Dude said everything that i have noticed, except he noticed it FROM THE INSIDE.

http://www.thetaobums.com/To-those-who-pla...y-it-t4724.html

i'm making my way through the threads. As i noted to Harry/Sunshine, and then to Darebak, you don't need to eat poisonous plants to know that they are poisonous. Jesus (one of my favorite Daoist Immortals), said you know a tree by its fruits; non-poisonous types do not automatically produce poisonous fruit one day and poisonous ones do not produce non-poisonous fruit one day. You know because of the collective experiences of others.

Kongzi said "To learn the new, study the old."

It is good to see the "old" experiences of someone from the inside concur with my observations and those of so many on the outside.

the only thing you can succede with this approach is free publicity for the guy, funny isnt it

Well yes and no (believe me, i considered this before posting anything about him)...

The problem is that really enigmatic masters always tend to be sort of eccentric and aloof. The thing is that they don't typically charge you shit loads of money to talk to them or to talk to their students. They charge you in working your fucking ass off.

If they have a school, expenses, overhead, then you get charged a fee to pay your share. You DO NOT pay $40,000 for a seminar. You DO NOT pay $7000. You MIGHT pay $10,000 for Bai Shi at WU DANG SZU, but even then that's not for a seminar, that's for a lifetime of inner door information.

...AND that's Wu Dang (and again, Bai Shi, not a seminar).

You certainly do not pay two dudes down the chain of command to talk to a dude that you are not even sure they have any contact whatsoever with.

To illustrate the point: Hi, i'm Hern Heng, i am a disciple of Wang, Li-Ping. He has taught me the inner most secrets. David is just a guy we are using to mislead the stupid and weak minded, to weed out those unworthy of our true teachings.

Prove that this is not true.

You can't, but still, it is logical that it is not true. In the same way, i can't "prove" that David never went through lineage initiation with Wang, but HE has to prove that he has if he is going to market himself on the basis of this.

My posting this (and related), posts here (and there and everywhere if need be), informs people of this (when they were perhaps unaware of HOW things work if you are a Daoist disciple).

i understand you and i do appreciate your posts where you share some of what you have learned. it helps many of us see a bigger picture of what we are doing, and that is a good thing, there have been many mistery talks around here, but fiew made sense, beyound just battling egomania

i too studied their forum a while ago, and many more others, including the long-lost HT archive since the early beginning, and after confronting with facts from other people that knew some of the characters, i came to a stupid conclusion: YOU CANNOT FIND TRUE STORIES ON THE INTERNET.

to some this is unfair, to me is just sad. what is even sad is that most of us dont have a well equipped "BS detector", often the bull is taken for the real thing, and viceversa. this is an open forum, in which everyone can create whatever image they want, and the rest is free to just ASS-U-ME.

the most important thing is having around us good people too, that really want to help clear out the fog a little, in a constructive way. if it was for me, i would have given you a mission like: PLEASE try and gather up some parameters, some guidance lines, for searchers and researchers, by which they would not be so easily mislead.

i know its a free world and everybody has the right to belive any story they want, but there may be yet some, that think otherwise and look otherwise.

and this mission should be for all of us, at least all of us that are interested. please take this the friendly way

points taken.

But Bai Shi is not given to anyone. It is VERY hard to be accepted. And the money is the least. Plus , when did you consider the economic difference? I mean 10.000$ for a Chinese can be much more than for an American.

So it seems that David is offering something which is less than Bai Shi, for anybody who has the money, and for an amount of money which is relatively speaking less.

David is offering to teach you low level Qi Leaching techniques.

Bai Shi IS hard to obtain. It requires dedication, honor and sincerity. It demands focus and approval without approval-seeking. It requires your seniors and your Shrfu to recognize your attainment (kungfu), and you suitability without you presenting it to them as a request. This has been my experience.

That IS harder than buying a book or video, or paying some chump your hard earned money to introduce you to someone who isn't going to really teach you shit (even if HE - not David - might be powerful... that is, no one is going to teach juicy stuff to non-disciples, PERIOD). It is harder but WORTH the effort. i suggest you go the route that all true masters go.

Bai Shi is NOT something that involves the government. Whoever told you that is lying.

Only a student would know the full extent of what David teaches and none have offered that information on this forum or any other public forum.

Ok. Since Wang Liping taught 'you' his inner most secrets, where is the 'germinal vesicle' located?

Give me $2800 USD and i will talk to you about it.



They have indeed offered it.

Please elaborate, If you tell me who, and it is indeed a student who has given actual training info and secrets, I will pay you $300.00 USD. I will even give the money to Sean Olmar to hold, he's very skeptical of us, so you can rest assured he's not biased. I can send the money via paypal today.

Sean




No idea.

Wow! My fellow traveller would have greatly laughed at me if I had charged him US $10 for the info, let alone pay $2,800. Where is the Tao yi?

However if you like others have not reached a certain level, telling you where the 'germinal vesicle' is, tantamounts to revealing Heaven's secrets; since Laozi and the Quanzhen Zhenren had only mentioned it in metaphors.

Whether Wang Liping would reveal it to his Quanzhen students is another thing altogether.

i think sean was calling a bluff... david's students don't seem like the type to give out teaching for free that they paid thousands for.... i am amazed at how much bs there is on this forum... people spending hours a day arguing about things they can only really guess about unless they have experienced them… most have not it would seem. people asking one offensive question after another in such ugly, insecure way…

What ‘secrets’ are we talking about when David’s students need years to ‘open’ or ‘grow’ the Dantien?

Those who know a thing or two about neidan practice would definitely laugh at the silliness and question the commercialization of all this.

For $10,000 i will tell anyone the secrets of life.

i have to charge this much to make sure that the unworthy are weeded out.

Never mind the fact that Wang, Li-Ping's teachers did not charge people (including him), nor did Chang's. Times are changing for Alchemy IncorporatedTM.

If you have a school, you charge to keep the lights on. You don't charge to get rich. The only MA teachers who charge enough that they get rich are ALWAYS hucksters. Always. No one gets into MA for wealth, and be sure that MA and Daoist alchemy have ALWAYS been intertwined.

i would even like a demonstration of David's Kungfu since he has supposedly been studying for 20 years. He must be quite good; i've only been training for 14 and something tells me that i wouldn't have too much trouble with him (super powers - in spite of never having passed Level 1 of the Mo Pa'i tradition before being kicked out - and all).

All the promises on the web by the so-called masters about achieving immortality through neidan mean nothing, since none knows the importance of the germinal vesicle. There is no necessity to make any payments to anyone for the info. Not many neidan ‘adepts’ would know where it is located, let alone what it is.

If students of Tao want to know more about the germinal vesicle, we can turn to Laozi and Buddha.

According to Liu Huayang who wrote the Hui Ming Ching, the secret of making and melting was made known by Buddha who had referred to the germinal vesicle in the Leng Yen (Shurangama Sutra).

In case, fellow students think that only Buddha knew about it, Laozi had pointed to the germinal vesicle in Chapter Five of his Tao Te Ching, more than 2,500 years ago:

Between Heaven and Earth, There seems to be a Bellows: It is empty, and yet it is inexhaustible. The more it works the more comes out of it.
No amount of words can fathom it: Better look for it within you.
[TTC 5 - Wu’s translation]

Either you pay the ‘masters’ plenty of US dollars for the same information - provided they know how to discern it - or you can get it for free from the ancients and the Zhen Ren. The choice is entirely yours.

Spiritual materialism.

Please read this:

http://www.sacred-texts.com/bud/tib/cutting.htm


Good luck with everything.

What is a "germinal vesicle"?

"The ‘germinal vesicle’ is an invisible cavern; it has neither form nor image. When the vital breath stirs, the seed of this vesicle comes into being; when it ceases it disappears again.

It is called the dragon castle at the bottom of the sea, the boundary region of the snow mountains, the primordial pass, the kingdom of greatest joy, the boundless country. "
[Hui Ming Ching]


When the vital breath stirs, the ‘vesicle’ will manifest. Then you would know its exact location. When your hand touches it, it will disappear.

If you do know the exact location, the so-called masters on the web could pay you many US dollars to buy the information for their spin. But since US dollars are becoming ‘worth less’, I would not reveal where it is located! (Joke)

Let neidan adepts and the ‘masters’ figure the location out by themselves, as they should.

Sounds like the PC muscles to me, at least that's been my experience with them--inexhaustible energy.

this has been written about by many people... no big secret. it has many names... germinal vesicle is a western term... of course really experiencing it is another story...

this is basic stuff

Well I think I never heard of it before.
But then I'm not a nei kung practicioner.

So it's not a physical thing, but an energetic one? What is it's purpose?

... it's from the secret of the golden flower... germinal vesicle is just a western term for the first cell of human conception... they say there is no translation of this book that contains the methods of practice, others disagree... i tend to agree you need a teacher to show you... from what i read on the foundation forum this is part of their basic training...

...germinal vesicle, boundless country, primordial pass, etc.... you can google it.

$10,000 USD going once... going twice...

Ah I see, thanks.

Sure, it is basic … to those who have had experienced it.

It only takes ten years of dual cultivation, sometimes more, but most times never, to experience it – if you happened to discuss the subject with neidan adepts. It is so basic that the Zhen Ren – Zhong Liquan and Zhang Boduan –, Laozi and Buddha needed to emphasize its importance to neidan practice.

The translation of the Hui Ming Ching text by Richard Wilhelm/Baynes has been available in the West for decades. No surprises that the ‘masters’ include the ‘germinal vesicle’ or its Daoist equivalents on their websites. Like you and others on the web, Mantak Chia’s official website in Thailand had incorrectly referred to this text, with copy and paste from the said translation, as The Secret of the Golden Flower. So much for understanding the basics!

These are some of the reasons why I only asked of its location – if you have been following this short thread properly.

And I am not volunteering to correct your understanding of it. You can always pay Hern Heng for some real or recycled info, if you so wish.

Alan

can you prove that you have personally experienced it?

I have never claimed to be a master. Therefore there is no necessity to provide proof of my experiences to anyone. After all, neidan adepts could have told me about the ‘germinal vesicle’ and its location … or you could have missed what I had already provided, something not available on websites of ‘masters’ nor explicitly expressed in Daoist texts and Buddhist scriptures.

Like me, you could simply put a subtle yet pertinent question to the ‘masters’. And wait for the correct answer which I am sure can be verified by those in the know.

I could raise more difficult questions, but I cannot afford to pay Hern Heng for the answers. Perhaps you can show him the color of your money as proof!

Ok, so basically you dont know what you are talking about.

It is true that in the highest level of alchemy the male sticks a wooden peg up his ass -- i.e. to block the P.C. muscle (read: Taost Yoga: Alchemy and Immortality)

You can also check you’ve got the right muscle by inserting a finger (for women in the vagina, for men in the anus) and squeezing your PC muscle. If you feel pressure around your finger, you’re using the right muscle.

You are putting words in my mouth, and seemed too lazy to look at previous posts.



A good example of people who tend to speak through their arseholes.

For the benefit of those who had missed what I had indicated earlier and which is not available on 'masters' websites on the 'germinal vesicle':



Of course members can continue to speculate if I know about or have experienced the 'germinal vesicle' or not. It sometimes pays to be a bit more discerning of what fellow members post. They could know something beyond your knowledge or those of your master(s).

So, why dont you tell us?

"know" does not cut it- parroting eva wong's translation is worthless.

Stop being cutie-coy and tell us if you have experienced it or not will ya?

Im happy sticking things in your ar$e is not in my practice of cultivation!

Please provide the quote. I am sure others could be equally interested on what Eva Wong had written or know about the ‘germinal vesicle’.

ok then. you refuse to answer. it means you just regurgitate. personally, you have no clue.

I'll state the obvious: would make a damn good band name.

I'll right I'm leaving the computer to do other work so you all are safe now! haha.

I hope i'm not interrupting anything

Procurator, I think you should try and focus your beliefs in a thread of your own.

You told us about DON'Ts, please try and formulate something about the DO's

Otherwise, your credibility is greatly flawed. In case that doesnt bother you, carry on.

(shrug) as opposed to yourself i find that telling people what to do unasked- is bad form.


you are amazingly perceptive. thanks for your kind permission too.

well i just asked ya, so go ahead and speak up im sure you have something worth to say

i am truely interested

i am certain you are. who would not be? you are casually asking me to go ahead and divulge hard earned , knowledge that is both precious and secret. naive does not begin to describe your request.

i didnt ask you to divulge secrets. did i? of course not.
feel free to share anything you want, that is not secret.
or you can show us a way to find................ to- find- a- way- to- have- a -chanse- to- find- a -way- to- be- lucky- enough- to find a way to earn hard that knowledge ourselves.

and im not playing irony here

(please be really carefull what you say now)

i hope my sense of humor isn't being lost on anyone.

thank you, i always am.

now, there are worthy and there are unworthy, there are those that have destiny and those that have not. the Way is not a public matter, it never has been. If it is in public or for the public - its not the Way.

most of the people dont have destiny, its just a fact of life. you are welcome to talk to me privately my icq is 388 120 744.

Hey! Procurator, are you not practising double standards?

And is it your usual style to accuse member(s) of parroting someone's translation without providing concrete evidence? Please surprise me with Eva Wong's written experience on the 'germinal vesicle'. Thanks.

Hi Allen,

I hope I can help clear up your concern about David. He and Wang Liping are writing a book together on the secret of the golden flower. Actually the title is a mistranslation; modern scholars don't really have a clue.

The book (no book does) does not show you how to do the practice and many of the texts are incorrect in their theory and translation. The stuff that's out there on this practice is greatly flawed and incomplete; some of this is intentional.

Sifu Wang intends to give the Gong only (outer teaching). His hope is that lay people will benifit and that some will reach a good level to go further.

David is one of two students to ever actually receive permission to teach Long Men Pai from Sifu Wang. I will post some more info soon to share about the experiences I had with Wang Liping. Hopefully that will paint a little clearer picture of David's relationship to Sifu and put to rest the doubts that people will naturally want to express.

S

I was trying to establish if you have personally experienced "the cavity". You have not. Whose words were you repeating is of no concequence. if not wong's it could have been cleary's translations etc.

Per your request here is a list of wong's works:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/103-8...p;x=15&y=26

[quote name='Procurator' date='Feb 11 2008, 05:09 AM' post='53313']
I was trying to establish if you have personally experienced "the cavity". You have not. Whose words were you repeating is of no concequence. if not wong's it could have been cleary's translations etc.

Per your request here is a list of wong's works:
http://www.amazon.com/s/ref=nb_ss_gw/103-8...p;x=15&y=26
[/quote]

When some neidan adepts do not even know how the ‘germinal vesicle’ feels like, how could they know its exact location? You have not been reading between the lines of what I had already indicated and you want to compare me with the experiences of translators who are known to be neither here nor there with neidan practices?

It is my usual practice to tell off those who made statements on forums that tend to mislead students and those who contradict what I have said on topics I am versed with, without substantive evidence to the contrary. However for you, I am going to make an exception in order to follow my Quanzhen friend’s compassionate example of allowing people to make three mistakes.

I have already made two polite requests for you to quote the source of translation where you accused me of parroting. This is your third and final chance.

Please quote the translation and the relevant paragraph (s) where you have read the same of what I had indicated about the ‘germinal vesicle’:
quote name='allan' date='Feb 9 2008, 02:18 AM' post='52969']
When the vital breath stirs, the ‘vesicle’ will manifest. Then you would know its exact location. When your hand touches it, it will disappear.

[/quote]

The break up in the text of the Secret of the Golden Flower has been well documented in the Wilhelm/Baynes translation. You are not saying anything new. That is one of the reasons why the Hui Ming Ching has been included in the translation.

A word for fellow members from a Quanzhen friend, who happened to be an elder of Long Men Pai and a high level neidan practitioner, and I qoute:

"Quanzhen do not charge any fees for teaching neidan practices to students. However Quanzhen will only teach higher levels of the practice to those students who have a good character, meaning those who are considered virtuous. "

As I have warned before in another thread, you and your teacher have to be a bit more circumspect of your claims on Wang Liping and his authority. And of your knowledge of how Daoist temples are run in China. Can you not see what had happened in that thread?

My Quanzhen friend can get access to directly speak to Wang. Do you really want some of the misleading claims to reach the ears of Wang Liping?

Hi Allan!

It is not clear to me exactly what you are saying here. As I read you and others, the Wilhelm translation of the Secret of the Golden Flower is somehow incomplete or flawed, can you elaborate exactly what is wrong with it? Further, you suggest the incomplete text has been somehow corrected with the inclusion of a translation of the of Hui Ming Ching, can you point to a text that has the corrected version of the Secret of the Golden Flower you speak of?

Many thanks!

In kind regards,

Adam.

Could you please compassionately answer the question that you so compassionately try to evade?

Have you personally achieved this ‘germinal vehicle’?

Yes or No?

Dear Dao Zhen:

I didn’t ask the Chinese Taoist Association to give you an official letter.

There is little possible to make the Chinese Taoist Association get involved with Wang Liping.

So I can only tell you what I’ve known.

Nowadays Daoism has been protected by Chinese government.

The highest organization is the Chinese Taoist Association(C.T.A).

This organization was set up with headquarters in the White Cloud Temple in Beijing in April 1957.

The representatives conference usually hold every 5 years, the president of C.T.A must be voted again every conference, no one can be the president over 2 conference(10 years).

The last representatives conference was hold in June 2005, the senior Taoist Ren Farong has been voted as the president, he was born in 1937.

The goal of the association is to:

~ Unite believers in Taoism through the country to perpetuate and develop its fine traditions.

~ To help Chinese government carry out the policy of religious freedom.

~ To carry forward research on Taoism.

~ To make voices in reunifying the country and for maintaining world peace.

I know little about Wang Liping, at least he isn’t the member in charge of governing any Taoism Organizations in China.

I am admire your spirit immensely for propagating the Taoist culture.

All the best!

Sincerely, Teacher Qiu Yuanxing

Disciple of 19th Generation of Dragon Gate Sect of Complete Reality of Taoism

White Cloud Temple
Xi Bian Men Wai, Xi Cheng District
Beijing 100045
Peoples Republic of China
www.bjbyg.com