Ordinary person is a self-closed system, generally they could not accept the things spiritual. To open to the spiritual world, you must open a door on your closed circle first. Payment is just the open sesame, it also suggests that you give your heart to the Tao. If one says I love the Tao, but actually he would not like to pay a dollar, we know he is not sincere obviously.
On the other hand, as we know, to achieve a high level of internal cultivation, one must have a very good virtue, otherwise, he/she will not be able to bear the great energy from the Tao. It is a great virtue to support the genuine cultivators, so payment or donation is also necessary for your virtue.
During the past 20 years, I have paid more than100,000CNY for learning the Tao. Of course, till now, what I gained are already much more than what I paid.

Li Jiong, donation that comes from the heart out of compassion and profound gratitude for one's teacher is beautiful thing. Proper teachings and cultivation will unavoidably produce such virtuous behavior. Such genuine virtue arises without asking.

Payment for a teacher's time is an understood aspect of the modern age. We all understand time is money.

But paying to open the door to the spiritual world - that's complete nonsense and it's just dishonest. I feel sorry for you and anyone who buys, literally, into your Xiao Dao teachings.

“修持之人，始也不悟大道，而欲于速成。形如搞木，心若死灰，神识内守，一志不散。定中以出阴神，乃清灵之鬼，非纯阳之仙。以其一志阴灵不散，故曰鬼仙。虽曰仙，其实鬼也。古今崇释之徒，用功到此，乃曰得道，诚可笑也。”

I wish you well, sincerely, I hope you find the great way. If you need money or want compensation for your time, just be honest, but don't create this foolishness about some spiritual toll.

not related to any style or system


i think there is payment required for learning
but not all the time it is money....



Franklin

I have someone I learn from time to time. I actually found him online. He says he has opened up his 3rd eye, crown, and achieved union with god. He has seen the white light and golden lights. I don't pay him any money and I've been learning from him for over a year now. Thats just me, but he may charge other people.

I think the reason he doesn't charge me is because he doesn't see me as his student. I was simply inquiring about something and the subject turned to tao and since then I've been learning from him.

I honestly believe if a person is the real deal and has achieved immortality or close to it, he should not charge people to learn from him. He of course will understand human suffering and Karma. If people choose to give him money or donate, then I think that is better, but I do not believe he should request payment.

It is those that have not achieved success in the practice that will charge people. It is those people that have only obtained a certain level, say level 4 and want to charge people.

John Chang never charged his students, yet his students go out and charge other people who want to learn now, because they think they deserve it after the costs for flying to indonesia to train.

In my mind, there is desire to have power and wealth! This is only for those that do not have it.

Well i think Li Jong and David Verdasi could be related!

When people become monks and Taoist ordained in there temples is there a fee, or when you become a monk in the temple all the information is free. The Buddhist libraries and temples give away free books on spirituality!

Ape

Do you know you are talking about something you don't know?
I never feel shame that I chagre money for my teaching, and I did mention this fact more than once.
I know your level exactly now, this is my last reply to you, now I know you are not the one i am waiting for.


I agree.
When my teacher gave me the anthropomorphous Heshouwu, he didn't refer to money at all.

anthropomorphous Heshouwu, what is that?

I think Verdasi might have some level of knowledge, but its no secret, in my mind. The secret is already out there. Go find it. We have more resources today at our feet than even some monks in cambodia who have no internet access or libraries. He charges ridiculous fees... $7000 USD per course. Thats not even including airfare and hotel. Together its more like 10K per course. Thats a lot of money. I think he should lower the costs so more people can afford to learn if he really knows something. Plus, I don't even think the money should go to him, at least the majority. Most of it should go to charity or non-profit organization for the Tao.

I'm pretty sure most of the time its all free. When you become a monk, you do work to help the
temple though, not for any particular person. If a monk writes a book, most likely the money will
be to help the temple expand.

A kind of chinese medicinal root (Radix Polygoni Multiflori) that may, like any other root, at times grow in the shape of a human body.
That's one of the many common "fake" products sold nowadays in China and even the 'real' ones are simply standard roots with another shape, nothing medicinally special apart from its shape.

http://images.google.com.hk/images?um=1&am...G=Search+Images



YM

These are the signs that he has achieved the third step, still very far away from Yang Shen state.

Surely? So if I wanted to buy your course you'd turn me away?

Li Jiong, the problem is, your answers as to why you charge (and to many other things) have been completely inconsistent. First you said it was out of fairness to your students who have already paid. Then you said you needed money. Now you say money is the spiritual "open sesame". So what's the real reason?

And what's this "I know your level exactly now...now I know you are not the one i am waiting for"? I guess that's supposed to hurt my feelings but I rather wonder what took you so long, enlightened as you are? Funny thing, for as unenlightened as I am, I knew you weren't for me from your very first post here.

Nevertheless, even a pianzi deserves compassion. Honestly, good luck seeking the Da Dao.

Thanks for the information.
The one I got was not such fake things. About two years ago, we walked on a mountain, my teaher found that, and pulled it out to me, and said I would need it soon. It looked through the ages, not like the puffiness ones showed in the picture.

Interesting looking herb, what do they do for you Li Jong?

I soaked it into liqueur, about a year later, I achieved the sixth step, formed my own small Xuanji Matrix. My teacher said it was the time to drink it. I drank all the liqueur within 3 days, and praticed all the time in these days. I saw gallant scene of Xiantian Qi (we can call it negative mass matter too) first, everytime when I closed my eyes, I saw these light points flow nicely around by body, they strengthened my Xuanji Matrix rapidly. To the third day, suddenly, I saw there was a baby in my Dantian, and later, it rised up slowly, and went out from my crown. And then, I feel my body disappeared, there is just a colours baby on the sky. Didn't know how many time passed, the nice baby alighted from the sky slowly, and then I could feel my body again. When I opened my eyes, it was very dark outside, it was late at night already, I remembered that I started practice at dusk.

Incrediable sounded like a hallucination without drugs or the herb created this?

Fake. That legend has been going around for many centuries:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mandrake_(plant)


That Chinese woman has let the root grow into a container with that shape, lol! Old trick.


Real mandrake root:

not the herb:





YM

I know it is my spiritual baby, from that day on, I can feel the baby anytime, and everyday, I let my spiritual baby go out my body once.
Of course, you can take it as a hallucination, it doesn't matter.

Knowledge is free. Spirituality is free. The Tao does not judge one as virtuous or non-virtuous. How did Buddha become enlightened? By paying people? No!

I realize that organizations and people need funding to survive but it should be out of respect - not with the expectation that if I pay someone I will receive enlightenment or some 'secret' method. I find it very condescending to suggest that one is not sincere in their practice if they do not pay large sums of money. The Tao is available to all - regardless of monetary wealth.

There is a guru within each of us that doesn't charge a dime. There are hundreds of free resources online that don't charge either but have the sincere goal of helping others towards Truth.

At a minimum, this post creates discord and pulls people away from the path. I will be using the 'block/ignore' feature on this forum more often when I see pan handlers trying to swindle people. This is the very reason I left the Christian church when I was younger. Please stop or you may drive others away as well.

I would be carefull with mandrake (and other plants of the same family).

Well then, maybe L Ron had it right, if payment is needed to "open the spirit world":
http://www.xenu.net/archive/prices.html

Of course, one must wonder, if payment is "required" how did the first human pay, and who?

Nothing is realy free!
To seek for the Tao, Sakyamuni gave up hissuperior living, this is also a payment.
Yes, there are many free resources online, but do you know any of them have achieved a high level? None! they all failed or will fail.
You feel unhappy to read this thread that is because the truth I said offended your greed. Perhaps you are still not grown enough to understand "Nothing is realy free!"
At last, if you want to leave, go away please, who cares?

Giving up his standard of living is not payment. It is giving up attachment.
You can not be a good student and have time to seek wealth. They
are opposites. Its either one or the other.

It is only the realized person who understands that wealth is an illusion. Seek only
as much as you need to live happily poor.

I disagree. If your teacher believes you are meant to learn the path, he will teach you
without asking for money. My teacher believes I found him because I was meant to
find him.

Even Buddha gave up his palace to find the TAO... He could end up being king, but he
would not be the buddha would he.





Wow... This scientology institutions is making some serious bucks off stupid people. Most
of these people choose not to find the path on themselves, yet let others choose for them.
I guess maybe they will learn in the next re-incarnation.

WE are not the greedy one's. You keep asking for payments.
All of my knowledge and experience I pass on freely to sincere seekers because I know of the benefits it will have. I ask for NOTHING in return.
Hopefully you may see the error of your ways and find the right path.

It's nothing wrong with asking money for services, including spiritual services/teachings. My teacher didn't ask for money, people donated money to him. I won't either for teachings or healing. But still, if someone complains about an $80 fee for a potentially good method, then I don't know what to say.... Maybe choose a teaching that doesn't charge any money.

I don't think it's right to ask for money or to charge for certain lessons.

Now if people decide to support you and show thanks, that's fine. You didn't ask for it, but they decide to show you thanks, I think that's pretty legit... but it's not like the guy asked for it or demanded payment, and of course it should be accepted with humility and the like.

But seriously, if people want to know something that I know, I tell them. I'm not a master. I'm not a guru. I'm not an immortal. If somebody needs help I'll help them. If I'm really so great and wise and all knowing, I can find a way to make some quick cash without having to exploit people who are on a spiritual journey. Goes 10x for the real masters out there.

If they have such a fine grasp of the world's workings and humanity, they can definitely get what they need to support themselves without having to say, "the spiritual road is hard and to show your willingness you must pay 49.95 USD for an hour and a half session..."

As for free online resources: they're great.

The truth is out there. People have been speaking the truth for ages. But KNOWING the truth and ACTING the truth are two different things. I can sit here and talk about virtue and humility and I'd be perfectly correct in my speech, but then I turn around and... I dunno... smoke something.

But my smoking something or my not having actually become enlightened doesn't mean that someone else can't follow the messages of my words and find something worthwhile in their lives. The Buddha had lots of teachers. Maybe some were more enlightened than others, but each one helped him gain a new step and a new understanding. Ultimately it is up to the INDIVIDUAL and NOT how far along the teacher is.

Now as for the Buddha's "payment"... him sacrificing his riches can be see as "payment" and saying that spiritual is "not free", but that's YOUR perspective on looking at it.

"One man's trash is another man's treasure."

The Buddha gave up something he thought was unimportant. He really couldn't care less. Spirituality was more important, so it didn't matter that he had less clothes to wear and less food to eat. Reaching enlightenment was more important. Just like an athlete who enjoys running and runs all the time, a non-athlete may say, "oh but running is so hard and is not fun at all that guy is giving up hours of his time that he could spend doing stuff that I do like watching tv!"

But the athlete doesn't look at it that way. You're making the error of imposing YOUR perspective on someone else.

So just something to think about...

Actually I must strongly disagree with this. Wealth, in my opinion, is a natural expression of living a healthy, wholesome life.

Someone who knows how to manage their own internal affairs naturally manages external affairs expediently and wealth naturally follows.

i don't see a problem with someone charging. we'll pay $300 for a new phone or an ipod but we won't pay ~$100 for a teaching that can potentially liberate us; make any sense?

buddha had the life, women, money, everything so yes it was a sort of payment that he gave it all up. most of us on this board don't have half of what he had and we can't give even that up (or complain if we do).

as others have said, if you think spiritual teachings should be free go seek out a free method, such as a vipassana retreat or AYP but don't degrade other teachers because they (rightfully) decide to request payment.

Sacrifice is not the same as exchanging currency - he did not pay someone nor did he charge anyone. He gave up his plentiful lifestyle... he didn't keep it and try to get more of it.

To say that all others will / have failed is pride and ignorance. Do you know every person on this earth? Sri Ramana Maharishi and a second generation disciple, Paramahamsa Nithyananda have both achieved 'a high level' and offer their teachings for free in .pdf documents or on youTube. They also present the OPTION of buying materials or going to seminars but all of the core teachings are available for free.

I find it quite ironic that you're purporting 'your truth' as offending my greed. Who's charging for spirituality again? Asking another seeker to go away is far from trying to help spread truth. I have not even asked you to go away - perhaps some of the responses will give you new insights.

Good luck in your business. I'll go on my way freely and continue along my path - like everyone else - without needing to spend a penny. Wisdom is within, available to all, just as it was freely available to Sakyamuni.

About wealth... it is not good nor bad and one can live in bliss and still have a 9-5. In fact, I believe it's in the Platform Sutra that eludes to not locking oneself in a cave but living life and obtaining wisdom in tandem.

Sincerely, all the best with your work.

I agree ... I believe the underlying issue here is the manner in which Li Jiong is asking:

~ Xuanji matrix is the ultimate of all spiritual paths and all Taoist paths find their origin with Xuanji matrix
~ Only through Li Jiong's course can we hope of achieving true spiritual enlightenment
~ All other paths are second rate and take 45 yrs whilst Li Jiong claims that by purchasing his course we can achieve the immortalisation of our Yang Shen in just a few years
~ Any one who questions his unproven claims or are unwilling to pay his fee are unworthy of being saved in the upcoming, also unproven, some day, one day, armageddon.

Sounds like another religion that I am not always to fond of

Now being in sales and marketing myself, if I received such a backlash of negative sentiment that is pouring Li Jiong's way then I would seriously requestion my approach.

So Li Jiong ... for professional marketing and sales consultancy I charge $150 per hour, but I will give you some free advice. Your market is saying that your approach with this stinks ....

LISTEN TO YOUR MARKET AND CHANGE YOUR APPROACH !!!

By all rights your course may be excellent ... but you have destroyed all chances of me purchasing it because you have handled your approach so poorly.

And please, don't do your normal thing of condemning me to the "you're not the one I'm waiting for" list just because I am taking a contrary point of view to yourself.

You are standing up as a leader, good for you !!! I admire anyone who is willing to stick their neck out and have a go. But as a leader you have to remember that being able to take corrective feedback from your peers is one of the most vital qualities you can possess.

Thank you for your understanding, mantis!
Everything has the cause, I think I have explained the cause of charging clearly. On one hand, somehow I just need money; on the other hand, for the students, it is necessary to pay for the teaching.
Of course, if someone would like to offer free teaching, that's his freedom; if some would like to take free course, that are also their freedom. I respect everyone's freedom, I have nothing against them.

Actually, as far as the teachings go, the people in the FreeZone (people who use Scientology "Tech" without the church hierarchy) seem to get a lot out of them. It isn't as if L Ron had no training, he did spend time with the OTO and claimed to have spent time with other spiritual teachers. There is even a document (that the FreeZone cites as their precedent) where he claimed that he was trying to keep the teachings available cheap/free (though this was likely just as much a scam as anything else).
Bottome line is the people have experiences using Scientology methods, if you look at their higher teachings lots of similar effects are claimed as you hear "masters" of many lines claim. Ex. Tom Cruise's claim that he hasn't been sick, not even a cold, for as long as he can remember since "attaining" the higher OT levels. One of the OT "powers" is supposedly control over MEST (matter, energy, space and time) giving freedom from sickness. Others include communing with "thetans" attached to ones body, spiritually travelling, stopping negative energy attacks from others etc. Who is to say that their expensive training is any more of a scam than a less popular expensive training if the higher up students make equivalent claims (slight sarcasm here, everyone here should know how "evil" the CoS is, if not check out Xenu.net). This is one good reason that some spiritual teachers have sworn off accepting money for teaching, that way, anyone from the poorest to the richest can learn if they work, if they do the work, they are worthy and the teacher can't be accused of scamming the students.

Not everybody here has a nice phone or an ipod...



Again, one man's trash is another man's treasure.

You can't always put a value on what others have, and you can't always judge how others value their own possessions. My friend loves computer programming and is quite good at it, so when I tried my hand at computer programming and put random things in random places, he just cringed every time he saw my programs... I didn't see anything wrong with them, sure they weren't the BEST, but at least they got the job done... sufficed to say he was aghast at how I had managed to "maul" the program

So to someone who doesn't value material wealth, the loss of all the wealth in the world won't matter, just like someone who doesn't know much about computer programming will never understand the difference between one jargon term and the next



I'm not on the boat of degrading teachers, or degrading people. I am on the boat of being critical and thinking about ideas (though not necessarily passing judgment just... talking about it...)

I find it odd that one can speak about and "preach", if you will, about certain virtues and the need to do certain things, but then turn around and demand an opposite. There are plenty of ways of making money without having to resort to your spiritual teachings.

It's kind of the same with martial arts... there are plenty of mainstream teachers out there with commercial schools that can't teach you how to fight your way out of a paper bag. But there are mainstream schools that teach you good techniques... at quite the hefty price.

But there are also plenty of schools out there whose head teacher has a different full time job, and runs the school separately. They're not commercial, and don't charge exorbitant amounts of money... sometimes the money really only covers paying the rent/upkeep for the building that the school is in, and the teacher hardly pockets any of it. Those schools don't get by on a name. They get by on the legitimacy and efficiency of their teachings.

Sure, they can teach the same effective techniques, charge hundreds of dollars for a 6 month to 1 year plan, and have a much bigger school but... they don't....

The price doesn't really affect what the teachings you get are but.. it's just something to think about when a teacher says, "I want to teach martial arts so everyone can defend themselves in a potentially dangerous situation, so people can live happy and safe lives with this martial art which is quite accessible to anyone", but then turns around and charges several hundred dollars for a 6th month contract that you must pay before he teaches you anything.... and it's the same kind of thing to think about with spirituality and cultivation.

It's not that the techniques aren't necessarily ineffective (though one should always be on the lookout for frauds!), but it's... you know... what kind of person are you learning from?

Though again, like I said in a previous post, the actions of the individual teacher won't necessarily affect the truth of what he's telling you, it's just something to think about...

Just for the record, not all of us will pay $300 for a phone or ipod : )

A perfect pair of matching hands !



YM

it was an example; people will pay for what they feel is worth paying for. i don't know why spirituality has to be free when it's the one thing people should value the most, as it's whats supposed to liberate you. in ancient egypt people would work their ass off and usually live meager lives so they could buy the book of the dead (which cost a fortune, according to the documentary i saw) to ensure a good after life.

i find it incredible people are trying to imagine what it was like for the buddha to give up his lifestyle and turn into an ascetic; unless you have already given up all your attachments you simply can't comment on that and are purely speculating.

also, i believe, and i hope someone with a greater understanding can clarify this for me, that the chinese (traditionally) didn't view money the same way we do. in another thread it was stated that some chinese farmers had to work for years to be able to raise the money to attend one of Wang Liping's seminars. if you value something you'll pay for it, as simple as that.

Some people are not happy about money being charged.

Others are not happy about being told this is the 'ultimate' system and if you ignore this you are ****ed, especially when the end of the world comes about.

Some are not happy about both of the above.

My strategy for dealing with this? At no charge I shall reveal it in all its glory!

Get on with your life and do what you feel is right and brings you peace.

Best,

Mike

The comment wasn't meant as a jab, it just needed to be said.

As for paying what something is worth, sure, that is true. However, if you are an "enlightenend being" trying to lift you fellow entities out of samsara, it seems that one would wish to make it so that the poor hard working farmers (who by definition work harder and are likely more humble than a rich business owner) would have access to ones teachings as simply and easily as a rich guy who can simply afford it. Buddha may have given up a lot, but only his statues and later priests got rich from his teachings. How much do you think Buddha charged the crowd when he held up the lotus? Also, a note on Egyptian practices, if memory serves, very few people in Egyptian society actually possessed a BotD, it was a priestly "tool" and instruction for the people, but more importantly for the pharoh. People who could afford sarcophagi were often buried with a piece of the Book of Breathings, but it was more important to ensure that your heart was light enough so it wouldn't outweigh the feather of Maat.

Yeah, I used to kind of think that if you want something good you should be prepared to pay. You know, you get what you paid for.

When I first started learning martial arts, I found several schools that were big, said they had good quality instruction, that they taught the skills necessary for self defense, yadda yadda yadda. I dished out hundreds of dollars because the cheapest payment plan they had was for a 6th month contract. It was going well. My 6 months were up. I paid for another 6 months. Shortly thereafter something happened, and something seriously bad almost happened to me. You know what saved me? The free stuff I found on the internet. You know what almost got my messed up? Yeah, the hundreds of dollars worth of martial arts teaching.

I found another school that charged $30 a month to have enough to rent out a building, but taught effective techniques... after making the rounds through every high charging school in 3 cities.

I view spiritual teachings in the same light as I view martial arts teachings: if you have something to teach that is genuine, and you have a genuine desire to help people, you're not going to charge. Maybe you'll get lucky and find something that really works for you even if it costs exorbitant amounts of money... but I've learned that you don't always get what you pay for.

And, you know... the top dollar technique is not the best in quality. Also, you know what's VERY interesting... I've read stories about how students had to pay lots of money to learn from great martial artists, but you know what the funny thing was? They weren't paying all that money over the years to the TEACHERS, they were paying it for TRANSPORT. Bus fare, train fare, taxi fare, to and back from the teacher's residence over the course of years.

Then that person turns around and is like, "I had to pay tons of money for my teacher to teach me, now you must pay me to teach you." Uh... yyyyyeeeaaaahhhhh... riiight... that's not really the same thing....

So, again, if you've found something that works for you, great... but for those of us who have been on the other side of the spectrum, someone can claim up and down that they can't just hand out secrets for free, that you need to pay money to "show your true devotion", but you know... well... I for one am not going to "buy into that" (hehe )

sloppy zhang,

i don't think you signing up for a mcdojo has anything to do with paying for spiritual teachings. $98 for a course isn't exactly a ton of money.

peace

Actually, it does.

Not everyone who says they have something worth paying money for actually do.

It's even worse when they say things like, "paying money shows that you are dedicated."

Ugh. I'm not even going to describe how that makes me feel... it's pathetic, really, honestly.

What amount of money is proper to charge depends on how the money is being used and where it is going. A little money can be going to a good place, or a lot of money can be going to a bad place. Again, it's up to you. If you think that you are getting returns that are greater than your investments and that you have found something that works, more power to you.

But that doesn't mean that it's good to have an attitude of: "paying for a teaching shows respect" or "you can't just hand out teachings for free" or "people spend money on so many worthless things, why not spend money on worthwhile things?" or any of those.

There are phony martial artists just as there are phony gurus that use those lines to keep people in payment plans. The people run on their hamster wheel and the teacher runs to the bank. So I will reiterate: if you've found a genuine teacher and you really think that you handing over money so that the teacher can pocket it is getting you somewhere, more power to you, but that doesn't mean everyone everywhere will get more quality teachings if they pay more quality cash.

Buddha absolutely had the life. But giving it up was no form of payment.

Buddha had everything, and though he had everything, he still didn't have what he sought. He knew everywhere enlightenment wasn't. And so he know where it was. Beyond things. He had the life and the life was empty. He traded hollow trash for the universe's greatest treasure. The act wasn't payment, it was waste disposal.



Payment is fine. But why lie about it? If my teacher needs money, that right there evokes my compassion. Even if they don't I want to pay them back. It's human nature to return a favor. These gifts are just a physical shell for the real sentiment. And I think it's beautiful. Because the truth is, you do pass such a spiritual threshold when you give from the heart. But this can't be requested from you. It has to come from you.

No one told the Buddha, "give up your wealth and I'll give you enlightenment." That's laughable.

hello

it seems you all keep indirectly mentioning Li Jiong [why lie about it reference], when there are thousands of gurus that request a form of payment.

No one told the Buddha, "give up your wealth and I'll give you enlightenment." That's laughable.

no one on this board has said the above, either.

Mantis this is because Li Jiong started this thread and says payment is necessary. Use your common sense. I sincerely do not believe he would contribute to taobums if he could not make any money off us, I could be wrong but this is what my intuition tells me from reading his statements.

again not talking about any specific teacher or method
----------------------------

i think people are taking a very limited view of what payment is

even is we look at the monetary aspect of payment- we can ask our selves how do we get money
most of us trade our time by preforming duties and tasks for others in exchange for money

so in a way to get the money you pay with your time

and once you get the money then you can buy things like food and such
or you can trade it for things instruction or other people's time and knowledge

basically everything is an exchange (or a form of payment)

---------------------

i think the catch is if you put a price on a teaching then it becomes worth something in people's eyes.. it has a certain value- and as such people expect a return on their hard earned money
i think this aspect of payment for teaching is wrong for a number of reasons
1-the value is not in the teaching itself but what you gain from it- this aspect is not guaranteed as there are many factors in attainment- but it is implied that this attainment part is what you are purchasing- when in reality it is not this part but the teachings themselves which may or may not lead to any attainment for various reasons
2- many people have very deep issues with the concept of money and worth
etc. etc.....


now the other side of this is that if someone is cultivating full time and offering teachings - they need to be supported somehow- or else they will not have the time to cultivate and develop understanding- and teach and understand how to teach...

so how should these people be supported?- charge for teachings?
if they have a day job they might not be the best teacher they can be
not many people have the opportunity to become monks now a days so that road is out for most

and what should they charge?



----------------------


back to my original point- i think payment is necessary just not monetarily

like it's said- if you want to get good at martial arts you have to pay with your blood, sweat, and tears
its a payment - just it does not have a dollar equivalent...

if you get into things like cultivation then the problem becomes even larger because the motivation behind learning and teaching such things has to be evaluated
why is someone seeking teaching
why is someone seeking to teach
the motivation for each can be very genuine or it can be very convoluted...

when mixed with money it becomes even more convoluted...


then the question is what is the solution

it probably is as simple as following nature and sitting in stillness


franklin

If you find a great teacher and they say quack like a duck, you should quack. If they say rub mud on your belly don't argue or intellectualize, rub. Don't sweat the details its the big teachings and actual practice that matter.

If they want money thats also fine, a true teacher is priceless and owed great respect and leeway.

I tend to think the guru who preaches my way or hell, my way or you're too ignorant to be worthy..is not the teacher for me.

I'm sure Li Jiong's teachings and techniques are extremely valuable, but his hard sell marketing (not the price which I consider low) is a turn off. Also, it maybe a language translation issue, but his writing doesn't come off as particularly enlightened to me. I've been around the block long enough not to look for western stereotypes, but there is a level of attachment shown in his writing that seems less cultivated.



Michael

yes I think the real payment is with your time and effort put into your practice and this decides how much you receive from the practice.

I for one am not trying to imply one person in particular, rather I am identifying the type of person for whom I hold a certain opinion... whether or not anyone here sees that they fit into a type, or whether or not someone attributes my words to another person here is entirely their issue

I agree, those exact words have never been said.

But what is the underlying message when someone says, "these are very high level teachings and I cannot just hand them out to anyone, that is why you must buy them."

Um... well... I see a LOT of things wrong with that statement.

First and foremost: not everyone who has the money to spend is necessarily deserving of instruction anyway! Just because someone has the extra $50, $100, or $200+ to give to you for the teaching doesn't mean that they're going to follow your teachings intently. That doesn't mean that they will take what they learn to heart and practice it constantly in their daily lives. That doesn't mean that they are any more dedicated than the guy who works all day to support his family and doesn't have that type of cash just lying around.

Also, the dollar value of a teaching does not have any indicator of the quality of the message! I can just as easily go around charging money to learn the "secrets of the universe", then whenever someone asks me a question I can just paraphrase the Tao Te Ching and the Bible! If someone asks me why I charge, I can just as easily say, "I have to make sure you are dedicated" or "I just can't teach anybody."

There's no correlation, in my eyes, between a SPIRITUAL teaching and PHYSICAL money. You cannot possibly stick a dollar value on just the right words said at the right time to the right person. And consumers cannot possibly think that they will receive an authentic message from an authentic teacher just because they are paying lots of money.

Talk about apples and oranges!



I agree that there are different types of payment, but like I said, the money type of payment that a lot of people ask for is very different from the spiritual teachings that they receive.

Certainly words such as, "follow my teachings and live those teachings in every moment of your life" talk about payment. As payment for what you received you must act on it, as opposed to just going out and doing whatever you feel like doing, or whatever you used to do. But again, that payment is different than money payment which is different from spiritual teachings.

It just can't compare.

First let me say, knowledge is usually free, but the quality of knowledge or instructions is not always free. Its like going to a community college and ivy league school. You can't compare.

If you decide to pay for instruction, be careful who you trust.