Hello,

What do you feel about physcial exercises, do you feel that it cultivates chi or only meditation or chi kung?

Here is some examples of physcial exercises:

1 Kung fu (external fast forms, wushu, karate kata etc)
2 Body building
3 sprints
4 Grappling, wrestling
5 Surfing
6 bike

These are just cardio mixed strength workouts, do you think this can cultivate energy or do you think only seated still will only cultivate it?

WYG

I am thinking of doing Xingyi which is quite physical and I believe does cultivate qi. Lot's of lower tan tien power.

I need to stay tight with MA in case you ever come to the States so we can spar

Oh CAMERON, thats like throwing out burly for the sharks man, this might just come true?!

heheh Hope your levitation is up to par??

There is no question that physical exercise cultivates qi as long as it does not cross the threshold of injuring the body (in which case it still cultivates, but then also must repair and thus depletes).

Traditional Chinese Martial Arts are great (and well known for this). Xingyiquan is the quickest way to build energy with Martial Arts. Baguazhang and T'aijiquan are better for circulating what you build with Xingyiquan (necessary if you wish to utilize what you build).

Hi Hern,

Can you explain how Xingyi cultivates it and why you feel its quicker and why you feel that xingyi was your 1st choice of arts, thanks?

WYG

Cool

No, i actually hated Xingyiquan at first.

i say it builds more because i feel a huge boost of Yang qi whenever i practice Xingyiquan. As such, i have taken to practicing it first to warm up, then circulating with T'aijiquan, then moving on to Baguazhang to segway into other, more numerous form work.

If i only have time for limited work, then i do the three popular Nei Jia in the aforementioned order. i usually feel as much of a Yang qi boost from Xingyi as i do from the equivalent time engaged in sex (unless over a couple of hours... but alas i hardly have the time for such lengthy bouts of sex these days).

So no, no pro-Xingyi bias with me. i actually found it boring when i started. Over time, as internal sensitivity developed i came to appreciate the art as more than just the third of Sun, Lu-T'ang's "Top Three" haha

As for "how," this is because of the form of the elements (and the animals based on an element root), and how these relate to the meridians.

You all know my feelings about qi (well not really, but I WILL write post about it soon).
But re: martial arts. if you don't get it into your body, you're just talking about it. That means hours and hours of practice. Just like everything.

I have a theory that low-intensity activity like walking or Taijiquan activates qi. This is why you don't feel tired after walking.

Whereas high-intensity activity also activates it...but then exhausts it as well. Which is why you feel tired after a hard workout.

So in the end, you either end up with a net gain or loss of qi. And if it was too strenuous, it's probably a net loss.


So, this may be one reason why most Taoist internal arts stay in slow-mo with no extended intense activity. And also why walking is my favorite exercise these days..

"As for "how," this is because of the form of the elements (and the animals based on an element root), and how these relate to the meridians."


What? Meridians? This is no help at all. Forget about the meridians, xingyi is a martial art.

FWIW I feel that Chi cultivation comes from breathwork with intent so :-

1 & 4. Possibly, if done with that aim as it may be part of the system. I remember a friend of mine, His son (12) was doing Karate and showing us one of his black belt forms. The son didn’t really understand the form as it was very slow compared to the other forms and it had a lot of “strange brething” in it. For me and my other friend (who does wing chun) it looked very familiar

2,3,6 No (I think my Sifu would say these reduce your health)

5. Surfing. Interesting. If non competitive, I'm going to go with not sure but perhaps. Due to the appreciation of nature that surfers seem to develop.

Buddy,

What would you call the feeling of fullness, tingling, energy etc one sometimes experiences in the lower abdomen during qigong or IMA practice?

Isn't this feeling of fullness in the lower abdomen, tingling, heat etc, qi?

Or do you consider it something else?

There just seems to be a tangible feeling one can experience in the lower abdomen with training(whether meditation or IMA).

Cam

"This is why you don't feel tired after walking."

Come on. When I had cancer waking made me extremely tired. Even no, with sciatica it does, because my muscles have to compensate. No need to talk about qi here.

Cam,
It's late. I'll try to address this tomorrow when I talk about qi.

Heng,

Thanks i understand thats your arts you practice and makes sense for the Yang Qi compared to the 2 others!

What about other sports or fitness type training non martial or internal, just western type fitness?

WYG

Cam,

Money wise i cant afford it wife and kid plus bills, but if you want to you can make the plane trip out here to see me.

No chi kung just fighting is fine with me, unless Max runs his seminar here and you make the trip over and i get to see MAX and fight you?

That sounds better for me!!

WYG

C'mon - it's relative.

Cancer alone is going to drain your qi, as well as other health ailments. Not the walking itself, per se.

C'mon,
We have to establish that qi exists first. Chemo tires you out. Muscles having to compensate tires you out. I'm not seeing qi in there.

Sorry bro, no plans to visit Australia any time soon. Keep training though, I don't want it to be too easy for me when we meet

Actually I think WYG trains for competitive fighting, So I’d recommend staying out of a ring, cause he is probably is pretty fit. First 30 seconds would be fun to watch though

HAHAHAHA okay Cameron, ill keep training mate dont worry im sure ill make you work and you know you are definetly in a fight. Do we sign waivers for injuries or death, can Tao ums sponsor us for the trip?

If my students in N.Y bring me over for a worshop do you think you can fly to N.Y, ill have a video we can youtube it?

Anyway back to the main topic!!!







Damn it Mal, shhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh !!!!

Hows your TongLong? by the way "Gung Hei Fut Choi" happy new year to you all!

Ok, that's a separate question then - and I don't think one that can be "proven" to you on a messageboard, really.

As for health problems - if half your energy is already diverted to start with, it stands to reason that walking may then be even too strenuous for you. So, of course it's all relative. But for the majority of people out there, it's not too strenuous.

Sure! Martial Arts are just traditionally employed because they are Yang in intent in the first place. You get a boost of yang qi when you competitively spar.

Going to the gym and having a good quality protein shake after wards will boost yang qi as well... just in a different way (a way that alchemaically produces muscle change, not as much tendon change, and certainly not as much brain cell and bone marrow change). Still, there are many things that boosted qi can be cultivated to do; marrow, brain, tendons, muscles, stored qi in dan t'ien, etc... The first four primarily involve techniques. The last involves meditation.

Hern,

Thanks for your replies mate!

Do you think doing cardio, weights (yang qi) type training should be balanced with meditation or chi kung or chi kung, med then yang qi training or does it matter?

cheers
WYG

You Gotta move,everyday.
walk hard every day with my dog up and down hills
climb trees up to seven meters and prune hardwoods for agroforestry
surf two to three times a week for up to two to three hours at a time
do tai chi yang style long form
do various forms of qi gong
meditate most days
With out a doubt exercise is essential for qi or energy or whatever you want to call it.
Most people today me included don't get enough exercise,on a whole we in western stlye lifes are far,far to inactive and we spend far far to much time indoors.This is especially true for our poor children who are essentially incarcerated in schools were the first thing they are taught is poor sitting habits.
Unless you are growing your own food or strictly eating organic grown food only we are already putting our systems understress.
If you have almalgam fillings in your mouth you are putting your system understress.Mercury makes up to 50 percent of amalgam fillings and is the most toxic natural element to humans.Yet we insist on sticking in our faces inches from our brains.

When I walk around the streets of the city I 'Am AMAZED how unfit the general population is.Poor posture,clouded eyes,bad breath,bad smell,overweight,lack of muscle tone etc.All of this directly related to a lack of exercise,poor or incorrect diet,lack of fresh air and chemical poisoning.

To live in a western stlye country requires a concentrated and consisted effort to maintain ones health.Thank heavens we have access to the various martial arts form to help us.

On a personnel note I have found surfing to be the most beneficial form of exercise.I could rave on for hours about the total immersion of senses and the solid physical work out surfing gives not to mention the all over tingly feeling when you get out.
Tai chi and qi gong help to enhance my balance,agility and breath which help support my prunning work and surfing.
This year I hope to study bjj time and responsabilities permitting.
After the age of forty its all about maintanence. The water has to keep flowing.

That felt good

WYG and Cameron I volunteer my services as an impartial referee,could even be coerced into building a octagon.
Anyone want to put their hand up for announcer.

Good to start out early in the morning, preferably at sun rise when your yang qi naturally is high (ala morning erection). Work out without urinating, until the erection has naturally gone down and the "charge" in the urine is worked through the body.

Usually do most yang work outs during the day, not past 9ish. It's all relative to the individual and climate though. Full moons are a good time to do more yang work.

Meditate mildly (i.e. don't necessarily focus most of your time), after workouts throughout the day (or one). Work outs can be broken up, and not some 2 hour long weight lifting session. You body capitalizes off the work out best when it is about an hour long if it is intensive to the muscles. Feed your body (carbohydrates and protein), right after the work out and do mild meditation.

Night time is best for more intensive meditation practices (in part because you are naturally in a more inward, Yin state). Don't wait until you are sleepy though. Meditate when it is night but your mind is still in an active state.

I have the same theory. Any slow movement with one pointed concentration on it will do. Doesn't have to be taiji. A good excercise is walking in a circle taking one slow step lasting every 15 seconds.

Max

For me, "just" walking doesn't increase chi much, although I do feel good after it. But I do use walking as a chi building exercise. The difference hinges on whether I'm paying attention to the chi (for Buddy, "sensation") in my body as I walk. If I stay very present and keep my attention in my feet and legs, I have the sensation of energy welling up from the ground, filling first my legs and then gradually the rest of my body, and gradually starting to course through different parts of my body in gentle waves. As soon as my mind strays, I am "just" walking again, and have to start over, focusing on my feet. If I can keep my mind occupied in tracking sensation in each moment, I often get so full that I find myself at what Raymond Sigrist, over at apophaticmysticism.com has called "The threshhold of Grace", which borders on the ecstatic. It's just grand.

One of my meditation teachers taught that chi can only be accessed and increased in the present moment, that is, when mind is strongly focused in the present. That is my experience. So my guess is, it's not so much which exercise you're doing, but more your ability to stay intensely focused in the moment, which determines whether you end up with more or less chi after the exercise. I also think that tai chi and chi gung and the other "energy arts" are uniquely designed to increase both energy and flow of energy (unlike western exercises, which are more about muscles than chi). So, doing the energy arts, you get much more chi bang for your time/focus buck. (Please note that I'm in kindergarten, if not preschool, in these arts.) Of course, if you exhaust yourself in any activity, you're not likely to have a net chi gain.

So maybe any activity that keeps you intensely focused on the present moment (without exhausting or injuring you) would greatly enhance chi. Skilllful surfing has got to be one of those.

A side note on chi walking and processing strong emotion. Sometimes I'm emotionally upset, very angry or grieving, when I start my daily chi walk. In my head, I'm told to walk it out, to allow the emotion, but to stay focused on the upwelling chi sensation in feet and lower legs. NOT easy when you're freaking out! But when I am able to do that, the emotion often changes to pure chi, just strong energy moving through my body, no angst, no pain. A similar thing has happened a couple of times when I'm getting Rolfed. Intense pain suddenly changing to feeling like the rolfer's hands are just pushing a huge wave of energy/chi/sensation up and down my leg. Has anybody else had experiences with intense physical or emotional pain morphing into strong chi sensation?

Adeha




QUOTE(Buddy @ Feb 5 2008, 10:30 PM)
"This is why you don't feel tired after walking."

Come on. When I had cancer waking made me extremely tired. Even no, with sciatica it does, because my muscles have to compensate. No need to talk about qi here.
C'mon - it's relative.

Cancer alone is going to drain your qi, as well as other health ailments. Not the walking itself, per se.

Buddy no offense how did you train with BKF and not understand how your chi works or at least have some level of conscious control of it? Am I misunderstanding you? I have read some of your work and posts here and there. I was under the assumption or impression that you can dissolve in both the Fire and Water methods.

Of all the IMA people known and unknown that I know of, not one of them explains it as well as BKF. I had rudimentary control of my chi the first class I ever took with him back in 1996. Just like he said I would in the seminar brochure. Marriage of Heaven and Earth. It was phenomenal until it became old hat.

I don't understand any of BKF's students and trainees that can not very deliberately control chi and intent after a minimal amount of exposure to his stuff. Granted, I had been doing aikido and kundulini as well as assorted occult practices before I was exposed to his energy arts stuff. Still, anyone of his programs should give the beginning attendee some basic control of their own chi using the intention leading methods.

I know you do San Ti, That one practice is all you ever need to know to control awareness, intent and chi. It's a one stop shop for all your chi needs. San ti, circle walking and sitting are the three best ways I know of to cultivate.



I look forward to this post.


As for cultivating itself. Consider the nature of cultivating. Accumulating more energy and keeping it there.

Physical exercise can increase chi, but also burns it too. To be cultivating, you should have more chi afterward, then when you started. Sitting and standing are the most reliable ways to cultivate. You can cultivate with soft relaxed indian yoga or tao yin.

I believe that things like biking, swimming fall under the heading of wei kung or wei dan. As such they build the physical chi and the wei chi. That stuff does not necessarily add to your emotional energy, your psychic energy, your raw chi reserves, your mental presence.

Nei kung and nei dan are cultivating and will restore and increase the various *chi* in your body. You spend a little energy and get a bigger energy pay off.

If you want more energy, seriously want more energy, than just sit and breathe and relax. keep your body from bad posture and alignments, and don't think. Literally do not think. Still your mind, your emotions settle down, your body is relaxed and you start to recharge. When there is nothing taxing your energy, it starts to build up. Not a big secret or all that earth shattering really. It's pretty simple. Just have to do it.

As for acupuncture and hsin yi. BKF explains it all very clearly in PoIMA. When you are relaxed breathing, properly aligned and pulsing your entire body from toes to spine to finger tips and skull when you do a particular move, the strong opening and closings as well as intent cause the chi flow to increase along certain merdians. If you pay attention, use listening skill on yourself, you will feel it happening unambiguously.

But Buddy's right, don't worry about your acupuncture meridians when doing Hsin Yi. It is enough to know that the movement is occurring naturally, sink your chi and just focus your intent and your will and do the fists. The shen fa will come of it's own.

Not that any of my thoughts matter because it's just internets. It is just mental masturbation without cameras, videos, witnesses and live bodies going at it and tires hitting pavement and all that good stuff.

There is no point to talking about this stuff anyway since we can't prove anything to anyone on a forum and we all know Qi does not exist simply because it has not been incontrovertibly proven in the reproducible laboratory experiment or test.

*just kidding*

I will keep sticking to the basics, the 16 part nei gung system and my sitting and dissolving practices while all the chi-does-not exist folks wait for the PhDs to prove it exists before they get serious about nei jia and cultivation. Good luck with that.

Whaa!
"SFJane", and Buddy are speaking to each other.
I can't keep my dick in my trousers for the excitment!

WOW!!!

LOL!!

Sure man, whatever you want.

I think you are motivating me to drop IMA and go back to BJJ now, hehe.

No waivers. Jesus I don't want to kill you bro. Tapping you out will be sufficient

I would wait and see if he actually answers me before going so far as to say we are speaking to each other

I have a lot of respect for the man from his posts. He studied with BKF a decade before I did. I just don't agree with him about the value of discussing these topics on a board. I consistently agree with him the only way to prove anything is to put your money where your mouth is in person. I just don't think that renders any internets discussion pointless. We simply can not all be in a room together to prove things one way or the other every time a contentious topic involving chi or martial arts or abilities comes up. Thus the boards give us that outlet.

The use of *prove it* in any sense online has only limited value as a trump card to use as the final analysis. Since we can not prove anything online, why even bother registering and posting about it? If you take that attitude from the beginning, we would not have these lovely chats.

Nice points. Good to see you here again. You have to excuse Pietro....he's Italian so he can't help it.

Craig

Jane,
I didn't say I didn't believe in it, only that I'm agnostic. I can do a lot of very interesting things. I want to be brief so here's my nutshell argument. Since you brought up santi... in anything I do with intention (even that is a loaded word, I could easily just say attention), I can (even without willing it so) make my palms red, make my fingertips sweat, cause my palms to slightly blister... I can move the soft tissue of my body, open and close the joints and internal cavities and vertebrae of my spine, move my organs, etc. All the things described in Bruce's method. Other things as well.
So, is this because I am having an experience with something called "qi? Or is it simply my conciousness directing my intention (yi) to these areas and the body (nervous and circulatory systems) responds. Why is there an intermediary called "qi?" I can readily prove these skills but nobody can prove "qi." Not only can I do it, but I can teach it others.

I can't move anyone with no touch without cooperation, cause newspapers to catch fire or break chopsticks with a dollar, levitate,...etc without trickery. And I don't believe anyone else can either.

Thanks for clarifying your position on qi Buddy.

I remember Ken Cohen write somewhere all true qigong Masters focus on Yi and not Qi. Yi leads qi. So your approach makes sense.

I guess qi is just an easy way of describing the life energy itself. Probably a simpler thing to say is Yi leads breath. Or even attention leads the breath.

So your basically just not into the mystical, mumbo jumbo, sorcery, Taoist Magic, Taoist Wizard, Shaman type of stuff at all and prefer to keep it as totally simple and free of mystical sounding stuff as possible, is this correct?

I actually do respect this position quite a bit. Except I still feel a cool, magnetic energy when I practice kunlun. And I can't very well call this cool magnetic feeling that seems to move my body on it's own(even when I resist I actually forcefully resisist sometimes in my practice and the kunlun literally pushes me to move) I can't call that attention or breath. And Yi doesn't sound right either. So if you think Kunlun is bs that is cool with me. But that Kunlun is derived from some esoteric source outside the scope of general understanding and transmitted to the student by a Master via some mysterious process that I don't know how it works is the only thing that makes sense to me at the moment.

As esoteric, Taoist wizard, mumbo jumbo sounding as that is

Cam,
While, like others, I am suspicious of Max's claims and downright deny anyone's ability to do the things I described in my previous post without substantial proof, I have not studied even a small amount of what is being called Kunlun. So, I'm not in any position to call the entire method BS.

Cool. Well, thanks for clarifying further then

Buddy,

This was a very interesting post. Thanks.

You seem to accept that your consciousness directs your intention (attention) and are willing to call it "yi". You have an experience in your body in response. Call it what you will. But you have an experience as a result of your intention/attention.

Why do you seem to assume that the experience is limited to, or even produced by the nervous and circulatory systems. Can you site any proof of that? (sorry couldn't resist , maybe you can).

I'm not being confrontational here, my experience to date is as you describe. Why do I call it qi? Because it's easier to discuss when I call it qi, rather than referring to it as "the experience I get from directing my yi (which is what I call the intention/attention of my consiousness)).

Michael in RI

Michael,
Yes, it IS easy to use the phrase. But it's a phrase from a different culture that is highly charged and intimates a somewhat mystical quality.
I don't assume anything, but I know that the nervous and circulatory systems can quite easily cause symptoms of heat, tingling, etc. Indeed, even if "qi" exists, I would postulate that is its interaction with these systems that causes the symptoms. For instance, light is not electricity, but is one of its effects, caused by it in some cases.

Buddy

.....................

Buddy,

I'm not sure that the mystical quality comes from the Chinese culture, or is a quality added by the west. I suspect the latter, but don't know. Based on the very little I've studied, it seems to me that taoists were more interested in describing the subjective functional qualities they experienced rather than some objective physical description that fits the western paradigm of science. Others are more qualified to chime in on this.

You write that you know that the body's "nervous and circulatory systems can quite easily cause symptoms of heat, tingling, etc.". Yes, but how do you know that it's limited to just the nervous and circulatory systems? And how do you know that those are the only mechanisms involved in your experiences. Is that just your assumption? I'm not implying it's mystical; I'm only suggesting that science may have not completely categorized the experience of life.

I just wonder if you really KNOW the mechanism for this phenomenon, and if so, how?

If it's not clear to you, following your lead, I'm trying to understand what you truly know, and what you simply believe.

For what's it's worth, I don't have any answers, I only know what I've experienced, and I'm content to give my experiences functional names that seem to resonate with those of other humans.

The discussion seems to have devolved into one of semantics, and a reticence to label a natural experience 'mystical'.

Michael in RI

Physical activity trains only wai chi or the external aspect of it (Yang). To cultivate nei chi (internal side, Yin) one must do what we all know in forums like this. Yoga and ZZ are the best exercises to cultivate "nei chi".

As far as qi goes - I think my most demonstrative experience was when a qigong healer pumped qi into me up against a big blockage. When she did this, I could actually feel it press up against the blockage and conform to its shape - as water would against a dam. Kinda like the liquid metal in T2.

So, I think qi is just as the ancient Chinese described it - some sort of distinct orgone energy - not some modern reinterpretation in Westerm biology.

But again, this is hard to prove objectively or over the net...

Yeah.

When Kan(Max's student) briefly waved his hands over me a couple months ago it literally felt like my front channel was going to explode.

I had no expectations at all. So what do you call that? A high level healer like Kan can effect your energy(for me it was unmistakeable..like an intense pressure literally pushing my blocks on my front channel down into the lower abdomen) and he didn't even touch me.

I just don't see how I could say there isn't something to the qi thing after that.

Michael,

"Based on the very little I've studied, it seems to me that taoists were more interested in describing the subjective functional qualities they experienced rather than some objective physical description that fits the western paradigm of science.

So, two things. Obviously they didn't have the western paradigm. But more importantly they decided not to speak plainly about things, which the western paradigm does (not taking sides except against the deliberate obfuscation idea). "Threading the nine pearls", "cinnabar field"...etc. These obscure references aren't much help.

"Yes, but how do you know that it's limited to just the nervous and circulatory systems?"

Please. I didn't say it was limited to that, those are your words.

"And how do you know that those are the only mechanisms involved in your experiences. Is that just your assumption?"

See above. Why would I consider that others are? Maybe it's the Pleadian grays that are doing it. I bow to Occam's razor here.

"I'm not implying it's mystical; I'm only suggesting that science may have not completely categorized the experience of life."

So why look for a deeper meaning when a completely standard one can be professed?

"I just wonder if you really KNOW the mechanism for this phenomenon, and if so, how?"

I never said I did. But beyond any evidence to the contrary, why not just go to the simplest and most obvious. I've never been to France but I'm willing to suspend my disbelief in it's non-existence.

"If it's not clear to you, following your lead, I'm trying to understand what you truly know, and what you simply believe."

Sorry, I don't quite get why this is confusing to you. Do you ever wonder why, when most of an atom is space and all things seem to consist of atoms, that you can slam your hand on a table?

I had an experience. I believe that the healer pumped qi into me, but all I really know is what I experienced. My experience was real. My interpretation of the experience may be incorrect.

My thesis is this: It's the experience that's important. Putting a name to the experience is fine to use as a shorthand notation to discuss with others who have similar experiences. We can agree on the experience. But naming it doesn't necessarily mean either of us understand the mechanism. From my perspective, naming an experience doesn't mean I understand the mechanism of the experience, any more than Reich understood the experience he named orgone. It's a name for an experience. When I focus on the name of the experience I tend to lose the experience itself. For me, I don't care about the name; it's the experience that's important to me.

Everything I practice is aimed at recreating experiences, as I follow the path of those who came before me and have passed on their waypoints to me. Masters of the way teach us to do This and we will experience That. Simple. So far, so good.

Michael in RI

From what I have heard the Pladeans and Greys are two seperate groups. One human and "good" the other insentient and "bad".

Just sayin'

Michael,
"My thesis is this: It's the experience that's important."

The problem with this idea is that we "experience" things in our dreams (or waking hours) that appear real. And our bodies (and minds) respond accordingly. We wake up anxious (or think that a mirage is real) or horny or pensive or whatever. Yet the experience wasn't real.

No, Buddy, you have it backwards. The experiences in our dreams or during our waking hours are real. It's the interpretation of those experiences that aren't real.

Interesting, but why do you suppose the first time I could really feel these things was when I began practicing taichi? Can you point me to some of these descriptions. Not trying to be fascitious, I am actually curious.

If chi is lead by Yi couldnt it all be just in the mind?

Cameron,

LOL You have no clue, lets just leave it cause we are never going to fight enough with your tough talk of fighting you are more suited for Kunlun level 1!!