate in the West
But the Grand East sees Money a lot different than us. for us any association between money and spirit is of bad taste. but to them is a form in which you show them your "Sincerity".
so, having these anthropology facts, and those above, you draw whatever conclusion you want.
the truth is, i know of students that are payed BY the teacher, so that they can study and afford to study.
why is that, is because real students are very scarce, very rare. if they are to find one, they are looking everywhere, and sometimes they take him out of the cradle of his childhood only to teach him fresh... just like our friend Radu was searching.
and i expect that, whatever paradoxically the situation may be, the real thing to be the same even with Liping and Jiang. there are two categories of students:
- smart students that pay
- stupid students that pay
and the third would be
- real students, part of the familiy, of which you sometimes dont even suspect they are students at all
these may sound as fancifull theories, but just keep them in mind, maybe someday will help
Little
PS: About DShen i dont know anything and wont comment. although time will show what is it all about. he has a very respectable business, his students are sharp and smart and dont get fooled as easily as most of you guys think. he just told them that he had what they want, and demonstrated that he can deliver.
what more could you want. especially if you afford it, and want to Finally Figure It Out. Liping has the best credentials ever. and his association with David is taken as a guarantee. its fool-proof. imagine that all the guys there paying all that doll' turned and searched every corner.
i met them on the forum (admit it SeanD, i wasnt that bad, you kicked me out because i was saying Mantak's methods are good, and the rest of you didnt agree, so, David knew i wouldnt shut up so he did what any Chinese would do - im past that, and am really impressed by your progresses, they are shown in the tone and discipline of your messages)
what to do? there is a proverb that says People Throw Rocks At What They Cant Reach
i guess, as Max said, everyone should stick to what their possibilities can afford, and move on, carry on.
if David proved anything to us with SeanD's Forum, is that you require a lot of work to make a good method yield results.
they practice a couple of hours a day, for God's sake! if any of us would be that dedicated, im pretty sure they would get the same best results, if not better. it is all in the amount of Trust and Dedication you grant your Practice and System and Teacher.
take care and let the trolling for trolls
i dont know about Liping, but i expect to be the same
so i let you figure it out
also i know that money are very important to Chinese people, they even have money for the dead.
it is like sex, that in the West has been satanized over the centuries
money had the same fate in the West
But the Grand East sees Money a lot different than us. for us any association between money and spirit is of bad taste. but to them is a form in which you show them your "Sincerity".
so, having these anthropology facts, and those above, you draw whatever conclusion you want.
the truth is, i know of students that are payed BY the teacher, so that they can study and afford to study.
why is that, is because real students are very scarce, very rare. if they are to find one, they are looking everywhere, and sometimes they take him out of the cradle of his childhood only to teach him fresh... just like our friend Radu was searching.
and i expect that, whatever paradoxically the situation may be, the real thing to be the same even with Liping and Jiang. there are two categories of students:
- smart students that pay
- stupid students that pay
and the third would be
- real students, part of the familiy, of which you sometimes dont even suspect they are students at all
these may sound as fancifull theories, but just keep them in mind, maybe someday will help
Little
PS: About DShen i dont know anything and wont comment. although time will show what is it all about. he has a very respectable business, his students are sharp and smart and dont get fooled as easily as most of you guys think. he just told them that he had what they want, and demonstrated that he can deliver.
what more could you want. especially if you afford it, and want to Finally Figure It Out. Liping has the best credentials ever. and his association with David is taken as a guarantee. its fool-proof. imagine that all the guys there paying all that doll' turned and searched every corner.
i met them on the forum (admit it SeanD, i wasnt that bad, you kicked me out because i was saying Mantak's methods are good, and the rest of you didnt agree, so, David knew i wouldnt shut up so he did what any Chinese would do
- im past that, and am really impressed by your progresses, they are shown in the tone and discipline of your messages)what to do? there is a proverb that says People Throw Rocks At What They Cant Reach
i guess, as Max said, everyone should stick to what their possibilities can afford, and move on, carry on.
if David proved anything to us with SeanD's Forum, is that you require a lot of work to make a good method yield results.
they practice a couple of hours a day, for God's sake! if any of us would be that dedicated, im pretty sure they would get the same best results, if not better. it is all in the amount of Trust and Dedication you grant your Practice and System and Teacher.
take care and let the trolling for trolls
QUOTE(Little1 @ Feb 2 2008, 08:10 AM)
from what i know Jiang doesnt charge one penny
i dont know about Liping, but i expect to be the same
I appreciate the kind post. I should be mentioned that Jiang and Liping do charge. For Liping, the government demands payment for his time, especially for foreigners.
Again, I understand this idea of taking money for spiritual practice being taboo in the States; or anywhere for that matter. It will likely always be viewed suspiciously by some. The Chinese view it as a test of sincerity and determination; as well as intelligence to have the ability to master money and demonstrate an acceptable level of aptitude in the material world.
Money=metal, which is the base of alchemy.
When I was studying with Liping, he said he really wants the teachings to spread. That's why he is writing a book with David to share some of the basic outer teachings openly. For those who reach a good level, doors will open.
QUOTE
Taoist practices are awesome to strengthen our spirits, body's and chi but they won't open a door out of Samsara. Buddhism does.
Wang Liping is a Buddhist and a Daoist. Many Daoist lineages have produced living Buddhas, just as prolifically as Buddhism the formal religious entity. Wang Liping is a Buddha on a par with Padmasambava, but he doesn't go around making claims, he doesn't need to. And he can demonstrate all the powers of a Buddha not just talk about it. The point is not to make silly comparisons to show one is better than another. Daoism is Dharma, only people with limited understanding see a distinction. i think we could see a paradigm here:
step 1 - since the Indian tantric gurus came to the West, the West started to reconsider SEX as it can be a tool for self improvement, and even help us to evolve spiritually...
step 2 - since the Chinese qigong masters came to the West, we started to reconsider MONEY as being a valuable asset in spiritual development...
Of course, we are still in the middle of that process now, because there are more people out there having SEX than having MONEY. But sometimes you need MONEY in order to have SEX, well... some people do. Boy is this a puzzle...
QUOTE(Little1 @ Feb 2 2008, 12:37 PM)
step 1 - since the Indian tantric gurus came to the West, the West started to reconsider SEX as it can be a tool for self improvement, and even help us to evolve spiritually...
step 2 - since the Chinese qigong masters came to the West, we started to reconsider MONEY as being a valuable asset in spiritual development...
None of these masters who overtly gave importance to Sex, much more than what was necessary, sometimes towing away other rather required practices, were REAL masters anyway. Of course, there were exceptions like Yogananda who really wanted to teach the West. Most were and are really those who saw/see a great potential to make money in the west. In India, most understand the practices or have at least heard something about what really takes one to enlightenment and these BS guys stand no chance there. As an Indian, it is sometimes painful for me to see these Gurus who know nothing, exploiting some sincere westerners for sex and money. A master leads a simple life, does not build establishments around himself that tie him down, teaches only the sincere student and the teaching is never in exchange of money. Though these are the requisites of a real Indian master, I don't see why it should be different for a true master from any other culture. A Master, who is enlightened, is not affected by Karma as the sphere of Karma is lifted on enlightenment. The identification with one's limited self and attachment to the results of the actions performed are what cause Karma and these cease after enlightenment. So the karmic exchange theory oft quoted for exchange of money in spiritual matters does not make sense. Nature takes care of the enlightened master and he never worries about his physical sustenance or pursues material goals specifically. The ancient scriptures prophesied the 'Newage Gurus' thousands of years ago:
The gurus of today are shisha-hrit-tapa-haraka: [shishya - disciple's, hrit-heart; tapa-agony; haraka:-take away]. But in later days, they will be shishya-vitta-apaharaka: [shishya-disciple's, vitta-money; apaharaka:-take away]. Also, how could some bonding between a disciple and his master, established on the basis of whatever energy pattern that 'money energy or metal' can have, do the disciple any good and burn any karma? All this is business at the end of the day and it would be better to simply acknowledge the same than come up with phony excuses. Not many masters today are 'really' enlightened and in such cases, considering their need to make a living, charging money is not bad, but giving a metaphysical touch to this exchange certainly is, IMHO....
Charging is not a problem.
The problem is:
Overcharging, hidden fees when people already have paid 5000 euros where the master kills huge animals for you to be healed... huge fee that the students don't get told about in advance, and a very questionable practise in itself
The "buy now or never approach", being selective as to who got the most money, ... I have already gone through most of it in my starting post.
D will get around, at least, 100.000$ for only the summer seminar. So you can see how much this brings each year, if he has 4-5 of those a year.
You say that the chinese look upon money as a part of the "metal in alchemy", surely that may be so, but this is not a balanced cost at all. And this is a very prostituted approach, if you ask me. He would be excluded from many of the pais for doing this, it is not what the teachings are meant to be about.
Charging is one thing, as I said, but getting rich from it, is another. Him getting rich means he has to take from many and keep all for himself, while he give out something that is no product but is completely free and natural for us all. It's like stealing something and then selling it back to the same person for money.
And the fact that he doesn't want the teachings to spread from his own students, or that he doesn't let anyone else teach the first forms of meditation, clearly shows that he wants monopoly.
Of course, he is in the process of releasing books and dvds - this will make him even richer because not only will you get basic instructions from these but you need to buy the really expensive stuff to move on from there. And with him being the only authority and the "only one able to pass on initiations".... well you do the math.
I feel sorry for both D and his students...
The problem is:
Overcharging, hidden fees when people already have paid 5000 euros where the master kills huge animals for you to be healed... huge fee that the students don't get told about in advance, and a very questionable practise in itself
The "buy now or never approach", being selective as to who got the most money, ... I have already gone through most of it in my starting post.
D will get around, at least, 100.000$ for only the summer seminar. So you can see how much this brings each year, if he has 4-5 of those a year.
You say that the chinese look upon money as a part of the "metal in alchemy", surely that may be so, but this is not a balanced cost at all. And this is a very prostituted approach, if you ask me. He would be excluded from many of the pais for doing this, it is not what the teachings are meant to be about.
Charging is one thing, as I said, but getting rich from it, is another. Him getting rich means he has to take from many and keep all for himself, while he give out something that is no product but is completely free and natural for us all. It's like stealing something and then selling it back to the same person for money.
And the fact that he doesn't want the teachings to spread from his own students, or that he doesn't let anyone else teach the first forms of meditation, clearly shows that he wants monopoly.
Of course, he is in the process of releasing books and dvds - this will make him even richer because not only will you get basic instructions from these but you need to buy the really expensive stuff to move on from there. And with him being the only authority and the "only one able to pass on initiations".... well you do the math.
I feel sorry for both D and his students...
Very nicely put.
yes nicely put, but the last sentence "I feel sorry for them" just doesnt add...
Their situation doesnt seem to require any complaining on their part
Chanwu, I understand your frustration, please dont be upset, I am sure things will get better for you in some other way, cheer up
Their situation doesnt seem to require any complaining on their part
Chanwu, I understand your frustration, please dont be upset, I am sure things will get better for you in some other way, cheer up
I am in no way frustrated, I am concerned, that is all.
Buddy didn't mean my post, I think. But thanks for the compliment.
Buddy didn't mean my post, I think. But thanks for the compliment.
QUOTE(seandenty @ Feb 2 2008, 12:58 PM)
Hey Guys,
The masters that David works with <i>include Wang Liping and others of a comparable status.</i> They are heads of huge organizations and have tremendous commitments to literally thousands of students throughout China. Naturally, just to arrange a week of exclusive time with someone like Wang Liping costs a great deal of money, thus the high cost to train with a master. <b>Wang Liping is responsible for overseeing all the Taoist temples in China, in addition to many other duties.</b>
AND later:
<b>Wang Liping really is the guy who determines what is taught in the Daoist temples in China, monks and lay people wait years just to meet him.</b> You don't have to believe me I guess.
Hi seandenty!
For a student, you certainly made a lot of claims about something that may be too deep for you or your teacher(s) to know or understand.
As far as I am aware, Wang Liping from Quanzhen has reached an immortal level. But you guys have been marketing him as Lei Shan Dao, now a Buddha and what not. Based on that, I am not surprised to hear that John Chang is annoyed with your teacher commercializing the teachings.
Then you claimed that Wang Liping is responsible for all Daoist temples in China and is the guy who determines what is taught in these temples. That is bull shit. I doubt he claims that unless he is not what I think he is.
Do you or your teacher David know about the existence of heavenly immortals in Quanzhen temples in China? If you do, perhaps both of you would be a bit more circumspect in your claims.
Regards
allan
>>Like I've said, I have no problem with folks needing to pay the mortgage. But when you indoctrinate someone into a belief system and then use that belief system against them when they don't toe the line, that's a cult.<<
Where you got that from Buddy?
Chanwu,
Why in heaven do you so much care about something that does not really affect you? You are not interested in it and you don't pay. No reason to vent your anger on something that shouldn't even be touching you. Energy could be better spent with something else I honestly feel.
You want to protect people from "it", fine. Seems to be a nice thing to do. But I feel it is of absolutely no benefit to go into length into enumerating all things you do not like if you by no means have been affected yourself, do not know what is being discussed behind the scenes (you just have your landscape of "extenal picture" and quite a few things of what you raise as "problematic" are discussed and have solutions) and so many other things.
Really guys. In psychology one would very likely say you are projecting something here... (Oolong. Is this again a wicket try to make Chanwu look like the "bad" or "silly guy"? No intent Chanwu!)
So. I would very much be happy if you leave the discussions of the topics at hand to those who are indeed affected (if at all).
Harry
Where you got that from Buddy?
Chanwu,
Why in heaven do you so much care about something that does not really affect you? You are not interested in it and you don't pay. No reason to vent your anger on something that shouldn't even be touching you. Energy could be better spent with something else I honestly feel.
You want to protect people from "it", fine. Seems to be a nice thing to do. But I feel it is of absolutely no benefit to go into length into enumerating all things you do not like if you by no means have been affected yourself, do not know what is being discussed behind the scenes (you just have your landscape of "extenal picture" and quite a few things of what you raise as "problematic" are discussed and have solutions) and so many other things.
Really guys. In psychology one would very likely say you are projecting something here... (Oolong. Is this again a wicket try to make Chanwu look like the "bad" or "silly guy"? No intent Chanwu!)
So. I would very much be happy if you leave the discussions of the topics at hand to those who are indeed affected (if at all).
Harry
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