Hello there,

Recently, i was forwarded a link at the following website:

http://www.coach-silver.com/Qi_gong.htm (and have since seen the same material elsewhere).

This letter raised a lot of questions (and red flags), but for now, i would like to simply call your attention to the "i guesses" of Sean's letter (these being trademarked "red flags of bullshit").

If the author comes across this (as i expect him to), please bear with my skepticism and mild ball-breaking, and try to keep a good sense of humor; realizing that different personality types might not see your explanation as so easy to embrace. This is not simply because of the nature of the things being discussed, but because you have not presented any verifiable achievements of you or your teacher (just claims). This would not be so bad if you were just posting on Internet forums, but you are asking for real peoples' real money. For this, i have to throw these things open to the light.

Without further ado...



With all due respect, "i guess" you didn't really look into the matter the deeply if you're only "guessing" that Choa Kok Sui was a pranic healer. i googled his name and found this out. No need to "guess" unless you want to act like you never really knew the guy and actually did (or your Shrfu did). In any event, and whatever the case, it is clear that you know good and well about what you claim to be guesswork on your part here.



You guess? It would seem that you are the gatekeeper to David? Why guess? Just ask the man. Your Shrfu told you it is okay for you to write about him and "guess" so much as to what he thinks or doesn't think? This is strange enough, in and of itself.

How ironic that Andreas still studies with John Chang and neither of the two is going to come out and argue with you on message forums and websites. Sean knows this and exploits their silence. Why would Andreas ask David (someone that was never mentioned as a student of Chang in either "Magus of Java" or "Nei Kung" - while Andreas and Kosta were), to teach when there were so many obviously more impressive to Kosta whereas David is never mentioned? What evidence is there AT ALL that David has ever even spoken to Chang, let alone been his student; let alone passed level 4!?! As well, if he has spoken to Shrfu Chang, this does not mean that he was accepted as his student, nor that he was tested through level 3 of the Mo Pa'i tradition.



Amazing! Did you hear there's a new Indiana Jones movie coming out?

Anyway, many problems here:

If David is at level 4 then how can he gauge who is at level 20?
Why do you guess what the master said? This is presumptuous and a lot of guessing.
Why do you guess the answer was no? All of this guessing leads me to believe that you don't really know much about these stories, but have elaborated (in your mind, and now on the internet), on bits and pieces of things that you've heard.



Do you KNOW this is part of the tradition or is there some reason you are "guessing" and can't find out? Why all the guessing? Aren't you in contact with David to ask him? Isn't he able to answer this question? How good of contact is he really in with these Shrfu if he does not even know to tell you!?!



i call bullshit. You are once again "guessing" that he was inflexible before. This means that you don't know whether or not he was pretty close to doing the splits before having ingested this formula. Too much guesswork.



Many problems again:

Nei Kung is not unique to the Mo Pa'i tradition. Everyone does this throughout Daoism, Daoist Martial Arts and even outside of that context. Nei Kung is not some elusive thing. The level that Sean is claiming his Shrfu is at is not at all as rare as he is making it out. Kosta notes in "The Magus of Java" that he met a Tae Kwon Do teacher who had reached this level; a fact which Shrfu Chang confirmed from the description. Would you pay to meet a Tae Kwon Do teacher? Why not? Just because of this label of "Daoist?" Or is it because of the tales that Sean has posted here with so many "i guesses?"

Again, he says here that David is Level 3. This is consistent (at least), with the fact that John Chang said that he has NEVER taught anyone (let alone the unmentioned David), past this level. He said that a Westerner WILL achieve it (and David alleges that Chang's Shrfu referred to him as a "Western Barbarian" who "knew too much" already), and this was with no mention of David (who supposedly would have been training with him at the time). How could David know he would achieve this level? If he actually said this to you then he is likely delusional. All one could say is that they will do it or die in the process. Chang said many students die in this process and Kosta apparently got cancer in the process of this fusion. Why on Earth are you so quick to believe that a man will do this in a time period that HE dictated? Gee, i can't imagine why people would consider you folks a cult.

Moreover, TONS of people levitate. i have more than one Kung fu brother and uncle who can levitate. i have a friend who sang for a hardcore band who went to visit family in Thailand and was shown many Buddhist monks levitating in meditation as if it was no big deal (and it IS no big deal, make no mistake about it). Even his family members couldn't understand why he was so impressed. This was everyday ritualism to them. They see it all the time. So wow, David levitated? What does this mean in terms of what he is teaching and where his head's at? After many years and tens of thousands of dollars you too might be able to levitate barely off the ground? So what? Aleister Crowley could focus on a wine glass for half an hour and eventually it would crack. Neat. Practically speaking i could kill the man before he could ever lock on to the glass. What is the point? Unless a man is able to focus on the glass and crack it immediately, i don't see what the big deal is practically speaking. Why fall all over each other to learn from him when he is just beginning like so many other people (and does not apparently have anything unusual to offer that you cannot find in most old school Kung Fu lineages)?

It seems that there were a lot of people who got into Chia and were really inactive physically speaking. i don't see a lot of Kung Fu Shrfu getting pissed at Chia; and most of the people i know who like his books are teachers. This is likely because the people who got chronic Kidney Yang Deficiency (as Sean says he did), were relatively inactive; wanting to sit and think themselves to enlightenment or super powers and not do and unthink their way there.

More later.

Peace.

you shot yourself in the foot here. whoever can levitate is worth paying all your money to study under.

to said fact you stand a witness heh?



there is a guy on this forum who can dodge bullets and another who can give cancers, you guys should really get together one of this days .

Hi Hern,

You seem upset. I didn't read much of your letter to be honest, but, as you may have noticed, I've kind of done the forum thing and have chosen to essentially move on. I'm not infallible, so your welcome to whatever conclusions you choose to come to. From the tone of your letter it sounds like you're not all that impressed with what I wrote. That suits me just fine.

Cheers, S

Well Kunlun level 1 says you can attain levitation among many other things very simple seated meditation for only 24 dollars not 10,000!

Sorry to stir the pot, but that is the claims and thought to add it if you are interested in Levitation!

Good form Sean; yield when attacked. It is fine, yielding works as long as you are faster on your feet

I never understand why people insist they can do taoist magic like floating and what not. We never seem to be short of them here on the forum.

If they can, come out and prove it to science. You will change the world overnight. No bullshit like it creates yang energy in my pinkie finger which will result in global war. Simply go to your nearest university science department, introduce yourself and say 'look what neat shit I can do'.

They will get research grants for life and you will be rich beyond your wildest dreams.

However, if you are talking bollox for the fun of it or even worse, to blindly follow your teacher who is making a shit load of money.

Then keep out of the forum, bullshido.net needs you more than we do.

So I say to all the Jedi out there. Step up and be counted or go somewhere else

Where does Max say Kunlun 1 will make you levitate? I don't remember reading that.

Also, it's $15.

Abso-fucking-lutely. To some extent this IS being done. Harvard is researching Buddhist monks heating themselves up enough in meditation to dry wet towels. Impressive stuff, but still within the realms of esoteric expectations. John Chang has my respect because he stepped up to the plate and effortlessly hit a home run every time at bat. Beyond that, some guy traveling a lot and charging a lot of money because he claims to have MET Chang and Wang, and other folks, just irritates me.

If Sean D. or David V. want anyone's money then they have an ethical obligation to provide some evidence that they can do SOMETHING out of the ordinary that they are implying they will be able to impart to the seeker. Otherwise they should be regarded as charlatans and hucksters.

At the moment I am just in the mood to answer:
David by now can but some will still accuse him for charlatanism anyway: Teslacoils. Right guys?
Sean is a second year student (correct me Sean if I am wrong). What do you expect. One thing is sure. He has changed in the process...

on a sidenote: if people want to give him money there is no ethical obligation to provide anything at all.

just in the mood to answer



Harry

If people are being told to give money based on a promise (implied or stated outrightly), that they will develop powers that David himself does not even have (level 4 of the Mo Pa'i tradition), then this is unethical. Remember, "De" means "Virtue" not just "Power." A man without Virtue is a man without true Power. His power will never develop to the state of what the old masters called "hao ran zhi qi."

You may see no ethical obligation here, and i may. This is natural. You may be in a deficit of virtue and may be naturally provoked to restore that balance by posing the other side of the story that Sean and David have been leaving out. This is natural and you should recognize that if you are in the right then you have nothing to fear from me (or anyone else), posing these questions.

If I fear anything in all of this then punishment from Heaven, not from a human being and sure not by criticism based on speculation. David does not have achieved Level 4 in the Mo Pai tradition you are likely referring to. According to recent happenings witnessed by students he has reached a somehow equivalent but different in specific ways level in the tradition he is learning now from his current master(s) in China.

Regarding the topic of virtue mentioned above and in the way it was mentioned above, I recently stated: one should first clean ones own yard before...



Harry

My friend, if my yard were not clean then i would not bother cleaning yours. Moreover, i am cleaning yours only to show how dirty it is to those who are paying to hang out in this supposedly "clean" yard

Fear Heaven. Fear Karma. This is fine. But if you believe in either or both then you will know that both react through human agents at times (through the course of natural events). Heaven does not act by divine hands renting it apart and intervening, it acts through natural means. There is no one "up there" with "nothing to do" as Zhuangzi so humorously put it. You ARE receiving the natural repercussions of what EXISTENCE has dictated is an imbalance.

Cameron,

It has it on the page for level 1 on his site i read it and thats why ive been posting it, for some reason i cant bring it up on my computer maybe the site is down or is been worked on but it definetly says Kunlun level 1 you can attain levitation among alot of other things!!! Check it out yourself!!!!!!!!



There ya go, LOL!!



When the Level I activates, practitioner will experience tremendous heat and sweating. Uncontrollable trembling, laughing and crying may follow this. This is due to the body is being physically and mentally purified through the process. Other manifestations include, speaking in other tongues, light manifestation around the body, levitation, and inner, or third eye opening.

Fine Hern Heng. Good to learn what you believe about yourself. The way you approach the topic sure does not leave that impression.



Harry

Dear friend, PLEASE forgive me if my posts have given the impression that i charge people for things out of the ordinary (information about myself, my skills, or information about seminar beyond the fees of the seminar itself and the traveling expenses).

If i have given you this impression - that i am in any way interested in your money - then i have done so in a way that i am completely unaware of (and would be happy to have you point out). i have criticized someone you like. This does not denote lack of virtue except in the minds of cult members.

Cameron

When the Level I activates, practitioner will experience tremendous heat and sweating. Uncontrollable trembling, laughing and crying may follow this. This is due to the body is being physically and mentally purified through the process. Other manifestations include, speaking in other tongues, light manifestation around the body, levitation,[b] and inner, or third eye opening.

We never seem to be short of people believing science is the answer to all confusion either. As if science is the WAY and the only method to show us TRUTH.

Do you really you believe a scientist being able to proove levitation is going to change the world...wake up man. How do you think the scientist community is going to react? It dosent matter how much proof they get, they'll react the same way. And it dosent matter how well the research is done either. It will be analyzed, overanalyzed, misinterpreted, twisted, eaten and puked up again and then twisted some more. It would take us no further than we are now.

Dont put too much weight on science people. It is nothing more than a paradigm.

Forgot to add if its true then 15 dollars is by far the better choice wouldnt you think?

I wonder if anyone has seen max levitate or his students that have reached level 2,3 cause level 1 says you can levitate? Have you attained it yet?

Yep. Hern Heng. It is okay. By now I understand I am cult member. Seriously though: I have absolutely no trouble with you ciriticizing someone I like. Maybe with the approach you are utilizing, but maybe not even that. It just gets tiring because, as stated: All this criticism has been repeated over and over again... I always try to the best of my abilities to reply in an honest way and balance some sometimes pretty vague views, often criticism based on lack of information and so on. What you have presented so far is in no way different. Sure enough sensed though my filters... don't worry. You have enough people on your side. They will state that all I try is just a try to discredit you, chastetize you and whatever. I have learned to live with that although it is far from truth.

My above statement referred to the statement of your "clean yard". Purely based on personal perception your approach does not speak for that.

On a sarcastic side note (I am sorry cat that I lose my balance):
Someone some time ago stated that he feels that even the negative posts about David are just there to keep him in the mind of all and pop up ones in a while by students of his.
SeanD. Do you actually know if there is anything to it?

I am tired.



Harry

I think if someone goes on Randys 1 million challenge and or to a science lab or on the news it will have a huge effect on the world cause it shows how far one can become with the power of the mind and energy. Possibly military might see something in it and be worth alot of cash.

It would change the scientific community at the very least. Think of how much "science" has changed in the past 150 years alone! This has ONLY come about through people proving the skeptics of the "Old Guard" wrong

Yes youre right of course, but have you seeen how science has changed on the way? Its a paradigm... do you see what I mean? Just because science dosent proove it dosent mean it dosent exist. Just because scientists have disprooved something dosent mean anything.

Science is still only working within its own paradigm. Anything outside of that paradigm wont be accepted by the scientist community. So if your reality-testing is based on what science has achieved, your reality will be limited to that paradigm.

Perhaps it is repeated because no proof is given, only more very wild claims.



i have no side my friend. There is only reality and fantasy. Since fantasy is not real, it cannot be a "side" (since it does not exist). Reality is existence. If something is not real then it is not a side to take. Again, i have no sides.



The dirtiness of your, Sean's and David's collective yard is based on unsubstantiated claims (and worse, unsubstantiated claims asking for money to substantiate them). Since i have not done this then you are, in effect, saying that criticizing you for doing this (or Sean or David), is tantamount to having done it myself. This is illogical in the extreme.



Common thing said by cult leaders. i do not doubt that David is SUPPOSED to exist, as a detour to true practice that yields demonstrable results. He is supposed to mislead those who are easily mislead. Those who find this distasteful are supposed to call him out for this. Everything is as it should be. Everything is perfect.

well, if they do have those jedi powers they tell us they have. Surely it would be better that they are proven? Then the jedi council can charge more than $15 for levitation.

By the way 'speaking in tongues' does this not sound like a cult? Some types of Christian groups encourage this but because they are accepted religion are exempt from being called a cult. Just google 'cults' and pretty much this organisation ticks most boxes.

we have a secret - tick
only we can share it with you - tick
your family and others wont understand - tick
we need a shit load of money and total dedication before we can show it to you - tick
now drink this fizzy green stuff - waiting on that one

Its this 'blind faith' that churns my stomache. Defending people with fantastical claims that you have not seen, in the hope that one day you will be one of the privileged inner circle.

I am not a sheeple.

Worth googling:
Sheeple
Cult
Mind control
Subliminal persuasion
rhetoric

Read a bit of that and if you still think its worth following these guys please continue. Then when you have achieved some mastery come back and share it with us. Most of use will be happy to apologise and will be willing students for you.

I personally will take a lot more interest in those who can come here and actually show us what their $$$$ and dedication has achieved. I would like to be part of the next stage in human evolution. If its legit you are pioneers and people will build giant statues of the people who changed humanity.

Best of luck and I sincerely hope to see you here with progress reports.

As I said. I do not feel like responding anymore as it does not lead anywhere and sure not to quite a few of your statements for specific reasons. To all those who see a cult in all of that let me state the following:

I have an M.A. (Magister Artium) in social sciences from Potsdam University Germany (4 years of study). I did specialization in medical sociology (wrote my paper in that area. It is not comparable to a Phd. work/paper) and cultural sociological studies. (edit: Psychology was big part of my training as well as philosophy). My teacher in the latter (cultural sociological studies) was into studies on cults so I did extensive study on that. I am as well a medical doctor (studied at the FU Berlin/Charité) currently doing specialization in Psychosomatic medicine. My doctor thesis is in the works and hopefully gets finished sometime soon (if Heaven allows). It is done in Psychiatry (I worked 4 monthes in a "protected/closed ward" -not only-). So I know what ill religious mania can look like. (edit: later added:) I am trained in acupuncture as well. I am an accredited acupuncturist by the Berlin Ärztekammer (no. NOT a "licensed acupuncturist" -L.AC. according to American standards as this does not exist in Germany as individual profession.). I have high interest in exploring the healing techniques of the path followed. If I ever develop the ability of producing this "electric like current" (not clear if I will continue on that path or the other option given though) I hope to be able to utilize it for healing. (edit: later added:) do I believe in the possibility of its existence? Indeed I do. I do not consider it "magic" as some declassified it though, but a natural ability that can be developed with the proper training given.

My teacher in cultural studies very likely -as some of you- would sense a cult here. Some signs are there but it is the nature of things that the signs perceived do not necessarily have that meaning. I know what a cult is, I have at least experienced one from the inside and seen the mechanisms at work, and I suppose to have gotten some sense from the inside of another. Haven't had enough chance to go deeper in the evaluation.

So far the troubles presented to classify what you classify as a cult are not enough to make it that. Is it a group? Indeed it is (edit: slight correction: even this is not describing it properly as most students are only loosely connected if at all). Are there mechanisms at work that are at work in cults. Indeed there are, but they are not different to mechanisms at work outside of a cult. The same mechanism can have a negative, positive, natural and "no" meaning at all. All up to the observer to decide and only the one utilizing it to know what indeed is behind it.

Could I be all wrong about "this group". As stated elsewhere the possibility is always there. One thing is sure though:

people just looking on something from the outside will only see that much. Sometimes this oberserver-position is the better one to the one that from inside might not be able to perceive certain aspects. The opposite is true as well. If Castaneda existed he made one thing clear: Sometimes it is necessary to leave the "just observer" position (even in science) and actually enter, maybe even merge with, the experience to get at least a sense of grasping it.

Nobody judging from outside has that benefit and will never have it.



Harry
(edit: later added:) PS: For those who read the above in the future. All that "I have a degree here and there" is actually silly. Just given due to specifics in recent discussions and not necessary at all. Actually quite disgusting to my own perception.

The emperor does SO have clothes!

Of course we are in agreement; i'm just showing another side of things. Still, i agree with your comments.

It has been implied elsewhere that I am writing under the name "Hern Heng" (or maybe the other skeptical guy) Perhaps it's too big a stretch to think I'm not the only one?

Anyway, I'm not him.

You are a Novice Level Cult Member my friend Sean is much more advanced. Beginning cult members always try to prove they aren't in a cult. Intermediate level cult members tell beginners that arguing is a waste of time. Advanced cult members (or leaders), tell them that it is all "part of the plan."

It is part of the Plan, just not part of your plan

Still, this is all amusing (in a way that i am almost ashamed of). If it wasn't good for some readers then i wouldn't engage in this guilty pleasure.



My friend, there are MANY well educated people who fall victims to cults of all sorts (this would be a cool book title for anyone interested haha).

The fact that you have studied cults means that you are even more brainwashed if you don't at least agree that your group SOUNDS like a cult in many ways.



So far we know that you agree your Professors would consider David's group a cult. We also know that you have been involved in a cult in the past.

In Grade School Mathematics, this is expressed as: Harry was in a cult + Harry's Professors on Sociology and Cults (and Cult related this and that), would say Harry is in a cult now = Harry is in a cult now.



You have a leader who does not demonstrate what he claims to be able to do.

You have a leader and a representative of the leader demanding money for access to the leader.

You have a leader who claims credentials that he does not produce (not even a photograph of him with his teacher).

You have students who defend him to the death and act as though these things are not the least bit bizarre.

Wake up call dude, you are in a cult.



Good point. To understand murder i should become a murderer. To understand rape i should be a rapist. To understand disease i should deliberately contract disease. To understand cults i should become a willing cult member.

Come on man.



Buddy is someone i don't know at all, and never spoken with (to my knowledge). As those online can see, we're both online at the same time. Moderators can confirm our IP's are almost certainly very distant.

And you are much more erudite than I. Mine is more pit bull style. I'm the Charles Bukowski of skepticism.

Novice Level cult member. Nice title. While you are right that the most educated can fall into the traps your analysis is most amusing and proves my intitial impression of your presentation. Without wanting to drift too much int being like an asshole: Grade School Mathematics is my impression for sure. Some arguments simply are not true. That IS a fact! And I DO know while you clearly don't. Students defending a teacher to death makes them students defending the teacher to death. One two even three or more students to not represent the whole of the group. Simple as that. Please read my posts more exactly. I actually explained that there are signs that can be interpreted as that of a cult. Although not equal one might want to extend that meaning: to "sound like a cult". "Sounding like a cult" does not MAKE it a cult.

Calling someone brainwashed who studied something indepth is funny indeed...

Your examples are interesting... I would choose different ones: if you want to know what it means to burn a finger you have to burn your finger. If you want to know what a cherry tastes like you need to taste one.

But see "my friend". Whatever I say. Your filter is one that will "always" lead to only one conclusion. I consider myself having an open filter (not too open, just in case someone wanted to jump at that) and am willing to change my mind with what is to come. It just won't happened due to biased statements based on nonfounded ideas and believes.



Harry

i'm sure you are far more educated than me Sunshine. After all, i'm only a Super-Mega Doctor of Awesomeness, where as you are a Doctor of SUPREME Awesomeness.

...oh well, i figured if David can call himself a Doctor without even having Master's level education then we could both be doctors of some sort.

...right?

Okay, anyway Sunshine, there is "passive" then there is "passive-aggressive." Your responses emanate passive-aggressiveness. Most would find it offensive. i find it humorous. Perhaps i'd take it more seriously if it was executed in a slightly more subtle manner.



True!

...or not true.

I mean: THIS not THAT!



AWESOME!



Of course you do. You know that even your own cult members agree publicly that David can't do anything but make outlandish promised about ability he is sure he will one day be able to confer to you ...and check his account balance for the daily increase from people he's suckered into thinking he is anything but a novice himself.



Yes, defending a teacher is fine... provided the teacher can demonstrate what they can do. If any of my teachers was PUBLICLY advertising abilities that they could not make good on, then they would not be my teachers.



Please show me an example of something that is "like" a cult in every way that your group is, and yet is still not a cult.



Yes, because cult members do not study? You clearly have not studied cults as much as you claim.



How about this... if you want to know what it is like to die from eating a poisonous plant then you need only to refer to how it feels to have a more mild form of food poisoning and then project how that would be to a more extreme extent.

...if that didn't cut the mustard for you: if you want to know what it feels like to have 4th degree burns, imagine 2nd degree burns that you may have had and imagine the variance in intensity between 1st and 2nd degree, and project it to 4th.

Seems reasonable enough, right?



Let's make a wager... In five years, i wager that you will not be able to do ANY of the things that Sean has been posting about David. What will you wager? Want to make it ten years? i'll be around: post here or on any Dao forum and address "Hern-Heng" and i'm sure word will get to me.

Seriously dude. Let me know. i'd rather you wake up in 10 years than never at all. i wouldn't say this if i didn't care

>>Okay, anyway Sunshine, there is "passive" then there is "passive-aggressive." Your responses emanate passive-aggressiveness. Most would find it offensive. i find it humorous. Perhaps i'd take it more seriously if it was executed in a slightly more subtle manner.<<

Sorry dude. The way one shouts into the forest...

but actually just once again a misperception or probably just an intended misinterpretation?

I honestly clearly perceive you as someone enjoying to play a game. My conclusion of discussions like that is always just one. That I am still not clever enough to stay out of them.

>>Let's make a wager... In five years, i wager that you will not be able to do ANY of the things that Sean has been posting about David. What will you wager? Want to make it ten years? i'll be around: post here or on any Dao forum and address "Hern-Heng" and i'm sure word will get to me. <<

I have a pratice blog here Hern-Heng. So I am sharing anyway. No time limit set for myself, no interest in bets, no interest in the Randy-million dollars

>> if i didn't care<<

If you indeed do. then: Thankx man

For the time being. Be & stay well.



Harry

Brother, i'm anything but passive when i attack

Believe me, i'm just being aggressive with a smile. Don't confuse the fact that i'm playing relatively nice with passivity.



There are games that people play to waste time and games that people play because there is benefit in playing them. Still, it is good to bear in mind that it is a game. i'm playing a game with you, but the game is quite serious.



This is fine. Hopefully you'll remember this in five and then ten years anyway and reflect upon it.



Oh God-damn-it-all, i do care

Your poison analogy only highlights your ignorant stance. Food poisoning is caused by bacteria. Depending on which of the many different poisonous plants you would consume, some may attack the liver, some may swell your tongue until your airway is blocked, some may just make you itch... Not all poisonous plants will present like food poisoning.
It is foolish to assume something about a person, teaching, whatever, without experiencing it yourself.
But that isn't the issue here.
Looks to me like you get off on arguing. Everything you write is posturing to make whomever you are addressing appear ridiculous, rather than searching for facts or truth.

In fact you have no idea what happens at Davids seminars, you have know idea what David has experienced or can do, you have no idea what his motives are. No clue. Nor do I. But I don't claim to know.

You are making assumptions and calling them truth which is extremely ignorant. Skepticism is one thing. Ignorance is another. You have no proof of your claims or his. I doubt your continued belligerence is convincing anyone otherwise. But I am not ignorant enough to assume that to be true at this point.

Oh shit, my analogy was off a little. Well shit, i guess i had better give you your money back... Oh yeah, i'm not charging you money to talk to me

Truth be told, however, what i had in mind was a poisoning from poison food. i was thinking of along the line of wild edible plants. Thankfully, i have never eaten a poisonous edible plant. You know what? This is because i'm not a moron who thinks i need to taste the fucking plant that i know is poisonous (from it's identifying traits that have cataloged it as poisonous).

Nevertheless, i chose the wording poorly (and clearly should have written at least a paragraph of explanatory preface to my analogy!), and for this i am now paying the high price of utter humiliation at your hands.

i humbly submit to your astuteness. Now if you can only explain to me how this relates to the legitimacy of David Verdessi then i'll be sold!

P.S. Thank you for making my point for me better than i had done myself.

I'm the Doctor of Love.

Oh man! i am reaaaally wishing that i had thought of that!

Well the sarcasm isn't helping your argument.
Anyway, horrible, painful death aside, if you truly want to know what the different types of poisonous plants feel like then you sure do need to eat them. Even talking to someone who has eaten them would be a step closer than you are now to knowing what it feels like. Just looking at your analogy from a different angle.

Still not sure what your point is in all of this other than to blindly attack someone for presenting things that don't fit within your view of reality or what is an appropriate student/teacher scenario. And I emphasize blindly because most if not all of your assertions are based on assumption, second-hand (at best) info and misunderstanding.

Its fine if you don't believe in any of David's claims. Nothing wrong with that. If I had approached them from a different angle or a few years ago I probably wouldn't either. We all have our own ideas of what is possible.

But to sit at your at your desk between phone calls or whatever, and make belligerent attacks on a man thousands of miles away without knowing who or what you are speaking against? Ignorant, arrogant, misguided, hateful and just plain foolish.


What are your credentials? At what University did you complete your thesis?

Hey! What's wrong with having a degree in Maths!
Shrink!!

And "Hern Heng", it is Verdesi, with only one s.

Pietro

Actually I wanted to say "logic"... but that would have been too unkind.



Harry

I say we ask Sean O to throw this one in the pit...

Hey, I'm new to the forum but I've been reading along for a while now. I don't think Verdesi is any cult leader, but I think it's strange that such a "well accomplished" individual would need to charge thousands of dollars just to show some basics. And the connection to the Healing Tao that has been so discredited here is also strange. I know I'm not saying anything new here, and I'm not trying to fan the flames. I just don't think this kind of practice should have a price tag on it. And if it does, it shouldn't be enough to buy a new car with.

Of course you do



Actually, it was my analogy, not my argument. Sarcasm neither hurts nor helps my argument. The argument is about the facts about David which neither you nor Harry, nor Sean are actually disputing as inaccurate.



Your argument is called "splitting hairs." The point was that you don't need to BE poisoned to death to get the gist of what being poisoned to death is like.

You can say this is not true, but you are in no better position than i to say this (since neither of us have been poisoned to death).



i am attacking based on undisputed facts regarding his actions alone and his admission of lack of accomplishment (to the degree he is alluding he is or will be able to impart).

Far out.....David cant even fill his own dantien he has to suck it from a bull. And now he claims to have YinYang GONG....hilarious

That means also he accomplished it faster than any Chinese Master ever did......must be the italian genetics

indeed we do have a natural advantage.

Yes, sucking Qi from a bull really underlines how pathetically Left Hand Path his practice is.

That sort of shit (draining others to empower yourself), has been out of vogue in Daoism since the T'ien Shr basically emerged in reaction to the Left Hand Path deviation of Proto-Daoist Fang Shr (not that fang shr in and of themselves are somehow "un-Daoist") of their era.

Daoism purports to be a Middle Path, not the sum of both Right and Left, but something that is neither and in between both methods.

Could you please elaborate on the Left, right hand paths.

Truly this has gotten beyond ridiculous.

The best one ever told was the so called "Liberation Of The Rabbits Karma"

Not satisfied with Blasting these poor Animals with his own (Or The Bulls) Chi, The Immortal Shifu Jiang later Skinned The rabbits & they were promptly served up as "Chop Suey" For all Students to Feast Upon like Savages.

"The purpose being................. That of Spiritual Enlightenment & The Cleansing of Negative Karma created by these "Evil Rabbits" in previous Lifetimes."

Loooool ,Maybe Sean & David should try Their Hand at Writing Science Fiction Novels instead.