Hi, what is the Taoist belief of what will happen after death? Is it karma and reincarnation like other eastern faiths?

Realisation that there is no death just change?

What is it that dies?

If an apple falls from the tree and rots does the tree die?
Trees apple, earth peoples.

All is not one?

Life and Death are inseparable - two sides of a coin. When death is done, life is there... when life is done, death is there... there is always life and death. I don't know if that's Daoist, I'm a not-really-anything'ist.


One of my favorite metaphors...

Well said Steve

Buddhist belief is that there is always change and as such life is a continuum of cyclic changes according to karma. Very similar to Taoism.

Hey guys,

Looks like Taoist is very Buddhist like but just read somewhere that the goal of a Taoist is to gain immortality. How is this possible?? Is it immortality in the sense of Enlightenment/Nirvana or an actual immortal physical human being?

By the realisation that there is no death, just change. With this realisation you are 'immortal'. There is nothing that dies when you see it is all from the same dao. If a leaf falls from the tree and rots, does the tree die?

People get a little confused with that one and go off and study all sorts of weird and wonderful practices in the hope of living forever. I don't want to live forever. It would be very boring as human form is quite limiting. Two arms, two legs, mouth etc. Imagine that for eternity.

Didn't the first emperor of China die because he was looking for immortality? He was drinking mercury that sent him bonkers and eventually killed him.

To seek immortality will only cause you pain and suffering. Its like swimming against the tide. All that struggle for nothing. Realise you will die. Then ask what is 'you'? And what is it that actually dies? What are you doing here and why? If you can ask this and get an answer then hopefully you can help others in this world too.

It is much better than chasing your own tail.

Taoist, Buddhist, Christian, Moslem, at the very heart they are all the same. Don't confuse them as different. The prophets were sages no different from lao tsu and boddhidarma. Just their teachings were misunderstood.

Yes, very true what you said. But what differentiates Buddhism from the rest is that in the former there is not such thing as an immortal soul. Everything is subjected to change and that includes spiritual energy.

We store imprints of previous lives especially when it was rich spiritually and we will keep growing and moving on until our spirits are ready to break the law of karma. That's what the Taoists refer to as immortality. Buddhism calls it Nirvana.

Physical immortality is a hindrance.

I'm glad that this question has been posed.

IMO, every human being should read The Tibetan Book of the Dead by W.Y. Evans-Wentz. Were it only that every human being knew of its existence...alas. For those that do, the wise will immediately make it a high priority to read it at the earliest opportunity. Again, IMO.

Much subconscious and intuitive knowledge is articulated therein. Including the answer to the posed question.

I read that book to understand what happened to me when I had my own encounter with the other side. It was very useful and I too recommend this book to anyone.

I've picked it up a few times in the bookstore, but never bought it I already have too many books open! I'll get it eventually though...it does look very intriguing.

No need to buy anything. As anything truly spiritual free for everyone:

http://www.summum.us/mummification/tbotd/


Enjoy.

The Tibetan Book of the Dead is a good book, but what about actual Taoist views of death? My parents had to put down their little dog yesterday.

A little poodle / silky terry cross called Anda over 17yrs old, I miss her

And I did the normal, “Well I’m sure she is in a better place, and not suffering anymore” (at least that part is true) But really, I don’t know what happened to her or what those left behind can / should do.

As there are many varieties of Taoism, there are many Taoist views about death, and what happens to a person after he dies. Some Taoists believe in literal immortality, while others gain "immortality" by overcoming the fear of death.

Intertwined with religious Taoism are a lot of Chinese folk beliefs with numerous heavens and hells, but for a Westerner, clinging to these beliefs is a dead end, and the pun is intended.

She is in the Yin world now waiting for her new incarnation. Her individuality as Anda is gone, it will be a new being.

Nothing you can do just meditate in the truth of suffering and attachment.

(not focusing on the "dog" part)

Actually can't I transfer merit for 40 days? I think that one is a Buddhist practice.

Yes Tibetan. But personally I don't think one can change someone else's karma. It's a universal act of justice and balance. How can an individual interfere with something like that?

Regards.

Even if my life-after-death theory is 100% spot on, I still don't know much.

The people who have had near death experiences whether through literally dying or just spiritually dying definitely have a leg up on the situation. I've read that they are also calmer in general about this life and have distinctive brain wave patterns as well as being more accepting of death.

Tune into a person or an animal who has croaked and you'll find a very cheerful vibe. Even from a young age, I've found funerals to be extremely funny where people assume that death is a bad thing but the actual dead guy's vibe is quite high and jolly.

It is certainly more respectful to celebrate their life than morn their death.

I have always found that selfish. We morn because they are gone and we cant see them. You see us crying because our self interest cannot be fulfilled. We can't have more time with them.

If we celebrated their life. We would celebrate their achievements and contributions to the world. A celebration of their life not a morning of our loss.

I have always found mourning to be a selfish act. 'I didn't do this, or say that' borne out of our guilt for the mistreatment we served whilst they were alive. Speaking to people after funerals it is normally one great act of contrition and self interest that they mourn.

For me death is as natural as taking a shit or being born. Yes I feel sorrow when a loved one dies but I know that to hold on will cause great pain. So I let go and celebrate and remember the joy of the time we spent together. Thankful for those precious moments. Because I know too that I will eventually die and I hope people celebrate my life and remember me fondly rather than mourn.

Taoist idea about life and death is quite different from other religions. Without exception, all other religions believe in life after death, ie , some kind of spiritual eternity ; Taoist masters also believe in spiritual eternity, but there is one crucial difference : apart from it , they also believe in physical, earthly eternity .

How ? The secret of it is : qi .They know how to initiate and manipulate it .[size=6][font=Book Antiqua]

It seems to me that Taoism does not try to sugar coat the truth or reassure those left behind in morning as much as other religions.
What you were before you were born may well continue on. But it seems that death really is the end for the “ego” / “sense of self” i.e. way I think of myself as “Mal” or the personality of the dog I called “Anda” is erased by death and only remains in the thoughts of those left behind.

MASTERforge, I'm very positively impressed with your recent contributions to the Forum. Thank you. Perhaps I've not been paying attention. I certainly look forward to your further contributions.

I have recently gone through one of the more shocking events in my life...

A friend of mine tried to kill himself with a large butcher-knife to the chest last Tuesday morning.

I was outside when he came to the door and said "I want to die"...to me and a neighbor -who I was happily talking with about the super-bowl at the time...with the knife in his chest already.

I told him not to move and leapt to stop him from pulling out the knife. I had to yell at the neighbor a few times to get him off his knees and call 911

Of course when a cop showed up he went for his gun 'cause there was a guy with a knife in his chest being restrained by another guy-(me)... I yelled at thim to get the medical unit and then we picked up my friend wrapped him in gauze and got him in the ambulance...

The neighbor gave me a beer to chug and the cops told me I had saved his life....
I feel as if I was placed near him for that "catch" to keep him alive...Did I interfere with his kharma? I acted as I thought best for him... He is alive and in hospital for treatment that will eventually be mostly psychological...

I sometimes think of him as someone who's monkey mind rules them mercilessly...but he has moments of real joy yet to come...

I did wonder for a moment if that is what he wanted ... he did try to kill himself and I stopped him from completing the act. I did it with little thought but to save his life, without any thought that that would be a bad idea...

One can influence another's Karma to a degree, yet that outcome is dependent upon the conditions of the"receiver's mind and the causes within it. For example, if one has the causes to die, and yet they come to you, they also had the causes to be "saved".

We can't change the whole mind of the being, but can influence it. Because the being would hear, see us, speak with us, the seeds of the causes we are influencing already are part of their mind. Now it is how much is put into the cultivating of those causes to realize the fruit of it.

If we all couldn't influence each other's karma, then we would have no thoughts about each other at all, meaning we would not feel frustrated by someone, loving towards another, anger towards another, etc. There would be no afflictions in the mind of self, others, ego.

Peace and Blessings,
Lin

There were examples in The Magus of Strovolos of Daskalos taking on other people's stuff. Literally, like he'd get the diseased leg. It is possible. But it was no picnic.

But I think for ordinary folks like us, you can't change much about other people's karma unless you're willing to share it by getting that involved with them.

Wow Wayfarer, that would have been full on. At least your friend went to someone who was able to help him. Apparently the reason most male suicides are fatalities rather than attempts is that males tend to chose methods and locations where help would not be available, till it’s too late.

Anyone have any more Taoist musings on death? That Chang Tzu quote is about the only one I can find dealing with morning / death. Usually I resort to Buddhism and karma to “help” explain death.

Perhaps it was his karma for yu to do as you did.
If he was serious he would have stayed in his apartment and died.

A very raw situation you encountered wayfarer, i hope the best for your friend and evenly for you as i can understand experiencing such a drastic unfortunate event can come as a shock.



With a knife plunged in the chest it looks pretty serieus allready. I had the same thought as you, its possible karma lead to wayfarer being at the right time at the right (wrong) moment. Wayfarer did the right thing to do instinctively.

Not exactly taoist, but I'd strongly recommend this. But being from the same part of the world, you may have your own ideas about him....

I recently tracked down an old pal of mine and visited him in the psych ward yesterday. He's not crazy, but he did attempt suicide. I've been "what iffing" a fair amount since that visit, as he and I weren't on speaking terms when he tried for the exit door. Maybe I could have helped during that time??? The reason we weren't speaking is that he had been rude to me which drove me off. But I knew that he was a charity case kind of a situation and perhaps I shouldn't have been so fickle.

This morning I got a mass email about a professor serving coffee in a variety of mugs... some nice, some not so nice and all the students eyeing each other's mugs when the professor said that the whole point is to enjoy the coffee and not worry so much about the mug and he closed with: "Worry looks around, sorrow looks back, but faith looks up."

I can tune into each of those perspectives and I think the truest and most beneficial perspective is that of faith that all things will work out fine in the end and even are working out fine in the here and now too.

I can feel that that *is* the ultimate truth, but it's a slippery one at times...

Thanks for the feed-back gang... I am still a wee bit shook by the experience. Some of our mutual friends have said thanks to me and seem to think I was somehow "heroic" in my keeping him from finishing the job...

I guess it was just a mysterious happenstance or devine will or somesuch (dumb luck)...that had me able to deal with the event- many folks may not know to leave any foriegn object in a person until taken to a hospital...

I think it true, that if he really wanted to die he would have just waited awhile or pulled the knife before coming down the stairs with it in his freaking chest!!! He seemed only to want to shock (cry for help) and rely on me to pull him through...

But he did keep saying he wanted to die, and he clearly stated that he had stabbed himself and not fallen on the blade- (which also finally convinced the cops that I didn't stab him, along with the neighbor's statement that my self-destructive pal came to the door-pre-stabbed...) their first impulse was to see a victim/perp situation when confronted by a guy with a big knife in his chest, and someone else hunkered over the stabee & holding his arms to restrain his movement...

So he was careful in a way... it seems he didn't want to harm anyone else in his attempt on his own life...
So, I do feel/believe that I did the right thing... Only this thread started me wondering about the whole event in a different light as it were...

I do attribute my calmness to whatever inner peace I have achieved in my meditation/kungfu practices, I remained sort of aware and yet a bit detached as the event unfolded, I put my own repulsion aside and acted as swiftly as I could. I just hope he lives to become a MUCH happier fella! It will not be easy for him now and he will need a lot of care and compassion.

you did a brave thing, yet I have mixed feelings about it myself.

he did not want to die though, not really, he wanted to shock people into forcing attention on himself. the highest sign of the supremely selfish and incomplete personality is the person that makes other people have to deal with them. he does need help. he needs love and clearly is an entire universe away from loving himself or life.

the problem with how we treat lost and broken people that demand our attention by doing things like visiting people to tell them you want to die with a knife in your chest is that their next stop in life will be mostly likely, biological psychiatry.

there are worse things than death. such being only half alive. if he had had died, he would not longer be in pain. at least not until the wheel resets his ass when he incarnates again and has to go through it all over.

but subjectively speaking, he would have escaped the burden of corporeal existence short term and been free.

in all likelihood by now he has a mental health diagnoses and is most likely under the influence of emotion,mind and chi damaging medications toxic to the body that will render him incapable of feeling or thinking about the nature of the problems that led to stabbing himself in the first place.

these drugs will mask the symptoms and for the entire duration of his experience with them, he will truly no longer be himself but an artificial personality if he ever gets off psych meds, his old suicidal self will still be there.

the reasons people want to die have to do to love or a lack of it
or
a lack of a reason to live or a meaning to life.

or all of them

there is no therapy no drug that can give you those things

you have to scale your existence back to the beginning and find yourself and who you are and what you want

in partaking in psychiatry you distort your true self and move further and further away from that understanding

like i said

there is worse things than death

What are the most common methods of suicide?

Firearms are the most commonly used method of suicide for men and women, accounting for 60 percent of all suicides. Nearly 80 percent of all firearm suicides are committed by white males. The second most common method for men is hanging; for women, the second most common method is self-poisoning including drug overdose. The presence of a firearm in the home has been found to be an independent, additional risk factor for suicide. Thus, when a family member or health care provider is faced with an individual at risk for suicide, they should make sure that firearms are removed from the home.

Why do men commit suicide more often than women do?

More than four times as many men as women die by suicide; but women attempt suicide more often during their lives than do men, and women report higher rates of depression. Several explanations have been offered: a) Completed suicide is associated with aggressive behavior that is more common in men, and which may in turn be related to some of the biological differences identified in suicidality. Men and women use different suicide methods. Women in all countries are more likely to ingest poisons than men. In countries where the poisons are highly lethal and/or where treatment resources scarce, rescue is rare and hence female suicides outnumber males. More research is needed on the social-cultural factors that may protect women from completing suicide, and how to encourage men to recognize and seek treatment for their distress, instead of resorting to suicide.

women frequently overestimate the toxic potential of the drugs we overdose with while underestimating our bodies ability to cope with poisoning

many kinds of poisons and overdoses can be remedied or reversed through modern medicine especially if they are caught in time.

True.

I don't have a lot of sympathy for people that suicide successfully, as you said it is a very selfish way to cry for help. (Sorry for thinking my Australian statistics on mortality rates might be the same globally) Sometimes death may actually be the best thing for that “individual” But I tend to care more about the repercussions and pain inflicted on the family and friends left behind to pick up the pieces. Stoping the person from killing themselves lessens / reduces the suffering of the friends and family, so I think it’s worth it regardless of the cost to the person attempting suicide.