Hello Tao Bums,

So this is a question I've been kicking around myself lately, and I'd love to hear others' thoughts on this.

For those of us practicing/pursuing higher-level energy work beyond the physical martial arts, there is this issue in the student community of some people becoming destabilized during the training to the extent of a "psychotic" episode - or perhaps more kindly, getting pushed so seriously off the edge of your "known area", that one loses the ego completely and stops being able to function normally, for a period of time (or even permanently, I have heard in some cases).

Now - if it isn't too severe, it can be a kind of "death before dying" experience, that results in a new stage of awareness along the enlightenment process, but let's be honest, there has got to be a way of going through that that is less traumatic and life-disruptive!

I'm sure it's happened to some of you, or other students you know, or you've gone looking for teachers and found some of these folks who have accomplished a high level of training but became destabilized and have serious problems still. Enough to make you walk away. I know myself, after quite a few years now exploring a number of different lineages, I am now very -shall we say- discerning.

The question for me is - what do you think this is all about? Does this happen in all the lineages? Is it happening more in some than others? Do you think it's due to psychic attack when the fear door gets thrown open too wide, or unresolved trauma incidents, or not enough focus on clearing exercises first, or not enough time meditating before embarking on cultivation exercises, or the teacher's lack of holding a safe space, or 'negs', or karma, or ...something else?

You don't have to mention specific lineages (unless you want to). I'd love to hear what your take is on the subject, because I think it's definitely an issue in the qigong community. At least, I believe it is.


Cheers,
a solitary Taoist hermit (sans lineage)

Could you be a bit more specific? What kinds of psychosis? There are various "qi sicknesses" that resemble psychosis as well as schizophrenia. Some are purposefully induced others are mistakes. Such as if you breath too much qi into your head then the lights become too bright and the walls seem to watch you and pulse as if breathing which is is usually acompanied by paranoia. But thats just an unhealthy version of seeing auras and feeling the universe as alive like it really is.

What specifically are you refering to?

On energetic practices:

Qigong, Neigong and other practices can result in the over stimulation of the mind and lead to anxiety, and panic attacks, manic type euphoria, and sleep-deprivation induced hallucinations. The practitioner needs to be able to ground out this abundance of energy, or gather it up and store in in their lower dan tein.

Some methods on grounding are sitting on earth and feeling the energy being dumped into the earth. Slow deep breathing. Eating a heavy protein meal. Taking a luke warm shower as long as possible, and feeling the energy draining away. Getting a good restful sleep by taking melatonin, and chamomile before bed. Isolating themselves from others until the excess energies are gone from their system.



Please don't take this as an attack, really its just a rant against society.

On enlightenment:

A lot of people think enlightenment one of those things you can try out for the weekend but then go back to work on Monday at your 9-5, and then go bowling on Tuesday, and church on Sunday. We're really talking about fundamentally changing the way we view reality, a complete 180 in paradigm. That isn't something you can achieve and still remain exactly as you were. It's really not a "have your cake and eat it too" scenario.


Enlightenment is a completely new paradigm and mode of being or rather non-being, learning to adjust to it, while still acting normal and functioning according to your previous paradigm (while in the presence of others) isn't going to be easy.




I guess it all boils down to how you define enlightenment.

If you define enlightenment as an expansion of mind, self, ego and consciousness, or elevation to divine status, etc. Then yes there are better ways.

If you view enlightenment as permanent non-dual awareness, awakening from the dream, and the realization of truth, then no there isn't a better way. You can't keep yourself, your ego, your identity, your sense of self, and still be enlightened, Sure maybe you could keep your ego around as perhaps a costume used to interact with the rest of society out of necessity, but its not the same, there is no one behind it.






Everyone says they want the truth, but what if the truth isn't something they would like to hear. What if is scary, and leads to uncharted territory?

The Buddha said verbatim this world is a dream, and we are all asleep. To wake up you must first realize the life your living is a dream. Not many people are willing to do that.

Sometimes people have so called "psychotic" reactions to glimpses of truth, they have as a result of their meditation. 10 minutes of true non-dual awareness would be enough to send most people I know into a serious existential crisis. But that isn't such a bad thing,that is if they really want the truth.


What if the truth means the life they have been living wasn't/isn't real, and the ego and identity they had built up was no more real than a fictional character in a dream.

That just isn't something people want to hear, or much less think about, truth or not. They want something which will make them feel good about themselves, give them purpose and meaning, within the context of what they currently believe to be real. Truth isn't what most people are after, they really want sleeping pills.

If truth and enlightenment are truly what someone seeks, then a so called existential crisis, or "psychotic" break might just be the best thing to ever happen to them.



Rant on psychosis:

Modern day psychiatry is a sham. Any person who belongs to a non-mainstream belief system or lack thereof, runs the risk of being diagnosed with a disorder or illness. Despite the fact this runs completely against the founding principals of our constitution, it is common place and accepted in our society.

Every day across the world, thousands of people that pose no threat to themselves or others, and are perfectly capable of functioning in society are imprisoned and drugged until they are deemed "well". This diagnosis is made by individuals who practice not an objective science, but an art.

There are many people who have been committed for espousing the teachings of the Buddha as actual realizations they themselves had, or in a literal belief (not intellectual) in pantheism, nihilism, nondualism, shamanism or a myriad of other religious or philosophical ideas and concepts. They're incarcerated and drugged, and lost in a legal limbo for the rest of their lives if they don't pretend to "get well".

Some people who refuse to admit their "insanity" are given shock treatments, and strait jacketed in padded rooms. The lobotomy is still a practiced procedure, although now it hides behind the term "psycho-surgery". The long term effects of some of these medicines are horrible, renal failure, Parkinson's, diabetes, and some are extremely neurotoxic.

I am not sure modern day psychiatry is any better than it was in the dark ages, when we preformed trepanation to release the demons from peoples heads.

A persons sanity should only come into question if they are unable to function in society and abide by its laws, and rules, or if they pose a threat to themselves or other people. Unfortunately that isn't the case.



http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hqaptRYjhq4

This is worth watching

Keep adding higher vibrations, and lower vibe stuff dissolves. Some of this is recognizably small pockets of 'junk' - but as you keep going more & more refined you'll find that major portions of your personality structure will give way. It's temporarily yet profoundly disorienting, and an inevitable part of the path. You'll be challenged to build a higher-vibe you, and it goes far beyond normal ideas of "being a better person". If you hang around "fast path" social circles, you'll occasionally hear that insanity is a risk. You start getting into areas of spiritual mechanics, technology, skillful means.

Strategies to help cope:
0. Pace yourself. In the beginning people tend to pedal-to-the-metal, and think that they can endure anything. Chalk it up to youthful enthusiasm. There's also brakes, steering, and easing off the gas - and all that is useful.
1. Experience. Part of this is that you just get used to it.
2. Breathe.
3. Take refuge in emptiness.
4. Take company in a heavenly lineage. A group of ascended enlightend beings that hang out together in a 'heaven'. Such associations add not only power, purity, but organized structure.
5. Internal martial art, to integrate heaven~earth through your physical structure.
6. Bindus.

Some of the above have to do with integrating powers that are bigger than yourself in skillful ways such that they both transcend individuality as well as support cohesive structure.

Hi there,

Yes, I'm familiar with things both of you are talking about here - the "too much energy in the head" condition that can arise anytime during transitions where more energy starts to enter/circulate through the body. I am an acupuncture/TCM/qigong student but I'm particularly focusing these days on trauma and PTSD, and what I'm seeing is that 1) there are a number of people (men and women both) who have PTSD who -as part of their healing-search- end up pursuing qigong, and 2) this frequently leads to debilitating "qi deviations" for these folks (some people recover and keep going, some recover to an extent but get to a point and then don't go any further, and others (haven't met these ones but have just heard anecdotal stories) do not come back from insanity.

I'm starting to make this my personal area of research and expertise - this situation. I've spoken to alot of people - practitioners, masters, sufferers - on the issue. I'm starting to feel that it is a real issue in the qigong community. I'm not just talking about having a bit too much energy in the head and having to ground out. In the case of PTSD, when people get pushed off the edge of the table, as Carlos Castenada puts it, some very serious things can go awry. People get suicidal, or so raw they have to go permanently into retreat, or they can no longer hold down a job and keep the "day-to-day ego" as mwight puts it, functioning at all.

As I understand it, there are ghost points in acupuncture for addressing this type of destabilization and in some lineages, soul retrieval and exorcism practices too, depending on your view of things.

I guess I'm wondering if any of your lineages address this. Do you think there's enough focus on pre-clearing work in your studies. Do you think there is adequate support given to students who get pushed into a state of real crisis? It sounds as though perhaps neither of you have encountered this, so in that case, that's ok too! But if there's anybody here that it resonates with, I'd love to hear what you have to say. I am working on a book and I believe I am going to end up specializing in this area.

aloha -J.

edit: spelling. PS- just read "Trunk's" post too. Have to say that although you folks are addressing the "integrating new levels of awareness while grounding" aspect, which isn't quite what I was getting at, it's all very interesting, and I appreciate reading the things you have to say. - J.

To address the not-exotic sort of trauma, PTSD... some of which I think I can relate to as I've had my own version of this (which I'd rather not write out for the whole www). .. and I've been talking to a friend of mine re: this and the more recent experiments in my process re: hitting and "vibrating the core". That, if you look at a person as a series of layers, like concentric circles, that while experiencing stress we try to "ward off" and endure it as best we can, not allowing it to penetrate too deeply into our physical and energetic selves. When we are over-whelmed, when our defenses (literally) can't bear the stress, then some outter-more layer collapses and the trauma penetrates to inner-more circles of our body. So, over-whelming unbearable trauma can get penetrate to "the core". And we contract around that trauma and wall it off (physically, psychologically, etc.).

How to get to such a deep trauma? Difficult issue. One possible solution, certainly not everything, not necesarily for everyone. As I mentioned (see link above), how I've been doing it recently is activating "rivers" into, through, out of such areas, and then "vibrating the core".

~ later edit ~

Well put. Good topic.

Probably this is why many qigong teachers emphasize relaxation and developing the lower tan tien connection first. So when you move into the higher aspects of consciousness you have a strong anchor in everyday reality.

My limited experience is it's better to go slowly. Even if you are doing the most profound practice that leads to enlightenment in one lifetime what's the point if you can't integratate it into your life?

Of course, once you have already developed qigong pschycosis or kundalini syndrome and moving farther out into la la land that's something else.

That probably comes from a lack of responsibilty on the part of the teacher or student. I remember on the old HT board reading about students who apparently were "losing it" because they did too much or did practices that were too advanced for them.

Of course, let's be realistic we are doing practices that can shake our entire paradigm. Nobody said this would be easy or comfortable. To suddenly have the rug of your reality pulled out from underneath you can probably either be a wonderful, joyous or nightmarish experience depending on where you are at.

As far as I can tell the best thing is to have regular contact with an enlightened(or on the path to that), caring teacher if you are doing energy practices and listen to his/her advice. Without that, it is probably best not to practice or just stick with basic practices that most people agree are safe, like Tai Chi or something.

A good question, and I agree discernment and grounding do get more important the higher you go.

I have heard that you must remain very sober to attain enlightenment.

For a tree can only grow as high as its roots are deep.

So, that's my plan, at least. And so far, I haven't met anyone who's really gone "psychotic," yet. But the problem is that it does become harder to focus on mundane 3rd density matters as your own frequency rises. And there are those who believe that enlightenment often requires a nihilistic relinquishing of personal identity. Both of which can make your time here on Earth far less conventional, at the very least...

Why do you think Buddha said to lose attachments to everything? And when he said everything, he may have meant EVERYTHING.

Hi Jill,

I can tell you that the crisis is very real. It's the experience of facing the dragon, Minotaur, etc., every culture has this, which is essentially your own shadow, false ego, your own karmas that you ultimately have to face consciously and transform. If you'd like to read Rudolf Steiner on this, he calls it the "Guardian of the Threshold," and a detailed description is in his book How to Know Higher Worlds.

And of course this can be devastating and destabilizing when the person is still susceptible to fear and illusion. That's why the natural process allows for a gradually evolving encounter with this "being." We had internalized it, but gradually you come to see it objectively as something separate from your true self, and I can tell you, that encounter can be devastating. And it has to be devastating in a sense, but not destabilizing if approached properly.

The false ego has a very important function, and that should never be underestimated. We need this being just like children need parents to take responsibility for them until they're ready to become autonomous. For a child to be cast out into the world before it's developed would have the same traumatic effect as an adult conronting this shadow being head-on, before they're ready.

I like the image of a silk scarf spread across a thorn bush. If you try to rip the scarf off too fast (get rid of attachments) the scarf will be torn to shreds.

But this confrontation can be an organic, gradual process if done properly.

-Karen

Very interesting description - I will look up the link. I'd like to hear more. Maybe in pm, since I understand the whole public forum issue. Thanks for sharing.

edit: for clarity.


Karen: Steiner is great. "Guardian of the Threshold" reminds me of Robert Bruce. I think it's interesting that some externalize the trauma and create a "dragon" to fight against - not all traditions do this. At any rate, the study of the ways that different schools approach the shadow is always interesting. I haven't read that particular book - will add it to my shelf.