A brief note on how quickly such illusions develop. If one were to, hypothetically have the audacity, to fragment the tao into labels and individuals, then one creates a situation of this and that. Eg. When one calls this a tree and that a whale, now it takes TIME to get from the so called tree to the so called whale. Without name and label everything is here at once, universally. No time. Just now. This is why the masters call it the void. you are very big. Now of course, if one can truly see this reality then one must ask, why do we age if indeed there is no time? The only certainty in life is change, and the options as to how many directions one can change in layman society is the program of age. BUT there are many more options outside of the square box. A persons comfort zone is also that persons solitary confinement. The other options are outside of the square box and ones comfort zone ,( solitary confinement). Anyway , digression has crept in. Regards Wolf.

A story of sorts for you Wolf
(a bit long, maybe?!),
a story true of time.

written clear but for words to be lost
but those with experience
of beginnings and endings
and of the circles of dust
some meanings may be clearer?


Was once in a state of playing
with sameness and separation
A job that if one has "able hands" one does
a job that's a double edged blade

This one was in a state of three
but still was one watching ~seeing, hearing, feeling
being another
sharing selves
and went to a "point" beyond an other's end
A place/space/time "I" wasn't to go
This self got in the way
with emotions questioning
begging answers that are not

The self attracted attention
of another without concept of time
And being the self caused hesitation
a reaction to slow to react
confused by thoughts, emotions, analyzing, questioning
The other not restricted by time moved with speed immeasurable
in an instance "my" guard was up
An instant is a very long period of time, old friend
This one was hit hard
So fast it was thought just a tap
Knowing well it could have been much worse for this child
Not knowing that time would show how hard hit
A strike that continued for months
causing a slow seeping to fill
that was as though a poisoned water
with unexplained chest pains and lungs filling
a drowning while breathing clean air
... and of course leaving Dr.'s confused
and shrugging and prescribing foolishness

The concept of time was "my" own
"my" hesitation, reaction so slow
the others speed,
instantaneous strike that was slowly felt for months
Effects that have been felt for years
Still a concept that binds this one
with the other unaware of such chains existence
Unknowing and unconcerned

The strike also a double edged sword that is still teaching

slowly learning to drop time to reality
but still confused and caught
free falling into and through spider webs
Such sticky stuff!

am still learning.

when it drops
the surprise on others faces
makes me laugh!


So,
What think you Wolf?
Paragraphs are a foolish foolishness
but even much so if you don't use punctuation !
Or to just have fun maybe just limit it
Blur the beginnings and endings!
and wait for folks minds to spin!
LOL!

I Know

I Am

An A_s ! LOL ... but i so enjoy it!


Like the mountains cooling their toes in the sea
with surfers above playing along in the waves!
Also like the idea of your sweet lawnmowers
but wonder ... do they spit ?
Like lamas?
I'm thinkin' all the monks should have some drop spindles!
(for to make wool/yarn!)
But then you may all have to learn to knit?

Stay well,
Shon


Sorry,
This story may not make Any sense at all
for how long it is ???
Not sure?

Thank you
Wolf

Stay well,
Shonton Ga

As someone who is very interested in the amazing similarities between Taoist thought and modern theoretical physics, I wanted to comment on the subject of the illusory nature of time from the perspective of absolute spacetime:

Albert Einstein stated that "since there exists in the four dimensional structure (space-time) no longer any sections which represent "now" objectively, the concepts of happening and becoming are indeed not completely suspended but yet complicated. It appears therefore more natural to think of physical reality as a four dimensional existence, instead of, as hitherto, the evolution of a three dimensional existence." Einstein went on to state that there is not a true division between past and future, but rather a single existence. In other words, the distinction between past, present and future is an illusion.

Since all subjective time is relative depending on the observer's speed through space relative to another observer and their relative position in the universe, there is no objective, absolute time or absolute space as Newton proposed. Instead, since there is no objective "now" due to the relative, subjective observation of space-time, the only thing that is real is the whole of space-time. As theoretical physicist David Bohm stated: "Ultimately, all moments are really one. Therefore now is eternity" Or as theoretical physicist Brian Greene says: "Just as we envision all of space as really being out there, as really existing, we should also envision all of time as really being out there, as really existing too."

And for a different view of the second law of thermodynamics and the nature of order and timelessness go to:

http://www.everythingforever.com/

Hello Zbob. Anything either side of now has to be memory or assumption and both can only be thought of Now. A zillion books wont get you out of now. Out there is one tao. Itself, unmoving yet its contents cannot stop. There were once two young monks arguing over the movement of a flag on a pole. One monk argued that the flag was moving. The other argued that the wind was moving. The old master crept up behind and gave them both a good whack and said " you are both wrong. It is your minds that are moving. Wolf

Hello Shon. Nothing is to long or short, always as a thing should be. In that, is what deserves faith in the tao. Your story is one of the human condition. It makes perfect sense. YES. They spit. But we spit back and laugh with the el pacas, not at them. They may get offended. lol See the life behind you as a tall rigid pole that, which without, you could not sit firmly high and here. Take care Shon Your friend Wolf

Thank you for responding. I am amazed that even "materialistic" science is beginning to discover that the nature and basis of the fabric of reality is timelessness. Unfortunately, however, the materialistic super paradigm of modern science hinders its adherents from the ultimate understanding that the ground of being is consciousness. (as your monk's flag example so perfectly illustrates) But with theoretical physicists such as Amit Goswami at the leading edge of monistic idealistic thought, the super paradigm may eventually fall and be replaced by a scientific view very much in concordance with taoism.

Be bad to offend lawnmowers such as those! ... Glad they're not spit at! LOL.

Thanks Wolf, interesting concept to take into journeying,
not sure of your words but my mind has returned to it through the day.
Puts me in mind of (again? words for it?) "center pole/life tree/spirt spear or sticks"
that are used as an anchor of sorts ?
or as a marker or a path way/door/portal during journeying at times.

Have worked with trees and land in such ways but this brings other images to mind?

Not sure I catch your meaning for sure but thanks
you gave me some to think on!

Stay well,
Shon








Hi Zbob!

Just a note on the side ?

Any questions you have on "Time" can be answered by sitting with a bowl of water!

Sit and drop a little stone into it.

The rings you see are just a VERY small part !

Have fun!

Shon



Think it is Rain who has a great avatar right now to show the rings

Try it

with a Quiet mind

and soft eyes

calm heart

Like to know what you find if anything?

Peace!

Shon

Hey Zbob. Please , THANK YOU. A sharp, deep mind free of paragraphs. The nutrition is in the contents and not in the wrapping. The Tao contains matter and therefor physics. It also contains spirit and therefor mysticism. It contains change and therefor alchemy. If something "IS" it is in the tao. Even illusion, therefor belief and religion. If a thing "isnt" that is in the tao also. Unless there is a brick wall out there deep in space containing the cosmos, it dosnt end. One science will not cover all. On a microcosmic parallel, we need dermatologists for part of our being but also brain surgeons, dentists, etc. None of them are wrong in comparison to the other. A hand is functional because its fingers remain apart to function as one. So too, the tao and its sciences. What thinketh thou Zbob? Regards. Wolf

Hello shon. Sorry for the lack of clarity with the pole thing. It was just a long winded way of saying that everything that has happened in ones life, ( seemingly good or bad), is purely, without exception, what got one here today. If one jot of that life were changed, etc, etc. You know. lol ! Take care. Wolf

Hello Sifu Wolf. Thank you very much for your response to my post. I also believe that the sciences function apart subjectively to function as parts of the One objectively. For there to be a part there must be a whole. Is it also true that for there to be god there must also be no god? And vice versa.
Clearly, modern theoretical physicists have reached the conclusion that mystics have known for millenia: for there to be time (subjective, relative), there also must be timelessness (objective, absolute). (they are contained within each other, although each is a separate part of the whole)
Peace in every moment, zbob

Thank you Shon for your thoughtful response. I also do a mindful "meditation" whereby I allow my perceptions of the leaves of trees blown by the wind to flow through my consciousness without actively perceiving any "time" as my mind is altered by the changes of form. Peace, joy and happiness are the products of this "meditation".
Peace to you, zbob

OhI Like that!

Thank you Zbob


Love the leaves
and the trees!
they were whispering of rain
when i was just outside!
Sounding soft and happy
and almost expectant.


that sounds like a great meditation

Thanks!

Clarity is overrated!
Confusion can be at times more creative
reminded this kid of some stuff
once learned but long time forgotten!
now inspired to try some old techniques, cool enough!

Thanks!

If one jot were changed ...

: )

Tao.

Peace!

Hey Zbob. That was a nice absolute yin yang in a nutshell. Do you like coffee? Regards wolf

Sifu Wolf, I couldn’t help but smile when I saw the discussion about time come full circle from separation in the first post all the way back to yin and yang. For me also, the concepts of time and what I am accustomed to calling the Other, but could just as easily be thought of in terms of yin and yang or separation, are inextricably bound together. Indeed, the only constant in life is change, because one purpose of life is to take advantage of the mires of time in order to make ourselves ready for the timelessness that is its Other. Just as we exist primarily in linear time, so do our Others exist in imaginary time (right, shontonga? ), and not until we unify the yin and the yang within ourselves and know that they are the same will we be free to explore all of creation. Only then will we be qualified to assist in the unfolding of the cosmos. For me, the biggest boundary between my conscious, linear self and my unconscious, non-linear Other has been my desire to comprehend and be in control. We each have our own ways of sequestering ourselves within a limited reality because we are all different parts of a cosmos—or tao—that expresses its limitless self with the progression through time from singularity to infinite expansiveness. Even the things that keep us chained in time are beautiful to me because they are art of this inexorable process.

LOL, LOVE IT!
inexorable? (inexorable='s impossible to stop or prevent!)
Your avatar is whip~tastic!
fantastically frozen in time !

Imagined time,HaHah! Yup.
Grew up calling it "indian time"(no offense to any!) for the work done in it.
could also be called artists time, meditators time,
it's like being in the "zone" and the way
time can slow or speed as needed.
Time is a concept we imagined to try to measure
but as of yet our ways of measuring still don't work so reliably, I'm thinking!

Nice to meet you Jacksquat!

Stay well!
Shon