If you ever achieved enlightenment, how would you know you hadn't simply gone insane?

I don't think it would be possible to make that distinction unless you had the ability to understand and control reality at a higher level than non enlightened "normal people".

I guess more than anything, I seek power as a litmus test for insanity. If you claim enlightenment and cannot back it up with a few fireworks your no better than your local time traveling, alien humping, drunken homeless bum.

As a matter of fact stating you have achieved enlightenment is enough for them to lock you away for a a few weeks in a mental home until your unenlightened again.


I'm sorry I just don't seeing a modern day Buddha allowing some punks to straight jacket them, I just don't think he or she would put up that.

A lot of people here criticize those who seek power, and refer to them as megalomaniacs and juveniles etc, but there are some of us who only want power to liberate ourselves. A few of us realize this world isn't real and we don't seek to control a dream.

Most people here in the west look weird when you even talk about power in the sence you do. For them power is having alot of property and goods and having control and influence over people, often in there job.

There's a chance when you claim to be enlightend you get put in the nuthouse, yeh lol. Thats why that even when you have strong inner power its not wise to demonstrate it recklessly, it can create distance between you and the people you actually wonna help.

I dont think someone that is enlightend has the need to prove this to anyone, isnt that the thing they transcended ? I dont think enlightenment can be measured by how much volt you can produce for example, more about how kind, compassionate you are and how much insight you have.. people notice that from themselves and will get strenght out of it.

I seek healingpower and wisdom to go with it, anyone got any spare ?

Now for health we have to work, and for wisdom we have to pray and deserve it.
It's said that when we ask God for wisdom, he sents problems to us, because solving them makes us more wise.
I often think that there are other people behind the masters of today, people of much more power and wisdom, that choose to remain in anonimity, and hire others to do their jobs and act as masters - it would only fit daoist philosophy.
It seems that at least a couple of them died or dissapeared suddently without a trace, but in fact they can still be around

Hey Little one, for our health we have to work hard and also if we wonna heal others. Logically its hard to heal others when you cant even heal yourself

About the masters it sounds a bit mysterious, unknown powerfull sources behind todays masters.

You mean that current powerfull masters let there job be done by others so they can remain and act in the background (influencing others from the background or self cultivating in peace) ? or even further that certain masters get influenced by powerfull people via the spiritual plane ? the last may sound weird yeh but you know what i mean.

I dunno yust asking

Diddo on your comment!

I don't think a so called "enlightened" person will ever claim that they are "enlightened" or really ever know they are however will just go through a change and accept it.

I think enlightment can be attained however in many levels. Who knows?

your TAO IS YOUR TAO and no one elses.

Wudangspirit

You practice qigong? Meditation? Cultivation? Do you understand why it's called inner work? What sort of proof are you looking for?

From my experience you have it backwards my friend. Don't worry the least bit about enlightenment driving you mad. Enlightenment is a simplification. You know how when you understand how to do something it's easy, obvious, effortless? Enlightenment is less noise. Less crazy.

Power on the other hand could well land you in the madhouse if you your enlightenment doesn't out pace it. Take martial power too far and you can become cold, callous, arrogant and much worse. Take psychic power too far and you'll wind up spending more time conversing with spirits, masters, angels, and immortals, and loose touch with this side of life. You need enlightenment to temper these. Otherwise power corrupts.

But you're just looking for proof right? Let me ask: is this proof for you or for other people?

Yes I know exactly how it sounds. It sounds like I want power to show off, gain material wealth, or for martial purposes. I don't.

I want out of this reality. Nothing here is real, its a dream, I want out of it as soon as possible.

The reason I seek power is so I can know personally I am not delusional or insane if I ever achieved enlightenment.

In 2005 you see I was experimenting with gamma brainwave entrainment, I had read several studies about Buddhist monks with 50,000 hours+ meditational experience. The amplitude and synchrony of their gamma waves were nothing like researchers had ever seen. Gamma waves are intimately related to consciousness itself, a brief burst of gamma activity is seen during an AHA! Eureka moment. Gamma waves also completely disappear under general anesthesia.

I meditated using gamma entrainment at 42hz for about a week before reality began to de-cohere around me.
Too many coincidences to mention, some things just so insane no one would even believe me.
During this time my entire world view changed, and I realized a lot about the nature of reality.

Eventually I got to a point where I discovered I had more than one body, and there were more layers of reality, other worlds just like our own, very similar. I could shift my consciousness between them. Sometimes my awareness got stuck in multiple realities at once, listening to multiple conversations. Sometimes one limb was stuck in one reality and unavailable in another, trying to remember how to remain whole in one singular reality was impossible.


I know what that feels like.


I am aware this was viewed by outside observers as hallucinatory, I had no real power to prove anything, and wound up getting a spinal tap against my will, and being committed for a few weeks.


This isn't something I am proud of but I hope it explains why I want power. To know I am not insane if I ever achieve enlightenment. I want this power to break the chains of rebirth. I want this power to help others who seek the same. It's really as simple as that.

There is no need of a way out! Don't you see that a way out is also part of the dream?
- Sri Nisargadatta Maharaj

Now, it sounds like you've already got power, overloaded in fact, you just got to ground it! Sounds to me like you should be doing a little more work to get into this reality rather than wanting out of it. It is real here you know. Just as real as the other realities anyway.

You want my advice? You take up some practices that ground you here. Exercise. Martial Arts, Taiji, sports, weightlifting, pick the one you like because developing the body is the best way to ground. And then eat well. And during those activities take stock of the relationships in your life. Gratitude is grounding. Family, friends, pets, romance, the natural world, yourself.

Give the upper dantian/upper chakras some time to cool down.

Well done on the psychonaut work though. The community needs experiences, good and bad, at just how cultivation and technology can mix together.

Perhaps I could have worded it better, I seek to exist eternally as formless awareness. No memories, no ego, no language, no thoughts, just awareness of voidness. I do not wish to ever be reborn into a phenomenal reality.

mwight, I commend you in your search. Please continue to share

I have no real power yet unfortunately. Any ability I may have can only manifest after about 3-4 hours of deep trance. I am not even finished with filling my lower dantein (level 1), So please don't think I am claiming I currently have any real power, I don't.

I will be leaving this year to do just as you suggest. I am leaving on a 5 year meditation retreat, to be in solitude, and focus on my training. I also agree with you on the development of the physical body and eating as the best grounding methods.

You previously said this reality is not real. You cannot be reborn into something which doesn't exist in the first place. Something eternal have no end and no beginning. You can therefore not become an eternal formless awareness (that would imply that it has a beginning and would hence not be eternal). You must already be this formless eternal awareness. It seems like you seek what you already are and want out from something you admit doesn't exist.

All I'm saying is it sounds like you've got enough power flowing that you're overloading the circuitry. And 3-4 hours of deep trance is quite an achievement. Is this in sitting meditation without the gamma waves? If so, highly achieved people generally don't sit more than 4 hours in full -lotus at a time unless they have a special reason to do so. They say more than 2 hours of thoughtlessness gets you noticed in the universe.

天 Heaven; Consciousness; leaves, flowers, fruits
人 Human; Emotion; trunk, branches, bark
地 Earth; Body; seed, roots, shoots

This is an important breakdown in daoist cultivation. You're too top heavy. If that's the case balance is found by developing down. Improve your relationship on the human and earth levels. Solitude may not be the best medicine.

I appreciate all the advice, but I think were aiming for two different goals. My goal is not to live a happy life, and to have better personal relations, its to transcend this world. There are a lot of people and a lot of paths, and this is mine.

Yes more than two hours does get you noticed, and thats exactly what I am aiming for, eventually I would like to be able to spend 10 hours a day in trance or more, leaving time to eat, exercise, shower. etc.

The deeper the trance the better, I hope to master leaving my body at will as to seek out teachers, and information. I have been out of my body a few times, each time for a slightly longer period, doing qigong/neigong while out of body also holds amazing potential.

You guys can continue your grounded lifestyles, and work on building better interpersonal relationships, be better people, work at local charities, and honestly it isn't going to do anything to help you awaken into a higher level of consciousness. Sure it will make you a better person, of that I am certain.

The problem is I don't want to be a better person. I don't even want to be a person. I don't want to be anything. It's really that simple. Perhaps this mode of thought is in and of itself insane, but its what I want, and its what I am seeking.

I feel that you are just able to define your path and that is a good thing. Not everyone is on the same path, as you said. Some people can accept that (as you can) others can not.

Then you need to find out whether you got the neccesary talent to do so. Around 20% of the population got chi recognition. 2% got enough chi recognition to get anywhere with meditation and trances. Then you have all kinds of talent level. 1 in 100 000, 1 in 100 0000 etc etc. To leave your body you have to lower your brain waves to below delta. At an EEG there is a flat line when you reach it. Then your astral body that is integrated with your nervous system separates from it and you get a genuine NDE. This requires great talent and might even then take years to learn. You might even accidently kill yourself by shutting down your brain.

So it comes down to whether you got enough talent. Not everyone are elite hockey players even if they practise 10 hours a day. It also requires talent. It is the same with trance work!

Remember that REM-sleep OOBES are not real out of body experiences. Those are just realistic dreams.

I think we have the same aim. But, well, a tall tree needs deep roots. Agreed? The higher you want to go, the bigger your foundation needs to be. I'm not saying you should be healthy, emotionally balanced, and otherwise grounded just to lead a happy life. I'm saying it because the other option is unbalanced, difficult, and invites disaster. A balanced life is the root.

The thing is, awakening is everything and everywhere. The profound universe is at work when you do daily activities just the same as when you're in meditation. The difference is your state of mind. There's a reason your conscious came here and I'm guessing it's not just to run back into being formless awareness. Plenty of time for that when you're dead. In the mean time, you've got a life and that's a lucky thing, best use well while you're here.

Here's one translation of Daodejing chapter 36:

If you want to shrink something,
you must first allow it to expand.
If you want to get rid of something,
you must first allow it to flourish.
If you want to take something,
you must first allow it to be given.
This is called the subtle perception
of the way things are.

The soft overcomes the hard.
The slow overcomes the fast.
Let your workings remain a mystery.
Just show people the results.

Let me ask you is a movie on a DVD real? The movie itself is just 1's and 0's in a long string. The laser of your dvd player reads this string and interprets them and produces a signal which is sent to your TV.

If you watch this movie and suspend your disbelief for a while you will forget about your life, your problems, your very existence even if you are deeply enthralled enough by it.

But... The movie itself has no more reality than does a painting.

This is what I am getting at: This life we're living is no more real than is a DVD. We have built up this character, and identified with them, and we falsely believe thats who and what we are.


The world, indeed, is like a dream and the treasures of the world are an alluring mirage! Like the apparent distances in a picture, things have no reality in themselves, but they are like heat haze.
-Buddha

The way we fundamentally view the universe is wrong, just our ancestors believed the earth was flat and the sun revolved around us. Time as we know it does not exist, instead past and future are part of a solid whole of which we only experience the present moment. I liken this to how a dvd works, the laser (your consciousness) reads the data from the disc (your life) resulting in the image being played on the screen (your mind).

What we call the past, the present, and future are apart of a solid object. What moves through this object from past into the future is our point of consciousness. The world around us is still, what is moving is our consciousness, not the world.


It is my observation that we do indeed live in a multiverse, and not a singular universe. This is also the most accepted interpretations of Quantum Mechanics. It is called the MWI (Many Worlds Interpretation), Hawking is one of the most prominent subscribers to this interpretation.


All of these seemingly separate universes, are in fact apart of a larger whole. We navigate through them every moment we are aware. We make choices, decisions, actions, have certain thoughts, etc.. etc.. This is the process of navigating through this field of infinite possibilities.


Also all these seemingly separate worlds are apart of the same whole I call infinity, everything that is was or could be.


I like this analogy:

When you download a song,movie,book, etc off the internet, it is a large binary number. It is an actual number between one, and infinity. Granted its a very large number maybe even exceeding a trillion digits. Far longer than any of us could really fathom, but the fact remains it is an actual number that exists between one and infinity.

I have a hard time getting people to grasp that songs exist before we create them, or books exist before we write them, or movies exist before we record them,but its true. They exist in digital terms as large numbers, somewhere between one and infinity. Actual numbers just as real as 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, etc.

You see that is how I view this world, and all the other possible worlds, and all their possible histories, presents, and futures. They are but large possible arrangements of matter and energy, like works of art, like songs, like movies.

In my mind at least there is nothing new that can ever be thought, done, or witnessed. If it is possible it has already occurred, and is simply waiting to be uncovered. There was a Greek Sculptor once who claimed he didn't carve anything, his sculptures were already there inside the rock, he merely helped them out.

Our world is merely one possible world carved out of infinity, and eternity. One possibility which we could attach a mathematical number to represent. Just like digital song, movie, or book. I argue that if this is the way the universe (or rather multiverse) is then it is indeed illusory.

But Illusory doesn't mean that it isn't real or valid to your experience. Most certainly you can download a movie, a song, or a book off the internet and enjoy it. It is real to your experience, and perception.

I don't believe there is any fundamental building block, all physical particles are divisible ad infinitum, and the reality we see around is electric, holographic, and fractal-ic. All is caused by the interaction of various waveforms giving rise to our observable universe, and as such is illusory. Perhaps thats an incorrect view, but it rings true at a deep level within me. Perhaps if there is something real about all of this, its our experience.



______________________________________________________________________________




I don't mean to be argumentative, but I believe everyone with enough determination and practice can achieve a true obe. It is possible I just had hyper real dreams, but seeing as I was able to read perfectly and had full control over the mathematical and logical side of my brain I have to wonder.

Bingo.

I don't mean to be argumentative, but i belive everyone with enough determination and practise can be as good ice hockey player as Wayne Gretzky. Do you see the flaws with that kind of argumentation? Different levels of talent does exist! Not many people can achieve a true obe even with great practise and determination.

Dreams does not have to lower your cognitive functions as proved in the following scientific study: http://lucidity.com/slbbs/

According to taoist master Mantak Chia it takes 20-30 years to learn to get real obes if you got talent.

I agree with you, any type of soft practice must be balanced with hard practice. The school I am in requires a strong physical body also, to master. I lift weights and ride a bike to work when it is warm. I eat well, I think. I am about 30lbs overweight but I am strong as an ox, and aerobically fit. In real life I try be a kind person. I donate my time to fix computers for people, and such.



I don't really talk about my deepest thoughts on life, the universe and everything with the people I know in real life, The people I know do not care about rebirth, or becoming enlightened, they only want to eat drink and be merry. I find it better just to keep such things to myself, but here in these forums I share them with the community because I feel like someone else might feel the same way as I do and get some use out of them.

I am sure if you met me in real life you would never even think "wow this dude is batshit insane, chasing after supernatural power to break free of reincarnation." you would probably just think I was a boring computer geek hermit who prefers to stay at home on Friday night.

If you want a very detailed piece of analysis from someone who has experienced both insanity and enlightenment, do check out this thread and follow the link to the blook.

Thing is, and this is just my opinion, you can never ever be absolutely sure you're not insane. But you can establish whether you're at peace or not.

Sure if you sit on the sofa and eat popcorn your never going to be a professional athlete.


I have made the seemingly impossible manifest in my life, when I decided to go to war for it. Burn your bridges and smash your cooking pots, and stake your very life upon the outcome of the battle. Thats what it takes.

It all revolves around your desire, and your will and resolve to accomplish it. If you want something you must stake all upon it, and dedicate your every waking moment and soul even to accomplish it.

You have to make it your life's dream, you sole purpose for existing. Eat it, breath it, sleep it. Train, study strategies, and never give up. A complete and total immersion in your goal, its war.



Did you know Einstein was an idiot as a child. No really! he was. He was a borderline retarded child. When he was younger he learned to live inside his imagination, and create a virtual world in which to play. He stayed in this state and learned to use this mode of visual thinking to intuitive come up with solutions with problems. He was able to master both hemispheres of his brain and dream up all his theories.

I highly recommend a book called the Einstein Factor Written by Win Wenger. It goes into the meditation Einstein used to come up with all his theories.


Einstein used deep trance work, he would sit in a chair and hold two rocks one in either hand. If he fell asleep he dropped the rocks and woke up to write down what solution he had worked out with his dream.

He remarked he flew out of his body into space to observe, and could feel the gravity waves bending the fabric of space and time and causing the flow of light to be bent around very mass dense objects.
We have proven this to occur and call it gravitational lensing.

He also realized that time flows at different rates for different observers, certain things effect the flow of time locally like dense gravitational feeds or traveling near the speed of light. If you were hovering outside a black hole, or traveling near the speed of light for you time outside would seem to speed up, and from outside you would appear to slow down.

He also realized that all matter is really energy condensed.

This was a complete revolution in physics because until then it was believed time flowed the same for all observers.


All of these observations came from intuitive realizations during an OBE, whether it be a "true" or pseudo obe it doesn't matter. There is truth to be had here, and thats where I want to be.


Tesla one of the greatest minds of all time was able to enter a world within his own mind at any moment, and test inventions and ideas in a mental workshop which was just as real as real life. He had many issues with his sanity due to this advanced ability.


Edgar Cayce, Andrew Carnegie, all of these people tapped into this.


If you don't think its possible, and that your either born with it or your not thats fine. I don't feel the same way. Maybe I am just a dreamer, even if I never reach my goal I am going to give it all I have.

Very cool Ian, very cool. I first started meditating with vipassana and greatly informed my practice of neigong to this point. Hmmm, I wonder if they can be practiced concurrently...

---

And mwight I don't think you're insane. I've been on both sides of this debate. I was taking off like a rocket ship for better and worse before I got to China and was knocked out with some old wisdom. Slow is fast, fast is slow. Very traditional, conservative, pragmatic; I know. But I have definitely gotten benefit through learning not to rush for the result. Anyway, you've heard enough of my opinion. Do your dao. Right hand, left hand, follow a plan or make one up as you go. Everything works itself out.

On an academic note though. I'm not familiar with OBE's myself but I'm told in the context of my school's cultivation there are two types. One path is ghost immortal (literal translation), the other is the way of the sage, actualized person, real person. They say ghost immortal practice gives you OBEs without form, the other path gives you OBEs that can take form. So one is just a yang projection, the other is both yang and yin. The first path takes much less time but if you follow it its practice prevents practicing the other path. To practice merged yin and yang projection takes longer but is the real secret to immaterial immortality.

I have no personal experience on the matter so as far as I know right now it's just a very interesting possibility.

Your chasing your own tail

Your close, nearly there, almost.

You need to work harder, harder more, still more harder. Chase it. There it is, oh now its gone! Its back, oh there is goes again.

15, 20, no 30 years just sitting and meditating. No standing, can't get it when your standing
Chase it up a mountain and become a recluse, is it there? No its gone again!

Go to a monastery and seek the answers of a master. Does he have it? If he does he's not telling!

Find yourself in India
seek the dao in china
look for satori in Japan

Read the books, get the dvd's do they give it to you? No? Then where is it?

Who and what is it exactly that you are trying to escape?
What exactly are you trying to escape from?
Where do you think you would go to?
Why would it be any different from where you are now?

How far or how hard do you have to work to get it?

How much will you punish yourself before you become exhausted and give up?

The book of the 'ten bulls' is close but not quite. It just stinks of Zen

I was in the same paradigm as you, searching for something that was already there (I still am but my views on this have shifted to a level of peace in either outcome). A friend told me a proverb that went like this...

there is a story about an enlightened peasant in india. someone asked her what she was "doing" now that she was self-realized. she said that before she woke up every morning and carried pales of water to and from the river. now, she still wakes up every morning and carries pales of water to and from the river.

It seems like you posted this to convince us of your point...why would you do this? because you aren't fully convinced of it yourself. I think you know fundamentally that your current views on finding enlightenment are only deepening yourself in Samsara. I think you posted this so that we could make the argument you want to make for yourself, for you, and so that you would come to terms with the idea that you need to make peace with the illusion, in order to escape it. just an idea, if that made any sense at all...

How many truly enlightened people exist in the world today? If the stories are true Wang Li Ping, and a handful of others. Maybe 60 to 100 people out of 6.6 Billion, those are really bad odds. Even the Dali Lama admits he is not enlightened. Something isn't working, surely there should be more enlightened and ascended beings in our ranks if our current teachings were sufficient.

I am doing my absolute best to research the most advanced and esoteric systems passed down by masters who have real power, and figure out what they have in common, what works and what doesn't. This seems to be a logical approach. So far I have found 3 masters with actual demonstrable power and all of them claim it is something which anyone can develop, but I digress.


I am aware I might be wrong, but this is the conclusion I have drawn logically from all my research. I think above all else Buddha stressed logical and rational thinking in his teachings. i.e. if it doesn't agree with your reason don't believe it, no matter even if I said it. I am paraphrasing but you get the point.

Accepting a person can be truly enlightened without some deeper understanding and control of the dream, is one such thing that disagrees with my reason.

If a person came to me claiming they were enlightened, I would require proof to validate such a claim. I don't care how peaceful and blissed out they were. I don't care if they achieved true non-dual awareness. I don't care if they spoke like a pansy and threw flowers at me. That is just common sense to me. I don't think it is rational to accept such an assertion without some proof.

My view of enlightenment, and ascension, are not in keeping with the "chop wood, carry water" analogy. Perhaps what I am looking for will only be realized by technological advancement and not through spiritual searching. A person carrying water and chopping wood and claiming to be enlightened, is in my opinion either in a state of true non-dual awareness, or delusion, and neither of those things really constitute what I think of as enlightenment.
If a person were fully enlightened, they would be awake, aware of the dream and eventually able to control it in ways which would manifest beyond most peoples comprehension. If the stories about wang li ping are true this is what I assume a modern day Buddha would be like.

Perhaps what I am seeking isn't really enlightenment at all. Perhaps its scientific apotheosis: a correct, complete, and total understanding of reality, the universe and all its functions, is more what I am searching for. Einstein said he wanted to know God's thoughts. I totally relate to his quest, and that is more in line with my idea of enlightenment.

But then again enlightenment is only secondary to my goal of never being reborn. If this means existing as a spirit eternally, thats fine. If it means a state of total non existence that is fine also. Right now that is my main goal, everything else is just icing.

All that has been stated here is merely my opinion, and I am certain it can be wrong. I have been wrong about a lot of things in my life.

I seek power to awaken, and transcend this reality. I seek power to help heal and teach others, and make the world a better place. I view these things as morally correct uses of power.

I am not trying to tell you you are wrong if you disagree with me. As to why I posted this in the first place, I don't really know. Sometimes I like just speaking my mind, and seeing what others think. Is that a bad thing? I don't feel I really need to convince you, if you disagree with me thats your prerogative. I'm not here to sell you on my view of things, I am just throwing it out there.

Ian,

Thank you for your wonderful commendation. I will be sure to read it soon. Thank you.
if you have any more reccomendation similar to this one please send them my way.

Interesting, No it is not a bad thing to speak your mind. I was just throwing out an idea. keep in mind that if someone has an understanding of reality and is able to control it they probably see the uselessness in using and manipulating it, in playing the game of the ego which says that the world isn't in perfect cosmic order already. Hence the water pail story. She was already doing what the cosmos asked her to do, any judgement of any action is simply ego.

I can see that, if thats what I was supposed to do I guess I would do it also. But I wouldn't expect someone else to seriously believe I was enlightened unless I could show them for certain I was. Thats the only point I am trying to make.

There are a lot of people with a lot of opinions I try to focus on the ones who have some degree of power, because in my mind they are doing something right.

I feel I have said way more than was needed, in defense of my viewpoints.

I am going to bow out of this thread.

Sorry for rambling so much

From my understanding, enlightenment breaks you out of the cycle of death and rebirth, at least as it pertains to being human. You say this is your ultimate goal. I don't think just any type of supernatural ability is a stepping stone to this goal. This seems to actually be one of the perils of having power. Having power here makes this reality more attractive. You can become more attached to it. Power is ego candy.

The goal of many traditions is to break the cycle of death and rebirth. More often then not they don't place a lot of emphasis on powers. They aren't the highest goal. Not that you can't use them, you just don't want to get attached to using them. Stick to your ultimate goal and you'll get power without chasing it.

By seeking power you are going backwards instead. You are renforcing your ego which is the last thing you want to do if you are planning to go forward.

Siddhis only deviates the spiritual practitioner from the final goal.

Be careful.

Cant someone have abilties without ego, look at wang li ping and all the lamas that do amazing things, gurus are all them egotistic?

Proper cultivation brings these abilities i have been told so how can it be all ego if you cultiavte right you get it anyway?!

I think having these abilities without the ego can be attained and i would love to feel what it feels like to levitate or move objects, do amazing things with the healing power like Master Chang.

Hi Lin,

With all your meditation have you attained any abilities or your teach, could you share some stories?

WYG

From my understanding, once you understand the root of the spiritual side of the equation, you also understand that these powers are trivial byproducts of the path. One can attain powers and become attached to them, but that necessarily seems to limit progress towards the pinnacle.

You know a lot... You know a lot about enlightenment... you know a lot about your 'journey'... you know a lot about the multiverse interpretation... Have you ever considered that knowing is the one thing that's keeping you asleep, dreaming the dream that is 'mwight'?

Have you noticed that 'knowing' is just a form of illusory control? Once you 'know', you can be sure... there is no need to be unsure, confused or even be aware of what you know - because you already know it, it's all under control. Notice how everything you think of spirituality is controlled - I need to be able to sit in deep trance for 10 hours... I need to be in a void... I need to develop gamma brainwaves... I need to be able to demonstrate power - and then I will know I'm enlightened...

Just below the knowing and control - in the gaps between - there is Now - that contains all the universes all the good and all the bad, all the strands of all realities but all at once... to get to Now, you have to let go... then you have to let go of letting go - I suspect the 'knowing' part of you is reading this and thinking "this guy knows nothing - that's exactly what I do already"... another opportunity to let go ...

When you start letting go, really letting go - not letting go in a controlled, tightly scheduled way - but letting go in the same way you would have to let go to allow yourself to fall off the edge of a cliff - when you really let go, you will be presented with what is. And just like everyone else who decides to travel the way you will have to confront all the stuff that is obscuring Now, the stuff that's been buried, that's been suppressed by the part of you that knows... The stuff that you refuse to acknowledge as important for you - grounding, emotional stability, relationships etc. may well become important - I don't know, and neither will you (remember - when letting go, there is nothing to grasp or hold on to...)

To know or to Now - that is the question

Right on FreeForm

You get it. Love to meet up for a beer sometime.

Nothing else needs to be said really. Its all here.

But you will probably go running off looking for it elsewhere

See my earlier post for reference

I had a similar encounter with a guy who was studying business. He told me he wanted to be the head of a large corporation because he wanted the power.

Felt sorry for him. Obviously something went a miss in his life for that to be one of his goals in life. You see life is all transitory and we are all dead pretty quickly. Chasing after illusions whilst missing the beauty around you is nothing but folly.

Well I hoped I had made a distinction between power to control other people, and gain material wealth, and the power to liberate yourself, and help others do the same. I guess I didn't though.

You did, mwight...but in a way, your verbiage exudes (even if subtly) some underlying attachment, and I think that's what these other guys are pointing out.

Enlightenment is about everything rather than something specific... If you're seeking something specific (power) for something specific (healing) then you're moving against the flow of enlightenment - which always leads to everything...

here is also a big element of control coming from the part of you that 'knows' - it doesn't matter what specifically you want power for - whether it's healing and curing the ill or being a deadly martial artist, it's still that small, very limited, knowing part of you that is doing this. It's yet another way for your knowing mind to control your world and keep you in this state of sleep, dreaming the illusion that it creates.

You might notice that you feel a little offended by what I've said... the you that is offended is holding on to all the baggage that you identify with as "I", and all I'm offending is this stuff that this part of you is holding on to... There is another part of you that is radiating infinitely - That's the "I" that can never be offended, because it holds on to nothing specific and embraces everything, that's the part that you've always wanted to re-discover...

MASTERforge - a pint sounds great! (can a pint 'sound'?...)

with all that jiggly liquid motion, how could a pint not sound?

Seeking enlightment is an attachment, seeking the letting go would be an attachment!

Damned if you do and damned if you dont..... Enjoy life and all it has to offer, experience it all brother!!!

Wun Yuen Gong gets it too

Fancy a pint too?

In fact everyone is welcome, lets all go for a pint

Can a pint sound? Does a bear Sh@t in the woods?

,,,

Empowerment rather than power.

Nobody wants to feel as though they have no power, and everybody wants to feel empowered.

When you let go of everything that is "you" the divine remains and experiencing that "power" ends the issue.