Hello!

I've been quietly following this on and off debate around David Verdesi for quite some time. I don't want to enter into any philosophical, ideological or other discussions. I also don't intend to pass any judgement, because time will sooner or later tell or at least give an indication about the true nature of D. Verdesi's work.

The thing that I do want to do is to put forward some thoughts and I'd really be interested to hear answers, containing facts. No philosophy, religious history or similar please - just plain, old facts.

Apart of seeing it at the new Verdesi-website, I noticed in many places that D. Verdesi is referred to as Dr. Verdesi and introduced as being an anthropologist.

From which university and when exactly did D. Verdesi get his doctorate?

What was the subject and title of his thesis?

What academic area inside anthropology did he do his Ph. D. in? Medical anthropology, cultural anthropology?

It's also been stated that D. Verdesi is collaborating with the Chinese government as far as his forthcoming book is concerned. His masters are mentioned to be respectable members of the community holding official posts.

With which branch of the Chinese government does David Verdesi co-operate? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Culture? State Administration for Religious Affairs?

What kind of official positions do D. Verdesi's masters hold? And with which institutions?

At the new Traditionaltao website it's also being said (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1):

"Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China."

With which major universities and hospitals in China and the US exactly did David Verdesi do his collaborative research? Where can one access the results of these researches i. e. peer-reviewed journals, etc.?

I'm really interested to get feedback from folks who might know these things.

Gamuret

Those are impressive credentials. I'd like to know too. Sounds like a fascinating guy to drink a beer with.

Darin, I think many of the people (including me) who come to hear about D. Verdesi are keen to know something more tangible about his academic credentials and research.

I hope that D. Verdesi's students reading from this forum will be willing to offer some answers.

And guys, please - no philosophy, no religious history, no fancy talk. Just plain, old facts.

G.

P. S. By the way, how old is David Verdesi actually?

Hello Gamuret,
my name is Pietro, and I use to know David when he was in Italy. We since long time lost track of each other. But I might be able to add my .02 cents.

David is slightly younger than me, unless he grew older faster than me in the last 10 years :-D.
When I was 22 I think he was 19, so now he would be about 34-35.

The second thing, is that David is, like me, Italian. In Italy, when you get your Laurea you become Dr. The law has changed just in the last years, so what I tell you might not be correct anymore. It is about 10 years that I have left Italy. In any case a Laurea (according to the old law), was more than a simple degree, and less than a master. It included a thesis (which a normal degree usually doesn't), but the thesis was not considered a publication (unless you publish it later). As such a bachelor degree would not be considered valid in Italy according to the old law. You would have needed to do some extra exam, or at the least write and submit a thesis.

But yes, I think the thesis is a public document, so I suspect that if he got a Laurea from an Italian university you might be allowed to go to the library of that university and get a copy of it, at least for some years after the candidate has got his degree. Often also supervisors keep the thesis of their students, so if you find out who his supervisor was, you might ask the favor to have it for some hours, just for long enough for you to photocopy it.

So, all this to say that David can call himself Dr. Verdesi without having done a PhD. He just needs an italian Laurea. So how are people who finish a doctorate called in Italy? Still Dr.
Is all this confusing? Yes. It took me some time to realise that I could not use the title Dr unless I had a PhD when I was outside of Italy.

I also 'kind of' remember that David was teaching at some point in a Sweedish University. Could be a course in 'Compared Religion'. Although I don't know exactly what the content of the course was.

Hope this helped clarify the confusion. (well maybe it just made it deeper )

Pietro

Hi Pietro,

thank you for clearing up (at least somewhat) the confusion regarding Italian academic degrees! I hope that also some students of David Verdesi will be able to offer answers on this and other relevant questions.

The interesting thing though is that David Verdesi has been consistently referred to as a Dr. Verdesi or with a Ph. D. behind his surname.

Just to give you some examples:

Ian Baker's website http://www.rarejourneys.com/Events.htm

A Turkish magazine containing an article of his in Turkish http://ww.astrolojigazetesi.com/cemsen.pdf

Although the old Verdesi-website cannot be accessed anymore via the Internet Archive service I was able to digg up the old introduction of his credentials somewhere saying:

"BIOGRAPHY
David Verdesi (Shen) BC. MT. PhD

Born in Rome, David has dedicated his life to the study of human potential, mainly through the Chinese tradition ranging from Shamanism through the main schools of Daoism including recent research in universities and hospitals. Dr Verdesi has spent the last three years travelling around the globe to complete his research in anthropology and comparative religion.

David has studied traditional Chinese Qi Gong, Daoism and Shamanism focusing on communication and codification of myth, mysticism and spirituality in the development of this system of knowledge. Such research lead him to study with a number of exponents of traditional Chinese culture and related systems in Asia and South America. Among his main teachers in relation to the Chinese tradition in chronological order."

Please pay close attention to the acronyms behind his name i. e. BC. MT. PhD. Would you mind explaining them in the light of academic degrees as used in the Italian educational system?

You said you knew D. Verdesi way back when you were both still in Italy. Do you perhaps know which university did he attend? Both for undergraduate as well as postgraduate studies (if he did any)?

You also mentioned David Verdesi teaching a course at a Swedish university. Do you perhaps remember the name of it?

Finally it is interesting to note that the phrase "Dr. Verdesi" was frequently used in the public introduction of the "Foundation Training"-forum, but this has now been removed over night and there is not even a trace of "Dr. Verdesi" or "David Verdesi Ph. D" (the same goes for his new website). Just to back my claims, please take a look at the following links and see for yourself:

This is the new "Foundation Training"-forum public face with Verdesi's resume (edited yesterday) - no trace of Dr. Verdesi: http://foundation73.proboards55.com/index....2483&page=1

This is the "old" version of the same site from February 17 2007 obtained via Internet Archive (hope it'll remain there in the future):

http://web.archive.org/web/20070217195845/...2483&page=1

As you can seen "Dr. Verdesi" is used in almost every paragraph.

Yet again the version from June 4 2007:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070604142352/...2483&page=1

The same thing.

You see, the problem is that people have been concentrating too much on the philosophical or spiritual side of the whole affair. These things are most difficult to verify. How can you know for sure if the stories about all these "great" masters are true? You cannot say they are true, neither that they are false, because you were not there. Therefore let people check the things that can be checked (see the questions in my original post) - perhaps with some effort, but still.

There's been too much mud-slinging offering ground for spin-doctoring from all accross the spectrum of Verdesi's adherents as well as his detractors. Let's just try to find out the good, plain ol' facts.

G.

P. S. Pietro, it's been said on the Verdesi-website (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1) that:

"Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China."

Has it perhaps come to your ears with which "major universities and hospitals" in China and the US D. Verdesi has been doing his "collaborative research"?

P. P. S. One more thing, Pietro. The most interesting part in your past was this:

"Yes. It took me some time to realise that I could not use the title Dr unless I had a PhD when I was outside of Italy."

So, if D. Verdesi would have been using the title Ph. D. while out of Italy and if he of course didn't write, submit and defend a proper doctoral thesis, then it would be inaccurate. Is this correct? I mean just using the title "Dr." based on his "Laurea" outside of Italy.

Wow Gamuret. I have a thought about this I better do not tell...

The trouble is that from country to country there are different rules as what you can carry and how to carry it. I for example am a medical doctor. In some parts of Europe you get the degree "Dr." without having to write a thesis when finishing university, in Germany you need to write a thesis. This "Dr." might be considered equivalent to the Phd in some regards but it is not as there is no Phd. as title in Europe as far as I know. P.hd. stands for Philosophiae Doctor but a German doctor of philosphy does not get the title of Phd. in this country. I am not quite sure why Pietro can not carry his title. I am pretty sure he can. When I leave my country and I actually carry the degree I carry the degree.

I have further an M.A. in social sciences (major sociology, secondary philosophy and psychology), but the M.A. (= Magister Artium) is not the same as the M.A. Americans for example are used to. I for example had no bachelor degree as a few years back this was not part at universities in Germany. They changed that now though as far as I realized.

Then there is the Diploma in Germany which is completely different to what Americans know as diploma.

so. To focus on the degree is not very helpful I feel.

Regarding possible collaborations I can tell your for sure that there is a Professor in Vienna (if I remember correctly) who is planning studies with David and his masters (or one of them). I have been in contact with him (a short email-exchange) and know that he is not a virtual construct.

No more information I can share.



Harry

Thanks Sunshine!

The introductory part was interesting, but I'm more interested in facts i.e. names of the institutions, exact dates - to sum it up hard facts that can be checked.

It's not just about the academic degrees, but also about other claims. I simply cannot understand why things have to be kept so vague. Why is it nowhere mentioned at which university did David Verdesi study? Just look up any CV of any minor public figure or academic. All of them have it written where and when they studied.

The next thing that makes me wonder is the one I already mentioned. It's been said on the Verdesi-website (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1) that:

"Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China."

Which "major universities and hospitals" in China and the US? Harvard? Yale? Tsinghua University? MIT?

What kind of "collaborative research"? Where can it be accessed? Was it published in any peer-reviewed journal?

Further it's been said that D. Verdesi is collaborating with the Chinese government. Which parts of it? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Culture? State Administration for Religious Affairs?

I'm interested in facts that can bee checked.

Then you are saying:

"Regarding possible collaborations I can tell your for sure that there is a Professor in Vienna (if I remember correctly) who is planning studies with David and his masters (or one of them). I have been in contact with him (a short email-exchange) and know that he is not a virtual construct."

What kind of a professor? A professor engaged in what kind of studies? Physics, chemistry, biology, sociology, history, etc? Is he from the University of Vienna? Which department exactly? How can he be reached?

Look, please don't misunderstand me - I'm not saying you're making it up. The problem is that I simply don't understand why one has to be so vague !

G.

P. S. Sunshine at least in one instance your words were misleading. You said:

"This 'Dr.' might be considered equivalent to the Phd in some regards but it is not as there is no Phd. as title in Europe as far as I know. P.hd. stands for Philosophiae Doctor but a German doctor of philosphy does not get the title of Phd. in this country."

Please consult the Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doctorate. Under the heading Germany, there appears this quote:

"Dr. phil. (Doctor philosophiae - most of the humanities)"

Please tell me what kind of degree is a German doctor of philosophy awarded with if not a Doctor philosophiae? Isn't philosophy a discpline belonging under the humanities? In what way is then a Philosophiae Doctor different from Doctor philosophiae? If I remember my Latin then what we see here is just the reverse word order. The content though may be different, that is true.

Take care, Sunshine!

G.

>>It's not just about the academic degrees, but also about other claims. I simply cannot understand why things have to be kept so vague. Why is it nowhere mentioned at which university did David Verdesi study? Just look up any CV of any minor public figure or academic. All of them have it written where and when they studied.<<

I don't know Gamuret. I very much understand what you ask for but once again. Everybody deals with things differently. When I meet doctors from India they hand me visiting cards you can unfold and list even the credentials of their grandfather's grandfather. I hardly ever mention my degrees. Further: It is usually only necessary to write those things if you are in an academic context. If you are not it simply is not necessary. I know that all this does not help as you are keen for an answer. I can not give it though.

>>What kind of a professor? A professor engaged in what kind of studies? Physics, chemistry, biology, sociology, history, etc? Is he from the University of Vienna? Which department exactly? How can he be reached?<<

Here it gets a little tricky. I can tell you that he is PhD, Assoc. Prof.
at the Medical University of Vienna
Department of Pathophysiology

but I hope you understand that I won't give away his name. There is no reason you can trust me, but if you are interested in my part of of academic studies and this is enough to give me some trust: search pubmed for (note: named edited out for reasons explained below) (just two articles so far written in the context with others).

>>The problem is that I simply don't understand why one has to be so vague !<<

There are many possibilities for it...


got to go to bed

If you want to know why I do not easily give out the name please PM me.



Harry



>>Please tell me what kind of degree is a German doctor of philosophy awarded with if not a Doctor philosophiae?<<

Well. It is the Dr. phil. = doctor of philosophiae, but it is not the American Phd. Getting back to Wikipedia there is stated:

>>In the English-speaking world it has become the most common denomination for a research doctorate and applies to graduates in a wide array of disciplines in the sciences and humanities<<

The German Dr. phil. does no have this position and applies only to somebody having written a thesis in philosophy.



Harry

In the Canadian university system we have a regular Bachelor of Arts (B.A.). and then we have a B.A. Honors program. In the honors program one is required to write a thesis, however there is no real difference in terms of titles afterwards. The honors program is geared more towards preparing one for their Masters and P.H.D. The Italian system sounds quite archaic, and I am not surprised that they would change it. Calling yourself a Dr. with a Bachelor's degree anywhere else in the world would not sit well at all. Perhaps David has some sort of honorary P.H.D., so I will give him the benefit of the doubt until proven otherwise.

as an outside observer with no interest in anything besides this is mildly amusing

i don't think the questions Gamuret posed are too much to ask or crossing any line


if he is advertising himself as a Dr. or legitimately advertising or stating these other things then it is natural to ask for some specifics...

now if different countries have different requirements for degrees then that would be fine but still if questions like the above are posed then it would not be hard to state facts

coming from the outside as just an observer my take on this is that the Dr. and anthropology jist is supposed to lend an air of credence to the assumption of this line/training as being the "real deal"

it is also interesting that "Dr." seems to be edited out of publicly available information


franklin

I agree Oolong! We should not jump to any conclusions or be unfair to anyone.

The thing is that it's not just the Ph.D. or Dr. or whatever. It's also other claims. I'm not saying that they are false, but I simply don't see any sense in keeping it so vague and this vagueness does make me suspicious.


Look, the problem is that high-sounding academic degrees, research history, etc. often convey or at least try to convey credibility to something one's selling and thereby attract more people.

I mean, how would you feel as a customer if somebody would write on his website offering his products or services: "Hi, I'm Joe Schmoe, been living for the last 15 years as a bum in New York. Now I've a website, please buy my stuff!"

I don't have a problem if people beef up their ads with writting down academic degrees or telling about their research. But then they should do it properly! "Major universities and hospitals in China and US". Which major unversities? Yale? Harvard? Tsinghua? Beijing Daxue? MIT?





Hi Franklin!

Yes, this is EXACTLY what I mean. YOu got my point.

What I also find strange is that the "Foundation Forum"-site was edited yesterday with all "Dr. Verdesi" replaced by David Verdesi. I checked it!

I wonder how long will the older version that I quoted be kept freely accessible at the Internet Archive service

Thanks Sunshine for providing some tangible data. I can understand about not revealing the name of the professor publicly. It's a project in the making and until it is completed it would be unfair to expect any data or results of the research.

The thing is that I'm much more interested in past accomplishments and credentials than projects which are still in the preparation and not finished. When they are finished, let us know were we can see the results - if possible a peer-reviewed journal.

I'm interested in hard facts about the claims that are being made about David Verdesi's past academic accomplishments and affiliations. And of course his claims of Chinese government supporting his work. Ditto for his masters.

G.

In order to keep these links for posterity given their important research value, I have copy-pasted their attached sites into this thread before they come down or are edited again; as I believe the content of the internet archive can be removed upon request. The pastes are in order of the links in the below quote.




FAQ
« Thread Started on Jan 12, 2007, 3:08pm »
For further information, interested parties can go to www.traditionaltao.com

Who is David Shen Verdesi?

Born in Rome, David Verdesi, or David Shen as he is widely known, has dedicated his life to the study of human potential, mainly through the Chinese tradition; ranging from Shamanism to the mainstream schools of Daoism. From an early age he became fascinated with Chinese culture and spiritual practice. Disenchanted with the limited potential of formal education, he began traveling throughout Asia in his early teens and quickly gained access to the inner most circles of the Daoist community.

Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China. Among his many teachers, he is a close personal student of Sifu (teacher) Wang Liping, the Daoist master written about in the acclaimed book Opening the Dragon Gate: the making of a modern Taoist wizard. He is also a student of Sifu John Chang, the subject of another well known book entitled The Magus of Java: teachings of an authentic Taoist immortal. Both books are very much recommended to those interested in learning more about David's work.

David also teaches traditional Chinese qigong, neigong and Daoist practice and has accomplished and realized the methods he teaches to a high degree. In addition to his other notable accomplishments, David, after being formally accepted into one of the few remaining functional lineages of the Lei Shan Dao (Thunder and Lightning Path), recently attained the so called ‘Yin Yang Gong’ or Tai Ji (the so called level four written about in The Magus of Java: teachings of an authentic Taoist immortal). The significance of this accomplishment has many important implications for the student and their spiritual development, but, in simple terms, this accomplishment gives the practitioner the ability to issue a current of qi which feels like a continuous electrical shock to anyone he or she makes physical contact with; a rare achievement for a Daoist practitioner and unheard of for a western practitioner. The greater implication for those who achieve this level is immortal life; the practitioner becomes what Daoists call a Hsien or immortal being, liberated from the cycle of death and rebirth.

For his own students, he has opened a door to a hidden world were magic and legend come to life through the practice he teaches in a practical and accessible way. Passed down from teacher to student for thousands of years, the practices David teaches comprise the very foundational methods and principles used by the some of the most successful, highly realized and enlightened sages in Daoist history, and indeed in human history; taught to him by living immortals, the lineage holder masters and living embodiment of their respective traditions.

David lives and teaches with his wife Anna in China where he is currently writing a series of books on Daoist cultivation under the guidance of Sifu Wang Liping.

What is the purpose of the forum?

The Foundation Training Forum has three main functions: first, to serve as a meeting place for David Verdesi and his current students to discuss the principles and methods of the training; secondly, to create environment were David, his teachers and students can come together and share their experiences while spreading basic principles as well as general knowledge of authentic Daoist practices to the general public for the benefit of the planet; and lastly, to provide training opportunities for those interested.

The forum is divided into two sections; one for members and one for students. Members cannot see nor have access to the student forum.

Why are the practices David Verdesi teaches kept secret?

Like most traditional Daoist teachers, David Verdesi does not teach openly to the public. There are several advantages to this style of teaching. Perhaps the biggest advantage is being able to select students who the teacher feels will benefit from this type of training and be successful. Unlike a conventional educational setting in the west such as a high school or public university, the Daoist teacher makes a deep personal commitment to the success and well being of each student. It is therefore important for the teacher to select students who are committed and responsible and therefore have the greatest chances for success. In China and Daoist circles in particular, the conduct and commitment of the student directly reflect on and impact the teacher and the school as a whole. Most of all, it’s important for the potential student be and show sincerity and seriousness and respect toward the teacher.

On another level, many of the advanced practices taught in Daoist settings carry considerable risk to the novice student. It's therefore the master’s obligation to test the student and find out if he or she is really ready, both in terms of comment and understanding as well as the health and constitution of the student. Just as NASA doesn’t send unqualified, untrained personal into space because of the risk to the person and the investment made, a master will not teach to those who are not ready; it’s just not safe nor worth the effort and investment unless the proper training and preparation is observed by both student and teacher.

Those interested in pursuing this line of training, should do so only under the direct guidance of a qualified master. Attempting to practice on your own or from a book is a sure way to seriously damage your nervous system or even cause unintentional death. Internal practices of this kind are powerful means of energetic transformation and expression. So powerful in fact that the training is capable of manifesting sudden and profound influences on a person's core vitality at both ends of the spectrum, sometimes resulting in permanently curing or killing the practitioner.

Karmic consequences can be even more devastating than the physical death of the aspiring practitioner if the powers that the practices convey are abused or misused. All these possibilities should be carefully weighed by the student as well as the teacher before committing one's self.

What does the foundation training consist of?

The foundation training is divided into two main activities; the moving form and the sitting practice. Called xing shen zhuang and shen zheng gong respectively.

Xing shen zhuang, the moving form, is a 10th century form created within the Emei Shan Pai. It has mixed intent and results in both the hou tian and xian tian category. It is of fundamental importance as a preparatory exercise to the foundation practice and should be practiced for one year, before each sitting session.

The method focuses on the spine and a special sequence of points which are unlocked and opened, connecting life lines and meridians and strengthening the internal organs.

Most of all it creates a frame and form within which to develop Zheng Qi. This allows a much faster result in both stilling the mind and the ability to sit cross legged, fully erect for long the stretches of time necessary for completion of the internal processes.

The sitting meditation is called shen zheng gong. This system belongs to the zhu ji stage, or foundation stage, and is mostly used in the Jin Dan Dao within its various pai (branch schools). It’s also used in some pai of the Lei Shan Dao. It is called sheng zheng gong in the school of Da Zhen and has different names in other schools like qiao duo tian gong or dan tian nei qi xiu lian or da jing gong.

The transmission taught by David was passed down by three highly accomplished masters: Li Siao, Wang Liping, and Da Zhen. The lines of teaching received from these three masters are different in approach; logically they are influenced by the pai which they are transmitted in, but similar in principle and in result. The practice is passed down undiluted the way was passed on to David.

The goal of the practices belonging to zhu ji can be summarized using Jin Dan Pai terminology; create the dantian and gather ‘the ingredient’ for the ‘great opera’ and then merge them to create the dan yao. In this process the fa xin and the manifestation of the clear light that Daoists call the xian tian guan xin arise.

The attainment of stillness and arising of the true self and the luminous empty nature of the uncreated unborn original mind (a manifestation of certain aspects of the shen) can even lead to ru ding, the condition that allows the process of conscious death where for long periods of time the body is actually dead and the shen undergoes the first of the seven pian hua.

The above are but zhu ji, the basic foundation needed to actually begin ‘real’ Daoist Cultivation. Of course, the achievement of these levels are not easy to realize, but within one year of dedicated, practice most people experience an-jing and some even ru ding stages, when inner silence is actually reached and the mind reverts to the ‘non-conceptual’ stage before the arising of thoughts.

According to David, the goal and result of the foundation practices is that of most meditative methods and traditions, but it’s accomplished much more efficiently and quickly:


“The experience of how the Descartes axiom of ‘Cogito ergo sum, or I think therefore I am.’ is a flawed, unskillful perception of the self and reality; for in truth, it is only when the cogito or idea-thought disappears, that the true self can arise. The experience that the ‘self’ exists only when there are no more arising thoughts is for most mediators an achievement of a lifetime. All my masters have repeatedly stated, ‘Everybody can do things and move their mind around to play with their qi. Few can keep it still and eventually dissolve it. This is gong fu, this is where Dao begins.’

Note that only when two hours of actual, unbroken non-arising thought, non-conceptual mind and complete empty stillness are achieved, can you actually talk of gong fu and consider your zhu ji to be worthy of the attention of a Xian (immortal master). Most masters don’t even look at you or simply do not reveal themselves and the true practices if those conditions are not rooted in the body-mind of the potential apprentice.

In order to reach this stage in the first year of practice, the first four months of celibacy, coupled with at least three hours of daily practice of the zhen fa is needed to reach a good level of san jing ji lei (the gathering of the first ingredient); which eventually leads to the ability to revert the direction of the current of the body-mind and collect the second ingredient.

Within 2 years or less, the ingredients are gathered and the so called xiao kan li or lesser kan & li actually takes place (this process has nothing to do with the practices that have been presented in the west by the various popular Daoist teachers and systems which have become widely available and written about). The result of this is the creation of the dan yao or zhu, the inner medicine of the body-mind; dispelling ignorance and disease and replenishing yang, the stage that requires the introduction of nei gong skills in order to open the dantien and fill it up with Yang.”

« Last Edit: Yesterday at 7:05pm by Sean D. »

FAQ
« Thread Started on Jan 12, 2007, 3:08pm »

Who is Dr. David Shen Verdesi?

Born in Rome, Dr. Verdesi has dedicated his life to the study of human potential, mainly through the Chinese tradition; ranging from Shamanism to the main schools of Daoism. From an early age he became fascinated with Chinese culture and spiritual practice. Disenchanted with the limited potential of formal education, he began traveling throughout Asia in his early teens and quickly gained access to the inner most circles of the Daoist community.

Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China. Among his many teachers, He is a close personal student of Shifu (teacher) Wang Liping, the Daoist master written about in the acclaimed book Opening the Dragon Gate: the making of a modern Taoist wizard. He is also a student of Shifu John Chang, the subject of another well known book entitled The Magus of Java: teachings of an authentic Taoist immortal. Both books are very much recommended to the members here and will vastly help in understanding the discussions and concepts presented on the forum.

Dr. Verdesi also teaches traditional Chinese Qigong and Daoist practice. For his own students, Dr. Verdesi has opened a door to a hidden world were magic and legend are as real and tangible as the air we breathe. Passed down from teacher to student for thousands of years, the practices he teaches are the very foundational methods and principles used by the some of the most successful, highly realized and enlightened sages of Taoist history, and indeed in human history; taught to him by living immortals, the lineage holder masters and living embodiment of their respective traditions.

Dr. Verdesi lives and teaches with his wife Anna in southern Asia and China where he is currently writing a series of books on Daoist cultivation at the request of Shifu Wang Liping.

What is the purpose of the forum?

The Foundation Training Forum has three main functions: first, to serve as a meeting place for Dr. Verdesi and his current students to discuss the principles and methods of the training; secondly, to create environment were communication between Dr. Verdesi, his teachers and students can come together and share their experiences while spreading basic principles as well as general knowledge of authentic Daoist practices to the general public for the benefit of the planet; and lastly, to provide training opportunities for those interested.

The forum is divided into two sections; one for members and one for students. Members cannot see nor have access to the student forum.

Why are the practices Dr. Verdesi teaches kept secret?

Like most traditional Daoist teachers. Dr. Verdesi does not teach openly to the public. There are several advantages to this style of teaching. Perhaps the biggest advantage is being able to select students who the teacher feels will benefit from this type of training and be successful. Unlike a conventional educational setting in the west such as a high school or public university, the Daoist teacher makes a deep personal commitment to the success and well being of each student. It is therefore important for the teacher to select students who are committed and responsible and therefore have the greatest chances for success. In China and Daoist circles in particular, the conduct and commitment of the student directly reflect on and impact the teacher and the school as a whole. Most of all, it�s important for the potential student be and show sincerity and seriousness and respect toward the teacher.

On another level, many of the advanced practices taught in Daoist settings carry considerable risk to the novice student. It's therefore the master�s obligation to test the student and find out if he or she is really ready, both in terms of comment and understanding as well as the health and constitution of the student. Just as NASA doesn�t send unqualified, untrained personal into space because of the risk to the person and the investment made, a master will not teach to those who are not ready; it�s just not safe nor worth the effort and investment unless the proper training and preparation is observed by both student and teacher.

Those interested in pursuing this line of training, should do so only under the direct guidance of a qualified master. Attempting to practice on your own or from a book is a sure way to seriously damage your nervous system or even cause unintentional death. Internal practices of this kind are powerful means of energetic transformation and expression. So powerful in fact that the training is capable of manifesting sudden and profound influences on a person's core vitality at both ends of the spectrum, sometimes resulting in permanently curing or killing the practitioner.

Karmic consequences can be even more devastating than the physical death of the aspiring practitioner if the powers that the practices convey are abused or misused. All these possibilities should be carefully weighed by the student as well as the teacher before committing one's self.

What does the foundation training consist of?

The foundation training is divided into two main activities; the moving form and the sitting practice. Called xing shen zhuang and shen zheng gong respectively.

Xing shen zhuang, the moving form, is a 10th century form created within the Emei Shan Pai. It has mixed intent and results in both the hou tian and xian tian category. It is of fundamental importance as a preparatory exercise to the foundation practice and should be practiced for one year, before each sitting session.

The method focuses on the spine and a special sequence of points which are unlocked and opened, connecting life lines and meridians and strengthening the internal organs.

Most of all it creates a frame and form within which to develop Zheng Qi. This allows a much faster result in both stilling the mind and the ability to sit cross legged, fully erect for long the stretches of time necessary for completion of the internal processes.

The sitting meditation is called shen zheng gong. This system belongs to the zhu ji stage, or foundation stage, and is mostly used in the Jin Dan Dao within its various pai (branch schools). It�s also used in some pai of the Lei Shan Dao. It is called sheng zheng gong in the school of Da Zhen and has different names in other schools like qiao duo tian gong or dan tian nei qi xiu lian or da jing gong.

The transmission taught by Dr. Verdesi was passed down by three highly accomplished masters: Li Siao, Wang Liping, and Da Zhen. The lines of teaching received from these three masters are different in approach; logically they are influenced by the pai which they are transmitted in, but similar in principle and in result. The practice is passed down undiluted the way was passed on to Dr. Verdesi.

The goal of the practices belonging to zhu ji can be summarized using Jin Dan Pai terminology; create the dantian and gather �the ingredient� for the �great opera� and then merge them to create the dan yao. In this process the fa xin and the manifestation of the clear light that Daoists call the xian tian guan xin arise.

The attainment of stillness and arising of the true self and the luminous empty nature of the uncreated unborn original mind (a manifestation of certain aspects of the shen) can even lead to ru ding, the condition that allows the process of conscious death where for long periods of time the body is actually dead and the shen undergoes the first of the seven pian hua.

The above are but zhu ji, the basic foundation needed to actually begin �real� Daoist Cultivation. Of course, the achievement of these levels are not easy to realize, but within one year of dedicated, practice most people experience an-jing and some even ru ding stages, when inner silence is actually reached and the mind reverts to the �non-conceptual� stage before the arising of thoughts.

According to Dr. Verdesi, the goal and result of the foundation practices is that of most meditative methods and traditions, but it�s accomplished much more efficiently and quickly:


�The experience of how the Descartes axiom of �Cogito ergo sum, or I think therefore I am.� is a flawed, unskillful perception of the self and reality; for in truth, it is only when the cogito or idea-thought disappears, that the true self can arise. The experience that the �self� exists only when there are no more arising thoughts is for most mediators an achievement of a lifetime. All my masters have repeatedly stated, �Everybody can do things and move their mind around to play with their qi. Few can keep it still and eventually dissolve it. This is gong fu, this is where Dao begins.�

Note that only when two hours of actual, unbroken non-arising thought, non-conceptual mind and complete empty stillness are achieved, can you actually talk of gong fu and consider your zhu ji to be worthy of the attention of a Xian (immortal master). Most masters don�t even look at you or simply do not reveal themselves and the true practices if those conditions are not rooted in the body-mind of the potential apprentice.

In order to reach this stage in the first year of practice, the first four months of celibacy, coupled with at least three hours of daily practice of the zhen fa is needed to reach a good level of san jing ji lei (the gathering of the first ingredient); which eventually leads to the ability to revert the direction of the current of the body-mind and collect the second ingredient.

Within 2 years or less, the ingredients are gathered and the so called xiao kan li or lesser kan & li actually takes place (this process has nothing to do with the practices that have been presented in the west by the various popular Daoist teachers and systems which have become widely available and written about). The result of this is the creation of the dan yao or zhu, the inner medicine of the body-mind; dispelling ignorance and disease and replenishing yang, the stage that requires the introduction of nei gong skills in order to open the dantien and fill it up with Yang.�

« Last Edit: Jan 12, 2007, 3:09pm by Sean D. »


FAQ
« Thread Started on Jan 12, 2007, 3:08pm »

Who is Dr. David Shen Verdesi?

Born in Rome, Dr. Verdesi has dedicated his life to the study of human potential, mainly through the Chinese tradition; ranging from Shamanism to the main schools of Daoism. From an early age he became fascinated with Chinese culture and spiritual practice. Disenchanted with the limited potential of formal education, he began traveling throughout Asia in his early teens and quickly gained access to the inner most circles of the Daoist community.

Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China. Among his many teachers, He is a close personal student of Shifu (teacher) Wang Liping, the Daoist master written about in the acclaimed book Opening the Dragon Gate: the making of a modern Taoist wizard. He is also a student of Shifu John Chang, the subject of another well known book entitled The Magus of Java: teachings of an authentic Taoist immortal. Both books are very much recommended to the members here and will vastly help in understanding the discussions and concepts presented on the forum.

Dr. Verdesi also teaches traditional Chinese Qigong and Daoist practice. For his own students, Dr. Verdesi has opened a door to a hidden world were magic and legend are as real and tangible as the air we breathe. Passed down from teacher to student for thousands of years, the practices he teaches are the very foundational methods and principles used by the some of the most successful, highly realized and enlightened sages of Taoist history, and indeed in human history; taught to him by living immortals, the lineage holder masters and living embodiment of their respective traditions.

Dr. Verdesi lives and teaches with his wife Anna in southern Asia and China where he is currently writing a series of books on Daoist cultivation at the request of Shifu Wang Liping.

What is the purpose of the forum?

The Foundation Training Forum has three main functions: first, to serve as a meeting place for Dr. Verdesi and his current students to discuss the principles and methods of the training; secondly, to create environment were Dr. Verdesi, his teachers and students can come together and share their experiences while spreading basic principles as well as general knowledge of authentic Daoist practices to the general public for the benefit of the planet; and lastly, to provide training opportunities for those interested.

The forum is divided into two sections; one for members and one for students. Members cannot see nor have access to the student forum.

Why are the practices Dr. Verdesi teaches kept secret?

Like most traditional Daoist teachers. Dr. Verdesi does not teach openly to the public. There are several advantages to this style of teaching. Perhaps the biggest advantage is being able to select students who the teacher feels will benefit from this type of training and be successful. Unlike a conventional educational setting in the west such as a high school or public university, the Daoist teacher makes a deep personal commitment to the success and well being of each student. It is therefore important for the teacher to select students who are committed and responsible and therefore have the greatest chances for success. In China and Daoist circles in particular, the conduct and commitment of the student directly reflect on and impact the teacher and the school as a whole. Most of all, it�s important for the potential student be and show sincerity and seriousness and respect toward the teacher.

On another level, many of the advanced practices taught in Daoist settings carry considerable risk to the novice student. It's therefore the master�s obligation to test the student and find out if he or she is really ready, both in terms of comment and understanding as well as the health and constitution of the student. Just as NASA doesn�t send unqualified, untrained personal into space because of the risk to the person and the investment made, a master will not teach to those who are not ready; it�s just not safe nor worth the effort and investment unless the proper training and preparation is observed by both student and teacher.

Those interested in pursuing this line of training, should do so only under the direct guidance of a qualified master. Attempting to practice on your own or from a book is a sure way to seriously damage your nervous system or even cause unintentional death. Internal practices of this kind are powerful means of energetic transformation and expression. So powerful in fact that the training is capable of manifesting sudden and profound influences on a person's core vitality at both ends of the spectrum, sometimes resulting in permanently curing or killing the practitioner.

Karmic consequences can be even more devastating than the physical death of the aspiring practitioner if the powers that the practices convey are abused or misused. All these possibilities should be carefully weighed by the student as well as the teacher before committing one's self.

What does the foundation training consist of?

The foundation training is divided into two main activities; the moving form and the sitting practice. Called xing shen zhuang and shen zheng gong respectively.

Xing shen zhuang, the moving form, is a 10th century form created within the Emei Shan Pai. It has mixed intent and results in both the hou tian and xian tian category. It is of fundamental importance as a preparatory exercise to the foundation practice and should be practiced for one year, before each sitting session.

The method focuses on the spine and a special sequence of points which are unlocked and opened, connecting life lines and meridians and strengthening the internal organs.

Most of all it creates a frame and form within which to develop Zheng Qi. This allows a much faster result in both stilling the mind and the ability to sit cross legged, fully erect for long the stretches of time necessary for completion of the internal processes.

The sitting meditation is called shen zheng gong. This system belongs to the zhu ji stage, or foundation stage, and is mostly used in the Jin Dan Dao within its various pai (branch schools). It�s also used in some pai of the Lei Shan Dao. It is called sheng zheng gong in the school of Da Zhen and has different names in other schools like qiao duo tian gong or dan tian nei qi xiu lian or da jing gong.

The transmission taught by Dr. Verdesi was passed down by three highly accomplished masters: Li Siao, Wang Liping, and Da Zhen. The lines of teaching received from these three masters are different in approach; logically they are influenced by the pai which they are transmitted in, but similar in principle and in result. The practice is passed down undiluted the way was passed on to Dr. Verdesi.

The goal of the practices belonging to zhu ji can be summarized using Jin Dan Pai terminology; create the dantian and gather �the ingredient� for the �great opera� and then merge them to create the dan yao. In this process the fa xin and the manifestation of the clear light that Daoists call the xian tian guan xin arise.

The attainment of stillness and arising of the true self and the luminous empty nature of the uncreated unborn original mind (a manifestation of certain aspects of the shen) can even lead to ru ding, the condition that allows the process of conscious death where for long periods of time the body is actually dead and the shen undergoes the first of the seven pian hua.

The above are but zhu ji, the basic foundation needed to actually begin �real� Daoist Cultivation. Of course, the achievement of these levels are not easy to realize, but within one year of dedicated, practice most people experience an-jing and some even ru ding stages, when inner silence is actually reached and the mind reverts to the �non-conceptual� stage before the arising of thoughts.

According to Dr. Verdesi, the goal and result of the foundation practices is that of most meditative methods and traditions, but it�s accomplished much more efficiently and quickly:


�The experience of how the Descartes axiom of �Cogito ergo sum, or I think therefore I am.� is a flawed, unskillful perception of the self and reality; for in truth, it is only when the cogito or idea-thought disappears, that the true self can arise. The experience that the �self� exists only when there are no more arising thoughts is for most mediators an achievement of a lifetime. All my masters have repeatedly stated, �Everybody can do things and move their mind around to play with their qi. Few can keep it still and eventually dissolve it. This is gong fu, this is where Dao begins.�

Note that only when two hours of actual, unbroken non-arising thought, non-conceptual mind and complete empty stillness are achieved, can you actually talk of gong fu and consider your zhu ji to be worthy of the attention of a Xian (immortal master). Most masters don�t even look at you or simply do not reveal themselves and the true practices if those conditions are not rooted in the body-mind of the potential apprentice.

In order to reach this stage in the first year of practice, the first four months of celibacy, coupled with at least three hours of daily practice of the zhen fa is needed to reach a good level of san jing ji lei (the gathering of the first ingredient); which eventually leads to the ability to revert the direction of the current of the body-mind and collect the second ingredient.

Within 2 years or less, the ingredients are gathered and the so called xiao kan li or lesser kan & li actually takes place (this process has nothing to do with the practices that have been presented in the west by the various popular Daoist teachers and systems which have become widely available and written about). The result of this is the creation of the dan yao or zhu, the inner medicine of the body-mind; dispelling ignorance and disease and replenishing yang, the stage that requires the introduction of nei gong skills in order to open the dantien and fill it up with Yang.�

« Last Edit: Mar 16, 2007, 5:09pm by Sean D. »

Hi Adam,

Could you please edit your post? The same story has been repeated three times even thought the quotes have different dates.

Thank you.

Thanks Adam! Good that you've done this. I'm really interested to see if the archived pages of the Foundation-forum will get blocked on Internet Archive.

I also don't understand why they replaced all the "Dr. Verdesi" on their forum by "David Verdesi" overnight.

The most basic questions as listed in my 1st post in the beginning still stands.

Hopefully somebody will come up with some answers

Durkhrod, the text of the three posts is almost the same. The only difference being the use of "Dr." before Verdesi's name in the old version and the absence of it in the recent one.

Still, I'd encourage people to take a look at the links themselves that I provided up above.

Hi Gamuret,

While I very much understand why such questions are raised (although I have no clue what your personal intent to ask them is) I want to be honest: I neither think you will actually get the information you look for, nor do I think anyone of those who know should feel in any way pressured to give it out (whatever way they look like).


note: In order for noone to unnecessarily become suspicious and possibly even go into length of creating a conspiracy theory out of why I edited out my full name in the above post (quite some of the discussions in recent times indeed have been quite bizarre):

Gamuret read my message and saw my name so there is no reason to leave it there. I am a little bit phobic to be honest: in modern times to have ones name all over the internet is not such a good idea. Think about a possible future boss of mine googling my name and finally finding themselve reading my blog about my initital experiences with the Aneros... (SHUDDER)



Harry

Harry, it's no problem, I can understand the thing regarding your name. You should not feel any need to defend yourself, because it's not about you. You tried to provide some information and I appreciate it.

My intention is to find the Truth. I've no ax to grind against Verdesi. I'm not asking about any secrets or anything, but about things that should be freely accessible.

Is it not normal for any person to want to verify claims being made? And I'm intersted in claims that can be verified. Therefore I intentionally refrained from making any judgement about D. Verdesi's school, tradition, experiences with his masters, etc. It would be unfair to judge about something in public, that I don't know about. Privately I can have my opinion. But I'm not interested in opinions, but in hard facts.

G.

Hi Gamuret,

>>My intention is to find the Truth. I've no ax to grind against Verdesi. I'm not asking about any secrets or anything, but about things that should be freely accessible.<<

I fully get your point, Gamuret. But the question to ask is: why am "I" looking for a certain "truth" and what do I do with it if "I" found "it". Say you were actually interested in studying with someone. In that case I think asking those questions can be considered valid and beneficial. Say you have a friend who intends to study with him and you have your doubts and worries and and and. Again I personally consider the search valid and beneficial. But just looking for "Truth" focussing on one person... I don't know.

The following is not about David. I have no ideas about his background with regard to the questions raised. Just in general (so please. Whoever reads it. No need to filter the following through the lense of: Harry knows more and tells us in a roundabout way that it's all just claims!):
Whereever you go you will find claims that do resemble truth only to certain extent. In many instances truth is a pretty elastic term. Do you think that all those Professors who seem to have written hundreds and hundreds of articles actually did? I was once so naive to actually believe that and wonder how they do it and how genius-like they are. Today I know it simply is not true (well. sure enough in some cases it indeed is). You asked for a peer-review of the intended upcoming study. Do you actually know it is not that easy to get even quite okay studies published in high-level magazines? I am right now in the process of finding it out.

I do not know if you are American. I am German and I always felt the American way of advertisement to be threatening. Claims are made a thousandfold.

Further: I have seen biographies and you get sick reading them: oh yes. I had this teacher and that. And then I have a degree here. And another and another... I could have such a biography as well. What people usually don't tell you is that they often just trained one weekend here and there. But they list it all and as if they were the most close students of whoever.

I very much realize that all of the above is leading away from your request. I understand it and in other cases likely would ask or at least search for the same.

>Is it not normal for any person to want to verify claims being made?<

Well. To certain extent it is. Unfortunately there are some who just have an obsession trying to completely deconstruct what they do not like and leave no stone unturned... I don't perceive you that way. In your case I just have the question in the back of my mind: do you just ask for clarities sake or with something else in mind. If you were to learn the Truth: Would you then just troll along being happy you found it? (sorry. Sounds as if I am making fun of you here. Not intended though. Just don'T know a different way to put it).

>>And I'm intersted in claims that can be verified. Therefore I intentionally refrained from making any judgement about D. Verdesi's school, tradition, experiences with his masters, etc. It would be unfair to judge about something in public, that I don't know about. Privately I can have my opinion. But I'm not interested in opinions, but in hard facts.<<

I appreciate that mindset.



Harry

Hi Harry,

thanks for your thoughts. But as mentioned in the beginning I wouldn't like the whole discussion to turn too philosophical. Let's just stick to facts.

G.

P.S. I just want my questions answered for the clarities sake and not anything else. Since David Verdesi has put his name in the public, making claims with far-reaching implications, the he should expect such questions to be asked. If he would put the names and dates on his webpage, there would be nothing to ask and I wouldn't raise the topic. I simply don't know what is there to hide.

Hi durkhrod chogori!

With absolute respect and kindness, I will leave the post as it is, as its purpose is to archive in this thread a historical presentation of David's biography as it was at three different dates on the same site. So the links to the original sites are now preserved as is the content of the sites themselves. I realize it is a large amount of apparently "dead" text, of which I too cringe, yet its research importance supersedes the impulse to edit it.

You have my sincere oppologies! I beg your tolerance and indulgence in this matter.

In kind regards,

Adam.

I don't know why Sean Denty is so silent. Usually he is the first to offer fresh information and occassionally (whenever it is needed, of course) to correct unskillful views as far as his teacher David Verdesi is concerned.

As before I wonder why is David Verdesi not referred to as "Dr. David Verdesi" or "David Verdesi, Ph. D." anymore - I mean at the Foundation-forum introductory article and his new website.

I hope Sean Denty as most qualified here will be able to offer some answers regarding my questions. I'm pretty sure, that many members of this forum wonder why he has been so silent on this matter.

Perhaps we just have to poke at Sean a little bit - like at a sleepy badger to cajole him out of his slumber. I hope my post will fullfill this function.

G.

Seems like you'd probably be better served going at poking at yourself.

Whatever you do, never, ever poke at a Polar Bear!

Sorry I didn't see this, I don't follow the TB board unless someone emails me generally these days.

Um, I honestly haven't inquired in great depth about David's research, but there is some info on the foundation forum. He published a few studies in China and did some consulting for Rochester University. Those are the ones that you might be able to look up. He is working on some research in Vienna, that one is pretty interesting; all the details are on the forum.

Some of the research is classified, like the stuff Wang Liping does researching people with special abilities for the government. He is considered the top expert in China on Qigong health and healing and does a great deal of work with cancer and aids patients. He also set up many of the standards that are now in place for qigong and TCM in general.

He teased us a little when we showed him some herbal prescriptions we had. He said we could ask any high government official, who is the best doctor in China and they would say Wang Liping. Then he told us all our herbs were basically a waste of money and we just need to Pan Zu (sit and meditate). I guess this is typical of the Northern School.

Sorry, I the research thing is not really my field or interest, next time I see David I'll ask him. David is a pretty remarkable guy, when he was like 14 or 15 he left Italy and became the apprentice of a Chinese kungfu master in Taiwan; the rest of the story is kind of one unbelievable adventure, so it probably better if I stay in my forum and keep quiet; these discussions usually just create endless gossip and bad feelings.

Peace, S

Pretty vague answers Sean. I am surprised you guys aren't more interested in this being his students and all. Can you explain why the PHD references were removed from the website? It does look odd to outsiders especially since Dr. and PHD was plastered all over the old forum.



Classified by the Chinese government, yet they let a westerner in on it?



Hmm, then when and how did he aquire his PHD if he left at 15? Have any of you guys ever met Wang Liping aside from David? There's a lot of things that don't really add up. You guys can get pissed off at people for asking these questions, but remarkable claims should have some hard proof to back them up. I think that's all Gamuret has asked for, but so far you guys have just presented fluff.

I'm not upset. It would be interesting to know more about this side of David's work, but I have never bothered to ask. The PhD reference was taken from the Qigongresearch.com site which was created by some students from Turkey. David asked that we not use it for the website; not sure why, but I would assume it's because that's no longer something he wants to emphasize in the presentation or his own work. From what I have been told he made many of his connections through the research he was involved in, maybe he wants to keep those connections to himself, just a guess; he's pretty careful to protect the privacy of the masters he works with.

Anyway, let me know if you find anything interesting and good luck on your search.

Best, S


PS- yes, David's students have met Liping and, as I said, I did as well.

Interesting. Perhaps the Universe has decided that it is time for these things to be brought up. i posted about David in another thread right before coming across this.

In any event, let me add my thoughts (you're getting them either way )



Really? i have a Shrfu (i have several lineages), who worked on remote viewing in Army Intel decades ago. He had no problem showing us credentials of this, though naturally none of us expected names or specifics of cases. He should be able to produce some documentation that he works with the Italian government on such projects. Beyond that, you seem to be only speaking about Wang, Li-Ping; who is not in question here. KNOWING Wang, Li-Ping, and introducing someone to him, is far different than being a disciple of him or being able to introduce you to him in the capacity of a "grandson."



Herbs are plants. Plants are food. Herbs are potent food. Is food a waste of money? The logic here is silly. You are not at the point where you can balance your body purely through meditation. i guarantee it. If you were then what is the longest time you have fasted and trained without hindrance to your training energetically?



i once knew a Hare Krishna devotee who would always say "Let me ask my Guru next time i see him" whenever he was backed into a corner. It mildly amused me then as much as it does now.



Isn't your forum a subscription based forum? Doesn't this mean that people have to pay hundreds of dollars if they want to hear about David's Grand AdventureTM?

Come on now.

Anyway, studying from a "Chinese Kungfu master in Taiwan" is utterly UNremarkable. Seriously. What master? How long did he study? Did he go through Bai Shi or receive a Dao name? MOST Kungfu masters fled to Taiwan. i don't see what is remarkable about studying Kungfu in Taiwan when you are a teenager.

Hern,

I see. Again, I haven't read through all of what you wrote, but would just like to say I don't think I can add much more to the discussion. If people aren't impressed with David or my knowledge about David, then that is really their issue to work out.

I will say that David is Tu Di disciple of Wang Liping. They have lived together, and David studies with him year round in China. I and others among David's students have received closed door training with Liping through David. So, for those who know something, there's not much more to say really.

The website is a work in progress, so maybe those who created it will add more info in future.

Cheers, S

Hi Sean,

thank you for adding your thoughts to my thread. Unfortunately, as you can yourself see, my questions were not answered. It seems that you know very little about your teacher David Verdesi or at least about his academic background and research. I'm so much interested in it, because many claims with far-reaching implications were made by David Verdesi and his students and his credentials were repeatedly quoted in order to give his work the appearance of academic and scholarly excellence.

Sean, do you want to say that you don't even know at which university your own teacher studied?

Just for the sake of convenience I'm again quoting questions from my first post and I'd really be very grateful if you could ask D. Verdesi next time when you get in touch with him:

"From which university and when exactly did D. Verdesi get his doctorate?

What was the subject and title of his thesis?

What academic area inside anthropology did he do his Ph. D. in? Medical anthropology, cultural anthropology?

It's also been stated that D. Verdesi is collaborating with the Chinese government as far as his forthcoming book is concerned. His masters are mentioned to be respectable members of the community holding official posts.

With which branch of the Chinese government does David Verdesi co-operate? The Ministry of Science and Technology, the Ministry of Culture? State Administration for Religious Affairs?

What kind of official positions do D. Verdesi's masters hold? And with which institutions?

At the new Traditionaltao website it's also being said (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1):

"Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China."

With which major universities and hospitals in China and the US exactly did David Verdesi do his collaborative research? Where can one access the results of these researches i. e. peer-reviewed journals, etc.?"

To the above questions I'd like to add the following:

At which university or universities did David Verdesi engage in his undergraduate and postgraduate studies respectively? In which period of time?

In your first post you said:

"Um, I honestly haven't inquired in great depth about David's research, but there is some info on the foundation forum. He published a few studies in China and did some consulting for Rochester University. Those are the ones that you might be able to look up. He is working on some research in Vienna, that one is pretty interesting; all the details are on the forum."

You see, Sean, again this vagueness i.e. "a few studies, some consulting, some research, etc." Let us leave the on-going project in Vienna, because sunshine already addressed it. Let me turn my attention to the "few studies in China" and "some consulting for Rochester University".

What kind of studies? Where in China were they published? Where can they be accessed? In which language were they written i.e. Chinese, English, Italian, etc.? By the was does David Verdesi even speak Chinese - here I mean of course fluent Chinese, not just a few phrases? His Chinese surely must be excellent if he has been staying in Chinese-speaking areas for extended periods of time.

What kind of consulting did David Verdesi do for the Rochester University? In what capacity? Please tell us more. I'd encourage everyone in the US who is reading this post to contact the Rochester University and ask them questions.

There is another question I'd have. You just addressed the reasons why the phrasing "Dr. David Verdesi" and "David Verdesi, Ph. D." doesn't appear at the new website. But can you please explain to me why did the same "Dr. David Verdesi" and "David Verdesi, Ph. D." appear in great number at your "Foundation Training"-forum introductory article just a few days ago and then you suddenly edited the text on February 2nd 2008. At your site

http://foundation73.proboards55.com/index....2483&page=1

it is said at the end of the introductory article: « Last Edit: Feb 2, 2008, 7:05pm by Sean D. »

Interestingly I made my first post with the questions also on the same date i. e. Feb. 2nd 2008. Is this a sheer coincidence?

As said already in my previous post, at the "old" version of your "Foundation Training"-forum site from February 17 2007 obtained via Internet Archive (hope it'll remain there in the future) the phrasing "Dr. David Verdesi" appears almost in every paragraph:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070217195845/...2483&page=1

Yet again the version from June 4 2007:

http://web.archive.org/web/20070604142352/...2483&page=1

The same thing.

Finally I'd like to show you how a truly renowned scholar's CV looks like. Did you ever hear of Michael Saso, one of the pioneers in the field of Daoist studies? He is also an ordained Zheng Yi priest and did 10 years of field work in the Taiwanese Daoist community. He speaks fluently Chinese, Japanese and also has mastered classical Chinese. Take a look at his biography at Wikipedia - http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Michael_Saso . By the way Michael Saso like David Verdesi is an anthropologist. Yet Michael Saso doesn't seem to have any problems with letting people know where he obtained his Ph. D.

Interesting isn't it?

Take care, Sean.

Gamuret

When appearing in public and thereby becoming a public figure making claims of prominence and excellence David Verdesi must reckon with the fact that he will be asked such questions.

I truly don't understand why there is so much to hide. I'm not asking any personal questions about his private life, I'm not seeking any secrets of his school or masters, I'm in fact not passing any kind of judgement about him as a person, his tradition, his masters, etc.

G.

Ok, so I suppose I need to add something. And I better do it asap, before having to read the whole divine commedy of all the posts pro and against David.

[quote name='Gamuret' date='Feb 3 2008, 10:05 PM' post='51876']
Hi Pietro,

thank you for clearing up (at least somewhat) the confusion regarding Italian academic degrees! I hope that also some students of David Verdesi will be able to offer answers on this and other relevant questions.

The interesting thing though is that David Verdesi has been consistently referred to as a Dr. Verdesi or with a Ph. D. behind his surname.

Just to give you some examples:

Ian Baker's website http://www.rarejourneys.com/Events.htm

A Turkish magazine containing an article of his in Turkish http://ww.astrolojigazetesi.com/cemsen.pdf

Although the old Verdesi-website cannot be accessed anymore via the Internet Archive service I was able to digg up the old introduction of his credentials somewhere saying:

"BIOGRAPHY
David Verdesi (Shen) BC. MT. PhD

Born in Rome, David has dedicated his life to the study of human potential, mainly through the Chinese tradition ranging from Shamanism through the main schools of Daoism including recent research in universities and hospitals. Dr Verdesi has spent the last three years travelling around the globe to complete his research in anthropology and comparative religion.

David has studied traditional Chinese Qi Gong, Daoism and Shamanism focusing on communication and codification of myth, mysticism and spirituality in the development of this system of knowledge. Such research lead him to study with a number of exponents of traditional Chinese culture and related systems in Asia and South America. Among his main teachers in relation to the Chinese tradition in chronological order."

Please pay close attention to the acronyms behind his name i. e. BC. MT. PhD. Would you mind explaining them in the light of academic degrees as used in the Italian educational system?
[/quote]


I have't got a clue.

[quote name='Gamuret' date='Feb 3 2008, 10:05 PM' post='51876']
You said you knew D. Verdesi way back when you were both still in Italy. Do you perhaps know which university did he attend? Both for undergraduate as well as postgraduate studies (if he did any)?

[/quote]


He was't at the university yet. I think at the time he didn't even had a high school diploma. But I heard from a common friend that he ended high school without telling anyone about those studies. I have no problems believing this story. I don't generally ask my friends a formal CV.

[quote name='Gamuret' date='Feb 3 2008, 10:05 PM' post='51876']
You also mentioned David Verdesi teaching a course at a Swedish university. Do you perhaps remember the name of it?
[/quote]

I was never told, nor I cared enough to ask.

[quote name='Gamuret' date='Feb 3 2008, 10:05 PM' post='51876']
Finally it is interesting to note that the phrase "Dr. Verdesi" was frequently used in the public introduction of the "Foundation Training"-forum, but this has now been removed over night and there is not even a trace of "Dr. Verdesi" or "David Verdesi Ph. D" (the same goes for his new website). Just to back my claims, please take a look at the following links and see for yourself:
...

[/quote]


It looks like someone made an error, and when you started investigating they wanted to correct it. I would exclude David from all this since my understanding is that David is the ultimate non geek type. He has students who are more than willing to set up a forum for him, and take care of the day to day situation.

I guess that... oh no, you said just facts.

[quote name='Gamuret' date='Feb 3 2008, 10:05 PM' post='51876']
You see, the problem is that people have been concentrating too much on the philosophical or spiritual side of the whole affair. These things are most difficult to verify. How can you know for sure if the stories about all these "great" masters are true? You cannot say they are true, neither that they are false, because you were not there. Therefore let people check the things that can be checked (see the questions in my original post) - perhaps with some effort, but still.

There's been too much mud-slinging offering ground for spin-doctoring from all accross the spectrum of Verdesi's adherents as well as his detractors. Let's just try to find out the good, plain ol' facts.
[/quote]


I have no problems with you trying to understand the facts. I told you about a common friend? Well, he was also in Castaneda stuff, and he evntually found who was the supervisor of Carlos, when he did his thesis. He then went to read the books of Carlos' supervisor, and he found there all (or most) of the ideas that were being presented as Don Juan personal teachings. They were just written in a very hard to digest form.

[quote name='Gamuret' date='Feb 3 2008, 10:05 PM' post='51876']
G.

P. S. Pietro, it's been said on the Verdesi-website (http://www.traditionaltao.com/index.html/html/site-section/ID/1) that:

"Over fifteen years of personal research as an anthropologist in China and Asia, including collaborative research with major universities and hospitals in China and the United States, have culminated in unprecedented access to some of the most sought after teachers and Daoist schools in China."

Has it perhaps come to your ears with which "major universities and hospitals" in China and the US D. Verdesi has been doing his "collaborative research"?
[/quote]


I haven't got a clue. But a few things I can tell:
I exlude categorically that they had anything to do with the italian government. The italian government have hardly the money to pay for the toilet paper in its universities, it surely isn't sponsoring secret studies on chi.

Gamuret also asked me some question through PM. I told him that I was not prepared to answer personal questions on David, especially since he insisited on keeping his anonymity. But a few of the least personal I can try to answer.

[quote]
You've are Italian and have been in personal contact with D. Verdesi for a period of time. What's your opinion about him? What are your experiences with him? What kind of person is he? [...]
[/quote]


I don't know enough of David to answer all those questions, but a few things I can say. When I first met him he was in a martial art school. I was there as well, but we were in different years, and we both left pretty soon. I don't know of any Taiwan master, but soon he was under the protection of Chia, learning more than the rest of us, and being sent by Chia to meet other teachers. He would then come back and report. This is how Chia got some of his practices. David always put his practice before everything else, up to the point to be willing to jump in the dark, if he felt it was the right thing to do. An example? he would order a plane ticket for a place he had the feeling he had to see, even though he did not had the money at the time to buy the ticket. All because he felt that the money would just arrive at the right time. And inevitably the money would arrive. He also fucked up things royally when a friend asked him to organise her workshop, and he esentially didn't do anything. In a sense it was inevitable, he never had to do anything to organise his workshops. Somehow they got organised for him. Either by the universe, or by one of his students. But he never had to sweat to get students. When he tried to apply the same procedure on his friends it didn't work. He then retracted behind a: "it means that it didn't had to happen". His friend wasn't happy.

[quote]
Is Verdesi truly genuine and all the high prices and hidden costs for his seminars just some kind of tests and in perfect accordance with the Chinese way - you know, the whole "if you don't have metal (i.e. money) you can't make the elixir"-stuff?

Or is he simply a smoth-talking shyster trying to get money out of people with some "Sweating to the Oldies"-Qi Gong ripped off from old David Carradine videos?
[quote]


Now you ask me if David school is a good one? I suspect so. One things I think is that David believes his own stories? It is not up to me to jude if they are true or not. Stories of immortals, teachers, high level... fuck do I know? But I don't think he is lying, knowing that he is lying. He might be wrong but I believe he is wrong in good faith.

As for the money, he is free to put the price he wants. You are free not to go. This is a free market society, remember?

[quote]
Since you're an Italian tell me, where and how could one start checking Verdesi's academic credentials? Where to start?
[/quote]


I haven't got a clue, again. IF he did it in Rome, you would have to check with the Universities in ROme. There are 3 of them (La Sapienze, Tor Vergata, Roma 3). You would need to speak italian (no I am not available to do it) and ask at the antropology department. Some departments put on internet some of the people who got their Laurea. I tried to make a search for
Davide Verdesi antropologia
but nothing of interest came out. As I said Italy is much behind in how much information is on the internet, so this hardly means anything.

EDITED: Adding the colors, since the quote do not appear

Thanks for the post, Pietro! It's truly awesome. A well balanced and good written testimony of a person who personally knew David Verdesi.

Thank you also for addressing my questions from my private PM to you!

You wrote:

"I haven't got a clue. IF he did it in Rome, you would have to check with the Universities in ROme. There are 3 of them (La Sapienze, Tor Vergata, Roma 3). You would need to speak italian (no I am not available to do it) and ask at the antropology department. Some departments put on internet some of the people who got their Laurea."

Don't worry Pietro. I'm able and and in fact always do my own research.

G.

Hi Harry,
you are right about carrying the degree. Regards the title I am not sure. And in any case I see the title as a shortcut to let people know what studies you have done. Since people in different countries would assume something wrong, it does not work that well. So yes, legally I might be entitled to use them. But ethically I don't feel like. And being in Academia the titles are quite important (beside I now do have a PHD ).

Some years ago I was advertising some chi nei chang practise, and I signed Dr. (I had just got my Laurea). My father looked at the ads and commented: is nearly a scam. Meaning that people would expect me to be a medical doctor, not to have a basic degree in maths. Totally unrelated to the massage practice.

Pietro, I hope you'll continue posting here and elsewhere. I like the no-nonsense, cut-the-chase style you have.

And you try to offer a balanced view - this is the most important.

turns out david verdesi isn't as high and mighty after all, bummer

I agree Pietro. Titles can be misleading. In Germany the differences are made by prefixes like:
Dr. med.
Dr. phil.

Dr. whatever....

if I remember correctly in Germany the Dr. actually is part of the name, so usually one would have to say: Dr. Jenson, Dr. whoever...

Nobody would address anybody by using the other prefix.

So. Dr. is Dr. and people often get confused when the have doctors without the Dr. in front of their name. The tile is just the degree showing they did some kind of study work ad wrote a thesis. It does not tell if you are an MD or not.



Harry

>>Sean, do you want to say that you don't even know at which university your own teacher studied?<<

To answer from my position. I don't know and I am not interested. And Sean and I for the time being share the same teacher.



Harry

>>turns out david verdesi isn't as high and mighty after all, bummer<<

If you actually ever thought/believed that it tells more about you than about the person themselves

Harry

Well there are a few problems, for one your forums, where you link for more information requires a $250 membership fee. So if someone wants to see any evidence of what you are saying they have to pay first. This is preposterous, to say the least.

Also, what do you mean by "Tu Di?" Di as in "God" or "Lord?" What do you mean (honestly i don't know).

Also, so David lives in China? You said he studies with him "year round." This means "all year." Is this correct?

How much have you trained with Wang and why do you refer to levels from the Mo Pa'i tradition and not Wang, Li-Ping's lineage's ranking system instead?

Lastly (for now), what documentation is there of this? Any pictures of you and David in Wang's home (i.e. in a less than public setting)? Any letter or accreditation of any sort from Wang? Asking for credentials is not asking anything more than what is expected in all circles.

As well, i read here that "Doctor" Verdessi has a degree more than a Bachelors but less than a Masters. You should not call him a Doctor to non-Italian audiences. The world of academia would not consider him a doctor and you should not refer to him by a title understood the world around as meaning something different than what it means in his context.

Hi again Hern Heng. I will soon stop replying to these discussions ones again as they are pretty time consuming and tiring, especially because most of it has been actually discussed to death. Please do your research first:

>>Well there are a few problems, for one your forums, where you link for more information requires a $250 membership fee. So if someone wants to see any evidence of what you are saying they have to pay first. This is preposterous, to say the least. <<

For one: this happened somewhere in the last 2 weeks or so. The forum has been freely accessaible for quite some time. So just because you seem to have become aware of it just right now is simply bad luck (or more esoteric: Heaven's will possibly?)

>>How much have you trained with Wang and why do you refer to levels from the Mo Pa'i tradition and not Wang, Li-Ping's lineage's ranking system instead? <<

Simply because David has been studying with a different master he is still studying with. It is important to make distinctions as they are not the same!

>>Lastly (for now), what documentation is there of this? Any pictures of you and David in Wang's home (i.e. in a less than public setting)? Any letter or accreditation of any sort from Wang? Asking for credentials is not asking anything more than what is expected in all circles. <<

I leave that to Sean... Still: Do you know Master Liping in order to know from a picture if he were it or not?

>>As well, i read here that "Doctor" Verdessi has a degree more than a Bachelors but less than a Masters. You should not call him a Doctor to non-Italian audiences. The world of academia would not consider him a doctor and you should not refer to him by a title understood the world around as meaning something different than what it means in his context.<<

Have you read what I stated about titles? If he has a title he has a title. Simple as that. Otherwise I will start to inquire that no American should be allowed to write Phd. in front (or behind) her/his name when coming to Germany, as most of us have no clue what it is.

The sad bit is. Writing all this I realize that I lose my inner balance right now writing this. thankx for your presence pointing out this weakness in me. Got to stop. Practice to do.



Harry

Yes, Heaven's will indeed! Seeing that you charge $250 to access a forum with information that is highly critical of others (e.g. Chia, Winn), and absolutely rejects ANY critical look at the David sparked me to write. It is no doubt that T'ien itself has willed this to come to pass as it has.



Right. That's my point. Why all the hijacking of Mo Pa'i terminology for a non-Mo Pa'i lineage? i still don't get it but it seems we agree that a distinction should be made (and David should stop promoting himself via Sean, through the context of a system he is not a part of).



i refuse to answer a question that was posed as a question answer to my question. In other words, answer my question and i will answer your's. In any event, i will tell you enough that if you show me a picture of Wang, Li-Ping with Sean and David in his house then i will be able to verify whether or not it is him. The ball is in YOUR court; so do not ask me to return it when you have not served it back yet



You having no idea what PhD means in Germany is pure fantasy. Within the realm of German academia "PhD" is a recognized title. If "Shrfu" means "advanced beginner" in Russian Martial Arts (a clearly fictitious example), but means "Master Father" in the rest of the world, then this is something that Russian Martial Artists would need to point out. Calling a man who has not completed Master Level education a "Doctor" is a hustle.



You are most welcome dear friend.

It seems that the $250 forum fee is turning some people away. Have you ever considered that maybe this is the point? I don't know if it is but it would sure make sense.
If David was bent on profit that would not be a smart move, would it?

Some people get off on ripping a public stranger. Look at TMZ. Look at the tabloids. And even TMZ does a better job at fact checking than many of you who are attacking David, Max, probably others. These kind of uninformed personal attacks against a person, whether it be David, Max or anyone else, are just a product of fear. Just another way of chasing your tail. How do I know? I've done it too! And I've learned my lesson.

I have some suggestions: don't be afraid. There is nothing to defend guys. Get over your sense of entitlement. Go do something you love instead of wasting your time showing people how good you are at attacking without information or provocation. Life is too short for this shit.

I am out Hern Heng. Not because I am not willing to have a good and straight discussion. Read through all the messages written about David and all else and I hope you will realize. But I realize as well that it leads absolutely nowhere to continue. One thing I can tell you for sure. I haven't been in Wang Liping's home and have therefore no photo to show. One more thing is sure: Had I been and were there a photo in my hands I very likely would still refrain from showing. Sean. If you like to continue. I have lost the sense for it.

Take care.



Harry

Absolutely silly. Why would you refrain from showing a picture of people with their teachers. David is so elusive that you cannot even show a picture of him with the man he is claiming is his Shrfu? Ridiculous and unparalleled in ridiculousness. Kosta shows him with Chang. Everyone shows himself with his Shrfu. i leave you - as well - with your ridiculous grand finale; underlining the preposterousness of your claims about David.

I'm good.